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Erin Burnett Outfront

Third U.S. Aircraft Carrier Arrives, 15K Troops Now In Mideast; Megyn Kelly: "Trump Has Cratered," Is "Effed" Ahead Of Midterms; Pentagon Fires Ombudsman At Military Newspaper Stars And Stripes. Aired 7-8p ET

Aired April 24, 2026 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:23]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT next:

Breaking news: a third U.S. aircraft carrier arriving in the Middle East; 15,000 troops in the region as the -- as the ceasefire hangs by a thread. Trump's defense chief says the U.S. is locked and loaded.

Plus, worst consumer sentiment on record. Highest disapproval rating of the second term. What trouble does this spell now for the president and his party? A MAGA heavyweight says that he is running out of time to turn things around.

And she was fired suddenly after speaking out against Pentagon overreach. The ombudsman for "Stars and Stripes" newspaper is our guest. Why does she think Hegseth wanted her out?

Let's go OUTFRONT.

(MUSIC)

BOLDUAN: Good evening, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan, in for Erin Burnett.

OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. A third U.S. aircraft carrier is arriving in the Middle East. The Pentagon says the USS George H.W. Bush is joining two other carriers, meaning 15,000 sailors and marines are now in the region. More than 200 aircraft on these three ships.

To call this a show of force is an understatement, as Trump's war with Iran is in its 56th day now. The fragile ceasefire tonight is hanging by a thread, and the only certainty right now is that there is a lot of confusion tonight. Trump's diplomatic duo, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, they're about to leave for Pakistan. The White House says they will take part in talks with Iran this weekend.

The Iranian foreign minister just landed in Pakistan a few hours ago, and his spokesperson says this -- no meeting is planned to take place between Iran and the U.S., and that is after the White House said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The Iranians want to talk. They want to talk in person. And so, the president is, as I've said many, many times to all of you, always willing to give diplomacy a chance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And back in the U.S., the president is facing new pressure from his own party tonight to resume attacks on Iran. The chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Roger Wicker, he said this, that the time is over for negotiations with Iran's regime. The radical successors of Khamenei can never be trusted to keep any promise or agreement, sources tell CNN. The U.S. military is developing contingency plans for a major concentrated bombing campaign on the Strait of Hormuz if talks fall apart again.

We're also learning the U.S. could target specific Iranian military leaders who are believed to be obstructing the peace talks. But it's also important to note the two people who will not be in Pakistan for any apparent talks at this direct moment -- Iran not sending its top negotiator, Mohammad Ghalibaf, who met with Vice President Vance for the first round of failed talks.

The White House says Vance is also not there, but on standby if talks progress. Nic Robertson is in Islamabad, where these talks, if they happen, would take place.

Nic, very tense situation at another critical moment.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yeah. And it seems that this is all about sequencing and messaging.

Number one, the Iranians are clearly messaging to their own people, as they have been all along, signaling that the foreign minister, who is right now having talks with the top Pakistani negotiators here, is he is just here in Pakistan for that meeting with Pakistani officials, not to meet U.S. officials. You know, when you try to unpack that a little bit, what does it really mean, given that the White House is sending Jared Kushner, Steve Witkoff here?

Well, the Iranian foreign minister before he left Tehran, he said that he was going to come here for talks, going to go to Oman, Muscat there for talks, and then go to Moscow for talks. And perhaps after all that, he's going to circle back here. And perhaps that's when he'll meet with Jared Kushner. Steve Witkoff -- it just isn't clear.

I think the takeaway at the moment is that, however, each step in this talks process and the Iranians are saying they're telling the Pakistanis right now all of their points, all of their concerns about where things stand, how each step goes begets the possibility of the next one. That's the probable sequencing, for sure. It's not clear.

And you have at the same time, the bigger build-up in the region close to the Strait of Hormuz. That third aircraft carrier coming in, a more modern aircraft carrier than the others that are in position. It can carry the very sophisticated F-35s. So that brings additional high capability fighter jets into the region, gives the president the option of those -- of increasing the strikes against Iran, perhaps against those small, fast boats that he said he's going to go after that are dropping mines that are pirating, as Pete Hegseth called it today -- on the container ships that are passing through the Strait of Hormuz.

[19:05:05]

The A-10 warthogs with their gatling guns that can fly low and slow and go after those fast, small Iranian boats on the water. Perhaps they're already in the region. They're there.

But it's that additional firepower that the new aircraft carrier brings -- amps up, if you will, the threat that the Iranians face, and they keep saying that they don't want to negotiate under threat, they keep saying the Strait of Hormuz that must be blockaded by the U.S. for them to move forward in talks.

Yet here they are, perhaps moving off somewhere else before coming back to meet with the president's envoys. But diplomacy was stalemated, it seemed, for a couple of days. Now it's moving quite where it goes. We don't know.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. Blockade against blockade. The terrifying game of chicken. Maybe some movement tonight again. But uncertainty abound. It's great to see you, Nic. Thank you so much for being there.

Everyone is here with me now to talk more about this.

Alex Plitsas is here with me. Alex, you've got -- so Kushner Witkoff -- Kushner and Witkoff is a great name for the duo. But Witkoff and Kushner, they're now going to head to Pakistan. You've got the messaging from Iran.

I like how Nic put it. It's about sequencing and messaging in this moment. You -- you've been speaking to Iranian sources. What is going on?

ALEX PLITSAS, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Nic characterized it exactly correctly. So as Karoline Leavitt noted today, that the Iranians seem to have moved on a couple of positions where things broke down the last time when the vice president was in Pakistan with Ghalibaf and they were discussing the status of negotiations, there were a few policy items that were stuck, particularly around the nuclear program and a few others.

They needed to go back and get consensus inside of Iran. They didn't feel that they could do that due to communication, security, et cetera. So, they had to go back.

And we heard the other day, the president said, I'm going to extend the cease fire to allow the Iranians to get their stuff together internally, because they're fractured. And the IRGC, we're told internally, was putting some pressure on the civilian leaders to figure that out. It seems that they have coalesced around a position. They're going to come back and present that to the Pakistanis. They're supposed to also meet with the Omanis, who previously had

helped to represent them in talks. And then Moscow has been their main beneficiary, who they've been providing drones to for their disgusting war crimes in Ukraine and everything else that's going on. So, it's an excess of two awful regimes at this point. But we're at the table with them, so we have to deal with it at this point.

BOLDUAN: I mean, it's -- somethings got to give. We keep saying, right?

And, Nazila Fathi, how -- the view from inside Iran, how do the Iranians who is negotiating now, who is in charge, who's going to make the decisions? What is the view of Kushner and Witkoff as kind of running point on this?

NAZILA FATHI, FORMER NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDENT BASED IN TEHRAN FOR TEN YEARS: Kate, I don't think Iranians see either Kushner or Witkoff as reliable, diplomatic negotiators because twice when they were negotiating with them, Iran came under attack by the United States. So, I think this trip by Araghchi is mostly part of an effort to find an off ramp to the current crisis and the fact that he is going to Pakistan, Oman and Russia, basically three strategic partners in the region is very telling.

The fact that he went to Pakistan first, Pakistan was where some of the most recent talks took place. Oman is a very trusted mediator in the region. I think these two countries are places through which Iranian officials are trying to send a message to Washington. And as Nic and Alex said, Iranians are trying to control the narrative. They want to show both inside the country and outside the country, to the regional countries that Iran is trying to find a diplomatic solution.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

And, General Randy Manner -- I mean, the message from the defense secretary is that the United States was locked and loaded. You have this third aircraft carrier now heading to the region, you know, and Nic Robertson was laying out the firepower that it brings with it, the additional options that it could offer the president of the United States.

But what do you think of having three aircraft carriers now in the Middle East?

MAJ. GEN. RANDY MANNER, U.S. ARMY (RET.): It's unprecedented. I do not recall at any time when I was serving in the joint staff in the Pentagon that we ever had three aircraft carriers in one area, ever.

Secondly, I think that the administration is signaling for some kind of a major strike in the next week, the State Department surprisingly put out a warning to all Americans to leave the area immediately. That is -- that did not happen during the first attack, and they -- they received hell about it.

So, I think there's a high probability, no matter what happens on the diplomatic front, this president is going to go what he is. He uses all the time is he uses military might.

So, I would -- I truly believe there will be a major strike sometime in the next seven days.

BOLDUAN: Alex -- I mean, how does Iran view this, do you think? This -- this -- I mean, it definitely sends a very large, very big message moving a third aircraft carrier to the region. What as just as talks are potentially starting back up again.

PLITSAS: So, the timing is interesting in terms of sequence. So, the Ford was one of the two aircraft carriers that's been there. It underwent a fire. It's going to be the longest deployment. as Natasha Bertrand, our colleague noted basically since Vietnam from an aircraft carrier, it's due to be replaced.

So, we've got a bit of an overlap now on station with three. It really hasn't happened since the Iraq invasion, like two decades ago, was the last time we had this much firepower. And as the general pointed out, is correct. The message to the Iranians is clear. And what's you know, the president even made the statements.

What we're hearing now is that if this fails, the straits have to be reopened. They're not going to be allowed to control them. This idea that they're going to toll them and control is not something the U.S. is going to tolerate.

We're trying to -- it sounds like the U.S. is going to try to do this through negotiations, but if not to the generals point, the idea is that were then going to target along -- the infrastructure along the gulf to try to make it more or less risk averse for ships to transit through there.

BOLDUAN: But --

PLITSAS: I know.

BOLDUAN: Does that -- does that not just get right up to the line of crossing -- I mean, just towards escalation, again?

PLITSAS: It puts us back into hostilities and back with them potentially firing back again. So, yes, I think they're trying to prevent major attacks inside the country. They're trying to localize it to the strait. The U.S. will try to localize it to the strait as well, but there's always room for miscalculation and escalation from there.

BOLDUAN: To say the least. Look at -- look -- look at how this has progressed since the beginning --

PLITSAS: Yes.

BOLDUAN: -- 56 days ago.

Nazila, David Sanger of "The New York Times", he spoke with -- he spoke with Robert Malley, who you all know, who he is. He negotiated with Iran on the 2015 deal. He also with failed talks. Also during the Biden administration, tried to talk with Iran again. He described the differences of approach, if you will, or how Iran negotiates versus how Trump does in a way that just really stuck with me.

Here's what he said. He said Trump is impulsive and temperamental. Iran's leadership is stubborn and tenacious. Trump demands immediate results. Iran's leadership plays the long game. Trump insists on a flashy, headline grabbing outcome.

Iran's leadership sweats every detail. Trump believes brute force can compel obedience. Iran's leadership is prepared to endure enormous pain rather than concede on core interests.

And I'm left thinking, how are they going to get anywhere when you lay it out like that? I mean, what does Iran make of Trump's negotiating style, I guess, or how do you -- how do you find a middle point between these two styles?

FATHI: I think its very complicated. I mean, not just how different the negotiation styles are, but what the two sides are seeking here.

I mean -- I, the previous nuclear deal took about 18 months of intense negotiations. Many, many visits, and Iranians were going back and forth, and they had the support of the supreme leader back then to reach an agreement over Iran's nuclear program.

They don't even have that anymore. They have lost many of their leaders. They have become more defiant. It is very hard.

But I am hopeful. I am just hopeful that maybe agreement over a framework that would allow Iran and the U.S. to hold talks in the future and move forward would create some kind of peace in the region because, as Alex said, this is a very dangerous moment.

Any kind of instability can spill over in the region. And every day that these two blockades are in place in the strait of Hormuz and the U.S. blockade, they are costing the global economy. They are putting pressure on people everywhere in the world.

BOLDUAN: And speaking of messaging, General Manner, I want to play for you how the defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, the way he put it today while claiming victory and saying they wanted to get ready to negotiate and Iran has a choice. He then said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: No one sails from the Strait of Hormuz to anywhere in the world without the permission of the United States Navy. If Iran is putting mines in the water or otherwise threatening American commercial shipping or American forces, we will shoot to destroy. No hesitation. Just like the drug boats in the Caribbean, the War Department stands ready for what comes next, locked and loaded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And, General, he makes the argument that the U.S. is in control of the straits. The problem all along has proven that the enemy has got to stay in this as well. And Iran just seems to have just as much control of the strait at the very same time.

How do they shift that calculation? Because they haven't been able to yet.

MANNER: I actually completely agree that a framework, some kind of outline of how to proceed is going to be the most important way, because there is no way whatsoever that Iran is going to give up their power on the world economy by giving up the straits, and they also will not give up their nuclear program yet, because that is their key bargaining chip.

[19:15:03]

Having a framework to deescalate is very important. The quote that you had put on earlier by Mr. Malley is 100 percent accurate from where I sit as well, that the United States is actually from a position of weakness right now. All our military readiness is dropping every day. We've expended one third to one half of all of our munitions, and it will take years to replace them. We are stripping out the defenses of other theaters and moving them to this region.

This is not a war we were prepared for, and the way that it is being conducted is, quite frankly, weakening us continuously. So, I think the best that everyone can hope for is, quite frankly, a framework to move forward. Building on a little bit of trust between both parties that want to move toward reconciliation, because the United States does not own the geography around that strait. The Iranians do.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. Again, quite a moment. We are in on this Friday now into Saturday over there.

Thank you guys very much. I really appreciate it.

OUTFRONT for us next. New details about how the Navy secretary was pushed out in the middle of the war. What Donald Trump said to Hegseth behind closed doors just before the announcement. Plus, the Justice Department caves, dropping its investigation into Fed -- Fed Chairman Jerome Powell. The former top deputy to special counsel Jack Smith weighs in.

And here's a quote for you, "You're effed." That is Megyn Kelly's warning for the president as polls show he's hurting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEGYN KELLY, HOST OF "THE MEGYN KELLY SHOW": Has cratered. I mean, cratered. It's like not even present tense anymore. It's done

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: How bad is it getting for Trump? Max, Gretchen, they're here with me. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [19:21:23]

BOLDUAN: Tonight, Trump has cratered. That is the word now from Megyn Kelly, once a huge defender of President Trump, of course. She's reacting to the series of polls and such now that are not so good for Trump amid the war with Iran.

Today, consumer -- consumer sentiment hit its lowest level on record going back to 1952, 58 percent of Americans also now disapprove of the job that the president is doing, according to "The New York Times" polling average, the highest disapproval numbers of his second term.

And the most recent Fox News poll shows a majority of voters think that Democrats will be better than Republicans for the economy. And get this, that's the first time that has happened in that poll since 2010 under President Obama.

And then there's this take from Megyn Kelly.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY: Trump has cratered. I mean, cratered. It's like not even present tense anymore. It's done. You're effed. You need to adjust something ASAP.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Max Rose, Gretchen Carlson are both OUTFRONT here.

Gretchen, do you see it as bad for the president and the Republican Party as she's painting it?

GRETCHEN CARLSON, FORMER FOX NEWS HOST: I think it's bad with a capital B. He's underwater in absolutely every category except border security, which is 53 to 47 percent . With independents, he's underwater, 55 points. There's been almost a 60-point swing since he was reelected just a year and a half ago.

BOLDUAN: And that's no matter what any campaign says. Like we don't watch it. We look at trends. That is like a five-alarm fire.

CARLSON: Well, that is a five because independents decide every election. We know that. But I think if the election were held today with those numbers, Trump would have lost in a landslide. Not one.

And really, he just needs to look in the mirror because a lot of his ideas, a lot of Americans agreed with. That's why he was reelected. Immigration, the economy, his strong points. But his implementation of the plans is what has suffered. It's not necessarily the ideas. It's the way in which he goes about it, which has been a failure.

BOLDUAN: Yeah.

Max, midterms are often, or maybe I should say, always seen as a referendum on the party in power.

MAX ROSE (D), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Sure.

BOLDUAN: The way that President Trump's top advisers are saying they're approaching the midterms, though, is trying to portray it as a stark choice between two parties and just Democrats simply are worse at it.

Do you think they could be successful in this?

ROSE: Look, as a Democrat, I would say to my Republican friends, these numbers are not that bad. They shouldn't change a thing. Keep the -- keep -- keep the course.

BOLDUAN: No one be concerned, look away.

ROSE: Yeah, it's totally going to be fine for them. Look, these numbers are God-awful, and we're getting to the point in the electoral cycle where certainly, yes, independents matter. Perhaps the most. But what's a close second as well is the enthusiasm of your own party, particularly in a midterm election, when there's not a presidential top ticket and you couldn't possibly have numbers this low if your base also wasn't dramatically changing their sentiments away from you.

That's what Megyn Kelly has pointed to. Those are her viewers. So, this is a five-alarm fire for the Republicans on the Democratic side.

What they really have to be concerned about right now is discipline. No self-inflicted wounds. Keep calm.

BOLDUAN: Have you met either party before, Max? Because you've got plenty of time. It's plenty of self-inflicted wounds.

CARLSON: Much as I like Max. I will have to say that the Democrats also need to find a leader.

[19:25:00]

They need to coalesce around somebody. I don't think we know necessarily who that person might be yet, but they also need to go back to the basics of what they used to be strong at, which is the economy, the middle class, et cetera. So, I think there is still work to do on the Democratic side. I don't think they should run with these numbers and say, hey, it's going to be smooth sailing.

BOLDUAN: That's your general view, both of you on -- if -- okay, let's just God awful is where numbers are at right now. But the second question is always, is there enough time to turn it around? I mean, unlike the broad sense, I wonder if that's possible if you look at the economy, but when you look at how the president has talked about the war with Iran, it's either over or almost over and has been like that since the since the first attack, the way he talks about it.

There's -- even if it did end tomorrow, there is a political question in -- has lasting damage been done just in these 56 days politically already? I don't know, what do you think?

CARLSON: I think his base would come right back to him. Remember they reelected him because they were more isolationists. They didn't want to get America involved in any wars.

I think the biggest problem is going to be for him is the economy at this point, because you can't just reverse the increase in gas prices.

BOLDUAN: You can't message a way out of it, let's be honest.

CARLSON: No. And so, I think, you know, look at the bottom line. People vote with how they feel about the economy and 100 percent. And so that would be the first reason of how they will vote. But I do think you can turn this around.

The other thing I'll just quickly add is if Republicans want to be reelected for the midterms, they need to start distancing themselves from Trump. We saw that with Thom Tillis and what happened with the Fed chair. He said he wasn't going to vote for the new one if they continued to prosecute the old one. Guess what? They dropped that investigation.

Republicans have power if they want it.

ROSE: You know, my wife and I -- we took our little kids to one of those indoor playground gyms the other day. If you don't have little kids, I would recommend don't ever go to one of these things.

But he -- a guy came up to me, right? And this is on Staten Island. You know, plenty of Trump voters, majority Trump supporters.

And he said to me, we knew each other. He said, look, I'm MAGA through and through, but I didn't vote for America first, war with Iran.

This has hit home amongst the Trump base.

BOLDUAN: So, you think you think the damage has been done.

ROSE: Searing. Searing damage because it's so out in center that he lied. He clearly ran on ending forever wars and never committing to another forever war, to not being a president that engages in reckless war overseas. And look at what he's done.

It's so obvious, so clear, such a flagrant lie to his base that there very clearly angry and are leaning towards staying at home.

BOLDUAN: So uplifting, guys. It's great seeing you.

CARLSON: Happy Friday.

BOLDUAN: Happy Friday. Exactly.

OUTFRONT for us, next, the Pentagon suddenly fires the "Stars and Stripes" newspaper ombudsman. She says that she's being silenced after warning that Pete Hegseth was trying to control coverage. She's our guest.

Plus, the former top deputy for special counsel Jack Smith is OUTFRONT. He indicted Trump twice. He is now running for Congress. Would he back Democrats who are pushing to impeach Donald Trump once again?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:33:05]

BOLDUAN: Tonight, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth calling the war with Iran a gift to the world.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Iran will not have a nuclear weapon. It's a bold and dangerous mission, a gift to the world. Historic courtesy of a bold and historic president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: This as CNN learns new details about the sudden firing of the navy secretary in the middle of the war.

Kristen Holmes is OUTFRONT.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TRUMP: He's one of the most successful businessmen in the country, in our country. He's taking probably the largest salary cut in history, but he wanted to do it. He wants to rebuild our navy.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Trump had a clear mandate for his naval secretary, a so- called golden fleet of new battleships.

TRUMP: They'll be the fastest, the biggest, and by far 100 times more powerful than any battleship ever built.

HOLMES (voice-over): But to Trump, that wasn't happening fast enough. And this week he was fired. One of more than two dozen military officials ousted under Pete Hegseth.

TRUMP: He's a hard charger, and he had some conflicts with some other people, mostly as to building and buying new ships.

HOLMES (voice-over): The firing came as sources told CNN there was tension between Phelan and Secretary of Defense Pete Hhegseth, Hegseth, claiming Phelan was slow rolling the shipbuilding and was increasingly annoyed. Phelan, a billionaire Trump donor, would speak directly to the president.

Huddled at the White House Wednesday, Hegseth and Trump discussed shipbuilding and Trump, frustrated by the slow progress himself, became convinced Phelan needed to be replaced and told Hegseth to, quote, take care of it.

But Phelan refused to believe the call to resign or be fired from the secretary of defense. Even after the Pentagon spokesperson announced on X that Phelan would be departing, quote, effective immediately. Phelan showed up at the White House to hear the news from Trump himself.

[19:35:01]

Waiting for an hour, only for Trump to confirm his firing in a two- minute talk.

TRUMP: Got to get along, especially in the military. You got to get along, you know, and some people liked him. Some people didn't. And that's usually the truth about everything

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: Kate, what was quite fascinating was the fact that President Trump seemed to not want to completely burn Phelan. He posted that Phelan would be welcomed in the administration in a different role. It's a far departure from what we usually see from Donald Trump.

But again, all of this is coming at a critical time when the navy is basically in charge of what we are seeing in the Strait of Hormuz with that blockade. So, a lot of questions as to how that is going to impact what we are doing over in Iran.

BOLDUAN: It's great to see you, Kristen. Thank you so much at the White House for us.

Also at the Pentagon, another controversial firing with little explanation, according to our next guest.

OUTFRONT now is Jacqueline Smith, the ombudsman for "Stars and Stripes", suddenly fired just 24 hours ago. And "Stars and Stripes", you know, covers the U.S. military as partly funded by the Defense Department. And the ombudsman's job is to safeguard the publication's independence.

And here we are. Jackie, thank you for being here. Tell me, how did you hear this news?

JACQUELINE SMITH, STARS AND STRIPES NEWSPAPER OMBUDSMAN: Thank you. Kate. Thanks for your interest. Well, I heard the news Tuesday afternoon around 3:00. I had an email from the publisher of "Stars and Stripes". Can you talk?

Normally, I very much enjoy talking with him, but lately I knew that that was not going to be good news. So, he called me and he said, you know, I have to tell you this. I just received notice that, you're going to be off the payroll. And he sent me the form and we walked through it and it took a while for it to sink in. It was really kind of surprising that that would happen.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. I mean, "Stars and Stripes". Yeah. "Stars and Stripes" is just such a respected publication, and it means so much for military families around the world and far beyond the military. I mean, you're really given no reason for this.

SMITH: No reason at all. And the forum, which is just a very stark forum, also didn't give a reason. Okay. I had expected if there was some displeasure with my job, there would have been communication, you know, like, lets meet, let's talk about it. How can we make things work?

There was no indication that they were unhappy with the way I was conducting my job.

BOLDUAN: Okay. And "Stars and Stripes" is long enjoyed and been celebrated for its independence. And you -- and that's entirely the job of the ombudsman is to help maintain that independence.

After this, you wrote an op ed that was published in stars and stripes just yesterday. I want to read for everyone just a bit of it. It says, apparently you write the Pentagon also doesn't want you to hear from me anymore about threats to the editorial independence of "Stars and Stripes". They fired me.

And ahead of this, you had been outspoken. You had been vocal and critical of the Pentagon's moves here in their intervention, if you will, in in publication and throughout kind of reporting around the Pentagon, you have been a journalist for 40 years. Jackie, how threatened do you think the publication is and what impact this has and the moves that you see the Pentagon making?

SMITH: I think that there's a very real threat to their editorial independence. I think the Pentagon is taking steps to try to control the message through various ways to have more public affairs content, for example, to remove the requirement that the publisher is a civilian. So, they could put, you know, perhaps a military person in there. There's many ways.

And also, they're limiting -- not limiting -- they're eliminating, prohibiting use of syndicated material, which directly affects what readers can get. When I wrote a column about how they had -- "Stripes" had stopped the Sunday comics, eight pages of color comics. Wow. Readers were angry about that.

So, you know, I saw that happening. And it's my job to inform when I think that there are threats to the editorial independence. So, I was doing my job, speaking out about it, letting people hear about it, and they could decide whether it's acceptable. And especially congress.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, absolutely. And congress can and should pay attention to this.

Hegseth just last week, I wanted to ask you about some of what he did repeatedly invoking the Bible, but also specifically invoking the bible, comparing President Trump to Jesus, comparing the press to the pharisees who opposed and undermined Jesus. Let me play this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Our press are just like these pharisees, not all of you, not all of you, but the legacy Trump-hating press.

[19:40:03] Your politically motivated animus for President Trump, nearly completely blinds you from the brilliance of our American warriors. The pharisees scrutinized every good act in order to find a violation. Only looking for the negative.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: In watching Pete Hegseth as secretary of defense, do you think that the secretary believes these biblical comparisons, or do you think he is -- I don't know, just trying to keep his job?

SMITH: Well, okay, I've never met Pete Hegseth, so I have no idea what he's thinking. But it seems to me that the Bible has no place in the running of the Pentagon. The troops are made up of people of many different faiths, many different religions, some no religion. So, to focus on only one I think is very inappropriate. There should be a separation of church and state.

And of course, as a journalist, I think it's -- I really object to calling them pharisees. First of all, I don't know any journalists unless you're doing opinion, who has a political agenda. And it's not a journalists' job to make the president or Hegseth or anyone look good. It's just to tell the truth.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. And to ask questions that the Pentagon or no officials should be afraid of getting.

It's very good to see you, Jackie. Thank you very much for coming in. I really appreciate it.

OUTFRONT for us next, Trump's DOJ drops the investigation against Fed Chairman Jerome Powell. Another case against a Trump perceived enemy going nowhere for now. Former special counsel Jack Smith's top deputy is our guest next.

And women and weed. Dr. Sanjay Gupta looks at why more and more women are using marijuana during menopause.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:46:39]

BOLDUAN: Tonight, the Trump administration caves, dropping a criminal investigation that the president had long touted against Fed Chairman Jerome Powell. The U.S. attorney for D.C., Jeanine Pirro, made the announcement today, but with a caveat, saying this, "I will not hesitate to restart a criminal investigation should the facts warrant doing so."

OUTFRONT now, J.P. Cooney, former top deputy to special counsel Jack Smith, he was a lead prosecutor in both criminal indictments against President -- against Donald Trump, was fired from the Justice Department when the president took office last year. He is now running as a Democrat for Congress in Virginia.

I rarely have that long of an introduction that is so relevant to the topics at hand. J.P., thank you for being here.

J.P. COONEY, FORMER DEPUTY TO SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: Let me start with -- start with this issue at hand. Republicans, including Thom Tillis, who was holding up Trump's new Fed nominee over the Powell investigation. They have even called the investigation bogus. That's what Tillis called that investigation.

But what then, do you think of Pirro's -- I guess you can call it a threat to reopen the investigation if?

COONEY: That's exactly what it is. It is a threat. This -- the Powell investigation is a prime example of Trump's DOJ being converted to a weapon against his perceived political enemies. And he's holding that exact threat out there to try and discipline others who would challenge his authority.

BOLDUAN: But as we've seen, it hasn't been successful truly yet. I mean, you look at the -- any -- any indictment that was brought, they have been -- they've been dropped or challenged or thrown out. So, what do you think is going to be the end result?

COONEY: I believe the end result will be that this investigation will cease. Jerome Powell will never be prosecuted. But that doesn't mean that the threat of it couldn't have an influence on other individuals who are within the crosshairs of this administration, or who dare to challenge Donald Trump, his authority, his policies. This is classic weaponization or targeting by Trump's DOJ.

BOLDUAN: And as I listed out, kind of your -- your experience with the Justice Department and beyond is kind of part of what led you to where you are now, which is you're now running for Congress, you're running in a newly drawn district that really just came about with the Democratic effort in Virginia to redraw the lines more in Democrats favor. It was just approved by voters. The map would give Democrats potentially four more house seats in the commonwealth.

But a judge is now holding it up. And I'm wondering if this pause from the court becomes permanent. What do you do if you don't have a new district to run in?

COONEY: I'm confident that there will be a district to run in. This litigation is abusive. It is an attempt to stop the will of the people in the Commonwealth of Virginia.

Look, Virginians did an extraordinary thing on Tuesday. We voted in a public referendum about how it is that we want to be governed, to restore fair play to the U.S. Congress. And the will of the people is not going to be undone by this litigation.

BOLDUAN: But if -- and you have to consider it, would you run against Vindman in his in his district?

COONEY: I entered into this race to provide leadership for the nation in this temporary seat. And so that is the seat I'm running for. That seat is established. [19:50:00]

And I'm confident that it will -- that it will survive the court challenges because the people have made this decision in a public referendum in Virginia.

BOLDUAN: I mentioned you indicted Donald Trump twice, and I bring this up in the case of what happens if you win? There is a new push among some House Democrats to move to impeach President Trump on day one. If Democrats win the majority in the House. If you win your race, do you want to see an impeachment vote right away?

COONEY: Yes. Donald Trump needs to be impeached. I saw his crimes up front as Jack Smith's deputy special counsel, and it has only gotten worse. I am running for Congress to finish the job, to hold Donald Trump accountable for his crimes to the nation.

BOLDUAN: But, J.P., what do you say to top Democrats? Just talked to Greg Meeks today. And he said, we don't have time for this because you wouldn't -- it wouldn't get through -- it wouldn't get through the Congress. It wouldn't get through the Senate. So, it would be essentially, he was saying, it's not worth our time to focus on impeachment.

COONEY: Democrats and members of Congress need to be leaders in this country. You can take your pick of high crimes that Donald Trump has committed against the nation, threatening to destroy a civilization because he launched a war that has no basis in law or fact, sanctioning the killing of citizens, engaged in peaceful protests, ordering illegal and immoral deportations, turning the Justice Department into a weapon against people he believes are his political enemies, and engaging in unprecedented self-dealing and corruption in the White House.

Any single one of these constitutes a high crime. Taken together, they pose the gravest threat to the rule of law, to economic security, to democracy that our country has ever faced. Democrats need to step up and lead and confront MAGA Republicans with Donald Trump's crimes and make them choose between our democracy and the rule of law, or Donald Trump's lawlessness

BOLDUAN: J.P. Cooney, thank you for coming in. I appreciate your time tonight.

COONEY: Thank you.

BOLDUAN: OUTFRONT for us next, women now increasingly turning to pot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt instant relief.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Wow. Did that surprise you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, it shocked me. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: Dr. Sanjay Ggupta with his new series, tells us why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:56:35]

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: OUTFRONT tonight, pot for menopause. More and more women using cannabis to help with menopause symptoms after other treatments weren't working.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta explores the growing use of pot among women, in particular in his latest documentary of his "Weed" series. Take a look at this

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: Is it the general approach to say, look, we've tried everything and now we're going to do cannabis? Or is it thought of increasingly as a first line therapy?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I generally see people who have tried pretty much everything. I almost always say this is sort of like a last-ditch effort.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We grab your med cards, please.

GUPTA (voice-over): That was the case for Brenda Soukas (ph) and her daughter, Anna Hansen (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You also have $10 in loyalty points.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, awesome.

GUPTA (voice-over): They started using cannabis when it became medically legal in Oklahoma.

Brenda has been a longtime sufferer of fibromyalgia, a painful autoimmune disorder which intensified during menopause.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt instant relief.

GUPTA: Wow. Did that surprise you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, it shocked me. It shocked me because I'd been in pain for years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BURNETT: And Dr. Sanjay Gupta is here with me now.

So. Gosh, I mean, Sanjay -- this is a situation women are. There is perhaps no hotter market than perimenopausal, menopausal products from lotions and creams to HRT, you name it, across the board. What about cannabis for perimenopause and menopause? GUPTA: This surprised me. You know, we went into this documentary

because we, we were hearing so many more women were using cannabis for all sorts of things, but we didn't know. What we figured it was for sleep and for pain and for mood, which are sort of the big three.

But, you know, women between the ages of 45 and 60, I think, in large part because they haven't had a lot of great options to treat menopause. Up until this past year, you know, there was a black box warning on hormone replacement therapy.

BURNETT: Right.

GUPTA: So, I think a lot of women were just confused by this. And yet they were having significant symptoms. There were groups of women who were using cannabis for menopause. Other women like Stacey Gruber, who you just saw there who were collecting the data.

BURNETT: Yeah.

GUPTA: And I think it's really come into vogue. You know, we were in Oklahoma and, you know, a place that this traditionally conservative heartland state, and it's one of the places where they were using it the most for.

BURNETT: They were using it the most for menopause.

GUPTA: Yeah.

BURNETT: I mean, that is fascinating. So, I mean, it's part of something broader as, as you talk about, obviously, for women in certain age range, but also women overall.

GUPTA: Yes.

BURNETT: That somehow they are using now cannabis more than men?

GUPTA: They are. And again, this was the thing that I think initially attracted us to this whole thing. For the first time, women are outpacing men when it comes to cannabis use.

But let me tell you something else interesting. It is women between the ages of 45 and 60 that are really driving.

BURNETT: They are the drivers.

GUPTA: So, you think in college students you're thinking sort of that age range. It's totally flipped. Since we started reporting on cannabis, you know, 12, 13 years ago now, it's completely flipped.

And I think in large part, women are using it more for medicinal reasons. The men who are using it are using it more for recreational reasons. I think it's because women just haven't had a lot of options.

You know, women aren't part of a lot of the trials for all sorts of things, leaving menopause aside.

BURNETT: Yeah.

GUPTA: You know, whether it comes to things like pain, things like Alzheimer's, whatever it might be, even though women are more likely to suffer from those things, they are less likely to be part of trials. So, in some ways, it's no surprise that that cannabis has, you know, sort of really risen up there.

BURNETT: To fill -- to fill a gap.

GUPTA: Yeah, exactly.

BURNETT: All right. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, thank you.

And thanks so much for joining us tonight.

"AC360" starts now.