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Erin Burnett Outfront
Punishable By Death": Trump Accuses Dems Of "Seditious Behavior"; New Polls Show Dire Warning Signs For Trump On Economy; Trump Signs Epstein Files Bill, 29 Days Left To Release Docs. Aired 7- 8p ET
Aired November 20, 2025 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[19:00:25]
ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:
The breaking news, key Republicans splitting from Trump tonight, distancing themselves from his threatening Democrats with charges punishable by death. One of the Democrats Trump is targeting is OUTFRONT tonight.
And a new bombshell report on Americas biggest bank and Jeffrey Epstein. We're following the money.
And a CNN exclusive tonight, ISIS rising. How the slashing of USAID has left the terror group virtually unchecked in a very specific place.
Let's go OUTFRONT.
(MUSIC)
BURNETT: And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.
OUTFRONT tonight, punishable by death. More Republicans tonight taking issue with that threat from President Trump in response to a video which was released by six Democrats. Now, these six Democrats are military veterans. And in the video they put out, they urged U.S. troops and intelligence officers to defy any unlawful commands.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Our laws are clear. You can refuse illegal orders.
SEN. ELISSA SLOTKIN (D-MI): You can refuse illegal orders.
REP. CHRIS DELUZIO (D-PA): You must refuse illegal orders.
SLOTKIN: No one has to carry out orders that violate the law.
REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Or our Constitution.
SLOTKIN: We need you to stand up for our laws.
DELUZIO: Our constitution.
KELLY: And who we are as Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Now, it's unclear what specifically led them to post this video right now, right in the first place. We don't know, or what orders if they're referring to anything specifically that they are referring to in that video.
But in a moment, we'll get some answers to those questions. I'm going to speak to one of the Democrats in that video, Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan.
But Trump's response to the video was swift. He said, "This is really bad and dangerous to our country. Their words cannot be allowed to stand." And then he went in all caps, seditious behavior from traitors. Three exclamation points. Lock them up. President DJT.
Roughly an hour later, that post was followed up with this all caps, "Seditious behavior", then "punishable by death".
Now, at this hour, it is that that was the bridge too far. Several top Republicans are taking issue with it, distancing themselves from death threats over a video. The comments coming in one after the other.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The words that the president chose are not the ones that I would use. Okay? Obviously, I don't think that this is -- these are crimes punishable by death or any of that.
REPORTER: Did he go too far? Saying punishable by death?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): I think they went too far, though. Yeah, I think that's over the top.
SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): I don't think it's a really a good idea to talk about jailing your political opponents or hanging them or whatever else.
REPORTER: What do you think of the president saying that these Democratic lawmakers are guilty of, you know, sedition?
REP. DON BACON (R-NE): It's a -- it's a -- it's a -- it's inappropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: But when the White House was asked about Trump's response, right about punishable by death, their response was obviously very different.
Here is Karoline Leavitt.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Just to be clear, does the president want to execute members of Congress?
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No. Let's be clear about what the president is responding to. You have sitting members of the United States Congress who conspired together to orchestrate a video message to members of the United States military to active duty service members, to members of the national security apparatus, encouraging them to defy the president's lawful orders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Okay, just to be very clear there, what she said at the end is absolutely false. Whatever you may think of what the video, what Democrats should or shouldn't have said, they did not say that, that members of the military should refuse lawful orders. They in fact, specifically said that they should refuse illegal orders.
But core MAGA influencers are running with this. Far right activist, Laura Loomer, Trump's ear and highly influential in the MAGA world, responded tonight Trump isp is right. That's the type of Justice Americans want to see. Justice, I guess referring to punishable by death.
Kristen Holmes is OUTFRONT live at the White House.
Now, Kristen, what I just played there, though, was key Republicans, right? Some key Republicans. You had Speaker Johnson, you had Senator Graham distancing themselves from Trump on this, making it very clear that they are not okay with the language he used with the use of the word death.
Will the White House walk this back?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: We have no indication of that, Erin. And I do want to note Speaker Johnson -- yes, he did say, tried to distance himself a little bit, but at one point he said that he thought Democrats were being wildly inappropriate. Still, having President Trump's back when it came to these comments, even if he slightly, slightly edged away from it there.
Now, there were questions that were posed to Karoline and specifically around the idea that Republicans have continued to say that it's Democrats who are inciting violence and political violence, specifically, and that question was deflected. It was turned into the media only cares about what the Democrats are, what the Republicans are doing. They don't care about what the Democrats did.
And it goes back to what you played there. That clip from Karoline Leavitt, this idea that the White House is continuing to say that these lawmakers were trying to get servicemen and women members of the intelligence committee to defy orders, to defy orders, particularly from the commander in chief, to go around what they called the chain of command. But as you noted, and as you played in the video, they specifically
say and likely with reason over and over again, that this is all about orders that are illegal or that break the law. This isn't about defying commands at any turn. So, it doesn't seem as though the White House is going to walk this back at all.
Again, they turn this into a -- the Democrats are wrong. They are saying essentially be insubordinate to the commander in chief. And we have no indication that President Trump is going to. And just to make clear, you showed some of those posts or you talked about some of those posts, there were 16 posts at one point that were either like retreats or truce about this issue in a row, talking about sedition is punishable by death, and this could be crimes and -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I mean, he was clearly fixated on this. It wasn't just one post which also gives the indication why would they walk it back now? They have --
BURNETT: Right.
HOLMES: They have the primary commander in chief saying this nowhere to go.
BURNETT: Yeah, I mean, as you make that point so clear, 16 posts.
Kristen, thank you from the White House.
And I do as promised now want to go to someone who knows the answers to a lot of these questions, one of the Democratic lawmakers Trump accused of sedition, Congresswoman Chrissy Houlahan. She is an Air Force veteran.
And, Congresswoman, I really appreciate your time.
So, I guess let's just start with where we are right now. Sixteen posts from the president. One of them, seditious behavior punishable by death, referring to your video, the press secretary has denied Trump's calling for the execution of you and other members of Congress. Do you believe her?
REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): Well, you know, to start with, I never in a million years thought I'd be talking to you tonight about the fact that the president of the United States has called for my death by hanging, for sedition and treason, and called for it because I and a number of other people published a video that says, you have to follow the law, and the law says, don't follow unlawful orders.
So it's hard for me not to believe what she is saying and what the president is saying, because he has a history of saying what he wants to do and doing it. And so, it's really almost impossible to say that you can walk this back at this point in time. His intent is clear, and it validates why we were concerned to begin with. He has proven the point.
BURNETT: You know, I was also sharing what Laura Loomer had said, right, when she was supporting that this is the sort of justice that people want. Are you concerned about your safety right now?
HOLMES: You know, pretty much every day, walking to work and being in this job, you have to know that this job is not the safest job. So, of course, every day, I come to work knowing that I'm in a -- in a position of vulnerability. But I come to work knowing that I'm here for the right reasons.
And again, this is another confirmation for me that even though I may feel unsafe and I'm worried for my family and my team, I'm doing the right thing. I'm trying to protect this really precious thing that we have, which is our democracy and our republic.
BURNETT: So a moment ago, I played Speaker Mike Johnson, who is distancing himself from parts of what Trump said, and I wanted to play something else that he said specifically, congresswoman, about the video that you put out.
Here's the speaker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: That was wildly inappropriate. It is very dangerous. You have leading members of Congress telling troops to disobey orders. I think that's unprecedented in American history. I know young soldiers, airmen, sailors they don't need that kind of nonsense from people in Congress. It is very dangerous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Congressman, what do you say to him? I mean, he obviously takes out the word illegal. He says you have leading members of congress telling troops to disobey orders. What do you say to the speaker?
HOULAHAN: Yeah, it's yet another instance of my disappointment, my grave disappointment with the speaker of the House and the way that he's conducted himself. Here he is saying what is completely contrary.
The people who serve us, the men and women who serve us, whether they are junior enlisted or senior officers, they are all aware of this Code of Military Conduct. They are all aware and trained in the very facts that we presented to them. Nothing is new in the video that we presented.
And to try to imply that they are too young to hear this, or too naive to hear this, or were too inexperienced to project this message is ridiculous.
BURNETT: So, let me ask you specifically then, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which, as you were saying, all members of the military should be familiar with, right? It explicitly states, congresswoman, that members of the military must follow only lawful orders, right? So that's in their existing code of honor and conduct. So I'm curious as to why you and others like Senator Kelly there, why you chose to put this video out now, if that's already in the military code or if there is something specific that you have seen happen that made you think you needed to do this.
HOULAHAN: And this, yeah, this seems to be everybody's, you know, question of the moment. This wasn't, you know, in response to any one event, but rather sort of a piling up of events and occurrences over the last ten or so months, we've seen hundreds of examples of President Trump's orders being questioned by the courts and hundreds of examples of those being ruled, sometimes by Trump's judges themselves, that they are unlawful.
And so, there wasn't any one thing in the past that we were talking about. We were largely aiming ourselves at the future to remind people in uniform of their obligation and responsibility to the Constitution, and not to the president.
BURNETT: Okay, so you're saying you -- you know, they would know this, but you wanted to remind them of it and also that others were aware of it, who had who obviously are veterans like yourself.
But let me ask you about what Jack Reed said, the Democratic senator, because he is the top Democrat on armed services. He said he likes your idea in principle. Okay. So he's not criticizing, but he did say something important. He said the issue on a practical sense to me is that determination referring to lawfulness is often very difficult to make.
Are you concerned that putting a video out like this could cause confusion?
HOULAHAN: Yeah.
BURNETT: And deeply problematic confusion for some?
HOULAHAN: Absolutely. And this is why, you know, our training matters. And the time that we spend learning about this and questioning ourselves before were put into that position of trying to figure out which way is up is important. And what I would say is that he's pointing out something important, which is this is murky.
You have a responsibility as a young, as a person who's taking an order to if you have a question with it, to question your commander, if you have still a question with it to go up your chain of command, you also have an opportunity to go to the JAG if you have a question as well. Unfortunately, this administration has eliminated hundreds of JAG positions.
And then you also have the ability to be a whistleblower if you think it's that extreme. And in no way are we saying that we can be in the lives of the people who are making these hard choices every day. We are just reminding them. You told us that the Code of Justice says that they have to obey legal orders. They also are lawfully obliged to disobey unlawful orders as well.
BURNETT: All right. Well, Congresswoman Houlahan, I appreciate your time and thank you so much.
HOULAHAN: Thanks for having me. BURNETT: And next, J.D. Vance breaking with Trump on the economy
tonight, admitting there is a lot of work to do.
And breaking news, the administration suffering a major setback in court. Now, this just happening development here late. A federal judge is blocking Trump's deployment of National Guard troops to Washington, D.C. It's a hugely significant development. So we've got that breaking.
And an OUTFRONT update tonight. We were there for the emotional moment when the American citizen, who had been held in Saudi Arabia for years, reunited with his family in the United States this morning, a story we've been following for years. It was an incredible moment. You'll see it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:17:55]
BURNETT: Vice President J.D. Vance is breaking from President Trump tonight on this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We get it. And we hear you. And we know that there's a lot of work to do. And the thing that I would ask for the American people is a little bit of patience.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: A lot of work to do. Those words may not sound like a lot, but they are a lot when it comes to distancing himself from Trump. Trump on the economy, asking for patience. Because what we have heard from the president himself is very different. He continues to insist that America's economy is booming.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Can you just answer that question that tariffs have led to inflation, they have led to an increase in cost of living inflation?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have no inflation. We have no inflation. We have no inflation.
We have the hottest economy we've ever had. Prices are coming down and all of that stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Okay. That's just not the reality. Americas economy is struggling. If you look at the Fed's beige book recently, you could have up to 80 percent of the United States already in a recession right now. And Americans are experiencing prices that are rising, continue to rise, and they certainly feel that they have risen.
A new poll, in fact, shows that 75 percent of Americans say that grocery prices have gone up in the past six months, only 12 percent say they have gone down. And perception is reality when it comes to the economy. A new "Reuters"/Ipsos poll shows Trump's overall approval rating at 38 percent, the lowest so far of his second term. And that's just one of at least five polls in recent days showing Trump at his lowest approval rating.
OUTFRONT now, Harry Enten, Xochitl. Hinojosa and Bill Kristol.
So, Harry, look, when I say perception is reality when it comes to the economy, that then translates directly to people's feelings about politics and who is in charge, in the case of Trump.
Okay, how does this break down when you look at Trump's own party in the Republican Party, how do they see him?
HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: You know, this isn't just about overall, it's about Republicans, as you say. And the floor, I'm starting to see some cracks in that floor, hasn't fallen through yet, but there are clear -- clear cracks.
What are we talking about? Well, just look at the change since January in Trump's overall approval rating among Republicans. You see it down 22 points since January.
[19:20:02]
That is a clear drop in the net approval rating among Republicans.
And the question is why? What's going on? What is driving that?
Well, you heard the vice president of the United States talk about the economy. You know, they say it's the economy, stupid. That's James Carville. I'll say it's the economy, smarty pants to you, Erin Burnett.
And what we see is if we look at Trump's change in his net approval rating and we just look at since March, if we look at it since March, what do we see in terms of inflation? What do we see in terms of immigration.
Look at this. You see it here. You see it 27-point drop. You see a 19- point drop. These are the types of drops what we're talking about here are the types of things that could end up really eating away at Trump's presidency.
BURNETT: Right. Because it comes from the base. And, Bill, I guess that brings me to J.D. Vance. What J.D. Vance said -- I mean, frankly, pretty tepid in the in the scheme of things. But pretty big in the scheme of J.D. Vance and Trump.
We get it. And we hear you, and we know there's a lot of work to do. Like I said, it may sound tepid, but it is polar opposite from Trump. We have no inflation. We have the hottest economy we've ever had.
What's the significance of Vance, Bill? BILL KRISTOL, EDITOR AT LARGE, THE BULWARK: Yeah, I agree, I agree, Erin, it is actually significant in a normal administration, different people say slightly different things, and you don't think that much of it, the kind of loyalty Trump demands that has gotten, and Vance desperately, I think, trying to stay, you know, just cheek by jowl with Trump, no sign of no sign of any break. He's nervous that Trump will get annoyed at him if he thinks Trump -- if Trump thinks -- Vance thinks Trump is a lame duck. You know what I mean?
So, it's very -- it struck me also that Vance to say this, it's a reflection, as Harry says, the fact that, as you said, that the economy is slowing, that Trump's approval on the economy is going down. You put those two things together and an ambitious politician like Vance thinks, you know, I can't be just tied to Trump here on the economy. I've got to show that I'm a little more in touch. I see what the problems are. I feel people's pain and so forth.
And incidentally, Vance says they have some economists at the White House, and they can read outside sources about where things are going. This tells me that Vance thinks it's going to get worse before it gets better. I don't think Vance says this. If he thinks we're pulling out of this in 2 or 3 weeks, right. What's the point of annoying Trump? Trump? I think Vance might have a pretty good sense that were going to the real numbers on the economy, as I say, might, might, might be slowing further.
BURNETT: Yeah, they might. And, Xochitl, I guess I'm also curious when Harry goes through these approval ratings. Right? Those that's voters. That's the real -- the real power. Okay.
But that power then gets reflected by what we see in Washington and in Congress. We have recently seen four Republicans for six months sat there and stood up to Trump on the Epstein files. And then all of a sudden, it was every single Republican but one in all of Washington. I mean, that is a tsunami like we've never seen before. They turned on him. They forced his hand. He had to sign the bill.
The filibuster, you saw senators say, were not going to do that because one day the other party might be in power. And this isn't a good idea. He wanted -- he wanted them to get rid of the filibuster.
So, this is pretty stunning what we're seeing. Sean Davis, obviously staunch conservative chief executive of a pro-Trump outlet, "The Federalist", called out Trump by name on the economy and said, you cannot have a viable country or future when half your country and all its young people are locked out of the economy.
He goes on to talk about home affordability and costs. So, Xochitl, is Trump vulnerable right now? Do you connect the two things Republicans standing up to him in congress for the first time with this broad economic duress?
XOCHITL HINOJOSA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah I do, and you talked about -- we just heard about the cracks in his support for Trump. There's also cracks in the MAGA base and in the Republican Party. And I think the big thing here, and what you heard from Vance is Vance
is the one likely getting the calls from Republicans in Congress saying, what are we going to do about the economy? We just lost these elections in Virginia and in New Jersey, which we invested in. And the polling does not look good for the midterm elections. And that is why they are trying to rig the redistricting.
And so, Vance is taking likely taking the incoming. He is a former senator. He has a lot of friends on the Hill right now who are likely calling him and telling him we have to do something about the economy. We have to talk about the cost of living, but that is the 2026 problem.
The 2028 problem for J.D. Vance is similar to the Kamala Harris problem, which Kamala Harris at the time, you know, we saw that one big regret of hers was not distancing herself from Joe Biden and finding something that she could disagree with Joe Biden with what will be the thing that J.D. Vance disagrees with Donald Trump with and not alienate the MAGA base? And so that will be interesting to see how far Vance is trying to go, how far he will go in order to potentially try to get elected in 2028.
BURNETT: Well, Harry, when you talk about what all of this is about, right. It's not just Republicans, its independents, right? And what are they going to do? They are the kingmakers. You know, you got to have MAGA if you're going to win as a Republican. But you can't just have MAGA.
[19:25:00]
So where do independents stand?
ENTEN: Yeah. You know, MAGA helps you win a primary, but then you got to go and win a general election, right? And independents are the name of the game. And if there are cracks in Donald Trump's MAGA floor, he is in freefall among independents.
I mean, look at this change in t the net approval rating since January. We're talking about down 41 points since January. I was looking at a slew of polls. You can see him especially among independents. His net approval ratings running at like minus 50 points at this point.
BURNETT: And that's -- I mean, just historic that, that's massive, right? I mean --
ENTEN: You can't win -- you can't win elections with those types of numbers. You're cooked.
BURNETT: So, Bill Kristol, that brings me to Marjorie Taylor Greene, right, who stood up to Trump on obviously Epstein. Okay? And then which one of the most epic and bizarre blow ups I think anyone's ever seen in politics. We still don't know why Trump chose to do what he did.
But one of her main reasons was to say, look, I believe in MAGA. This is what she said. But I -- you are not doing MAGA, you are doing other stuff. You are doing foreign affairs. You're not putting America first.
Today, the images from Trump were meeting with freed Israeli hostages and their families yesterday. Of course, the U.S.-Saudi investment forum. Tuesday, the Saudi crown prince. Monday, It was a meeting regarding the FIFA World Cup.
And obviously, foreign policy matters. Whatever you think of his choices here or not, I'm just making a general statement. But clearly, people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, who is as MAGA as it gets, said, enough of this. Is it going to matter?
KRISTOL: To be fair to Marjorie Taylor Greene, I think she actually cares about the Epstein victims and was infuriated that Trump doesn't care about them.
BURNETT: Yes, she does.
KRISTOL: So, I mean, the actual reality of the Epstein situation is important, not just the -- you know, that it was a MAGA talking point, so to speak.
But I agree on foreign policy, I would say it's less the foreign policy and more the Trump seems when he meets with these foreign leaders, MBS being most notable. It's all about him. He's cutting deals. He's allegedly getting investments. They're not real, but whatever.
But what he really is getting is deals for himself, his family and his cronies. And, you know, my colleague Sarah Longwell found this in the focus groups recently. People think they believe Trump when they said he was that he would watch out for them. Remember Hillary Clinton in 2016 there for her. And he had that great moment for him at the convention where he said, I'm for you.
And I think what's happening here is people think Trump's doing all these things. He likes doing things. He's knocking down the East Wing of the White House because he wants to build his Donald J. Trump ballroom, and he's cutting deals for his himself and his family. Whatever happened to us?
And then when you put it together with looking a little out of touch with what's happening to real people in the real economy, then you get the combination that I think leads both Vance and Marjorie Taylor Greene to say, wait a second.
BURNETT: Xochitl, they say, wait a second, but do they really walk.?
HINOJOSA: And I think that's the hard part for really J.D. Vance. He will likely face a very tough primary heading into 2028, and he is going to have to he's going to have to consolidate the MAGA base and the Trump supporters. He will need Donald Trump in order to win that primary.
And so, he is in a much more a harder position than anyone else in the Republican Party right now. So, it will be interesting to see how far MAGA lets him actually separate and distance himself from Donald Trump. But to the point that that was just made, it's independents.
Independents is what will decide the 2028 election. And if J.D. Vance can't get there, then he doesn't win.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you all very much.
And next, we've got a new report about America's biggest bank and its ties to Jeffrey Epstein. Just out, and an exclusive CNN investigation where we'll show you how Trump's cuts to USAID are actually allowing ISIS to massively expand in one very specific and important place, an exclusive report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:33:35]
BURNETT: Tonight, the clock is ticking for Donald Trump. His Justice Department has 29 days to release the Epstein files.
This as Democratic Senator Ron Wyden is now calling on Trump's DOJ and Congress to investigate whether JPMorgan Chase intentionally underreported more than $1 billion in suspicious transactions by Epstein. That's a lot of money.
Barry Levine and Stacy Schneider are both OUTFRONT.
There's a lot to talk about, Stacy, here on the developments. I want to start with 30-day deadline. Obviously, they should have been prepared on the first day of this administration to release all of these files because they said they were going to do that. So technically, we're on day 300 and whatever. Okay. Or 200.
But they now have this formal clock tick, and 29 days is a lot -- is a long time actually. What do you think happens?
STACY SCHNEIDER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, a couple of things are going to happen. They're going to cherry pick through the file. They're going to use the three excuses that they have, which is one ongoing investigation that was just ordered because Trump directed Pam Bondi on Friday to investigate Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, Reid Hoffman. So they'll say, we're going to section out these portion of the files for ongoing investigation. Then if a member of the administration turns up in the files, even in an innocent way, but it's embarrassing. They can claim executive privilege. We don't have to release that.
And then there's a provision in the law that anything that's classified doesn't have to be released. So, what's stopping them from classifying certain documents? And we don't know what's really in there.
[19:35:01]
We don't know what we don't know. So, we're not going to really know. BURNETT: Yes. So, we really don't what's not there, right?
SCHNEIDER: Right, exactly.
BURNETT: If you don't know the totality.
SCHNEIDER: Barry, I guess people raise these points, Stacy saying, and then -- and then someone will say to me, okay, but there were 100 FBI agents who were involved. There were people who ran the investigation. There are so many people who know different pieces of this, that were they to try to exclude or cherry pick, to use a charitable description of what some people think could happen here, right, that there would be whistleblowers.
Do you think so?
BARRY LEVINE, AUTHOR, "THE SPIDER": Listen, Erin, I think we're going to see actual documents and material. I learned tonight that we're going to see, hopefully see any immunity deals that were made. We're going to see internal communication about whom to charge or investigate. We're going to see notes written by FBI agents, transcripts of witness interviews, the autopsy report, of course. Let's hope all that does come true.
BURNETT: That's a lot.
LEVINE: It is a lot, yes.
BURNETT: Anything about videos?
LEVINE: Well, they're holding back any videos that show sexual abuse. Certainly. And that we should not see that material. However, there's other videos in the possession and still photos that hopefully we will see.
BURNETT: Well, and also, I want to be clear, no one's suggesting that you would need would see the woman, but if there is a picture, if there's a man in a video and that leads you to identify that man doing that act, the public would want to know. But no?
LEVINE: We're told we're not going to see any individuals who are engaging in sexual abuse with any of the -- any of the underage girls.
BURNETT: What does that mean, then, Stacy, for holding those individuals to account for the sexual abuse of minors?
SCHNEIDER: Well, first of all, there's a glaring inconsistency here that, you know, has been obfuscated. In July of this year, the FBI and the DOJ combined, under Pam Bondi, came out with their public memo that said, we thoroughly scoured the Epstein files. They even said we looked in locked drawers and cabinets for any missing information, and there was literally -- this is their statement. There was no evidence uncovered that would warrant an investigation into any third parties.
So, now, we have the government investigating third parties in a file when they've already cleared every single third party, potentially in the files. That doesn't match. It's unbalanced and it's going to fall on to Pam Bondi.
BURNETT: But also Barry doesn't match with reality in the sense that we know that there were other men who did things that they shouldn't have done, so they're essentially saying that that's just not something they can do anything about or they're not going to charge.
But when you go through this list, because this is the first I've heard of this is really important. You're going through what you think we're going to get --
LEVINE: Yes, what we're supposed to get.
BURNETT: Tell me what -- what we're supposed, okay, so I want to ask a second what that means. We won't get. We just made the point videos. It's a big deal, right? But what do we get from that? That could change things from the list you just gave?
LEVINE: Well, I think -- I think we need to see. And Representative Thomas Massie has said there are 19 men who he was told took part in sex trafficking by Jeffrey Epstein.
Let's see the witness reports. Let's see the transcripts. Let's see the any immunity deals related to any of these men and see, in fact, what did the FBI and the DOJ actually do to investigate the claims made by these survivors? And, were they able to corroborate any of that information?
And, you know, what? If it shows that men got away with this, then there's a cover up taking place and we need to know why this has happened.
BURNETT: Because this should be very clear. The victims have said they want the files out there. They want the truth. They say there are more men. We know there are more men. We don't know who they are. We don't know -- what we know, right? So, to say something other, you know, other than that is ridiculous. But yet -- yet, here we are.
SCHNEIDER: Here we are. Theres also a strange thing going on. Also, Epstein was charged with sex trafficking. It's a federal crime. You have to cross state lines.
So is it possible that there are other unnamed, uncharged individuals in the file who committed some kind of act with a minor that's illegal as a state charge, but they may not have committed the federal charge of sex trafficking, which is traveling over state lines, being engaged with underage women or sex trafficking.
BURNETT: And that should fall to the DOJ?
SCHNEIDER: That's -- would fall to the DOJ. So, it's very convoluted. And there's a lot of distractions here. We don't really know what's coming out. And I want to add one point. The emails that just got released earlier came from the state. Right.
BURNETT: Right. SCHNEIDER: And that's we don't know that the subpoena that went from
the House Oversight Committee to the Epstein estate asked for the same information that the government subpoenaed in its original investigation of Epstein before 2019. They might not even match. So, again, we don't know what we're looking for.
BURNETT: And, Barry, when it comes to photographic or video or whatever evidence of wrongdoing, yes, one would imagine that the estate might have access to some of that as well.
[19:40:01]
LEVINE: Listen, Erin, I was shocked to learn just a few years ago, the estate found under in their own investigation many videos of apparently child abuse, child pornography that apparently the FBI did not have and the estate turned that material over. So, you know, who knows how much material is still out there? And, Senator Ron Wyden, who's going down the financial road, he says that the Treasury Department has all different, you know, new documents related to the financials that he has not seen yet. So, there's material all over the place.
BURNETT: It's incredible. It's incredible to think about that. Just the sheer sort of in a sense, mass and disorganization even at this point that, that that implies what you just said.
All right. Thank you both so very much.
And next, the breaking news. And it is significant. A federal judge tonight ordering Trump to stop deploying national guard troops to Washington, D.C., a judge calling the move illegal. So, we've got the breaking news on that. What it exactly means on the ground right now.
And this exclusive CNN investigation of how the cuts to USAID are giving fuel to ISIS in a very specific and important place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:45:24]
BURNETT: Breaking news a federal judge tonight ordering President Trump to immediately end his three-month long deployment of national guard troops to Washington, D.C.
In a blistering decision, the judge ruling Trump's deployment of 2,000 troops is illegal, declaring that the president has no authority to send forces, quote, for the deterrence of crime. It comes as the Supreme Court is about to issue its own high-stakes ruling on Trump's deployment of the National Guard to Chicago, along with federal appeals courts in Portland and Los Angeles. And it's a really important tipping point.
Ryan Goodman is with me now.
So, Ryan, how significant is the D.C. ruling that just came out first? RYAN GOODMAN, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL AT DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE: It's
significant. At one level, it's just a rebuke against the president that he cannot use the national guard in D.C. to fight crime. And that's small fry in a certain sense, but it's also a big message for at the national level, because the judge also says that he cannot send in National Guard from other states without the local authority's consent. So, that applies --
BURNETT: Portland and L.A., and Chicago, all of them.
GOODMAN: Absolutely. And the president has recently said, look, I can actually if I want to invoke the Insurrection Act, you people make me do this, and the courts are going to just let me do it. And the judge has a statement in the opinion that I think goes beyond what the opinion needed to say is in speaking directly to the judge, says, quote, "The president wields a powerful tool under title ten of the insurrection act that expansive Title X authority, however, is limited by equally strong restraints," end quote.
And that, I think, is sending a sign of the courts are going to also police that.
BURNETT: Five cities National Guard Trump has called up, every case, of course, there's court challenges going on right now. So, you talk about this big ruling tonight. Where does it stand overall?
GOODMAN: He's losing. I mean it's not a straight across the board loss, but something like four out of five cases. And I think the Supreme Court is already signaling that they want an off ramp. And there's a way in which they're going to be able to decide the case by just saying he didn't go through the right process when he federalized the guard.
BURNETT: So that is obviously hugely significant. Now, the mortgage fraud investigation into Democratic Senator Adam Schiff. There's a big development there at the DOJ. They're investigating it. They're investigating their own handling of it. Apparently, that investigation to Schiff has been led by obviously, Ed Martin and Bill Pulte, Trump appointees. Bill Pulte has been this is what he's been doing looking into mortgage fraud. But only by Democrats at this point.
Sources tell CNN that investigators are looking into whether there was a person who worked for either Pulte or Martin, but wasn't properly deputized for whatever didn't go through the formal process the correct way.
And Martin said that the A.G. Bondi is okay -- she's okay with how they're handling it. Here's how he put it.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ED MARTIN, SPECIAL ATTORNEY FOR MORTGATE FRAUD: Attorney General Bondi has been fearless in encouraging me, like she knows I'm a lunatic, like a wild man. So, and she's -- she's keep going, keep going.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BURNETT: So, referring to himself as a wild man. Okay? But what do you make of what's going on here with this Adam Schiff and the DOJ?
GOODMAN: I take him at his word. He's acting like, maybe, like, a little bit of a lunatic in a wild man, if the reporting is correct, which is that they are, in fact, investigating him criminally for also doing things like potentially sharing grand jury secret information with people who are not authorized to receive it. If he did that, there's a lot of pressure on the Justice Department to investigate and clean house, because the courts would look heavily, unfavorably on somebody inside the DOJ breaking grand jury secrecy.
So, I can imagine that's maybe what's behind this, because it is so unusual investigating themselves.
BURNETT: Right. I mean, in fact, it might be -- it might be a first.
GOODMAN: It's a first. It's certainly a first for this administration.
BURNETT: Yeah.
GOODMAN: Like it's a "what just happened here" moment. There are other administrations in which it would be normal, in fact, if somebody did something that illegal.
BURNETT: Oh, absolutely. But in this administration.
GOODMAN: Absolutely. And it's also in this administration unusual, like how are they investigating him criminally, but he's not actually suspended or on leave? You know, that's one of the unusual parts of it.
BURNETT: All right. Well, I mean, just I guess were at the very early innings of this, but crucial.
Thanks so much, Ryan.
And next, an exclusive CNN investigation reveals ISIS is exploding in size because of cuts to USAID.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[19:53:30]
BURNETT: Breaking news, ISIS rising. A new exclusive CNN investigation revealing a very dangerous consequence of Trump's USAID cuts.
And Nick Paton Walsh is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It looks like a place where nothing should go wrong. But ISIS are seeing a resurgence across Africa, home to two thirds of their global violence this year, rising fast here in northern Mozambique.
We land in the flashpoint of Mocimboa da Praia, seven weeks after ISIS started their worst offensive since they occupied the town in 2021. The government's grip is so shaky they've let Rwandan forces in to be the real muscle on streets where ISIS seemed to rule the night.
WALSH: So, USAID contribution to Mozambique amounted to about 3 percent of its GDP, and that U.S. aid money helped the economy here, development schools, really enabled the government to try and promote its hold on the place. And so now, that money suddenly vanished -- well, they're reeling here. And ISIS are back.
WALSH (voice-over): The little video we have of ISIS recent onslaught is terrifying. Outgunning Mozambican forces, slaughtering captives.
But in October, they tried something new, less savage and confident. They walked unopposed, armed in stolen uniforms, straight into this mosque in Mocimboa coastal fishing community to deliver a manifesto.
[19:55:05]
The crowd didn't flee, but instead filmed when ISIS arrived, asked for the keys and walked in wearing their boots. The imam had presumed they were soldiers.
WALSH: What did you think on that night when these guys came in?
SUMALI ISSA, IMAM: They ordered the old man, asking for the microphone to broadcast their voices.
When they displayed their banner like this, I was surprised that they are Al-Shabab (ISIS).
WALSH: It is extraordinary. After all these years of ISIS has spread across the Middle East to stand in startling, to stand in a place where they had freedom of movement, just a couple of days ago.
WALSH (voice-over): Ninety-three thousand people around this area fled in just six weeks after ISIS attacks began on September the 7th. Rafael takes us directly to the home of his brother-in-law, now abandoned. They were not rich and also took USAID.
RAFAEL NDINENGO, SON KILLED BY ISIS: He was tied up, they took a stick and beat him. They cut off his head and put it on his bottom. This place you see here is where we laid my son's spilled blood.
You are going to make me cry because of my son. My son -- I lost him. My feelings for my son -- you're going to make me cry. I didn't want to come here. He was calling me "papa", "papa".
WALSH: Eight men killed by ISIS, seven of them beheaded, some in front of their families and you just for looking around -- I mean, there's nobody here. It's startling. This used to be a vibrant area, Christian area. WALSH (voice-over): The money USAID spent here urgently tried to curb
the spread of ISIS, they gave $50,000 here to help motorcycle taxi drivers vulnerable to recruitment by ISIS, improve their working conditions with paperwork, vests and helmets. Their anger about that help suddenly disappearing and then asked asking questions clear.
WALSH: Emotions incredibly high here. I mean, it's all about peoples livelihoods, really. And a lot of anger.
WALSH (voice-over): The man who ran the project describes how it is the only way to stop ISIS
KHAMISSA FABIAO, PROJECT COORDINATOR: If they have an opportunity to earn money, I don't think they will go into the jungle because nobody wants to die. When we started this project, I personally recruited many young people to keep them integrated into society. President Trump should have a heart.
WALSH (voice-over): Fishermen, the main workforce here, but also a source of ISIS recruits. We visit a USAID project aimed at giving them a better livelihood now shut.
Ten thousand new arrivals in this camp alone were met with a steep drop in food aid.
SAVIANA NDIWICA, VILLAGER: They come and immediately start shooting. There is war. Beheaded. You flee with nothing. They come and cut your throat. When you see someone else being killed, you flee alone to a safe place. Since we arrived here, we sleep on the floor.
WALSH (voice-over): But Mozambique could be rich. Around the town of Palma, shielded by these fortifications, it's clear that while the Trump administration is stripping away aid here, its also investing fast and hard. A $4.7 billion loan in March in vast liquid natural gas facilities, a contradiction where wealth is held up by a wave of ISIS savagery, which surged after the USAID meant to calm it, vanished.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Mocimboa da Praia, Mozambique.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BURNETT: And finally, tonight, an incredible OUTFRONT update on a story that we have been following for years, along with you. Saad Almadi, American, 75 years old, who was held by Saudi Arabia for four years over tweets, he tweets, he posted online is back on U.S. soil, an incredible moment.
Our camera was there this morning at the airport in Philadelphia to capture the moment that Almadi walked through the arrivals gate, holding his son's hand, visibly emotional.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IBRAHIM ALMADI, SON OF U.S. CITIZEN JUST RELEASED BY SAUDI ARABIA: I can celebrate the Thanksgiving with my father now after the last four years being separated for only tweets, for just tweets. And I highly value that. The U.S. government support to us here in the States or even in Riyadh, while keeping my father safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Of course, to feel emotional just to see his father's face.
Almadi had been sentenced to 16 years in prison in 2022, in Saudi Arabia for about a dozen mild tweets he posted online criticizing things like tax policy. One mentioned Khashoggi. He learned that he could leave as President Trump was hosting the Saudi crown prince at the White House.
Now, Ibrahim has been on this program multiple times to plead for his father's release. And he says that his father will be going to the White House next week to meet President Trump.
Thanks for joining us.
AC360 starts now.
