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Erin Burnett Outfront

U.S. Navy Secretary Ousted Amid Blockade, Iran Says It Seized 2 Ships; Judge Blocks New Map; CNN Epstein Investigation. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired April 22, 2026 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:27]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Breaking news, the secretary of the United States Navy is out. Given the ultimatum, resign or be fired. A sudden announcement as Trump's war with Iran rages on, on the sea.

Plus, breaking news. A judge just putting a halt on Virginia's new congressional map as Republicans blame their own party for the major loss at the polls.

And Epstein's victims say it wasn't just Epstein who abused them, it was other men, too. So, what are investigators doing about it?

A CNN investigation first OUTFRONT.

Let's go OUTFRONT.

(MUSIC)

BURNETT: And good evening. I'm Erin Burnett.

And OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news, the secretary of the U.S. navy is out as Trump's war with Iran enters day 54, the surprise announcement coming just moments ago from the Pentagon. Multiple sources telling CNN that there were tensions for months between John Phelan and the Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth.

Phelan was then told at this moment during the war, resign or be fired. And I mentioned during the war. I mean, this is a major move at a shocking time. This is the secretary of the navy, and the U.S. Navy right now is 15 ships in the Middle East, with most enforcing the biggest blockade by the United States since World War Two.

Phelan's sudden departure coming as it comes, as we have new video tonight from Iranian state media purportedly showing soldiers seizing container ships in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran says it seized two ships, which came just days after Trump declared, quote, "Iran has agreed to never close the Strait of Hormuz again. It will no longer be used as a weapon against the world."

Well, obviously that's not the case. As for Trump's blockade on CNBC yesterday, Trump called it a great success. Now it is causing a lot of pressure on Iran. That is a reality. But we did just obtain data from cargo tracking firm Vortexa, which

was first reported by the financial times. And this is really important context because what the data shows is that at least 35 tankers with links to Iran have bypassed the U.S. blockade since it started. Now, there, including any Iranian linked vessels that are moving cargo out of the Persian Gulf.

The "FT" notes that at least six of those ships were confirmed to be carrying crude oil. And then they did the math. The oil on those ships, even with a very hefty discount, because its Iranian oil right now, would give Iran just shy of $1 billion in revenue, which is a massive lifeline.

Now, CENTCOM tonight is denying these reports. So, it's unclear if -- Vortexa is the creme de la creme of shipping tracking. It is important to note, though that even if these vessels all left theoretically, they could be apprehended by the United States later. Under the terms of the blockade.

As for Trump, he's telling Fox News right now that there is no time pressure around a ceasefire or new talks with Iran, which of course throws into question credibility. This is the same person who days ago threatened to knock out every single power plant and every single bridge in Iran. That's a quote.

He told Fox News, if they don't sign this deal, the whole country is going to get blown up. And of course, we all remember the April 7th post where he said, a whole civilization will die tonight.

But even as Trump now says, there is no time pressure. That is not the case for Americans and frankly, civilians all around the world. In the United States, gas prices are up 27 percent from a year ago. Airline prices are about to surge, too, and flights are getting cut.

United Airlines announced it will raise fares as much as 20 percent this summer. And this is just the beginning. Even if the war ends now.

Kristen Holmes is OUTFRONT, live from the White House to begin our coverage.

And, Kristen, what are you learning? Obviously, as we said, you think about the scale of this blockade and what the United States navy is doing right now. Suddenly, the secretary of the Navy out with a resign or be fired.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. That's right. Obviously not good for the secretary of the Navy. And we're learning some new reporting. You mentioned some of this, which is this idea that there was tension between Pete Hegseth and Phelan, a lot of it stemming from Hegseth wanting him to be quicker, thinking it was too slow on ship reform.

But there's another part of this that I think is key, and this is what is always key in a Trump White House, which is proximity to power, and the reason being that Hegseth was annoyed by Phelan because Phelan would go directly to President Trump. Now, remember this, Phelan was not somebody with military experience.

He was a donor. He and his wife had raised millions of dollars for President Trump. He had a personal relationship with President Trump.

And in Trump's White House administrative, the even the top branches of government, the top cabinet officials know that the closer you are and the direct line to Donald Trump that gives you all of the power. So, Hegseth felt like Phelan was going around him, having these direct conversations with President Trump.

Now, we're still not entirely sure what option that Phelan went with, whether he resigned or was fired. But of course, we know now he was ousted after these personal tensions amid this ongoing war where the Navy is a central component.

BURNETT: I mean, it's -- it is obviously incredible timing. Kristen, thank you very much.

Everyone is here with me. General Mark Schwartz, let me just start with you, because you spent so much of your military career in the Middle East with special forces.

So, you know, the context of this, Phelan out all this with a resign or be fired as the reporting is suddenly in the midst of this massive blockade, at least 15 ships involved in it. I mean, how what is the impact of something like that at the secretary of the navy at a moment like this?

LT. GEN. MARK SCHWARTZ (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think the impact is greater from, you know, an outsiders view of, like you said, the secretary, the Navy secretary being removed during a time of war down at CENTCOM level and certainly below that in terms of operations day to day in the Gulf in the CENTCOM area of responsibility, not as big of an impact.

But I think the uptick, certainly for our enemies, Iran seeing this, just like they saw the ousting of the army chief of staff a couple of weeks ago, I think has an impact in terms of how there's some instability inside of the department.

BURNETT: Laura, you've covered Iran for more than 20 years. Obviously, you're senior editor at "The Atlantic". When the general talks about how this lands in Tehran, when they look at something like this, what is the significance of that? Someone who's at the top of the U.S. Navy, the optics of that being out?

LAURA SECOR, SENIOR EDITOR, THE ATLANTIC: Yeah, it's not a great look. Especially not at a time when there's sort of so much confusion about what the U.S. objectives seem to be and where its red lines lie in advance of these negotiations. It does project a bit of chaos.

BURNETT: You know, Brett, as you've been involved with negotiations with Iran during both the Obama and Biden administrations, you know, and you've been in the rooms where -- where the negotiations happen, you know, what do you think the impact of something like this is? You know, obviously, the -- there is a bit of an irony, right, in the

fact that that we're being told no one knows who's running things in Tehran when the U.S. is doing things like just kicking out its secretary of the Navy in the midst of the biggest blockade in 70 years.

BRETT MCGURK, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Yeah. And I agree with mark. It's not going to affect, I think, the operational element of the -- of the blockade. But what the U.S. is trying to project right now to Iran is that we're settling into a steady state of economic pressure, mounting economic pressure.

We're going to have this blockade in place. We got three carrier strike groups. We're settling in. So, to have your navy secretary ousted or resigning, right as that's happening does not, I think -- it doesn't send a signal of confidence.

And Iran will read it. They're looking for any indication that they can wiggle out of this, and they'll read it as kind of an opening and maybe the administration is not as cohesive. One thing that might be happening behind the scenes -- I mean, the navy secretary is focused on force management, global force management. And I'm sure there is a debate in the administration as we have this massive resource focus on the Middle East that affects readiness in other parts of the globe. That's probably part of the debate, might be part of it, but we don't know.

BURNETT: Yeah, we don't -- we don't know. General Schwartz, all that is really crucial, not just in terms of force positioning, but also the weapons that have been used, right, and everything given -- obviously, we've talked about what this all means for China, but what does this mean also for Pete Hegseth?

You know, there have been -- there had been discussion as to whether there was any wavering in the president's commitment to Hegseth at various moments. But this would appear that this sort of came down to it's me or him, and Hegseth won.

SCHWARTZ: Certainly, the secretary has the full confidence that the president. I mean, every time that they're in public together, whether it's the formal briefings or, you know, at the White House, when they have their updates, obviously the security updates the president speaks very highly of the secretary and demonstrates that he has full confidence in how he's carrying out the war.

So, whether it's a consolidation of power, I really can't assess that. But certainly, you know, he's the one that brought that recommendation to the president and the president approved it.

BURNETT: Laura, you know, Barak Ravid was reporting from a U.S. government source that there's real questions about whether the supreme leader, Mojtaba Khamenei, is incapacitated, you know, whether he's, you know, in a sense, it wasn't even a point about alive or dead. It's whether he can be involved in any way, shape or form, which could be crucial.

Where do you think we are with the supreme leader right now? We obviously haven't seen him in the 54 days of this war either.

SECOR: Right. No, there's obviously, there are legitimate questions to be raised here. And in this length of time, to have seen nothing that would indicate that he is functioning in the way that one would expect the supreme leader to be functioning is, is a sign that something is not as, as it's been presented. There's a lot of unknowns, obviously, and one of them is to the extent that the supreme leader there is, is an individual, but is also an office in Iran.

There is a whole institution that undergirds the supreme leader. It's got about 4,000 employees at headquarters and maybe ten times that across the country.

[19:10:00]

So, it's not just a question of is Mojtaba Khamenei himself making every decision personally? But is this bureaucracy functioning? Who is running it? And to the extent that it that it is or isn't, what does that mean for the balance of factional forces inside the Iranian regime? Because those forces have always been there.

It's -- it's a country without political parties, but with politics and the office of the leader in certain times was a sort of balancing and --

BURNETT: Arbiter. An arbiter of some sort.

SECOR: Allegedly.

BURNETT: Allegedly. But it's interesting, you say 40,000 people work the bureaucracy of the supreme leaders office itself.

SECOR: Yeah.

BURNETT: Brett, you know, would you talk about who's making the decisions here? And I know that the White House does talk about all these factions that are going on. And now there's talk about the former Quds Force leader, General Vahidi, who is obviously the chief of the IRGC, that perhaps he is essentially calling the shots.

What do you know of him?

MCGURK: Well, he goes back a long ways. He was sanctioned in the Obama administration in 2010 for having connections to the nuclear program. He read the -- he led the Quds Force, the expeditionary arm of the Revolutionary Guards in the late '80s and through the '90s, before Qasem Soleimani. He was involved in violent crackdowns against the Iranian people.

So, you know, the term hardliner is overused. All these guys are hardliners. But he kind of is the essence of that hardline system. And if he is consolidating power, and that wouldn't be surprising because the Revolutionary Guards, under his command have most of the weapons and the mechanisms of violence.

It's going to be very difficult, I think, to get a deal because it's doubtful the first thing he would want to do is to do a big deal with the great Satan.

And, you know, all these guys, Erin, come out of the Iran-Iraq war. You don't see one guy being replaced with a younger generation. It's all the same generation.

But Vahidi is particularly hard line. I will say the Iranians always use this card of internal divisions, hardliners versus moderates, but in this case, it's probably true given the power vacuum that opened up on the first night of the war, when the Iranian leadership was basically eliminated.

BURNETT: You know, I'm curious, Laura, when, you know, the shipping data that we were talking about, and obviously, a blockade is something that the U.S. could choose to enforce. Let the ship go and apprehend it somewhere else, avoid sort of a military fire on the ship there. I understand that -- that's possible.

But if you look at just what the "FT" confirmed about the oil-bearing ships going out, you look at the value of the oil on those ships and you discount it versus the market. That would be $1 billion coming into Iran at this point. When you talk about a blockade, which is causing extreme economic duress for Iran. How important is $1 billion?

SECOR: I think it's pretty important.

BURNETT: Yeah.

SECOR: I think especially if that -- if that's the pressure point that were going for right now, is the economic pressure. That is a really surprising figure.

BURNETT: Yeah. I mean, they, you know, they took Brent crude, they discounted it $10. I mean, it was obviously the "Financial Times" analysis, but obviously shows how important, you know, the financial, the finances are.

I mean, General, I guess, do you see the U.S. enforcing a blockade, you know, out on the open sea? Then they apprehend a ship like that and bought it and take it over. Do you think that's possible?

SCHWARTZ: It's certainly possible.

BURNETT: Because they're leaving the gulf. I mean I know CENTCOM denies they're leaving the gulf, but a lot of them are leaving the gulf.

SCHWARTZ: It's certainly possible. But obviously, the further these ships get away from our, you know, our two strike groups and the ARGs that are in the -- in the Persian Gulf themselves, it becomes far more difficult, right? Just the tyranny of distance. But and there's also, there's quite a bit of capability, but there is a limited capacity of how many visit board search and seizures that the U.S. navy, the U.S. Marine Corps can carry out.

And I suspect, you know, thinking about this in those numbers today, I think there's a possibility that there's some criteria that commander CENTCOM has been given if, in fact, 35 ships have gotten out. I was surprised to hear that, you know, ships carrying crude had had gone in, successfully navigated out of the Gulf of Oman and are now, you know, in the open seas to their points of delivery.

So, that -- that is surprising, but I bet there are some criteria that has been provided because you can't cover every ship. Obviously, it's real easy as they're going through the strait to stop them or to put surveillance up on ports. But once they get out in the open seas, it's much more difficult.

BURNETT: Right? And of course, I guess we should point out the strait is controlled by Iran right now, right? So, in terms of that, Brett, one thing I know when you've been at the negotiating table with a lot of the people who are in the room of this negotiation, right? Araghchi among them, you know, we keep hearing now, and I don't know whether it's an excuse or a reality.

So, I'm curious what you think that the Trump administration says. Well, they don't know who's calling the shots. And we're going to be patient because we don't know and let them figure it out because, right, were letting these negotiations go on a little bit longer.

[19:15:03]

Do you think that that there is a real lack of clarity on who's calling the shots?

Or is this something that you've seen before as a negotiating tactic?

MCGURK: Erin, I have seen it before. I mean, I had experience almost a year of secret negotiations on a hostage deal. Jason Rezaian, several other Americans. His wife was part of the deal.

At the last moment, I was in Geneva, I got a call from the Swiss ambassador in Tehran. He said, I think he said the green men, the Revolutionary Guards, are scuttling this deal because Yegi, Jason's wife, disappeared. So we've seen this before. But that was a coherent regime system.

And so, the point is, even then, you had some of this. But now given the vacuum, I think it's almost certain, Erin, that we probably have very little insight into what exactly is happening. There are probably factional rivalries, and that's why you cannot negotiate this in public. And that's why I think the public statements have been so damaging, because whenever an element of the deal leaks out, that's when the factional rivalries really sharpen their knives and everything is so public.

This has to be done as secretly as possible to pre-cook the deal and then roll it out. I'm hopeful we can get back to that negotiating table. But again, I go back to where I started and I think we're at a kind of new steady state here. Economic pressure. Hopefully, it's contained to that.

We don't have the shooting starting again. But it's a predicament. It's a real predicament. And if Iran's breaking that blockade and getting those revenues, that's another problem.

BURNETT: Yeah, it is. It is though just stunning in a sense to think about it that were talking about being in the middle of the war that the United States is negotiating with the other side, and that they actually don't know who they can negotiate with. You know, basic thing to say, but it is pretty stunning.

Thanks very much, all of you.

And the breaking news. Next, a judge just putting a halt on the new House map in Virginia, which voters approved last night. Democrats, meantime, are warning Republicans who may be thinking about redrawing more maps with this

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Message to Florida Republicans is F around and find out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Plus, the deaths are disappearances of at least ten people connected to sensitive U.S. research now under FBI investigation. As the conspiracy theories about these individuals will not die down, we have new information tonight.

And the granddaughter of the late Reverend Billy Graham has a message for Donald Trump -- don't use the Lord as a justification for your actions. She'll be our guest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:21:58]

BURNETT: Breaking news, a Virginia judge blocking certification of the state's new congressional map that would boost Democrats chances of winning 10 of Virginia's 11 U.S. House seats. So, it was a huge move.

The Republican appointed judge, citing multiple issues with the new map, which was approved by Virginia voters last night. Now, the state attorney general says he intends to immediately appeal the ruling and the fight over redistricting, though, isn't cooling down at all when it comes to the polling booth. Republicans in Florida are considering redrawing their own congressional maps. In that case, it would favor the GOP, and the top House Democrat tonight is daring them to go ahead and try.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFFRIES: Our message to Florida Republicans is F around and find out the Republicans are dummy-mandering their way into the minority before a single vote is cast. Because they started this war and we're going to finish it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BURNETT: OUTFRONT now, former Democratic House member, Tom Malinowski, and former Trump White House communications director and, of course, host of "The View", Alyssa Farah Griffin.

All right. Alyssa, you know, it's the way that hakeem Jeffries obviously, Democrat leader spoke, you know, that Republicans started this war and were going to finish it. Now, he's referring to Texas, which was first out of the gate. By the way, I went all the way to the Supreme Court and was upheld there. So, that -- that could mean similar for Virginia. We'll see.

But he is correct that this was started by Republicans. So now we've got the math that's leaning Democratic, right? I mean, is this a self- inflicted issue for Republicans?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes and no. I mean, partisan gerrymandering has been going on for decades. I remember when Adam Kinzinger seat was written out in Illinois, somebody who's a moderate Republican, but still the Democratic map didn't favor him and his seat disappeared.

We've seen this many years over, but Republicans did start it. And heading into the midterms, the place you don't want to be is redrawing congressional maps to favor yourself. You want to be in a position where you're so confident going into the midterms, that's not even necessary.

But that's not reality. The average ballot right now favors Democrats by more than 15 points right now. So, Republicans are going to play hardball.

In some cases, they maybe won't like Indiana, but we've seen a tit for tat. We've seen Texas. We've seen California, now Virginia and next Florida.

I -- I think that right now the Democratic base wants to see their party fight. So they're encouraging these fights to be taking place.

BURNETT: And you know what, Congressman, it's interesting when I introduced you, former Democratic house member Tom Malinowski. Okay, part of the reason you're a former is because redistricting was part of the reason you lost. Okay? So, you fell -- you fell prey to it.

Now you see what's happening in hakeem Jeffries saying, okay, bring it on. You started the war. We're going to finish it. Is this all a race to the bottom?

TOM MALINOWSKI (D), FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: So we have a bipartisan process in New Jersey. So, I fell victim, yeah, but to a fair process, I have to admit.

I ran for Congress -- every single time I ran for Congress. I promised to vote to ban partisan gerrymandering everywhere in America. We had that vote in the House twice when I was there.

I helped lead that. We passed it. Every Republican voted against it, and then it got filibustered in the Senate.

[19:25:05]

I think they regret it now.

So, look, there's two ways that this can go. It can be a race to the bottom. And I agree that it's not great. Or Republicans can join Democrats in banning partisan gerrymandering everywhere. And mark my words, Erin, they should do it this year because the members who are elected in these very partisan maps, Republicans and Democrats, they may not want to vote themselves out of a seat in two or three years. So, this is the time to strike and something good can come out of this.

BURNETT: Alyssa, President Trump -- and it's actually interesting, we were sitting here last night right before it was called. And obviously the way that the votes came in with the mass early vote and then you know, Loudoun County, Fairfax County, which the big population centers, lean Democrat came in last. Okay? It all happened pretty fast, but for half an hour, the no, we are not redistricting vote was up. It was up by about five points. And then it flipped.

And I said to myself, I know what's going to happen here. And here we are. The day dawned and President Trump claimed that the election was rigged and that the referendum used language that was purposely unintelligible and deceptive as well.

Then he added, "As everyone knows, I am an extraordinarily brilliant person." Wait, is this really okay? Yep, yep, it did. This is, you know, we're destroying civilizations and then -- okay.

"And even I had no idea what the hell they were talking about in the referendum, and neither do they."

Okay. What do you say to this?

GRIFFIN: So, listen, it's always rigged with Donald Trump when it doesn't favor the outcome he wants. So, remember election night 2024 when, by the way, he won. He won bigly, as he would say.

But Virginia did look closer for Trump than people anticipated. I don't know if you remember. It was a lot of us we're watching. Like if Virginia goes for Trump, that's -- I mean, that is a absolute red wave. Of course, Loudoun County, Fairfax County come in and it ultimately goes for Democrats.

When he loses, it's rigged. You see, he never questions the election results though, that favor him. This is just one of the greatest hits with Trump. He likes to go back to it. He likes to cast doubt.

The problem is though, is people do believe this. I think he's been saying it for long enough that something like 62 percent of Republicans have questions about the last two elections. That's not a good thing to. So that kind of doubt in our elections.

BURNETT: No, and, Tom, I will say it is it is also, you know, and I said it almost laughing, but it's not funny, right, that in that half an hour, anybody knew what I thought, which was that this was going to, this was what it was going to say.

GRIFFIN: Yeah, I mean, I -- that's why I try to ignore him these days. Unfortunately, millions of Americans still don't. And I think unfortunately for the Republican Party, these tweets and the actions behind them, that's the message going into the midterms. And it's -- you know, to say it's not a winning message is an understatement at this point.

I mean, there's no amount of gerrymandering, even if Republican -- even if Democrats hadn't responded in the way that they have, I think no amount of gerrymandering would have saved the House majority for Trump's party.

BURNETT: And we'll see. I guess that's what, Alyssa, you were pointing out, right? The 15-point gap right now. And we'll see what happens right there. There's still time to go. So, we'll see plenty of time.

Thank you both very much.

And next, conspiracy theories swirling about the ten mysteriously dead or missing people tied to sensitive American research.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just know he is rolling in his grave knowing that his name is going around being involved in something like this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: This is new and really important. What are their families saying tonight about this sudden surge in this theory?

And Trump taking part in a bible reading event with other top Republicans after posting the image of himself as Jesus Christ, the granddaughter of the late evangelist Billy Graham is OUTFRONT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:33:43]

BURNETT: Tonight, it's the conspiracy theory that won't die down on the right. The Republican chairman of the House Oversight Committee now pointing the finger at America's adversaries in the deaths or unexplained disappearances of about ten people connected to sensitive national security issues.

The Oversight Committee now is investigating. The FBI has also opened a probe.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): China, North Korea, Iran, Russia, they're all, you know, on the -- on the suspect list. But there are a lot of, you know, Eastern European countries and other countries that that could be involved as well. Or it could be a coincidence

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: And of course, there are thousands of people who work on those projects.

Natasha Chen looked at the conspiracy theories and lays out what we now know in this OUTFRONT report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Whether coincidence or conspiracy.

COMER: There's a high possibility that something sinister is taking place here.

CHEN (voice-over): The deaths and disappearances of about a dozen people who are either scientists or worked with scientists with access to sensitive national security information, has gone from a fringe talker to a federal investigation.

CHEN: What do you think your dad would say if he knew that there was an investigation like this?

JULIA HICKS, DAUGHTER OF MICHAEL HICKS: I just know he is rolling in his grave knowing that his name is going around, being involved in something like this.

[19:35:01]

CHEN (voice-over): Julia Hicks's father, 59-year-old Michael David Hicks, was named in a letter from the Republican-led House Oversight Committee, calling for the FBI, NASA, Department of Energy, and Department of Defense to investigate possible connections among cases, including Hicks, because he worked at the NASA jet propulsion laboratory on projects working to deflect near-earth asteroids and his obituary did not state a cause of death.

Julia Hicks was the one who found her father when he died.

HICKS: He had. Underlying medical conditions for years and years and years, and when he passed away, I knew why. There was no need for an autopsy for me.

CHEN (voice-over): But the House Oversight Committee chair, Republican James Comer, thinks there's more to the story.

COMER: It's very unlikely that this is a coincidence. So, Congress is very concerned about this. Our committee is making this one of our priorities now, because we view this as a national security threat.

CHEN (voice-over): President Trump called the matter pretty serious stuff.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope it's random, but some of them were very important people. And we're going to look at it.

CHEN (voice-over): The case is sparking speculation date back to 2022 when Amy Eskridge died at age 34. She had founded the Institute for Exotic Science.

AMY ESKRIDGE, FOUNDER, THE INSTITUTE FOOR EXOTIC SCIENCE: You can't be calling these people to be like, can I disclose UFOs tomorrow? You have to be like, in talks with these people.

CHEN (voice-over): But her family told CNN in a statement, people should realize that scientists die also and not make too much of this.

Conspiracy theories also swirl around 39-year-old Matthew James Sullivan, a U.S. Air Force intelligence officer who died in 2024. Republican Congressman Eric Burlison wrote about Sullivan in a letter saying Sullivan was about to testify in a whistleblower case about UFOs.

Circumstances around some of the scientists being lumped into this mysterious group are actually well-documented.

ANDREW MCCABE, FORMER FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Specifically, the MIT professor who was killed, as we know, by the same person who shot up the classroom in Brown University. There was another researcher who was a scientist who was a researcher for a big pharma company that also doesn't really fit the potential pattern.

CHEN (voice-over): But former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe says it's worth exploring the cases with no known connection and cannot be explained at the moment, like the disappearance of Melissa Casias and Anthony Chavez, who worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

Chavez's best friend told CNN, it's about time for a federal investigation.

As for some speculation that these deaths are disappearances could be linked to work with UFOs.

MCCABE: That's really not very helpful to investigators. They want to kind of not prejudge anything and really just look at the raw facts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHEN: Another missing person on the list is retired Air Force Major General William Neil McCasland, CNN reported in February he hasn't been seen since he walked out of his Albuquerque, New Mexico, home late that month.

Now, at one point in his career, he commanded the Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force base, and his wife at the time told CNN that yes, while there was a brief connection with the UFO community, that's not a reason for anyone to abduct him. She said, then no sightings of motherships hovering -- Erin.

BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much. Natasha Chen and obviously so crucial to hear what the people who would, you know, want to know if there was any connections to anything, they would want to know the most. And this is how they feel.

OUTFRONT next, the granddaughter of the Reverend Billy Graham taking Trump on tonight. She has something to say about the image that Trump posted, depicting himself as Jesus Christ.

Plus, the FBI says that there is, quote, no credible information that Epstein trafficked his victims to other men, but I mean, even in what we saw in the files, that's like what? CNN found allegations against multiple men in the DOJ Epstein file. So, what is the FBI going to do about it?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:43:07]

BURNETT: Tonight, the granddaughter of the late Reverend Billy Graham is taking on President Trump, saying, do not use the Lord as a justification for his actions. These are strong words from famed evangelist Billy Graham and the niece of evangelical Pastor Franklin Graham, who is a vocal Trump supporter.

OUTFRONT now, Jerusha Dufort. She is an evangelical Christian.

And, Jerusha, I appreciate your time tonight. I'm glad to talk to you again.

Trump was reading the bible last night to a crowd and saying, quote, "return to the spiritual foundation that has shaped our country."

What did you think of those words and him doing this in the context of where we are now, right where he said, this war is justified by God, and he has obviously posted those images of himself as Jesus?

JERUSHAH DUFORD, REV. BILLY GRAHAM'S GRANDDAUGHTER: Sure. I'm not surprised by anything that our president does. It's been 12 years of seeing the same thing over and over again.

However, I think that our president continues to use the Lord and believing that he's following the Lord and enacting on his commands to avoid accountability.

I think that he kind of uses it as the no pun intended, but the ultimate trump card, right? I'm following the Lord. I'm doing what the lord is asking. And it's -- the hypocrisy of that is very clear to the American people.

BURNETT: So, I've mentioned obviously that Trump has said that, that this war in Iran is, is a war for God and that God backs it. And I just wanted to play some of what he has said, talking about the war with Iran. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Do you believe that God supports the United States actions?

TRUMP: I do, because God is good, because God is good, and God wants to see people taking care of. God doesn't like what's happening. I don't like what's happening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: You know, so he's saying, God backs it. He's put it in the framework essentially, of an existential religious battle between Christianity and Islam. Right on Easter, he posted open the -- and I'm going to read it because he posted it in this context. "Open the fucking strait, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch. Praise be to Allah."

So, Jerushah, you're an evangelical Christian, right? You're going to church. You are talking to people for whom faith is central to their lives. How are people responding to this?

DUFORD: That's a -- there's a various answers to that. Partially because of the place I live in the country. They're not necessarily responding the same way I would.

However, you know, he continues to take human decisions, right? An act of war and claiming that those decisions are divinely endorsed is a really slippery slope.

His tweet on Easter, this is a -- this is one of the holiest days for our faith and fruits of the spirit. Love, joy, peace. I would hope that on that day of all days, some of those traits would be embodied by a president that instead of raising the temperature, he would make some sort of effort to lower the temperature.

And you know, I'm not again, surprised by the actions that he's taken over and over again.

BURNETT: So, Jerusha, this brings me to the image of himself as Jesus Christ. He posted the A.I. generated picture that showed Jesus embracing him, then saying, quote, the radical left lunatics might like, might not like this, but I think it's quite nice. That was what he posted after the image of himself as Jesus. Now, you know, he framed it and said that he was a doctor. Here's his words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I did post it and I thought it was me as a doctor and had to do with Red Cross.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: You know, as we pointed out, it's an absurd thing to say. What were you more surprised by the post itself or the fact that Trump explained it away in the way that he did?

DUFORD: Honestly, neither. But I was offended by the blind loyalty of the church, coming around that. It continues to erode any trust left that people have of the church, of looking to it as a moral standard.

Erin, what does Trump have to do to get Christians to call out what he's actually doing? Lately, we've seen some conservative Republicans calling out some things, people in my family, not so much, but I don't understand what he has to do

BURNETT: Right? I mean, well, you know, he talked about wiping out a civilization off the map, which is inconsistent with any religion. You mentioned your family uncle, your Uncle Franklin Graham, who's also one of the readers for the bible event, back Trump up on the post about Jesus when he posted the image of himself as Jesus.

And he said, I'm thankful that the president's made it very clear this was not at all what he thought the A.I. generated image was representing. He thought it was a doctor helping somebody. And then he continues to say, I think this is a lot to do about nothing. And going into details saying, well, there were no angels. There were -- there were no crosses, there were fighter planes. You know, he went into, you know, quite extensive detail, defending it.

What do you say to your uncle?

DUFORD: The hypocrisy is just so loud. I, I think they're often underestimating the intelligence of the American people. We can't be gaslit into what is actually happening. What were actually seeing. And again, I don't know what he has to do to lose the support of some of these evangelical Christian leaders.

But I also feel as though, again, I'm not surprised by this. And I don't envision it changing. It's just continuing to erode any moral high ground that the church had.

BURNETT: Jerusha, I appreciate your time. I'm glad to talk to you again. Thanks a lot.

DUFORD: Thanks, Erin.

BURNETT: All right. And next CNN finding more than a dozen instances in the DOJ Epstein files where victims told the FBI about other men in Epstein's orbit.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Unfortunately, what we're seeing right now is that there's been so little investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNETT: Why is that? Kyung Lah has a special report, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:53:57]

BURNETT: Tonight, Democrats demanding answers about a possible pardon for Jeffrey Epstein accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell. Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi sending a scathing letter to Trump's DOJ over its reported willingness to pardon Maxwell. The congressman also saying even with access to testimony and documentation detailing the abuse of more than 1,000 women and children. The department has brought no charges beyond those against Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And Kyung Lah is OUTFRONT tonight with a closer look at the

allegations against other men connected to Epstein.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They're the faceless figures in Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking ring. Women and girls whose stories fill the Department of Justice files, some explaining they were raped, others went out to Epstein's friends, and another given sexual instructions for other men and trafficked.

Epstein went to jail for sex trafficking. So did accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell. But the Trump administration says evidence doesn't show other men participated in the abuse from the FBI.

[19:55:00]

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: There is no credible information. None. If there were, I would bring the case yesterday that he trafficked to other individuals.

LAH (voice-over): To the DOJ.

TODD BLANCHE, ACTING ATTORNEY GENERAL: Anybody with evidence come to the FBI and tell us.

LAH (voice-over): Victims did tell the FBI, but the files show little sign of any follow up by investigators. A CNN review of the DOJ's own publicly released Epstein files finds more than a dozen times where victims told the FBI that Epstein facilitated sexual encounters with his rich and powerful network.

But here's what we can't find in the public files. Much evidence of further investigation after those women spoke to the FBI.

LAH: What does justice, at the end of the day look like for you?

ANNIE FARMER, EPSTEIN SURVIVOR: Before we can even get to, you know, to prosecution, we need investigation, right? And so unfortunately, what we're seeing right now is that there's been so little investigation.

LAH (voice-over): Annie Farmer is an Epstein survivor. She says she was sexually abused by Epstein and his partner, Ghislaine Maxwell, when she was just 16.

She's joined House Oversight Committee ranking member Robert Garcia in a public push for more accountability.

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA), RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: This is about some of the most powerful, wealthiest people believing that they can just get away with anything. And they empowered Jeffrey Epstein to be that person.

LAH (voice-over): The files reveal how Epstein built a trafficking ring. The victims were teenagers or young women who needed money and influence to start their lives. Epstein paid for gifts and exotic trips to his Caribbean island for parties. Victims told the FBI at first, he seemed harmless.

One victim told the Palm Beach Police Department two decades ago how Epstein would groom his victims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every girl that meets Jeffrey starts off with giving him a massage. The more you do with him, the more you make.

LAH (voice-over): In this 2021 report, a victim told FBI she believed they trafficked me. She says Epstein sent her to Dr. Henry Jarecki, a renowned psychiatrist who could help her with college. This is Jarecki pictured here with Epstein in the files.

Because she really wanted to attend college, she says she gave Jarecki oral sex. There's no sign of an FBI investigation with Jarecki. He says he's never abused anyone.

A wealthy banker named in an FBI report is Jes Staley.

JES STALEY, AMERICAN BANKER: I have had a long standing professional or had a long-standing professional relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

LAH (voice-over): A woman told the FBI that she met Staley at Epstein's New York mansion. The woman says Epstein was paying for her to attend massage school and told her to give Staley a massage. Photos show Epstein owned an elaborate massage room.

The massage ended in rough sex, she told Staley she did not want this. Federal investigators spoke to local cops about accusations against Staley, but the files don't show much follow up. Staley said in court he did have sex with one of Epstein's assistants, but it was consensual.

LEON BLACK, WALL STREET INVESTOR: I love doing business. My whole life I've enjoyed doing business.

LAH (voice-over): Leon Black is a Wall Street titan. A woman said Epstein told her to massage Black, who started becoming sexual. She then ran out of the room. Another woman said Black raped her.

Files show the DOJ spoke about Black with the Manhattan D.A.'s office, which began looking into him, but he has not been charged for anything. An attorney for Black said he has never abused, assaulted or raped any girl or woman, and the idea of doing so is repulsive and reprehensible to him.

SPENCER KUVIN, ATTORNEY FOR EPSTEIN SURVIVORS: It's just an absolute travesty, the way that the entire thing has played out.

LAH (voice-over): Attorney Spencer Kuvin has represented multiple Epstein victims. One of his clients says Epstein and maxwell loaned her to a corporate executive in Palm Beach, Florida.

KUVIN: Girls were not people to him, they were objects to be traded. He would utilize both underage victims, but he would also utilize other women who were over the age of 18 to satisfy men that he wanted to curry favor with.

LAH (voice-over): You're almost talking about an economic ecosystem based on the abuse of women.

KUVIN: It was.

LAH (voice-over): Moses Castillo is a former LAPD sex crimes detective. He says he'd expect to see more basic investigation and follow up in the files.

MOSES CASTILLO, FORMER LAPD DETECTIVE: It's actually policing 101, police investigations 101. You check the flight, you check all the hotels, you check this -- this victim said this and that. Can you go out there and corroborate that? So, it's time consuming, but it's not impossible.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: Kyung, I mean, it's incredible to just see all of that as you show it in black and white. And I know there are many other names, right, that that have similar allegations. Has the Trump administration's position changed at all on any of this? You know, when you think about this reporting that you're putting out there in black and white?

LAH: Well, we did follow up with the Department of Justice, asking them that very same question, and they sent us this statement in regards to allegations specifically about other men. The statement says, quote, "The allegations contained in them were thoroughly investigated," referring to the Epstein files.

Prosecutors at the time did not feel that the evidence was sufficient to prosecute. We then turn to some of the men who you just heard about in the report, Erin, a spokesperson for Jarecki, says that he has advanced dementia and is non-communicative and that a non-response does not suggest tacit approval. We did not hear back from representatives from Maxwell or Jes Staley -- Erin.

BURNETT: Kyung, thank you very much.

And thanks to all of you.

"AC360" starts now.