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Campbell Brown

Will a Nasty Campaign Hurting Democratic Party?; Former Mayor Willie Brown Thinks Campaign Competition is Key

Aired March 26, 2008 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Lou.
We start tonight with the unrelenting nastiness of the Democratic campaign and major concerns that the ongoing sniping will lead to a party in peril come November.

The Clinton/Obama attacks have been increasingly hostile ever since the South Carolina primary in January and reaching a fever pitch in recent weeks. We are going to tell you how it played out today.

Meanwhile, John McCain gives a major foreign policy speech rejecting the cowboy diplomacy of the Bush administration and getting deeply personal talking about the war.

But we're going to start tonight with the Democrats and all their sniping. This afternoon, in North Carolina, Obama seemed to be saying, it's time to cool it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Senator Clinton is a smart person, and she's a capable person. And I -- you know, I want to make sure that the tone of this campaign remains -- creates the situation where Democrats are going to win in November.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: But campaigning in West Virginia today, Bill Clinton didn't seem to have gotten the memo to play nice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If a politician doesn't want to get beat up, he shouldn't run for office. If a football player doesn't want to get tackled and want the risk of an occasional clip, he shouldn't put the pads on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: Well, the campaign may be called spirited. That's what Senator Clinton had to say about it, but it is creating some hard feelings that aren't confined to just the candidates.

A new poll out suggests that Democratic voters seem to be gearing up for a revolt, too. So, let's head out to the campaign trail and get a read on all this. Our own Jessica Yellin was at Hillary Clinton's rally that happened in Washington. It is just wrapping up there.

And, Jessica, I know you have been talking to a lot of candidates. It is getting pretty nasty. How worried are they about what a lot of them saw as a sure thing at one point sort of slipping through their fingers possibly?

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, they are worried. They thought that this is a race that's theirs to lose. If the Democrats can't win this one, they think, what can they win?

And the anxiety here is they now see a way that they could let it slip through their fingers, if they have an ongoing nasty fight, if they have a brokered convention, if there's increasing bitterness within the party. They are deeply concerned that it will just go to John McCain, people will stay home, and they won't vote.

And one of the biggest concerns is that they know that as one Clinton supporter put it to me, her only real route to victory is if the Obama campaign collapses and then she gains momentum and pushes on. The only way she -- he collapses is if there's ongoing nastiness.

So, there's no sign of this party unifying anytime soon in the primary season. So, that's causing a lot of concern. I grade as a heartburn at this point and not yet a full-blown anxiety attack, but that's next.

C. BROWN: And, Jessica, though, if you look at the poll numbers -- and I want to show some in just a second -- that are rattling people's nerves, there's a Gallup poll out. It's not just about people staying home, but a Gallup poll that says 19 percent of Obama supporters would vote for McCain over Clinton and 28 percent of Clinton supporters say that they would vote for McCain over Obama. I mean, you look at numbers like that and you think, team McCain has got to be jumping up and down right now.

YELLIN: Yes. And I will tell you, I hear it on the road. I talked to a woman who is a Clinton supporter who said, I don't care what happens. If Clinton doesn't win, I will never vote for Obama. I'm going to vote Republican for the first time in my life.

So, you know, that's not the vast majority of people, but you do hear it. And the problem is, this is such a sea change from what we saw out here in, say, Iowa, where you would hear people say, we have two great candidates. We're thrilled with our choices. And we just prefer this one.

Now this bitterness has increased to such a point that they are really saying that they can't stomach the other guy. Now, there's a chance that that could change once we start seeing negative ads and once they are faced up against John McCain for real. But, right now, there is a real bitterness on the two sides among their activists -- Campbell.

C. BROWN: All right, Jessica Yellin for us with Hillary Clinton tonight in Washington, D.C. -- Jessica, thanks.

I want to turn now to an experienced hand at Democratic Party politics, San Francisco's former Mayor Willie Brown. He has not endorsed or contributed to either Clinton or Obama. We should mention that right up top.

Mayor Brown, welcome to you.

I know you are an insider. What's your sense of what's going on within the party right now? Is there a sense of panic?

WILLIE BROWN (D), FORMER MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: No, I don't think there's a sense of panic at all, Campbell. I think that it's the natural activities that happens in a heated political contest. And, believe me, I think it's healthy for this party, not injurious to this party.

C. BROWN: But what do you think when you see a poll like the one we just mentioned that says basically a big chunk of Democrats are going to pack the Republicans if their guy or their girl doesn't get the nomination?

W. BROWN: I don't believe the poll and I don't believe them. How in the name of heaven can anybody say who is a true Democrat that they are going to be embracing John McCain? You can't do that. The war and the extension of what Bush is all about is all contained in who McCain is. No Democrat is going to do that.

C. BROWN: But, clearly, there -- there are hurt feelings or there -- I mean, Jessica is hearing it from the people she talks to out on the road. There's got to be some sort of healing process. And given the -- at the rate we're going, I guess, is there enough time for that to happen once there is a nominee?

W. BROWN: There will be. There will be plenty of time, believe me. Democrats had Al Gore, and it was all a love fest. They lost. Democrats had John Kerry, a love fest. They lost. The bitterness between John Kerry and Howard Dean -- Howard Dean ended up being the national Democratic chair.

This is not a blood operation. This is people trying desperately to win. When they have lost, they will then do what we all do in politics, is live to fight another day.

C. BROWN: But are they not also with these attacks giving John McCain a certain amount of ammunition, which he will then use during the general election battle?

W. BROWN: If John McCain didn't have the ammunition supplied by Democrats, he would simply make it up, believe me. His game plan is exactly that. He doesn't need any new ammunition. He's going to say whatever he's going to say about Obama. He's going to say what he says about Clinton.

But keep in mind, Clinton and Obama's comments are all intramural. They are all internal. McCain is not going to waste any time on that.

C. BROWN: So how does all this get resolved? You have heard what Nancy Pelosi, for example, has suggested, which is that the superdelegates should go to whoever gets the most pledged delegates. Do you think that most Democrats are on board with that?

W. BROWN: No, not at all, simply because we set this thing up starting in 1972 in the McGovern operation. We evolved to 1984, when we had the first superdelegates. Superdelegates are the people who have the best interests of the party at heart. They are no different from a delegate in a particular state.

You run to be a pledged delegate. A superdelegate is unpledged. A superdelegate is not by any stretch of the imagination instructed by anybody. They are supposed to take into consideration what's in the best interests of the party.

(CROSSTALK)

C. BROWN: But not everybody agrees with you. And not everybody agrees with you within the party. And given that, it's just hard to see how this can be resolved quickly or easily or without a lot of just angst between now and convention time.

W. BROWN: My 40 years of being involved in politics has always been controlled by obedience to the rules. You don't change the rules to suit your situation. Democrats would be foolish to do that. I think, on merit, most Democrats will vote whomever they think is the best candidate.

They don't need any pre-fixing. And I hope both Obama and Hillary stop trying to figure out how to pre-fix, but let people on merit make the determination as to whether or not that candidacy makes any sense.

C. BROWN: Well, Willie Brown, Mayor Willie Brown, I know there are a lot of Democrats out there who probably hope you are right about all this. Appreciate your time tonight.

W. BROWN: Thank you.

C. BROWN: Long and ugly primary fights generally don't bode well for the party involved come November. Remember when these guys went at it? We're going to look at the long term. Well, these guys, those guys, are they there?

We will look at the long-term consequences of nasty, drawn-out campaigns. I will also ask my political panel if there's a silver lining to the long fight between Clinton and Obama.

And then later, John McCain says he hates war, but defends the war in Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. We're talking about whether the Democrats' political infighting and the battle for the nomination could turn into a circular firing squad.

You know, both parties have actually been here before. Do you remember 1976? Ronald Reagan nearly knocked off incumbent President Gerald Ford during the Republican primaries and upstaged him the final night of the convention. Ford lost in November.

And, in 1980, it was the Democrats. Ted Kennedy lost a bruising round of primaries to Jimmy Carter. There was no masking the hard feelings on stage at what was supposed to be the triumphal moment of party unity. A grim-faced Kennedy barely spent any time posing for pictures with his rival. And Carter went on to lose.

Four years later, 1984, Walter Mondale came to the convention ahead in delegates, but his rival, Gary Hart, had won more popular votes in the primaries. The superdelegates went for Mondale, giving him the nomination, but he lost in November.

So, it's no surprise, then, that many Democrats are on edge, worrying that history could repeat itself this fall.

Well, tonight's panel includes some battle-scarred political veterans. We have got conservative Tony Blankley, who was Newt Gingrich's press secretary. He's now executive vice president with Edelman P.R. and he writes a column for "The Washington Times." And with him also in Washington is CNN contributor Paul Begala, a survivor of Bill Clinton's '92 campaign, as well as a stint at the Clinton White House.

(LAUGHTER)

C. BROWN: And then joining me here in New York is Katrina Vanden Heuvel. And she's the editor of the left-leaning weekly -- is that the right to say it, left-leaning?

(CROSSTALK)

KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, "THE NATION": Well, I'm not a battle-scarred veteran. Let's put it that way.

C. BROWN: No, you're not. OK.

(LAUGHTER)

C. BROWN: The left-leaning weekly "The Nation."

Anyway, great to have everybody here.

(CROSSTALK)

VANDEN HEUVEL: Thank you.

C. BROWN: Paul, let me start with you because your former boss had something to say today about where all this is heading. And let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

W. CLINTON: I have already had four people come up to me and say, tell her not to quit. And I want to tell you something. My family is not big on quitting. You have probably noticed that.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: So, Paul, is he saying that there is basically no way that Hillary Clinton is getting out of this race before the convention?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I wouldn't say before the convention, no, but before all the votes are cast, certainly, and nor should she. It's not in her character. It's also not in her interests. I don't think it's in the Democratic Party's interests either.

Everywhere the Hillary and Barack show has gone, we have gotten more voters, more volunteers, more contributors, more excitement, and a greater chance of carrying that state in the general election. Even some of the most Republican states in the union, we're setting record turnout numbers.

So, I think it's been nothing but good. And anybody who thinks Hillary is getting out of this race before the votes are all cast and counted doesn't know Hillary. It's about as likely, to quote those great philosophers from "Wayne's World," as -- what do they say, and monkeys fly out my butt? It ain't going to happen. I don't know why there's any conjecture that it might.

C. BROWN: OK. So, Tony, though, I mean, if they are waiting for the votes to be counted, we know -- or we can sort of approximate -- that it's still going to come down to the superdelegates, right? So, they would then have to make a decision before the convention. How do you see this playing out?

TONY BLANKLEY, EDITORIAL PAGE EDITOR, "THE WASHINGTON TIMES": Well, I don't know how it plays out. I think it could easily go to the convention. But your examples of tough primaries not being good were only examples where there was an incumbent who was challenged.

But if you look at 1980, we Republicans had a tough campaign. Reagan won the nomination eventually, after voodoo economics and the rest had been thrown on him, went on to win.

In '92, Clinton had a darn hard campaign. All of this stuff about the Flowers and the draft was all thrown up in his face. He came on and won a victory.

I happen to agree with Willie Brown. I think the Democrats are in very good stead. All of the anger, most of it will be gone. The winner will be battle-hardened. And you are going to test to find out whether either of these candidates have a glass jaw. We don't know whether Obama has got a glass jaw or Hillary for that matter.

And so I think, if I were a Democrat, I would be glad to see them put themselves through their paces and find out who is going to -- who is the stronger candidate. I think the superdelegates will end up voting for whoever they think can win. And all the rest of this moral theories will just go by the way.

(CROSSTALK)

C. BROWN: What kind of shape is the eventual nominee going to be in if they go through this week after week after week?

VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes. You know, Campbell, let me just take it outside the horse race for a moment and take it to the voters. I do think that what we're seeing in this historic race, unprecedented, record-breaking turnout, in Pennsylvania, four million registered, breaking all records.

You have mobilization, you have organization from the grassroots, people participating for the first time. I think it's good for the party.

I think what is not good for the party is that you come to the end of this Democratic process where citizens are participants, not just spectators, and the superdelegates, which, let us remember, were created as a firewall to protect the party establishment -- if they then thwart the will of the people, of the pledged delegates, of the popular vote, I think then you have an ugly situation.

Let us hope it doesn't get there, and let's hope that some of these tired political games end with the squabbling and that real issues that millions of Americans care about are addressed.

C. BROWN: Tony, let me ask you. Is this race unfolding in a way where you think that there is one of these candidates now that Republicans would rather take on?

BLANKLEY: No. There's a real debate going on, on the Republican side. Here's the quick handicap. Hillary has a low ceiling and a high floor. She probably can't get more than 52 percent of the popular vote or less than 48 percent.

Obama has a higher potential floor and a higher potential -- lower potential floor and a higher ceiling. He could be as high as 57 percent, 58 percent, if race is not biting hard on this. If race bites hard in the general election and he's the nominee, he could be down in the low to mid-40s.

So, you are kind of betting with Obama that race won't be the issue, and then you hope to have a big, blowout election and elect a lot of Democrats down-ticket. With Hillary, you won't get the big blowout. I would hunch that she's a little bit more likely to win it all. But, on our side, this debate is furious about who we would rather run against.

C. BROWN: OK. We're going to take a quick break. The panel is sticking around.

But, coming up, how are voters responding to all the campaign nastiness? When we come back, the psychology of negativity and how it can sometimes work to a candidate's advantage.

And John McCain is breaking from Bush on foreign policy, suggesting an end to cowboy diplomacy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: John McCain reaching out today and not just to voters, but to the world. He was laying out his approach to foreign policy. McCain said America needs to reach out to its allies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When we believe international action is necessary, whether military, economic or diplomatic, we will try to persuade our friends that we are right. But we in return must be willing to be persuaded by them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: Somewhat of a contrast with the policies of the current Republican president, who has been harshly criticized overseas for all too often going it alone, contrary to the wishes of America's allies.

Well, Dana Bash is joining us now with more of a look at McCain's world view.

And, Dana, let me ask you first, McCain has given plenty of speeches about Iraq. But today, the argument he made felt very personal. And let's listen to just a brief bit of it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCAIN: I hold my position because I hate war, and I know very well and very personally how grievous its wages are. But I know, too, that we must sometimes pay those wages to avoid paying even higher ones later on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: Dana, what was he trying to get across there?

DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it was really interesting, Campbell. What he was trying to get across is the fact that he understands that his position on the war, which is to stay in Iraq, really does define his candidacy, but he also knows that he's defying public opinion in doing that.

So, what he's trying to do, as you said, is bring in his personal experiences. He talked about the fact that he's a part of three generations of service, not just his own service as a Vietnam POW, but his father, his grandfather. So, he was trying to say, look, I understand how horrible -- I know firsthand how horrible war is. So, if I'm saying it's important to stay in Iraq, you have to trust me on that, really trying to lay a contrast in terms of the experience, which we have heard so much on the Democratic side, sort of across party lines, and saying, I understand what it's like.

I understand that I should -- I should be the one who would not want to go to war. But we have to stay there and you have got to listen to me. It was sort of an interesting twist in the argument that, just like you said, he makes over and over again about staying in Iraq.

C. BROWN: The other thing I want to get your take on is, it did seem that he was going out of his way in many ways to distinguish himself from President Bush today.

BASH: He absolutely was. In the clip that you played in the intro there, Campbell, it's not just about contrasting his world view with Democrats. It is very much about contrasting his world view with President Bush.

You know, Campbell, you and I covered I think the beginning of the Iraq war together, and we watched President Bush. And that's where he got his reputation as maybe somebody who is in cowboy diplomacy, if you will.

What John McCain did today, not just in terms of potentially a potential military action, but also in terms of climate change, in terms of Guantanamo Bay, closing Guantanamo Bay, in terms of a policy not wanting to torture prisoners, those are all things we have heard before.

But the fact that he decided to package it all together was very much to let the world know, let Democrats, independent voters know that he's going to have a different point of view if he is the president than the current Republican president.

C. BROWN: All right, Dana Bash, who is covering McCain. Thanks, Dana. Appreciate it.

BASH: Thank you.

C. BROWN: Minutes ago, I spoke with a McCain supporter and a fellow member of the Armed Services Committee who had accompanied McCain on his recent tour of Europe and the Middle East, South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham.

Senator Lindsey Graham, welcome to you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you for having me.

C. BROWN: Senator McCain's world view, as you know, is very different from President Bush on a lot of issues.

And let me just mention a few: global warming, closing down Guantanamo Bay, creating what he described as a league of democracies, which sounded to sort of like a United Nations for our friends. Are those concepts that you honestly think Republicans are going to get behind?

GRAHAM: Well, I think the global climate change debate is something our party ought to get behind and be involved in.

John has gone down the road less travelled in many areas and that being one of them. I believe climate change is real. I believe it offers an opportunity to engage Europe and other parts of the world to create new technologies to make the planet cleaner and to help our economy. So, I support Senator McCain on that.

Guantanamo Bay -- I have been a military lawyer for 25 years -- it has really hurt our image. Abu Ghraib and these other episodes and regarding detainee treatment has put us back. John wants to win the war. I want to win the war. The way you win the war is, you showcase your values. And I think our values are so much superior than our enemies. And when we capture somebody, Campbell, it becomes about us, not about them.

So, John has been his own man. I think the world will respect John, whether you agree with him or not. I think there's a lot of admiration for who he is and what he's done.

C. BROWN: No matter what he says, though, or how he tries to define himself, there are a lot of people out there who are going to think of John McCain as the Iraq war candidate. And even with the gains made by the troop surge, you know that's an unpopular place to be in this country.

GRAHAM: Yes. The one thing that I know about Senator McCain, at every turn, he's put the country ahead of all else. Climate change, detainee treatment, campaign finance reform, the gang of 14, things that have been controversial, immigration on our side, John has chosen to take on the hard issues. And, at the end of the day, Iraq is a great battle, ideological struggle.

And, Campbell, you either win a war or you lose a war. And when John said he would rather lose an election than lose a war, he meant it. And I think he will be proven right. It will be one of the issues that will define John, I think in a positive way. Nobody likes being at war.

Just ask those who have been in it. But John McCain is supporting the surge was the right strategy. He understands what was failing. He had the political courage to change it.

C. BROWN: All right.

GRAHAM: He wanted more troops because that's what was necessary, not what was popular. I think he will get a lot of points with the American people, whether they agree with him or not. C. BROWN: We mentioned earlier some of the specific policy differences he has with President Bush. But it's more than that. He also, as he described it today anyway, has a very different world view. How does his world view differ from the Bush world view?

GRAHAM: I don't think that I can describe it different than a person. I can just say it's unique based on experience, life experiences. The thing that draws me to John's campaign more than anything else is his personal courage, his political courage and his understanding of history.

I think John believes that our country is destined to lead. And leadership in the 21st century, with a complicated world, is different than leadership right after World War II, where we were the supreme power.

I think what John understands better than anybody I have ever met is that partnerships for the good are necessary. And he has the ability, I think, to form partnerships, domestically and internationally that will make us safer.

C. BROWN: All right. Senator Lindsey Graham, appreciate your time tonight.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

C. BROWN: What if the world could vote? People all over the planet are picking their favorite candidates. We're going to show you where and who would they would choose on Election Day.

And then, "Hasta la vista" meets "Make my day." What's up with the split between the Terminator and Dirty Harry?

We have got all that coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: While John McCain talked about how he sees the world today, "The Wall Street Journal" had a report on how the world sees him and the other candidates. It says that Clinton is well liked among Mexicans and Chinese apparently because they think she would promote free trade like her husband did. Also, in Colombia and Israel where security concerns were a big priority.

But in Indonesia and the Middle East, and especially in Kenya, Obama is particularly popular because of his roots. While in Germany, he's compared to JFK.

And then John McCain, well, he's the only candidate actually to have campaigned overseas in the Middle East and in Europe. But apparently, not a whole lot of support.

Anyway, we're going to bring back our political panel, Tony Blankley, Paul Begala and Katrina vanden Heuvel, who's here with me in the studio.

Katrina, let me start with you. You know, McCain today with this big address was making his case that even though he's with George Bush on the war in Iraq, he is going to be a very different kind of world leader. How did he do?

VANDEN HEUVEL: You know, I think it makes common sense to close down Guantanamo, to understand the perils of climate change. But fundamentally, John McCain is not a realist. He said he was, but the walk is of a true neocon.

I mean, if he was a realist, he would understand that America can't afford a 10-year quagmire in Iraq with all the cost and lives, tax dollars and the global reputation. But even more than that, if he says personally he is a man of the military, his policies would undermine, destroy a military that's already stretched to the breaking point.

And finally, one thing that's so interesting, Campbell, is he talks about this league of democracies. He relishes provoking Russia. He is a true cold warrior. I'm no supporter of George W. Bush, but he's engaged Russia diplomatically.

We need Russia if we're going to deal with nuclear proliferation, Islamic extremism and the Middle East and Afghanistan and Iran. So I think it's a very complicated speech, but a true neocon at the end of the day.

C. BROWN: OK. Tony, let me throw this at you because I don't know that I would entirely agree with Katrina on that. Because if you look at the nitty-gritty of some of the things he said, forming this international league of democracies that sounds sort of like a U.N., closing down Guantanamo, confronting global warming.

VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes.

C. BROWN: I mean, to a lot of Republicans, he sounds like a Democrat, doesn't he?

BLANKLEY: Yes, he does. I think this is a red letter day for Katrina to be saying something nice about George Bush's foreign policy. We must be in a campaign season.

Look, I think there's no doubt that McCain's fundamental foreign policy is not going to be different than -- much different than Bush's. Totally, it will be a little different. Certainly on issues like Guantanamo and torture, it is different.

But if you could think back to Bush in the early years, he was talking about reaching out. He went to the U.N. in 2002. He tried to -- he rejected Cheney's suggestion that we didn't need to go to the U.N. before the war. Things turned out rhetorically differently.

So I don't think it's a big change. I think McCain does hurt himself with Republicans with his global warming tour. This is not going to generate -- it's going to make some of us worried that he's going to raise taxes at some point. So I don't think it helps him too much with his base. His base will come out and vote for him but without a lot of enthusiasm.

C. BROWN: Right.

BLANKLEY: I don't think he wins or loses this campaign on the war. I think this campaign is going to be fought about the economy. And unless he addresses that in a way the public finds convincing, he's not going to be able to sustain a victory.

C. BROWN: Paul, you may agree with that, Paul. I'm not sure about the economy being the primary issue. But do you think on his foreign policy that Democrats are going to paint him as sort of bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran or his other line about we're going to be in Iraq for 100 years?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Right. I mean, I think today's speech was fraudulent extreme. And I can't imagine any sensible person buying that he would be -- there would be a dime's worth of difference between John McCain and George Bush. He's running as a third term for George W. Bush.

Remember when Dick Cheney said we'll be greeted as liberators? Four days later, John McCain repeated that. So we'll be greeted as liberators. Remember when George W. Bush said mission accomplished. A few months later, John McCain repeated that, mission accomplished.

Remember when Paul Wolfowitz said that Iraqi oil revenue will pay for the rebuilding and reconstruction of Iraq. Guess what? Months before that, John McCain had already said the same thing. I mean, he is closer to W than XY and Z put together. He can try to run from Bush but he can't hide.

VANDEN HEUVEL: But Paul, he's also, I would say that he is a combination of George W. Bush and Herbert Hoover. The talk of the economy is real, and you have a John McCain who says he doesn't really care about the economy, seems clueless about what to do. And you can't separate the costs of war from our recession. And if you are going to take Iraq -- America into Iraq for 10 years, 100 years of occupation, we can't afford that.

I would also say I'm not supporting George W. Bush, Tony. George W. Bush has alienated --

(CROSSTALK)

C. BROWN: I knew that.

VANDEN HEUVEL: George W. Bush has alienated Russia and fueled a new cold war with Russia. But I think John McCain wants to subvert the United Nations with this new league of democracy and make a more difficult cold war.

C. BROWN: All right.

BLANKLEY: Oh, look. I think -- C. BROWN: Last word. Quick, quick, quick, Tony.

BLANKLEY: This is getting a little thick. I mean, McCain is a deeply respected figure around the world. In the Pentagon, he's much more respected than Bush is.

C. BROWN: All right.

BLANKLEY: And while I have a lot of grievances with him, I support him. I have a lot of grievance with him. He is going to, I think, be a strong candidate on the foreign policy area.

C. BROWN: Got to end it there. To Katrina, to Tony, to Paul, thank you all. Appreciate your time.

BLANKLEY: Thank you.

BEGALA: Thanks.

C. BROWN: Coming up next, one blogger calls the Democratic presidential campaign poisonous and it's going downhill from there. We're going to have more on what's consuming the blogosphere about this campaign. What they're all talking about coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: In other political news now, the controversy over Reverend Wright's high-octane sermon just refuses to die down. Barack Obama again tried to cool the debate today saying people should not get up in arms every time somebody says something stupid. The Reverend Wright canceled another appearance today for security reasons, dropping a regular appearance at a Houston Baptist church for the first time in two decades.

And a surprise move from the very laconic one-time Democratic presidential candidate, Mike Gravel. The former Alaska senator is leaving the Democratic Party and joining the Libertarian Party competing for their presidential nomination.

Clint Eastwood is walking off into the sunset from his job as a California State Parks commissioner. His old friend, California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, terminated Eastwood's contract as a park commissioner. Schwarzenegger wants to build a six-lane toll highway near a world famous surfer's beach. Eastwood used to surf there and he was opposed to it, so Schwarzenegger had the last word.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, ACTOR, "THE TERMINATOR": Hasta la vista, baby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: OK. Indeed. So, how do voters ultimately make their choice? I'm going to ask a psychologist what really pushes the voters' buttons. That's coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: We have been talking a lot about the concern that Democrats have that -- or many Democrats have that the party may implode come November with all the bickering that the two candidates are having with each other. But could there be a silver lining to all this negativity?

Joining me now, psychologist and author of "The Political Brain: The Role of Emotion in Deciding the Fate of the Nation." That's Drew Westen.

Welcome to you. Appreciate you being with us.

DREW WESTEN, AUTHOR, "THE POLITICAL BRAIN": Nice to be here. Thanks, Campbell.

C. BROWN: So voters have been hearing some pretty blistering stuff from the campaign trail this week. How are they processing it from a psychological point of view? Explain that to us.

WESTEN: Well, what voters mostly process is gut-level reactions about how they feel about the candidates. In some ways, they listen less to the words they do than the way the words are spoken and to what the words all add up to emotionally.

C. BROWN: Yes, I want to play an ad and this is an ad that gave a big boost to Hillary Clinton then we'll talk about it on the other side. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your vote will decide who answers that call. Whether it's someone who already knows the world's leaders, knows the military, someone tested and ready to lead in a dangerous world. It's 3:00 a.m. and your children are safe and asleep. Who do you want answering the phone?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: You know, the most effective campaign ads do play off of people's emotions. What feelings do you think that 3:00 a.m. ad was tapping into?

WESTEN: Well, it was clearly designed to elicit fear and fear that the other guy, the other guy running against her who might answer that phone wouldn't know what to do when the phone rang.

C. BROWN: The big question we're talking about tonight is will Democratic voters be able to bounce back from a bruising primary, sort of rally around their party's nominee. You are a psychologist. You know, will there be scars here?

WESTEN: Well, clearly there are going to be scars at this point because things have gotten pretty ugly. And what we're starting to see with those poll numbers showing, 28 percent of Hillary Clinton supporters now saying that they would not support Barack Obama and would support McCain.

You know, it's early and those kind of numbers change when it gets close to the general election. But clearly, what's happening is that people are starting to lay down some emotional associations to these candidates. And this is the kind of thing that isn't good for the Democrats.

C. BROWN: So sort of bottom line it for us. You know, when it really comes down to it, is it issues? Is it personality? You know, do voters really decide with their heads or with their hearts?

WESTEN: Well, it comes down to what that great unsung political strategist Ella Fitzgerald said. "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing." If you want to sway voters, you have to sway them. And what people are swayed by is not typically 10-point plans or, you know, long debates about mandates from -- for health care. It's, do they have a good gut level feeling about you and does that good gut level feeling overtake the negative gut level feeling they might have.

C. BROWN: It's interesting stuff. All right. Drew Westen, thanks for your time tonight. Appreciate it.

The brutal fight between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton for the Democratic presidential election has spread far beyond the radio airwaves. Americans are also carrying the fight to the Internet, lighting up the blogosphere, and we are going there coming up.

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": We'll grapple with a heavyweight of a show tonight. The stars of the WWE are here. Triple H., John Cena, Chris Jericho, Big Show, Floyd Mayweather, and the man responsible for all the mayhem, Vince McMahon.

And if that's not enough enticement, yours truly will take a spin around the ring, too. You don't want to miss that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: On talk radio, the callers are pretty used to the dirty politics of presidential campaigning. But that doesn't mean they are happy about it.

Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CURTIS SILWA, WABC: All of a sudden in the heat of the campaign, sniper fire appears. You are going to give her a pass on that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Listen. It was definitely, you know, still firefights going on in a distance. So if she, you know, she didn't say it was directed at her, she just mentioned it was sniper fire. You got to give it a pass.

DOUG MCINTYRE, KABC: But there are no policy, real policy differences. No ideological differences. So the campaigns and the contests invariably become personal. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not kindergarten where you are supposed to play nice. This is politics. You are running for the highest office in the land.

LORRAINE JACQUES WHITE, WAOK: And if you want to win, you got to play even when it means dirty?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: And so, the increasingly bitter battle, not only lighting up the radio dials for talk show hosts but it is also flaring up in the blogosphere.

And joining me now, we've got the prominent liberal blogger, Ezra Klein, who is the associate editor with the blog at "American Prospect" magazine.

Welcome to you. Conservative blogger Ed Morrisey, from HotAir.com, and Amanda Carpenter is also a conservative Republican blogger at townhall.com.

Welcome to all of you.

ED MORRISSEY, BLOGGER, HOTAIR.COM: How are you doing?

C. BROWN: Good, thanks.

Ezra, I'm going to start with you because the left side of the blogosphere is keeping pretty close tabs on what's going on with the Democratic race. What's their take on it especially what we've been talking about tonight, how much this could potentially hurt the party come November?

EZRA KLEIN, BLOGGER, "AMERICAN PROSPECT": Their take is it's been brutal. And I think that there's begun to be a dawning realization this is going to go on for a very long time. But more to the point that if you let it go on for a long time and if you let yourself be taken in with it, that you're not going to have any time in the general election.

If this goes until August, you have two months of general campaigning. You have two months to talk about John McCain's record. You have two months to draw those distinctions. And I think that there is a growing fear that if the party doesn't get its act together and if the choice isn't either made or if the two candidates don't begin to concentrate their fire forward instead of to the side, they're going to have an issue where at the end of the day you got two good candidates but they never get a chance to make their case. And John McCain sort of sits in the background...

C. BROWN: Right.

KLEIN: ... and is able to benefit from just never having the spotlight and the media turned on him in an aggressive way. C. BROWN: You know, Ed, you called what's going on with the Democrats right now -- and this is a quote from you -- "train-wreck theater." Conservative bloggers have got to be having a blast with this.

MORRISSEY: Yes.

C. BROWN: What's the view from the sideline?

MORRISSEY: Well, the view from the sideline is that this is not going to last a very long time. I think that it's going to eventually settle out. We're seeing some really interesting numbers, but we're seven months out. The Rasmussen poll that showed that 22 percent of the Democrats want Hillary to drop out. Twenty percent want Barack Obama to drop out. Gallup saying that 28 percent of one candidate's voters will defect and 19 percent of another will defect.

Those numbers are going to change. Seven months ago, we thought we had Rudy Giuliani going up against Hillary Clinton. So seven months from now, it's going to look very, very different. But right now, it's a good time for John McCain to focus his message positively and to lay out his campaign very aggressively but his campaign and not the campaign, a comparative campaign with the Democrats, because he's got the opening right now to do that.

C. BROWN: Amanda, let me go to you. I want to talk about an issue that's not going away for Senator Obama, and that's his relationship with his pastor, Jeremiah Wright. Obama talked about it again today. And let's listen first and then we'll talk about it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: This is somebody who was preaching three sermons at least a week, for 30 years. And got boiled down in the -- they found five or six of his most offensive statements, boiled that down into a half an hour sound clip, or a half minute, a half minute sound clip, and just played it over and over and over again. Partly because it spoke to some of the racial divisions that we have in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: And Amanda, this is still topic A for a lot of people on the Internet right now, isn't it?

AMANDA CARPENTER, BLOGGER, TOWNHALL.COM: Yes, I don't think it's going to go away. I mean, the way this topic came about, it was only talked about in sort of, you know, what's considered the fringe conservative outlets. You know, these strange places on talk radio and, you know, on Sean Hannity's show. And then, it started to build and build. And then, finally, we got the video of that sermon speaking things, those very controversial things, and it was a major story.

And so, you know, the news outlets are going to get sick of playing those clips but it will continue to be talked about in those circles. And I think what the conversation is going to boil down to is whether or not Barack Obama buys into this idea of black liberation theology that the Reverend Wright preaches out of. Because sure, he said very controversial things but they had a very distinct ideological underpinning and we need to know if Barack Obama shares that same kind of world view.

C. BROWN: OK.

KLEIN: Can I jump in here?

C. BROWN: No, Ezra, I knew -- and you were going to get a chance to jump in. We're going to get a quick break, but I knew you would have something to say about that. We'll be back just right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: I am back with three prominent bloggers we were speaking to just a moment ago, Ezra Klein, Ed Morrissey and Amanda Carpenter. Welcome back everybody. And as we were going to break, we were talking about Barack Obama's pastor, Reverend Wright, his comments, the fact that they are still playing out very much on the Internet right now. And Ezra didn't get a chance to make his comment so I'm going to you.

KLEIN: All right. So this is one of the interesting conversations that is going on on the left. Which is that you take the Reverend Wright thing and as Amanda had mentioned a minute ago, we're asking, what is actually the issue here? We all know it's a political problem. It's supposed to be a political problem. It's being put on your show as a political problem.

But do Americans, does Amanda really believe that Barack Obama, contrary to what he says believes the most radical views of Jeremiah Wright? Nobody actually thinks that. I was talking with Amanda a few moments ago. She seems like a reasonable person. I don't believe she believes that.

(CROSSTALK)

CARPENTER: I'm completely reasonable. Let me make my point.

KLEIN: And more to the point, we don't believe that when McCain went and hugged Jerry Falwell, he agrees that feminist and gays bear responsibility for 9/11. I mean, this seems all very silly. And part of the question I think a lot of folks are asking is, how exactly does this work? What when people say is the political problem do they need?

CARPENTER: Ezra, I'd love to give you a piece of evidence here.

C. BROWN: Go ahead, Amanda.

CARPENTER: In 2002, I think, Barack Obama said something in his very famous anti-war speech that could come out of the mouth of Reverend Wright. He said that he thought after we got through this line that he repeats all the time that he was opposed to a dumb war, a rash war. He said that he believed the Iraq war was a ploy constructed by political hacks, that's his quote, political hacks like Karl Rove to distract from domestic issues that impacted minorities when he dropped in to run.

(CROSSTALK)

KLEIN: When Andy Card -- when Andy Card run on television and he said you don't rule out a new product in August, what do you think he meant?

CARPENTER: Go find his 2002 anti-war speech, it'll explain it, because Reverend Wright delivered the same one. Yes.

KLEIN: When Andy Card said about the Iraq war, you don't rule out a new product in August, what do you think he meant in that?

C. BROWN: OK. All right. Let me let Ed have the final word here. Go ahead, Ed.

MORRISSEY: There is something else to this -- is that the fact is that Barack Obama doesn't have a lot of political experience. He is asking us to trust his judgment. That is, his message has been for the last several months, my judgment is better than Hillary Clinton's. My judgment is better than John McCain's, so I don't need the experience.

What this goes to is to his judgment. He has been in that -- he's been in that church for 20 years. He has described this man as his political adviser and his spiritual mentor, and yet he claims that he doesn't know anything about this radical theology that Jeremiah Wright has been espousing.

C. BROWN: All right.

MORRISSEY: What kind of person sits in that church for 20 years and doesn't absorb that?

C. BROWN: I know. Guys, there is so much more to talk about on this front. I know, so go online, blog about it. We'll have you back on.

(CROSSTALK)

KLEIN: Thank you.

C. BROWN: All right. Thanks to Ezra, Amanda and Ed, appreciate it.

MORRISSEY: Thank you, Campbell.

C. BROWN: The presidential campaigns are pulling out all the stops for your donations. Well, wait until you hear what Clinton, Obama and McCain are offering. Coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

C. BROWN: So who wins when football clashes with politics? Well, politics, of course. The NFL will likely move up the start time of September's opening day game so that it won't overlap with John McCain's convention speech.

And on the fund-raising front, the candidates have some very appealing incentives to potential donors. Here's the Obama campaign's offer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Here's what we're going to do. We want to have four people who donate money this week to sit down and have dinner with me, on me. We'll fly you in. I'll pay for dinner.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

C. BROWN: And not to be outdone, Hillary Clinton sees Obama's dinner and raises it One Elton John.

Her campaign Web site says if you make a donation you have a chance to attend the Clinton fund-raiser hosted by the legendary pop star.

And John McCain offers the best one of all. You can give to his campaign and win a ride on a bus. In all seriousness, that's a ride on John McCain's famous Straight Talk Express.

And finally tonight, casting for the Oliver Stone film "W" is complete. Playing the 43rd president is "No Country for Old Men" star, Josh Brolin. Also today, it was announced that first lady Laura Bush will be played by Elizabeth Banks, who starred in the film "The 40 Year Old Virgin."

And that's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.

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