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Campbell Brown
New Revelations on Reverend Wright, Presidential Candidates Target Economy
Aired March 27, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight -- money, jobs, mortgages. The economy is issue number one with voters, and the presidential candidates finally get it.
Today, Barack Obama was the latest to come forward with a major economic speech. Senator Hillary Clinton's campaign event also centered around the economy. We're going to have all the details.
Also today, previews of potential vice presidents. Republicans John McCain and Mitt Romney are side by side today in New York, while, in New York, it was another combination, independent Mayor Michael Bloomberg with Democrat Barack Obama. Obama was in New York to talk about the economy, while Hillary Clinton was doing much of the same in North Carolina. Each was selling their own plans and hitting hard at John McCain's.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON (D-NY), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's time for a president who is ready on day one to be the commander in chief of our economy.
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we can extend a hand to banks on Wall Street when they get into trouble, we can extend a hand to Americans who are struggling. John McCain recently announced his own plan. And unfortunately, it amounts to little more than watching this crisis unfold.
CLINTON: It seems like, if the phone were ringing, he would just let it ring and ring and ring.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Suzanne Malveaux was here in New York today. She's covering Senator Obama's speech.
And you have kind of a wrap-up for us. Give us the gist of what was in his plan.
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Sure. Well, it was just, as you know, a couple blocks from Wall Street. And this is when he got his chance to say, I'm going to be the economist in chief here. So, what he talked about was a $30 billion economic stimulus package, also a way to regulate the industry, the housing and mortgage industry business, and also bankruptcy reform. He really basically said, I want the federal government to get involved to protect families from these predatory lending practices. So, it really was more about, I'm going to be the kind of leader that's going to be much more directly intervening in this kind of crisis.
BROWN: And he also came out today and said very directly that we're in a recession.
MALVEAUX: Yes, he used the R-word, which is a scary thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... if you're running for president?
MALVEAUX: He used the R-word.
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: It was very typical, though. It wasn't surprising. He said he blamed the Bush administration.
And he said, look, this has been a laissez-faire situation. We have got billions of dollars spent in the Iraq war, tax breaks for the wealthiest Americans.
But he turned the corner here, and he said, John McCain is going to be a third-term Bush presidency because of his own -- his philosophy here which is limited government. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: John McCain recently announced his own plan. Unfortunately, it amounts to little more than watching this crisis unfold.
While this is consistent with Senator McCain's determination to run for George Bush's third term, it won't...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: ... it won't help families that are suffering, and it won't help lift our economy out of recession.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: OK, so, how did McCain to react though those words?
MALVEAUX: They didn't even wait until the speech was over before e-mails were blowing up here.
(CROSSTALK)
MALVEAUX: But essentially they did release a statement.
And they said in part, he says: "I believe the role of government is to help the truly needy. Reforms should focus on improving transparency, accountability in our capital markets." And then he also said, "It is not necessary that -- a multibillion dollar bailout for big businesses and speculators, like we have from Senators Obama and Clinton."
So, clearly, he is setting the marker here, saying, look, we think this is more of the same. This is government spending. This is wasteful spending.
And so he does not believe that that is the role of the government. We will see how that plays with the voters.
BROWN: Yes, I was going to say, positions staked out for the debate to come.
Suzanne Malveaux -- thanks, Suzanne.
MALVEAUX: OK. Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: Senator Obama was introduced this morning by New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, sparking speculation about a possible ticket.
Bloomberg, an independent, has not officially endorsed any of the candidates yet. Both had very kind words for one another, though.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL BLOOMBERG (I), MAYOR OF NEW YORK: In this great hall 148 years ago, a presidential candidate from Illinois gave a speech. In the way only he could, he offered a brilliant and beautiful defense of his position on slavery. That man, of course, was Abraham Lincoln.
This morning, it is my honor to welcome another man from Illinois who is also running for president.
OBAMA: At a time when Washington is divided in old ideological battles, he shows us what can be achieved when we bring people together to seek pragmatic solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And on the other side of the country in Utah today, Mitt Romney helped Senator John McCain raise money and raise even more speculation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR: It's an honor to be here with Senator McCain. He is a man who is proven and tested, an individual who is without question the right person to be the next president of the United States.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are united as a party. Where Governor Romney can play such a key role is that we really have to energize our party.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right, joining me to talk about the possibility of possible running mates, "TIME" magazine editor at large and senior political analyst Mark Halperin.
Hello.
MARK HALPERIN, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST, "TIME": Hey, Campbell.
So, those were cool images today. First, let's start with the great picture of Bloomberg along with Barack Obama. Is that a possibility?
HALPERIN: It's the ultimate game of Garanimals. We can mix and match for the next couple of months in the sideshow, at least, to Obama and Clinton and settling that.
(CROSSTALK)
HALPERIN: You know, both John McCain and Barack Obama I could imagine picking Michael Bloomberg. Difficult for McCain to do, because Bloomberg is so liberal on social issues, probably not the best pick for Obama in the sense that Bloomberg also doesn't have great national security experience and he's from the Northeast.
But both of them like him. Both of them respect him. And he would be able to spend a billion dollars on the race. And I think probably whoever picked him first would win, because that billion dollars would help. But in the end, I don't think either will pick him.
BROWN: Well, you also have to think, I mean sort of the counter to us, we're talking about VIP stakes, but was Barack Obama auditioning a little bit to get Mike Bloomberg's endorsement?
HALPERIN: Maybe. It's hard to know what Bloomberg's endorsement is worth. He's not that well known outside of New York.
BROWN: Outside of New York.
HALPERIN: Within New York, within political circles, within media circles, he's very well known.
But I think the big attraction to Bloomberg is twofold as a potential running mate for either. One is spending his own personal fortune on the race. The other is, he does have a record of accomplishment in New York and a record and a reputation for getting things done. And that's something that people want in government today.
BROWN: OK. The other striking image today, Romney standing there with McCain. And you know, during the primary, not a lot of love between these two.
HALPERIN: Well, this is part of John McCain's great victory lap, now that he is the de facto nominee, the de facto leader of the party. Everybody, even past people with whom he had trouble, have to stand with him, get to stand with him, and they have to kiss the ring.
I have to tell you, in thinking about what John McCain will want in a running mate, he wants someone who every time he looks up and they say the vice president is here and he sees them, he's happy to see them. And while he has patched things up somewhat with Mitt Romney, I don't think Mitt Romney is going to cross over that bar.
BROWN: So, this one ain't going to happen?
HALPERIN: I don't think so.
BROWN: Hillary Clinton has been sort of joined at the hip with Evan Bayh a lot. Is that -- is he a possibility? Is he the leading contender?
HALPERIN: I think so. I think he is a leading contender, because I think she wants to pick someone who sends a message of solid, but, most of all -- and I think we should say this for all three of them -- the lesson of Bill Clinton picking Al Gore, the lesson of George Bush picking Dick Cheney, the most important thing is to pick someone who the public says, right away, that person's ready to be president.
That person has the experience, the judgment, the character to be president in case something happens to the president. And I think Senator Clinton thinks Evan Bayh fits that to a tee.
BROWN: OK finally, the dream ticket, the Democratic dream ticket, Hillary and Obama together, I mean, given all that has happened over the last few weeks especially, is that idea just dead and gone?
HALPERIN: I don't think it's dead. Neither of them would like to run with the other one. Neither of them is looking to do it.
If Senator Clinton somehow wins the nomination -- and as we have discussed, that is a long shot right now -- she would be under extraordinary pressure to pick Obama.
Obama, it's hard to come up for me with the scenario where he would pick her. But again we don't know how this is going to play out. It could be that his people and he thinks the only way to unite the party is for her to be on the ticket. I don't think that will happen, but I wouldn't rule it out. And once up a time not too long ago, I did.
BROWN: All right, Mark Halperin, good to see you. Thanks.
HALPERIN: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: We're going to talk more about the vice presidential guessing game, but there's a lot of political news to cover tonight, including record-breaking amounts of cash.
Official numbers from the Federal Election Commission show Barack Obama raised $55 million in February, spent $42 million of it, and had about $38 million left at the end of the month. Hillary Clinton raised $34 million in February, spent $31 million, and had $33 left. It makes John McCain's millions look puny by comparison. He raised just $11 million in February, spent almost $9, and had about $8 million left.
Keep in mind, we're only talking about cash for the primaries. That money has to last McCain until the Republican Convention in September.
And here are some numbers that the Democrats won't like. The Clinton/Obama fight is creating hard feelings among voters. A new CNN/Opinion Research poll shows 16 percent of each candidate's supporters won't vote at all in November if their candidate loses the nomination.
Clinton was asked about a similar poll this afternoon. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
CLINTON: I intend to do everything I can to make sure that we have a unified Democratic Party. When this contest is over, and we have a nominee, we're going to close ranks. We're going to be united. And I have no doubt about that, because the most important goal is for us to put a Democrat back into the White House next January.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: One reason we pay so much attention to vice presidential choices is that it is so important to get it right. We're going to look back on some of the big announcements that worked, and some that didn't.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The unveiling of a running mate is a highlight of every election year, sometimes packing about as much drama as the Oscars. You will remember these.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE H.W. BUSH, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And I introduce to you now my friend, the next vice president of the United States, Senator Dan Quayle.
AL GORE, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The next vice president of the United States of America, Joe Lieberman.
GOV. GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Dick Cheney, a man of great integrity, sound judgment, and experience, is my choice to be the next vice president of the United States.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: With your help, the next vice president of the United States of America will be Senator John Edwards from North Carolina. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining me now, Joan Walsh, editor in chief of Salon.com, Melissa Harris-Lacewell, who is an associate professor of politics and African-American studies at Princeton University and she's a contributor to theroot.com. And we have got Kevin Madden, former press secretary for one-time Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney, with us from Washington.
Hey there, Kevin.
Welcome to everybody.
KEVIN MADDEN, FORMER ROMNEY CAMPAIGN NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY: Hello, Campbell.
BROWN: Joan and Melissa, I will start with you since you're in the studio with me.
And let's talk about Obama, along with Mike Bloomberg today here in New York. What an image it was. Let's show people the pictures of that moment.
Take us through -- Joan, you start -- sort of the pluses and minuses, I guess, of a Bloomberg on your ticket as vice president.
JOAN WALSH, EDITOR IN CHIEF, SALON.COM: You know, I think the big plus, Campbell, is that he is, like Obama, a kind of post-partisan figure. He appeals to independents. He would really send a message that Obama is thinking beyond the boxes of red, blue, Democrat, Republican.
I think it's very unlikely. I really can't see it, ultimately, because in the end, Obama's going to have to do electoral math. And I believe he will carry New York City, whatever happens.
BROWN: Right.
WALSH: So, I think that Michael Bloomberg's appeal outside of New York is, let's just say, untested and probably limited.
So, that's why it's a fun photo-op. We love it as journalists, but I don't really see it this summer.
BROWN: Right. Is this just us reveling, the media?
MELISSA HARRIS-LACEWELL, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF POLITICS AND AFRICAN AMERICAN STUDIES, PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Oh, it would be so much fun. I have got to assume that a whole bunch of people are printing up Obama/Bloomberg T-shirts right now, right, because it would be big fun.
But, I mean, these are two big-city guys. You don't run a Chicagoan and a New Yorker together on a ticket in 2008. You are going to have to, you know, expand the Electoral College map a little bit.
BROWN: Let me go to Kevin, because Kevin, as we mentioned, used to work for Romney. You know how tense it was, though, between Mitt Romney and John McCain during the primary. Romney basically charged Senator McCain would run the country like a liberal Democrat. And then McCain was accusing Romney of being a flip-flop artist, deceiving the American people. And here they are today, shaking hands, buddy- buddy.
Could you ever see them together on a ticket?
MADDEN: Aren't primaries fun?
BROWN: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
MADDEN: That's what they're there for.
I think, look, you know, it played into the most competitive instincts of each candidate, and each candidate did the best to try and become the Republican nominee. And John McCain won and Mitt Romney didn't win. Shouldn't say he lost. He just didn't win.
But, you know, I think that, right now, what John McCain has to look for in a running mate is somebody who checks all the boxes. The criticisms that the Democrats are going to launch at him is that he's somebody who's been in Washington too long. They're going to try and play up maybe the age factor. They're going to say that he doesn't have experience on the economy.
And I think that John McCain is going to look at all of those attributes in a running mate. And then the most important question: Is this person ready to be president? And there are a whole host of Republicans out there I think who would fill that bill.
BROWN: All right, let's talk economy for a minute, and start with Democrats.
Obama gave his big economic speech today and it sounded remarkably similar to the one given by Hillary Clinton. Let's listen quickly.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If we can extend a hand to banks on Wall Street when they get into trouble, we can extend a hand to Americans who are struggling.
CLINTON: Well, if the Fed can extend $30 billion to help Bear Stearns address their financial crisis, the federal government should provide at least that much energy assistance to help families and communities address theirs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: These two sound almost identical, if you listen to them. If you are a voter, the economy's your top issue, how do you decide?
HARRIS-LACEWELL: Well, part of what was fun about this economy threesome of speeches is that each one of the candidates sounded just like themselves.
Barack Obama says, we're all in this together. Hillary Clinton says, I'm ready to be commander in chief of our economy on day one. And John McCain says, let's have some straight talk and personal possibility.
So, in a certain way, the fact is that this particular mortgage crisis sure better be solved before November of 2008. So, what these candidates are doing here is not so much offering us what they are going to do as president. All them are in better position as senators to do something about it now.
But they're showing us their political style, how they would approach the big problems. And they were, each and every one of them, in perfect campaign form.
BROWN: OK. We have got to wrap and take a commercial break.
The panel is sticking with us, though. We should mention you guys are going to come back shortly.
So, we're going to take a quick break, but first, does our voting system need to be totally scrapped? We're going to hear about a new plan to revolutionize the way we elect the president -- when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So, are you ready for another election story from Florida?
Well, today, Florida Senator Bill Nelson called for a complete election overhaul, proposing that we throw out the whole Electoral College and elect the president by popular vote.
I spoke with Senator Nelson earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I want to start with the latest news out of Florida. Today, Barack Obama's campaign announced that it's starting talks with Florida Democrats to try to reach a compromise solution to seat Florida's delegates at the convention.
What's the latest on this, and what would be acceptable to you?
SEN. BILL NELSON (D), FLORIDA: Well, I have spoken to Barack and to Hillary, as well as to chairman Howard Dean. And I have offered a solution that the Democratic rules say that, if a state breaches the election date, that they lose half their delegates. And that's a compromise, because, then, if Hillary were ahead 38 delegates ahead of Barack as a result of the election on January 19, you take away half, the compromise is, she would be ahead only 19 delegates.
BROWN: You are a supporter of Hillary Clinton. One of the things that had been talked about was a revote. Is there any possibility that that might happen?
NELSON: We tried that, Campbell, and for one reason or another, it just did not work. But I want to make sure that you know that long before I endorsed Hillary, I mean, last summer, I was trying to work this out with the Democratic National Committee, and they just weren't having anything of it. They were going to take the full pound of flesh out of Florida by stripping all the delegates.
BROWN: This whole situation has left a really bad taste in your mouth and it's for that reason that you are introducing what a lot of people might say is a radical plan, to change how America votes.
And I just want to go through some of it. I know you want to do away with the Electoral College, let the popular vote decide who becomes president. You also want to change the nominating process by creating basically like six regional primaries. And you want to extend early voting to the whole country. The things you are talking about, not an easy list here.
There are a lot of people who would have to sign off on it. How do you get something like this done?
NELSON: Well, we can't continue with this chaos. We have got to reform the system -- and I think everybody understands that -- the presidential primary system. That's one component.
Then, we want to make it easy for people to vote. And that's a way of doing it with the early voting that you're talking about. And then the principle of one person, one vote -- let every vote count and count as it was intended. And that is doing away with the Electoral College, so you don't get in a situation, like in 2000, when one candidate got the most votes, but that candidate wasn't the one that was selected as president.
BROWN: Right. But getting rid of the Electoral College, that takes a constitutional amendment.
NELSON: Indeed. And that is a long and laborious process. But the time for reform is now, when everybody knows that the system is not working like it should.
BROWN: But the cynics might say that, if your candidate, Hillary Clinton, were faring better, that you wouldn't be out there pitching election reform.
NELSON: Well, regardless of that, we see that a system is breaking down. And we in Florida are quite sensitive about having our vote taken away.
BROWN: Senator Bill Nelson from Florida tonight -- Senator, thank you. Appreciate your time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: New polls released today indicate that this drawn-out primary campaign could cause long-term damage. We're going to dig into the numbers with our political panel when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Two polls just came out that could mean trouble for one or both of the Democratic candidates.
And joining us again to help make sense of the new numbers and the consequences of this long primary fight are Joan Walsh, editor in chief of Salon.com, Melissa Harris-Lacewell, associate professor of politics at Princeton University, and Kevin Madden, once again, former press secretary for Mitt Romney.
And, Joan, let me start with you this time.
We know how bitter this Democratic fight has been. And there's a new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll out today that shows about 16 percent, if I got that number right, of Democrats say that they would stay home if their nominee wasn't chosen.
And then, following on that, Senator Chris Dodd, who has endorsed Obama, told "The National Journal" today -- and we will put it up -- that -- quote -- "Certainly, over the next couple of weeks, as we get into April, the national leadership of this party has to stand up, reach a conclusion, instead of having this sort of drip on for the next five months. That is devastating, in my view."
Do you agree with him? Do you think it's come to the point where there's got to be some sort of intervention?
WALSH: You know, I think it's a really tough question, because what happens, when people start to push for one obvious solution, which is for Hillary Clinton to drop out -- I don't really know why Barack Obama would drop out at this point, so, it is always posed as, Hillary's got to go away -- the party really risks alienating her voters and her base.
So, I know people worry about a divisive primary, but, at the same time, one sure way to make people either stay home or vote for John McCain is to have it be seen that either candidate is treated unfairly. That could include superdelegates -- I don't think they will do this -- but if the superdelegates overturn the will of the voters, and picked Clinton, or if the party elders, leaders were pushing her to the exits, that that would be that would turn off her voters, and therefore alienate them.
So, it's really dicey. It's not obvious what Chris Dodd even means, let alone what they should do.
BROWN: Let me ask you about another thing that came up in polling today.
And, Kevin, I will go to you. This is from a Pew poll out today. And when I read it, it really shocked me. It said that about one in 10 Americans believe that Barack Obama is a Muslim. I mean, we all know that that's not true. It's a lie. And, yet, you know, how much of a problem could that ultimately be? You know how these things get started. Rumors are out there, and, all of a sudden, it becomes part of the psyche. How do you overcome something like this?
MADDEN: Well, you know, this is largely a -- something -- a problem that's overcome through the mechanics of the campaign. I think Barack Obama, obviously, in the campaign, the Obama campaign, has to be very, very aggressive in making sure that they knock this down and that they present all the true facts about who Barack Obama is and why he wants to be president, and make sure that any little rumor, any little blog post that points out something to the contrary, to make sure that they are very judicious in chasing that down and setting the record straight.
BROWN: Were you surprised by it, that something that could get talked about that starts on the blogs ends up -- I mean, one in 10, that's a strong number.
HARRIS-LACEWELL: Well, it does seem a little surprising in a week where he's just been defending himself against his -- the -- the words of his own Christian minister, that in this week he would have one in 10 Americans thinking that he's Muslim. But perhaps they don't realize that Jeremiah Wright is the pastor of a Christian church.
So this strikes me more as a kind of willful ignorance, a decision to understand Barack Obama as somehow alien, and is probably related to the sort of questions about his patriotism. It's not just a question of religion, because of the ways in which our country has a very strong anti-Muslim bias, saying that someone is a Muslim is not just designating their religion.
MADDEN: Campbell, just one second.
HARRIS-LACEWELL: It's designating something more about them.
BROWN: OK, quickly, Kevin, go ahead.
MADDEN: Just real quick. You know, this is probably -- this is a product of just how information mobility has changed in campaigns. It used to be that these sorts of things would only pass, you know, from person to person. Now, with the Internet it's showing up in an e-mail and spreading virally throughout everybody's e-mail boxes, it's very hard to change. It's very different from campaigns of yesteryear.
BROWN: That's a great point. All right. We got to end it there. Kevin, to you, and to Joan and Melissa here with me, thanks to everybody. Appreciate your time tonight.
MADDEN: Great to be with you.
BROWN: And we just want to mention a programming note on another subject. The economy and the housing crisis are the focus of a CNN Special Investigation Unit report, so tune in for "Busted! Mortgage Meltdown." That's at 8:00 Eastern tomorrow night.
And coming up next, Senator McCain's campaign co-chair from 2000 still hasn't endorsed him in this campaign. We're going to talk with Senator Chuck Hagel, and ask him why not, when we come back.
Also, new revelations about the fire brand pastor from Obama's church. They are lighting up the phone lines on talk shows across the country. Stay with us for that, too.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It was another deadly day in Iraq today, the third day of fighting between Shiite Muslims and Iraqi troops that have seen multiple attacks on the heavily fortified International Zone. Two Americans were killed today, and the upsurge in violence may make it tougher for John McCain to press his case for staying in Iraq, and to gain the support of one the most outspoken critics of the six-year U.S.-led war.
Nebraska Senator Chuck Hagel was John McCain's 2000 campaign co- chair. But this time around, he says he's in no rush to endorse his fellow Republican John McCain. His new book is called "America: Our Next Chapter," and we talked to him just a little bit ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: In 2000, you co-chaired Senator John McCain's presidential campaign. This time around, very different. You've said you want to wait. You disagree on the war in Iraq. You want to hear more about his foreign policy. You know that yesterday he laid out a lot of his foreign policy in his big speech, saying he wants to have less of a sort of cowboy diplomacy approach like the Bush administration, and try to make up with our allies, if you will. Is that enough for you? Are you ready to endorse him?
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Well, I thought what he had to say there was very important. But he also said that we must win in Iraq, and whatever it takes to win, meaning we'll stay there for as long as it takes -- and I don't agree with that. First of all, I don't think the American public will stand for it. The polls are clear on that. I don't think the Congress will go along with that. But I think we need a clear, concise, responsible policy as to how we start unwinding our involvement in Iraq, and that's --
BROWN: Are you hearing that from any of these presidential candidates?
HAGEL: No, not yet. I hope that the Democratic candidate will come forward whenever that individual is chosen, and I think that candidate is going to have to, to present how we get out of Iraq to the American people. It isn't good enough in my opinion just to say, well, we're going to leave. How, when, under what circumstances? It's more thoughtful and responsible way that you got to approach this.
BROWN: Your book, it talks about the need for an independent political movement, which is sort of how you describe it in this country right now. But you look at this campaign, and there is more excitement and more energy and enthusiasm from voters than we've seen in a long time.
And there, you know, if you look at candidates like Barack Obama, like John McCain, what they're touting is their independence, their ability to cross party lines. So, why would you suggest that we need kind of this third party or third party movement?
HAGEL: Well, first, politics just reflects society. Last week's Gallup poll question, right way, wrong way. Eighty-one percent of the American people said we're going in the wrong direction.
That's partly why I say, in this chapter on politics, we may be looking at a reorientation such that we may see the emergence of an Independent candidate for the very reason, or a party, for the very reason you just mentioned, because the strength of the candidate has been not on their party positions or based on the party.
BROWN: Right.
HAGEL: They go out and raise money without the party. Obama has raised almost $200 million on the Internet with an average of a little more than $100 a person.
BROWN: You and Senator Obama have worked closely together on foreign policy legislation, and he said he's a fan of yours. There's even been some talk of you becoming, if you were elected, like a member of the Obama cabinet. Is that something you'd ever consider?
HAGEL: I don't anticipate being in the government next year in any capacity. Certainly, any person would have to consider a serious offer from the president of the United States.
BROWN: Regardless of party.
HAGEL: Sure. You have to. But I don't anticipate that. I'm going to go try to find honest work after I'm out of the Senate, a new job somewhere. I won't worry about that until next year.
BROWN: Do you think these candidates should be considering a bipartisan ticket?
HAGEL: We have a political paralysis that's set in in Washington. We can't move, and it has been emerging. Both parties are to blame. So we're stuck. We can't get things done for the American people.
A bipartisan ticket certainly would give an option there. I don't predict that happening this year. But who knows. Look at what the Democratic Party is embroiled in this year.
BROWN: All right. Senator Chuck Hagel --
HAGEL: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The pastor controversy that is trailing Obama, we've got some surprising new developments today. That's coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Looking ahead now, Barack Obama is on "The View" tomorrow. We have got a preview of the candidate responding to a question about his outspoken former pastor and the controversy that just will not go away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Had the reverend not retired, and had he not acknowledged that what he had said had deeply offended people and were inappropriate and mischaracterized, what I believe is the greatness of this country for all its flaws, then I wouldn't have felt comfortable staying there at the church.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And we're learning much more tonight about Reverend Wright. A newly reported statement that will surely offend. The first "Newsday" is reporting that Wright is taking aim at Italians speaking of their "Garlic Noses" and calling Jesus' crucifixion "a public lynching Italian style" orchestrated by "apartheid Rome."
And now, statements attributed to Wright that target yet another ethnic group. Jessica Yellin is joining us now with the details.
And Jessica, tell us more about the writings. What do we know?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is all from a church bulletin. We understand this is a document that goes out to parishioners of the church, and it has a pastor's page, a page in which Reverend Wright could have printed whatever he deemed appropriate. This is from the last year alone.
There are a number of opportunities when Reverend Wright basically printed views of other people that were very anti-Israel. And among them, I'll just read you a few.
He quoted an Arab-American activist, an Arab activist saying, "I must tell you that Israel was the closest ally to the white supremacists of South Africa. Both worked on an ethnic bomb that kills blacks and Arabs." And also, he also had this quote: "What the Zionist Jews did to the Palestinians is worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews."
Now, I tell you, Campbell, this has all come to light because these are on the Internet. They are circulating on some of the blogs. The Clinton campaign today was asked about them. A spokesperson with them said these comments have no place in the public dialogue. The Obama campaign has not commented, but I will say Barack Obama, as you know this week, has called for us to sort of turn the page and focus back on the issues. But clearly, writings like this are bound to keep getting attention -- Campbell.
BROWN: You look at recent polls, though, and at least so far, the Reverend Wright, the issues that have come up have not affected Obama's support, have they?
YELLIN: Right. And it's fascinating because despite this drip, drip, drip of information, the latest NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll shows that Barack Obama is statistically tied with Senator Clinton. And it appears that since this Wright controversy broke, he even seems to have risen in the polls a bit. Today, he's at 45 percent to Clinton's 45 percent. Prior to the Wright controversy, he was at 43 percent.
So, what this tells us is that basically he has survived the first major crisis of his campaign. We'll have to see how these new revelations play out. But so far, it looks like Barack Obama has found a way to weather this one.
BROWN: All right. Jessica Yellin for us tonight. Jessica, thanks.
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up in just a few minutes, and Larry, who do have with you tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": It's the brawl for it all, dear, that pretty much describes this race for the Democratic presidential nomination. We'll have the latest on this incredible contest with our panel of insiders.
That's the "LARRY KING LIVE" scene at the top of the hour. Do you believe this? Do you believe this, dear?
BROWN: No, it's engrossing. We're doing the same thing. It's all anybody wants to talk about.
KING: I can't believe. I've never -- there's never been anything like this.
BROWN: All right, Larry.
KING: How does it all end?
BROWN: Who knows? We will be watching. We'll be watching you to find out.
KING: Me, too. Thanks, dear.
BROWN: We'll be turning to the radio next. We've got talk show hosts. They're getting bombarded again by calls about Obama's former pastor and the revelations we just reported. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Taking the pulse of the voters. Today, radio listeners are still burning up the lines over Senator Obama's fire-brand preacher and the economic firestorm from the mortgage meltdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL SHARPTON, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, THE AL SHARPTON SHOW: What Obama's speech today touches on, which I think is correct, government must govern and regulate on behalf of the citizenship. That's their job.
BILL HANDEL, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, THE BILL HANDEL SHOW: You can't just bail out the big companies. You got to bail out more individuals.
GLENN BECK, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST, THE GLENN BECK SHOW: I don't believe that Barack Obama, in his heart of hearts, hates the white man. I do believe that Jeremiah Wright does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Some stories just won't go away. Callers on talk radio aren't ready to stop talking about Reverend Wright. And joining me now, two of the best known radio talk show host in the country, Michael Reagan, son of President Ronald Reagan and best-selling author. And then we've got Michael Papantonio, co-host of the nationally syndicated radio show, "Ring of Fire." Welcome to both of you.
MICHAEL PAPANTONIO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: How are you?
MICHAEL REAGAN, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thank you.
BROWN: Good, thanks. Mike, let me start with you. More revelations about Reverend Wright's opinions today. This time some controversial writings of his in a church magazine. This issue doesn't seem to be going away for Barack Obama, does it?
(CROSSTALK)
PAPANTONIO: Well, the longer this Wright issue --
REAGAN: Well, you know --
BROWN: Sorry, sorry, sorry. I have to differentiate -- I've got to Mikes tonight. So Mike, I'll start with you and then we'll go to you Michael.
(CROSSTALK)
PAPANTONIO: Yes, the longer the Reverend --
REAGAN: Am I Michael?
BROWN: This is not going to work.
PAPANTONIO: OK. How about this? Let me give it a shot.
BROWN: OK.
PAPANTONIO: The longer the Reverend Wright issue lingers, Campbell, the better chance the media is also going to have to pick up on the crowd that McCain is surrounding himself with. Look, John Hagee -- John Hagee is somebody we haven't paid attention to, but he is the person you might remember said that the Catholic church is the world's great whore.
McCain has gotten away from saying that he is part of all that, but this is a guy that McCain went after. He tried to embrace, he tried to embrace Hagee, and bring him into his organization. This is also the same televangelist who said that Hurricane Katrina, when it killed 1,300 people down in New Orleans that that was the work of God because New Orleans had become sinful. So, it's not just -- it's not just the Reverend Wright issue...
REAGAN: Campbell?
PAPANTONIO: ... that's going to raise its ugly head here. And I got to tell you, the people that are calling or asking about Hagee --
REAGAN: If I could jump in, if I could jump in, Michael --
BROWN: OK. Go ahead, Michael.
PAPANTONIO: Yes, sure.
REAGAN: If I could jump in -- first of all, Hagee is a big leader of the evangelical movement down there in Texas that's why the endorsement of what he said, if that's what he said, it's absolutely outrageous. You're right. But John McCain doesn't go to church every Sunday with Hagee. The fact is Obama does go to church -- they go to church every Sunday with Reverend Wright. Never said anything to Reverend Wright at all.
And all you're trying to do, Michael, is move it -- you know, move the ball over to the court of John McCain. Hey, fight that out in the general election. Right now, we're in the primaries. And the fact is that both candidates are throwing bombs at each other having to do with race. Today, one of Hillary Clinton's own people in an interview in Ireland threw David Duke into the mix...
PAPANTONIO: Yes.
REAGAN: ... and said there was no difference between Wright and David Duke and that, in fact, Hillary Clinton would have walked out of a church if David Duke were preaching. I don't know anybody who wouldn't walk out of a church if David Duke --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: OK. Hold on one second, guys. Hold on. I want to bring something else into this.
Obama did a taping today with "The View."
PAPANTONIO: Right.
BROWN: And he talked about it. And here is what he had to say about his pastor. Let's listen.
Sorry. It's a full screen.
He said, "I think he's saddened by what's happened, and I told him I feel badly that he has been characterized just in this one way, and people haven't seen this broader aspect of him." I mean, it sounds like, obviously, he's standing by his pastor, but he said that before.
And let me ask you, Mike, not Michael Reagan, the other Mike, that many -- he suggested essentially that Americans don't understand him, the pastor. Do you think that's fair?
PAPANTONIO: Well, Americans are never going to understand him. It's a ridiculous position for Obama to even be talking about. Look, Obama is best when he's talking about full-blown recession, 50,000 home foreclosures that are taking place a month, $9 trillion projected deficit, $12 billion spent every month in Iraq. When he talks about those issues, he's at his very best.
The point is this. This whole Reverend Wright issue is not really affecting Obama as severely as the right would wish it did. It's simply -- it's not having that side (ph) effects --
(CROSSTALK)
REAGAN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. The right --
PAPANTONIO: He needs to go -- he needs to go back --
REAGAN: The right doesn't care.
PAPANTONIO: Well, they do care, Michael. I mean, they care --
REAGAN: You're saying the right -- the right --
BROWN: OK, guys.
REAGAN: Wait a minute. You're saying the right wishes -- the right wishes it's Hillary Clinton that hopes that, in fact, this affects the Obama campaign so she can win the nomination.
PAPANTONIO: Well --
REAGAN: The reason that he isn't going down the polls is because at the same time this is going on with Reverend Wright, Hillary Clinton is being proved out to be a liar on Ireland, a liar on Bosnia.
BROWN: OK.
REAGAN: And there's videotape of her lying to the public. BROWN: Hold that thought. We're going to take a quick break. We're going to come back with a lot more. We've got more about what people are talking about on talk radio. The issues listeners are worrying about when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with two of the best known radio talk show hosts in the country. They are often the early warning system for what's really happening out there. Welcome back, our two Michaels, Michael Reagan and Michael Papantonio.
And Michael Reagan, let me start with you. Just a few months ago, you know, after all we've been talking about, Republicans were pretty demoralized about their chances. But do you think things are changing now? Are your listeners starting to feel more hopeful?
REAGAN: I mean, when they look at John McCain, the reality is, he looks like he's to the right of Ronald Reagan, compared to the two on the other side who are promising everything. More spending, more taxes, more this, more of that.
I mean, so they all of a sudden look at John McCain, so he doesn't really look that bad at this point in time. That's why you see John McCain going up in the polls. Also the fact, he's not in a fight. He's not in an argument. He's looking presidential, while the other side is looking like children.
BROWN: And Mike, the counterpoint to that. Are your listeners starting to worry?
PAPANTONIO: Yes. Well, here's the point. Eighteen-to-30-year- olds, the MTVers, the X'ers, the millennial voters, these people are engaged right now in this process. I can tell you, they don't see McCain as an attractive candidate. They see him as a crutch of the old, kind of almost a crazy uncle that comes at Thanksgiving dinners and talks about nut stuff. So, I got to tell you this.
If you look at the age group that's going to have the biggest impact on this election, it's not an age group that Hillary Clinton has under control and it certainly isn't an age group that McCain has under control. The point is this. Right now --
REAGAN: And I will tell you something.
BROWN: Go ahead, Michael.
REAGAN: If Hillary is able to, in fact, do what she wants to do, take the superdelegates away, and win the nomination of the party, those 18 to 30-year-olds will stay home and drunk on Election Day and will not vote, and John McCain will be the president of the United States. That's a fact.
PAPANTONIO: I think you're right about that. I think you're right about that. BROWN: And I think based on what you're saying, you are the wrong two people to be asking this question. But we just heard a minute ago from Senator Chuck Hagel, longtime Republican, saying that maybe we need a third party here. We've got these two candidates in the race that appeal to independent voters, even voters of the other party in Barack Obama and John McCain. Do either of you hear an appetite out there for bipartisanship?
REAGAN: There is no system in place for a third party to run on national election, which is set up for a Democrat or a Republican to win the nomination. You have third parties all over the place that are running, but they never get the time of day, and they're never going to go anywhere in the national election. They belong in local elections.
PAPANTONIO: I mean, the last --
REAGAN: They always seem to pull it out. National election, never happen.
PAPANTONIO: OK, Mike, you get the last word.
PAPANTONIO: Yes. The last success of that was Ted Roosevelt with the Bull Moose Party. It hasn't repeated itself since. I don't think it's even a remote possibility.
BROWN: All right. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it as always.
REAGAN: Thank you.
PAPANTONIO: Thank you.
BROWN: And when the Democratic candidates talk about the economy, one of them says jobs a whole lot more than the other. We're going to tell you who, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Taking another look at the Democratic candidates' economic speeches today, one way to see how they differ is with the device called a tag cloud, which counts word repetition in the text or speech. The more times a word is used, the larger it appears. Here's what the tag cloud of Senator Clinton's speech looks like.
Her top buzz words -- jobs, companies, work and pay. Senator Obama's language is more technical with words like financial, economy, market and institutions. It does lead to some interesting comparisons. For example, Senator Clinton used the word jobs 49 times, Senator Obama, just four.
For, the word regulatory, well, Senator Obama, 19 times, Senator Clinton, zero. So, what's that all mean? We don't really know. We just thought it was interesting.
Anyway, that's it for tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxantshop.com
