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Campbell Brown
War of Words Over Iraq Heats Up; Battle Over Benefits; Hillary Clinton Presses on in Presidential Campaign
Aired May 27, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: There's a big story happening this hour.
President Bush and John McCain are making a rare side-by-side appearance. And this is as close as any of us are going to get to it, the front gate of the Arizona Biltmore Resort in Phoenix. It's a very private fundraiser that got a very critical and public review from Barack Obama at a town hall meeting today. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Today, John McCain is having a different kind of meeting. He's holding a fundraiser with George Bush behind closed doors in Arizona, no cameras, no reporters.
And we all know why. Senator McCain doesn't want to be seen, hat in hand, with the president whose failed policies he promises to continue for another four years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: In a moment, we're going to look at why a photo-op with Senator McCain and President Bush side by side may be great for fund- raising, but not so good for the campaign trail.
And there is also a bombshell new book from former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan. According to Politico.com, the longtime Bush loyalist writes that the president has, "veered terribly off course" and was not open and forthright on Iraq.
We are going to have the latest on that, too, but, first, what we're hearing from the campaign trail today. Here it is.
Not patriotic enough, badly informed and way too inexperienced, that's how John McCain and the Republicans intend to hit Barack Obama in the general election campaign.
And over the Memorial Day weekend, their strategy got clearer and louder. Tonight in the CNN ELECTION CENTER, we examine all of it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Over the holiday, both Obama and McCain surrounded themselves with flags and rubbed elbows with veterans. It was all about patriotism. B. OBAMA: On this Memorial Day, as our nation honors its unbroken line of fallen heroes -- and I see many of them in the audience today -- our sense of patriotism is particularly strong.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have had the good fortune to know personally a great many brave and selfless patriots who sacrificed and shed blood to defend America. But I have known none braver and none better than those who do so today.
BROWN: Many of those sacrificing and shedding blood now are in Iraq. Today, an anti-war heckler provoked a dramatic response from McCain, the kind that will no doubt stick to him for a long time.
MCCAIN: I will never surrender in Iraq, my friends.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MCCAIN: I will never surrender in Iraq.
Our American troops will come home with victory and with honor. And that's my message to my friends. And we are winning.
BROWN: Not only does McCain say that the U.S. is winning; he also says Obama doesn't know it.
In an interview with the Associated Press, McCain actually suggested he and Obama should visit Iraq together. McCain was last there in mid-March. Obama hasn't been to Iraq since 2006, before the U.S. troop surge.
McCain says that's far too long, telling the "Associated Press" -- quote -- "Look at what happened in the last two years, since Senator Obama visited and declared the war lost. He really has no experience or knowledge or judgment about the issue of Iraq, and he has wanted to surrender for a long time."
The Obama campaign scornfully turned down McCain's invitation to tour Iraq, a spokesman calling the proposal -- quote -- "nothing more than a political stunt" and saying, "We don't need any more mission accomplished banners or walks through Baghdad markets to know that Iraq's leaders have not made the political progress that was the stated purpose of the surge."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: What would McCain and Obama see if they actually went to Iraq?
CNN's Michael Ware is based in Baghdad. And he's going to join us right now, along with Fran Townsend, who is in Washington. She's the former White House homeland security adviser and CNN national security contributor. She's also a consultant to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and a member of the president's Intelligence Advisory Board.
Welcome to both of you.
Michael, let me start with you.
Let's say McCain and Obama did go to Iraq together. Would that visit, in your view, give them an accurate picture of what it's like on the ground? What would they be able to see and, more importantly, frankly, what wouldn't they see?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, it's hard to discern between campaign stunts and genuine inquiry.
I know I would certainly like 20 minutes with both the candidates, should they come here. But, I mean, if you come to Iraq as a U.S. official, you remain firmly within the bubble of U.S. protection. And we have long known that what happens in the Green Zone is far divorced from the reality on the ground. So, all opinions will be skewed.
And that's just the reality of life. I mean, U.S. officials who came here before were told that the insurgency was in a death throes, that there was no civil war, that you could walk the streets of Baghdad, and that the Iraqi government was actually a U.S. ally.
So, there is going to be severe limitations to what anyone can learn. The other thing is, what are they not going to be told? How much power has America ceded to Iran to maintain the level of violence that is so far down now at the moment? What has been the price of this?
We have heard the U.S. commander of the war in Iraq, General David Petraeus, confirm that the Iraqi president himself is considered an Iranian agent of influence. So, will they be told what's the real price, Campbell?
BROWN: And, Fran, I know that you disagree with Michael here, and you do say that there is real value to be had by going over, by meeting with the troops, and by talking with the generals.
FRANCES TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Campbell, I will say this.
I think Michael is right when he says that schedules are carefully controlled when someone is on an official visit. But I found, myself, in going, the most valuable part of the trip are the unscheduled interactions you have with soldiers and intelligence officials, the things that aren't scripted, and that are away from sort of the pro forma meetings.
And, so, I do think there is value in going there and talking to people who are responsible for executing our mission overseas.
BROWN: Michael, we just heard a few minutes Senator McCain declare that the U.S. is winning in Iraq. Does that match with what you are seeing on the ground?
WARE: Well, let's say this, Campbell.
Everyone welcomes the drop in violence. I mean, there's only been 19 U.S. casualties this month. In relative terms, in the sense of a vicious war going on, that's a good month. You -- Iraqi civilians are dying far less than they have at any almost any other point certainly since the civil war, or since the height of the insurgency.
But the question is, essentially, you have consolidated Iranian power in this region. You have left a long-term problem for your Arab allies to have to deal with. And you have committed a significant U.S. troop presence to this country and to this region as a stabilizing influence for a long time to come.
Now, if that's winning, then, yes, Senator McCain is correct.
BROWN: Fran, Fran, do you agree with that assessment?
TOWNSEND: Well, I think there's no question, when we look at the facts, attacks -- major security incidents are down. Coalition forces have already seized in 2008 more weapons than they seized in all of 2006. And, so, the facts suggest there's real progress.
Michael is right. The real question becomes whether or not the Iraqi government itself can sustain it and keep its people secure over the long term. And it's got to -- part of that is convincing his neighbors and its own people that the government represents all Iraqis, both Shia and Sunni. And that remains to be seen over the long term.
BROWN: Fran, let me also ask you. You say that Obama's proposal to start withdrawing troops soon after he is sworn in would encourage al Qaeda to wait it out.
You have got to look at the numbers, though. There are 30 percent of the public out there that believes the war is something we should continue at this stage. How do you justify then staying this course? I mean, you are a realist. You know the political environment we're operating in.
TOWNSEND: No, I think that's right. And I think the case has got to be made to the American people, setting artificial deadlines for withdrawing troops is not the answer.
What the right answer is, is looking at results, looking at the facts on the ground and relying on the advice of commanders. What we want to do winning victory is leaving a stable and secure Iraq that can defend itself and that can govern itself.
BROWN: All right, Fran Townsend and Michael Ware, both for us, thanks, guys.
There is also a political story focused on helping the troops who serve in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. It's an upgrade of the G.I. Bill. But how much should we give them and when? And naturally McCain and Obama have sharply different opinions. McCain says it's another way Obama's inexperience is showing.
We are going to have that coming up in just a moment. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Benefits granted by the World War II-era G.I. Bill are now front and center in the campaign, McCain and Obama locked in a battle over how much more assistance veterans should get.
For more than 60 years, vets in cities and towns all over America have benefited from the original bill. In fact, one such community, Levittown, on New York's Long Island, actually owes its very existence to the bill.
CNN's Randi Kaye went there and found an Iraq war veteran who says his benefits fall far short of the original G.I. Bill's promise.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After two tours in Iraq, Marine Corporal Kevin Grafeld works as a paintball referee.
CPL. KEVIN GRAFELD, IRAQ WAR VETERAN: Both sides, get ready!
KAYE: This former intelligence specialist needs money for college.
(on camera): When you signed up with the Marines, what were you told about college and how much would be covered?
GRAFELD: What I was told was, the G.I. Bill was going to pay for everything, you know, school, books, tuition, you know, living expenses, gas, the whole nine.
KAYE: Kevin says classes here at Nassau Community College cost him answer $1,600 a semester. He gets about $2,400 a semester from the G.I. Bill, but says that's not enough to cover even half his expenses. Factor in books, gasoline to get to campus, even lab fees for science classes, and the G.I. Bill still comes up short.
(voice-over): Corporal Grafeld even moved in with his parents to save money.
GRAFELD: I'm not trying to sound greedy, but I do think we deserve at least a little bit more. I don't want a free ride. But I at least want the ability to stand up on my own two feet and make something of myself.
KAYE: Signed by Franklin Roosevelt in 1944, critics say the G.I. Bill, contributes to veterans' college education, hasn't kept pace with rising costs.
Two proposals are being debated in Congress. Senators Jim Webb and Chuck Hagel want four years' tuition covered at a public university, plus living experiences for veterans who served at least three years. One study estimates, the bill will reduce retention rates by 16 percent. So, John McCain is suggesting an alternative: increase benefits based on length of service to keep troops serving longer in a military stretched thin. Barack Obama threw the first punch.
B. OBAMA: I respect Senator John McCain's service to our country. But I can't understand why he would wind up behind the president in his opposition to this G.I. Bill. I can't believe why he believes it is too generous to our veterans.
KAYE: McCain issued this scathing statement: "I will not accept from Senator Obama, who did not feel it was his responsibility to serve our country in uniform, any lectures on my regard for those who did."
Obama didn't let that go.
B. OBAMA: I think the notion that, somehow, I can't speak out on behalf of veterans because of the fact that I didn't serve makes no sense whatsoever.
KAYE: President Bush threatens to veto the Webb-Hagel bill, though Congress passed it overwhelmingly. The debate goes on. Kevin Grafeld's bills mount.
GRAFELD: We go to Iraq. We go to Afghanistan. We go all to Africa. We do -- we go all over the world and we serve our country. It's a drop of a hat. We do whatever is asked of us. And, when we get out, we're being paid this tiny, tiny amount of money to go to school.
KAYE: Increasing troops' education benefits may cost $2 billion a year. Too much? Consider this. It cost just as much to fight one week of war in Iraq.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Levittown, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When we come back, a combat veteran debates a Republican strategist on the merits and shortcomings of both plans to boost veteran benefits.
This is the ELECTION CENTER.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Let's return now to the battle over the new G.I. Bill.
And here are the candidates, McCain and Obama, clashing over how much veterans' benefits should grow.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. OBAMA: We should make sure that today's veterans get the same benefit that my grandfather got when he came back from World War II. It was a good investment, not only for him, but it was a good investment for the country. It builds our middle class. So, we're going to make sure that that gets passed. MCCAIN: Our bill has a sliding scale that offers generous benefits to all veterans, but increases those veterans' benefits according to the veteran's length of service. It's important to do that, because, otherwise, we will encourage more people to leave the military after they have completed one enlistment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining me now, a combat medic and veteran of the Iraq war, National Guard Sergeant Patrick Campbell. Sergeant Campbell is also legislative director for the group Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. Also in Washington is Brad Blakeman, a Republican strategist and former senior staff member of the Bush White House.
Hey, guys.
Sergeant Campbell, let me start with you.
McCain isn't saying here don't give tuition benefits to veterans. He's just saying, stay in the military for more than three years to try to earn those benefits, and that the longer you serve, the more benefits you get. What's wrong with that?
SGT. PATRICK CAMPBELL, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: What's wrong with that is, is that service members are serving three or four tours in their first enlistment. And 75 percent of service members are getting out of the military after their first enlistment.
So, right now, 400,000 veterans are struggling to go to school on the G.I. Bill. Are we really going to hold them hostage and not give them full education benefits, so we can ensure that 8,000 more soldiers reenlist, when it would only cost, you know, $10 billion to $20 billion -- or $10 million to $20 million more to keep them in the military?
We need to be giving service members a meaningful readjustment benefit. Just this weekend, I buried one of my buddies, because he committed suicide when he came home. And, you know, anyone who is going to be out there and saying we don't need a meaningful readjustment benefit, one that sends these soldiers to school and pay for their full costs, I just don't know what to say.
BROWN: So, Brad, explain that. How is it fair on any level to withhold these benefits? That's what this bill does, the bottom-line version of it, is readjust the benefits and make them more in line with cost of living.
BRAD BLAKEMAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, these benefits that John McCain is talking about are benefits that make sense.
They are a sliding scale based on service. What we're afraid of is that, if these benefits are front-loaded, that, after one tour, these guys are going to leave. What we need to do is convince them to stay.
And let's remember, Campbell, that this is a volunteer army. It's a contract with America that they make when they serve. And when they do, they know exactly what they are getting. And a lot of these benefits that Webb is talking about are retroactive, and the cost of which we don't even know. The GAO can't even put a price tag on it. We're estimating that it's $2.5 billion.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMPBELL: These benefits are not retroactive.
(CROSSTALK)
BLAKEMAN: Let me say to the sergeant, thank you for your service. But, as you know, when you entered the military, you knew exactly what you were getting and what you weren't going to get.
CAMPBELL: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BLAKEMAN: And what we should do is give McCain, who has a breadth of knowledge on the military, the ability to put in a sliding scale system that can be revisited in time. It doesn't mean that this is the way it's going to be. It just says a commonsense approach.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Let's let Sergeant Campbell respond to that.
Go ahead.
CAMPBELL: It's only a two-step sliding scale. You either get three years in or you get 12 years in. There's no -- there's no sliding scale. You are either one or two steps. So, we're basically wanting people to stay in and make this their career.
The other fact of the matter is, is that a lot of these people volunteer, right, you know, and to say that these people then don't deserve the same benefits that we're giving World War II veterans is completely disingenuous. These people serve their country honorably and then, therefore, deserve to be taken care of when they get home.
When these guys get home, they are looking at going back to the same jobs that they had before. What we need to do is what we did in World War II and Korea, invest in these soldiers, invest in these veterans. And they are going to be our leaders 10, 20 years from now.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Brad, let me ask you, because I get what the concern is, is that we're at war right now and there is -- and, as McCain has said, there's serious concern about troop levels.
But there is one report that suggests this new G.I. Bill, that the benefits would actually encourage more people to enlist in the military. And, ultimately, wouldn't that help boost troop levels? Isn't that what you are most worried about? (CROSSTALK)
BLAKEMAN: If you believe the spin of the other side...
BROWN: That's the Congressional Budget Office, Brad.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMPBELL: It's the same report you are quoting. It's a 16 percent increase in high-quality recruits.
BLAKEMAN: But the GAO can't even tell how much it's going to cost. So, you are going to hope against hope.
(CROSSTALK)
BLAKEMAN: ... that there's going to cause more people to join the military. The problem is, what about the folks who have made their deal with America who are serving now?
BLAKEMAN: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BLAKEMAN: They are going to get their tour in. And, most probably, they will leave. And that's what John McCain is worried about, is a drain on the military that's already cut too short.
CAMPBELL: We already know that 75 percent of people who are enlisting are already getting out.
And the Department of Defense has said we're worried about 8,000 service members getting out if this new G.I. Bill -- you know, we're going to sacrifice 400,000 veterans who are struggling to go to school, so we can keep 8,000 more veterans in? And they have also said that it would only cost them $30 million to increase retention bonuses to keep those same people.
(CROSSTALK)
CAMPBELL: So, we're talking about $30 million being the difference between a full tuition education readjustment benefit for every veteran. This is a money issue.
BROWN: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BLAKEMAN: The tragedy of this, in summation, is this, that this has become a political hot potato in a presidential election year by a guy, Senator Webb, who seeks the vice presidency.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right, guys.
BLAKEMAN: And that's unfortunate.
BROWN: Well, I wish he were here to respond to that.
But, anyway, Sergeant Patrick Campbell and Brad Blakeman, appreciate your time, guys. Thanks a lot.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Still ahead tonight: former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan's bombshell book about President Bush.
And then, up next, an Iowa town ravaged by the strongest tornado we have seen this year.
We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Barack Obama gets called out again for his knowledge of history.
And Candy Crowley and our political panel will join me later to talk about that.
(NEWSBREAK)
BROWN: Still ahead, breaking news tonight: President Bush's former spokesman has some very damaging things to say about his old boss.
But next: sand, surf and salsa dancing. Hillary Clinton follows the campaign trail to the beach -- when we return, the stagecraft behind this carefully orchestrated carefree romp in Puerto Rico.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This is it. The last week of the presidential primary season. Puerto Rico votes on Sunday. South Dakota and Montana hold primaries one week from today.
Senator Hillary Clinton is still running as hard as she can. She just wrapped up a town hall in Pablo, Montana. Now, over the weekend, she was in Puerto Rico, and Tom Foreman says that made for some interesting stagecraft.
Tom, for Hillary Clinton, it wasn't exactly a day at the beach, even though, well, it was actually a day at the beach. Help us out here, Tom.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it started off very badly. When she landed in Puerto Rico, look, it was all gloomy there. She was ready for a nice bit of stagecraft, though, when the sun came out the next day. And her staff made her big beach bash look as easy as one, two, three.
And we start off with the one. First, find a good beach. They chose Bocaron, this picture perfect place shown here by a Puerto Rican tourism company. A beautiful spot sure to be crowded on a busy afternoon.
Two, make sure that there is a band. In this case, they coordinated with the mayor's office and they got both lively music and colorful dancers.
And, three, all-important. Put your candidate into casual clothes and let her go. And look at the result they got here. A Disney, magical musical moment.
Clinton looks relaxed, happy, like she's having the time of her life, not fighting for her life to keep her campaign alive. And it helped that local union members handed out stickers, flyers and T- shirts to everybody and his or her dog. And as you look closely, you'll notice there's a dog right there with a Hillary sticker right on in there, Campbell.
BROWN: And, Tom, I know you mentioned the wardrobe. And she's been kidded about her pantsuit, that it seems to me that I saw her in one that same day.
FOREMAN: You did.
This was something of a quick change trick because before going to the beach, she was at church. You can see her right over here, and she's wearing one of those blue pantsuits we've heard so many jokes about, so much talk about. Then she switched into this sort of breezy, hanging out in the surf and sand ensemble, with some snappy Ferragamo shoes down here because, trust me, no candidate wants to be seen in flip-flops. The joke is just too easy.
But just a few hours later, here she is. Back in blue one more time. The message is very clearly. I'm a serious leader, but I also know how to kick back.
BROWN: And, Tom, I've seen candidates wind up being mobbed by so many people that we can barely even get our pictures. So wasn't that a potential issue down on the beach?
FOREMAN: Absolutely. In fact, there's some indication that Senator Clinton threw her team for a loop by wading off into this beach crowd very quickly. But, I want you to look very closely here. If you do look closely, you can see that her staff found some ropes here and they set up sort of an informal reception line and they kept moving along with her.
And what that did is it kept security stable the whole time. It let people get close enough, and it made this well-coordinated stagecraft look just like a comfortable walk amid adoring fans -- Campbell.
BROWN: Well done. All right, Tom Foreman again for us tonight. Tom, thanks.
Republicans say Senator Obama needs to check his facts. The blogs are burning up, taking him to task on his own family history. We'll tell you what he said when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Obama campaign today tried to defuse the flap over remarks that Senator Obama made to veterans at a Memorial Day event yesterday. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
B. OBAMA: I had an uncle who was one of the -- who was part of the first American troops to go into Auschwitz and liberate the concentration camps.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So Obama's statement was incorrect. Auschwitz was one of the concentration camps liberated by the Soviets near the end of World War II. And we want to ask CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley about this. She's with the Obama campaign in northern Las Vegas today.
And, Candy, the words I know were barely out of Obama's mouth before this slip-up was spinning through the blogosphere, and the Obama campaign moved pretty quickly to clear things up, didn't they?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. This remark was made yesterday in the context of mental health services that were needed for veterans, obviously on Veterans Day.
Today, the Obama camp, after all these questions were raised, went back through the family history and issued a statement saying, "Senator Obama's family is proud of the service of his grandfather and uncles in World War II. Especially the fact that his great uncle was a part of liberating one of the concentration camps at Buchenwald."
So what they are saying here is that Auschwitz and Buchenwald, he got mixed up. That it was not Auschwitz, which clearly was in Poland, was liberated by the Soviets. Buchenwald, of course, in Germany, and that is where his great uncle was part of the first forces that went in, in fact, in one of the first camps that was liberated.
So they said, listen, this was just a case of misspeaking. But, in fact, the gist of the story is true.
BROWN: You can see the implications sometimes when these things happen, as we saw with Hillary Clinton on Friday when she referenced the assassination of RFK in relation to when she may be getting out of the race. And I know with regard to Obama, the Republicans were pretty quick to pounce on this. Are they getting any mileage out of the gaffe, though?
CROWLEY: Well, look, it fit right into the McCain Republican storyline and that is that Barack Obama doesn't know enough about the world, doesn't understand national security. He's too untested. He's too naive and they said, listen, that he would mix this up, that he would misstate this. And when they first got a hold of it, the Obama camp had not put out the explanation so the Republican National Committee said this couldn't possibly have happened. And it shows if he's confused about this, that he is not prepared to be commander in chief. So it kind of fit the Republican storyline about Barack Obama not knowing enough about the world to be commander in chief.
BROWN: All right, Candy. Candy Crowley for us tonight.
Candy, as always, thanks.
Coming up on "LARRY KING LIVE" at the top of the hour, the dangers of cell phones. A longstanding debate is heating up again, and Larry is with me now.
Larry, what you got tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Oh, Campbell, you're right. If you use a cell phone you're going to want to tune in.
Johnnie Cochran's widow is with us tonight. She's publicly for the first time since her husband's death, and what may have contributed to his brain cancer, cell phones. We'll also talk to Johnnie's doctor and other experts about the evidence, including our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta, a brain surgeon himself.
Is there any evidence and if so, what is it? It's "LARRY KING LIVE" at the top of the hour, Campbell. It will not be dull.
BROWN: All right. We will you see then. Thanks, Larry.
A White House shocker tonight. Stay with us for the breaking news. Some startling allegations from the president's former spokesman when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: For months now, Barack Obama has been trying to reinforce his patriotic image. Not only is he wearing a flag pin again, he's talking about his family's military ties and his work on veterans issues. But the questions about Obama's patriotism are getting louder and more urgent.
Once again, CNN's Joe Johns.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is Barack Obama doing what you would expect a guy running for president to do on Memorial Day. He's honoring those who sacrificed everything.
B. OBAMA: On this Memorial Day, as our nation honors its unbroken line of fallen heroes, our sense of patriotism is particularly strong.
JOHNS: So take a look at this. October of last year, Obama stopped wearing an American flag lapel pin. But after months of buzz about the issue, the lapel pin was back.
B. OBAMA: I started wearing it again at that veterans event because once again, I had been handed a flag pin by a veteran who said it was important.
JOHNS: There's more to this than meets the eye. Obama's got a polling problem on patriotism, and he's trying to fix it.
Pollsters say it's partly his name. Barack Obama is not exactly John Smith. It's also his unusual childhood. Raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. There was also that comment by his wife Michelle that didn't help.
MICHELLE OBAMA, WIFE OF SENATOR BARACK OBAMA: Let me tell you something. For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country.
JOHNS: Throw in a bunch of whacko e-mails still making the rounds questioning whether Obama is a Muslim. He's not. He's Christian. Whether he puts his hand over his heart for the national anthem, he does, though hasn't always. You get the picture.
Democratic pollster Peter Hart did a focus group in Charlottesville, Virginia, a couple of weeks ago with a handful of independent voters who are just now tuning in to the presidential race.
PETER HART, DEMOCRATIC POLLSTER: What it really comes down to is voters don't know Barack Obama. Patriotism was linked to John McCain. There was no doubt about it. But for Barack Obama, much more uncertainty because his narrative is something they don't understand.
JOHNS: But he's also a different kind of candidate because he's biracial, which brings up the suspicion that his patriotism is being attacked because he's, well, not white. No easy answer to that one. Or is there?
STUART ROTHENBERG, POLITICAL ANALYST: If this was Colin Powell, nobody would raise questions about patriotism. It's the package, the name, the biography, and being a liberal Democrat. He has to deal with all of that rolled up in one ball.
JOHNS: Some analysts who think this could be a problem for Obama are saying he has to fully reintroduce himself and his patriotic values to the voters who don't know him.
Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: I am joined by tonight's panel of political experts. Cliff May is president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a think tank focused on terrorism. He's also a former director of communications for the Republican National Committee.
Also with me, CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger and CNN political analyst, radio talk show host, and a syndicated columnist, Roland martin.
And, Cliff, let me start with you.
I mean, honestly, a lot of this seems like smoke and mirrors. You're fighting here against anonymous attacks, or Obama is. Is there a legitimate reason to question Obama's patriotism?
CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: No, I wouldn't question his patriotism. I think what people are concerned about is what Peter Hart said. They don't know who Barack Obama is.
After all, he has not much of a legislative record. In the state legislature, he often voted present, rather than take a position. He's only been a U.S. senator for a very few years and then you have his associations.
Jeremiah Wright, infamously from the pulpit, asked God to damn America. He's also been close with Tony Rezko who is on trial, and with Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn, who are anti-American terrorists and haven't really been repentant for that. And Khalid Rashidi (ph) who is a radical. So based on these associations, people do question --
BROWN: Those are pretty -- the last few you named at least are pretty thin associations, though, Cliff.
MAY: They're what?
BROWN: They're fairly thin in terms of an association.
MAY: Well, of course, Wright was his pastor for more than 20 years, a very close association. Bill Ayers --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: No, I'm not saying -- I'm not talking about Wright, but the other ones that you named. Bill Ayers --
MAY: Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn essentially held the first fund-raiser and helped him launch his senate career. That's a pretty close association there. Tony Rezko, they have very close associations, including financial entanglements. Tony Rezko bought the lot next to his house so he could get a discount. I don't know --
(CROSSTALK)
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: And Tony Rezko also raised money for Republicans. Come on, Cliff. He also raised money for Republicans.
MAY: He's a guy who has never crossed party --
MARTIN: Stop playing games. Stop playing games.
MAY: Here's a quick --
BROWN: Cliff --
MAY: Here's a quick point if I may.
BROWN: Cliff --
MAY: We don't know enough about him to know what his vision is of the country and what his vision is for the future. A lot of people think America is a terrible place, an evil country. A lot of people think as I do, it's the best country the world has ever seen and I think --
BROWN: OK. All right. All right, Cliff.
Let me let Roland get in here. But, Roland, that point that Cliff made, I think, is a fair point is that to a lot of people, Obama is still undefined in many ways.
And on the patriotism issue, I mean, couldn't a lot of this have been avoided if he had just worn that flag pin from the get-go? I mean, he's wearing it now. Why make it into some big philosophical issue?
MARTIN: Well, first of all, John McCain doesn't wear a flag pin. Hillary Clinton doesn't wear a flag pin and also, there are people who wear flag pins who call themselves patriots who led us into a war based upon faulty intelligence. Here's the real deal, Campbell.
At some point, people need to use their brains. We have somebody who is an American, who is a sitting United States senator, who is running for president. How do we sit here and define somebody's patriotism?
The reality is, he is an American. And so, I have a problem with anybody, Cliff, me, or anyone else saying, you know what, I need to see how much a patriot you are and you are. There is no litmus test.
Another column on CNN.com last week talking about just make the flag -- wearing the flag pin the 28th Amendment, OK, because we sit here and move the ball back and forth. It is a nonsensical issue to say, how do you define patriotism?
BROWN: OK.
MARTIN: It is ridiculous.
BROWN: And you know what, Roland, on that issue, on the flag pin, I couldn't agree with you more.
But, Gloria, let me take this a little bit broader. I mean, why do Democrats have such a problem with this issue, with patriotism generally? Because let's be honest, Obama is not the first candidate to be caught in this trap. Even John Kerry, a Vietnam veteran, dealt with this kind of talk on a smaller level. What's going on with the Democrats?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, even John Kerry who was a war hero himself, look, I think if you take a step back, Americans, when they vote for a president, are voting for someone who could send their son or their daughter to war. It's a very, very important vote for them. They understand it.
Patriotism really means that this person understands the stakes that we are facing now in this country, be it on national security matters and particular, national security has always been a weak spot for the Democratic Party. As terrifically as the Democratic Party is doing by almost every measure in almost every poll, on almost every issue, the one issue they're still a problem, Campbell, is national security.
And what Barack Obama, and you've seen him try to do it, is give people more a sense of his biography of where he came from and why he believes this country is so important, why he loves this country, and then give the voters a sense of how he would work to defend this country because, don't forget, he's running against a bona fide war hero, who as Roland Martin was saying before, gets a pass. He doesn't -- you know, John McCain doesn't have to wear a flag pin.
BROWN: Right. All right, guys.
Stay with us. We've got some breaking news we want to talk about when we come back. The president's former spokesman is making some bombshell accusations. John McCain, of course, is keeping President Bush at arms link as well. We want to talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Breaking news now. President Bush has just left the Phoenix fund-raiser where he and John McCain were side by side. Of course, no cameras were allowed.
But the big story. There are new revelations now from the upcoming book by former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan. According to "Politico.com," McClellan writes that the president has "veered terribly off course and was not open and forthright on Iraq."
Before I bring back our whole political panel, let's hear first from Gloria Borger on this. And, Gloria, McClellan, as you know, a loyal soldier in the Bush White House.
BORGER: Yes.
BROWN: He has some pretty damning things to say about his old boss here, doesn't he?
BORGER: He does, Campbell. You know, we got an early copy of this book just about an hour or so ago and it's really not hard to find the headlines in it. He does call the president authentic and sincere. It's very clear he likes the president, but he says that this White House did turn away from candor and honesty, that the president was ill served by his top advisers.
He says the Iraq war was not necessary. That as press secretary, he had been misled in his statements from the podium, particularly regarding the CIA leak investigation. That, in fact, Karl Rove and Scooter Libby had a secret meeting in the West Wing to get their stories straight.
And then he said after Hurricane Katrina, Campbell, the White House spent most of the first week in denial. He also blames the press. He says the liberal media didn't live up to its reputation. If it had, the country would have been better served.
And he's talking about the run-up to the war in Iraq. So it's kind of the first real nasty kiss and tell we've received out of this White House.
BROWN: I'll say. What's been the reaction, if any, yet from the White House, Gloria?
BORGER: Well, we don't have any reaction on the record yet, Campbell, but it's very clear just from e-mailing folks that they're going to push back hard on this. And they are going to say that this is clearly a disgruntled former staffer trying to essentially clean up his own reputation. But the book will have to speak for itself and they'll have to speak for themselves. I'm sure they will.
BROWN: You have to wonder, though. I was covering the White House part of the time when Scott McClellan was the spokesman there.
BORGER: Right.
BROWN: And you do -- it's very easy to say I was misled from the podium, but you do have to take some responsibility, don't you think, when you're standing up there every day? You know, those words are coming out of your mouth.
BORGER: Right.
BROWN: And you have to be able to defend them. You can't sort of dump it all back on other White House officials.
BORGER: Well, it's very clear, particularly in the CIA leak investigation, Campbell, where he went out there on the podium and said that he had been personally assured that no one inside the White House had been the leak. And that, it was later discovered, that in fact, that was not the case. That he is still very angry about this because he felt that his own personal credibility had essentially been destroyed, and this is one of the ways he's trying to get that back.
BROWN: And finally, I guess you have to wonder, too, why save it for the book? Why not come clean early on when it might have done more good, instead of waiting until you're about to go on your book tour. But we can talk about that a little bit later.
BORGER: Right.
BROWN: We are -- we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with Gloria and the rest of the panel shortly. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back now with CNN senior political analyst Gloria Borger. We're talking about this new book from former White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan which is just coming out, extremely critical of President Bush.
And, Gloria, let me ask you, how much of an impact do you think this book is going to have? Do you think the words coming from McClellan are going to resonate?
BORGER: Well, I think it's interesting because I think anyone going into government or anyone who has been in government might be interested in this book because he talks about something that we're talking about a lot during this campaign, Campbell, and that is what he calls an excessive embrace of the permanent campaign approach to governance. That he said essentially has occurred in the Clinton administration, also occurred in the Bush administration. That people didn't know when the campaign ended and governing should start.
And he said, in fact, in this book, it's interesting. He says the president should appoint a deputy chief of staff for governing so that something can actually get done. And so, those folks inside an administration who want to establish a permanent war room at some point ought to be told, you know what, that's not what we're here for. We're here to govern. And he admits to a bunch of mistakes in this book of his own and points out the ways that the government could actually get a little bit more done.
BROWN: But why didn't he speak out, especially on the allegations about Iraq and on the Scooter Libby stuff? Why hasn't he spoken out before now?
BORGER: Well, obviously, he wanted to tell his whole and complete story, Campbell. I can't speak to his motives because I don't really know them.
BROWN: I know.
BORGER: But people very often leave administrations and write and write books. But this administration, so far, has not really had a book that's been really critical of the internal workings of the Bush administration, because as you know, Campbell, these folks have really stuck together. They've been very loyal, by and large, to each other, as well as to the president.
BROWN: Right.
BORGER: And again, he doesn't really come out and criticize the president.
BROWN: OK. Gloria, we've got to go.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.
We'll see you tomorrow night.
