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Campbell Brown
Bill Clinton Speaks Out on Presidential Race; McCain, Obama Trade Fire Over Energy Policy
Aired August 04, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there, everybody.
So, here's how bad the energy crisis is getting. Some members of Congress actually are doing the unthinkable. They're refusing to take their summer vacation.
A couple of dozen Republicans say they're going to stay on the House floor as long as it takes to get a vote on offshore drilling. Of course, since the Democrats have all gone home, there's not going to actually be a vote.
So, listen up, critics. We call them as we see them. And the whole thing is essentially an act of stagecraft. It is Kabuki theater, an unadulterated photo-op.
Now, the last time something like this happened, it was the Democrats, and they were talking about impeaching President Bush. We thought that was equally silly. We called them on it, more Kabuki theater. And we heard from some of you at home who weren't very happy with us.
Well, we just want to say that we're calling them out every time we see it, regardless of which side they're on. We're going to talk about that. We are going to have more on the candidates and their energy plans coming up in just a moment, as always, no bias, no bull.
And then, later, if you thought Bill Clinton was just going to go quietly when Hillary Clinton dropped out of the race, well, you didn't really think that that was going to happen, did you? He told ABC's "Good Morning America" there are still what he called strong feelings about Barack Obama and the campaign.
Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are things that I wish I had urged her to do, things I wish I hadn't said -- things I wish I hadn't said. But I am not a racist. I never made a racist comment. And I didn't attack him personally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Well, as we all know, politics is personal.
So, just how big is the chip on Bill Clinton's shoulder? Will he campaign for Barack Obama?
And, tonight, take a look at this. This is live pictures of the Olympic torch relay, as China counts down to the start of the Summer Games in just a few days. But China and human rights, the problems they just can't hide from. Will the genocide in Darfur grab some of the Olympic spotlight?
We're going to have all that tonight in the ELECTION CENTER, no bias, no bull.
But we begin tonight with the outrage over energy. It is turning into the issue of the campaign. But for all the hot air in Washington, as we mentioned before, on this very subject, Congress has come up with nothing more than this giant photo-op.
So, what would the candidates do?
Jessica Yellin is live in Washington with that part of story.
And, Jessica, I know Democrats traditionally do well, they win when they're talking about economic issues, like gas prices. But John McCain has gotten some real traction with this issue, by pushing offshore drilling. And Obama, that campaign is beginning to realize it, aren't they?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they are, Campbell.
The polls shows that John McCain has gotten traction on this issue. So, now Obama is trying to sort of take back the lead in the conversation on gas prices. And one way he's fighting for it is with a new ad accusing John McCain of being in the pocket of the oil industry, saying that McCain is just like, guess who, President George Bush.
The other piece of the Obama effort is to outline a new plan to make our economy run on renewable energy. So, it's sort of a 1-2 punch -- Campbell.
BROWN: And he's laying out his new energy plan, Obama is. But what is new here is very ambitious. Talk us through what he's proposing.
YELLIN: Yes, ambitious is the word. Here's how he put it today. Let's listen to Obama himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If I am president, I will immediately direct the full resources of the federal government and the full energy of the private sector, working with state and local governments, to achieve a single overarching goal. In 10 years, we will eliminate the need for oil from the entire Middle East and Venezuela, in 10 years time.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) OBAMA: Ten years is how long it's going to take.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: So, no oil from Venezuela and the Middle East. Well, how does he plan to do that? In part with tax credits and incentives that will, among other things, put one million plug-in hybrid cars on the road in six years, get us to use 10 percent of our energy from renewable sources in four years, and reduce our use of electricity by 15 percent in the next decade.
Now, even Obama acknowledges, well, that's asking a lot. But he says it is possible if we make it a priority -- Campbell.
BROWN: And, Jessica, we also saw Obama do a pretty significant about-face on offshore oil drilling. He now says that he would be open to the idea. Why the change of heart?
YELLIN: Right. Well, Obama says he's not actually in favor of drilling, but he thinks that the oil companies should use the acres that they already have available, but haven't touched. He says that he is however willing to compromise. And if that's what it takes to get a comprehensive energy bill done, so be it. He will be in favor of offshore drilling just to reach an accommodation. He says it's not a flip-flop. It's an accommodation.
BROWN: OK. Interesting wording there. All right, Jessica Yellin for us tonight -- Jessica, thanks.
So, are the candidates just fighting a war of words on energy?
Here to talk about that with us is radio and TV talk show host Joe Pagliarulo, CNN political analyst Roland Martin. And a big welcome to a new CNN contributor, "Washington Post" national political correspondent Dana Milbank, who is making his debut right here on our show tonight.
Dana, welcome to you.
DANA MILBANK, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks.
BROWN: Joe, I'm going to start with you.
As Jessica just told us, Senator Obama recently switched his position on offshore drilling, something that is getting increasingly popular. Republicans now saying that he is just following the polls on this. Obama, as you heard Jessica say, says he's Mr. Compromise.
What's so wrong about that? Should he be slammed for changing his mind?
JOE PAGLIARULO, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I am going to make an accommodation and give you an answer.
He's making an accommodation. Come on. What he's doing is, he's playing politics. And maybe she should. Campbell, I think you make a very good point. He should compromise if he wants to get those votes.
But, see, here's the problem. When there are people out there who are undecided -- 9 percent are undecided -- when there are people out there who still, I think, can go from one side to the other, you have got to grab onto what you really believe in and tell people what it is that you really believe in.
I so far really don't have a clue as to what Barack Obama would do -- 10 years without oil from Venezuela or the Middle East, well, he never mentioned that we would have to drill offshore to make that happen. Of course he knows you would have to do that. Of course he's going to make an accommodation, because that accommodation actually would allow him to follow through on that policy.
So, he can do something that the evil conservatives want to do, as long as he gets down the road and says, see, I told you I wanted to do this within 10 years, and now I have done it, and I have made an accommodation.
BROWN: Well, OK, Roland, Republicans may have a flip-flop field day with this issue. But the fact is John McCain used to be on the other side of this, too.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's right. And it's amazing how Joe did not even mention that.
The reality is, John McCain changed his position based upon the polls as well. Now, what you also see, I think with this, when you talk about the nuance of an argument, Obama is trying to say, well, look, if we're going to advance an energy policy, there might have to be compromise.
The problem is when you're running for office, that's not really where you discuss compromise. It's always pretty much black or white. That is, I'm for or I'm against. And so it's typically is compromise once you're in the White House or once you're back at the Senate.
BROWN: A risky strategy to be doing this during a campaign?
MARTIN: No, it is. But I think here's what really should happen and what I would like to see McCain and Obama do, vs. McCain saying today, Obama should be calling for Democrats to come back. No, I want to see McCain and Obama go back to their day jobs, go to D.C., stand next to each other and say, we're calling on Congress to come back or the president to force them to come back to drive an energy policy home. They won't do that.
BROWN: Roland, you're living in lala land.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right, hold on.
Dana, I want throw up some numbers. This is what Obama proposed today, a $1,000 tax credit for families paid by taxing the windfall profits of oil companies. He also said that he wants to dip into the Strategic Oil Reserve.
Critics say this is essentially quick fix, gimmicky kind of stuff, doesn't get to the heart of the problem. Is it? Is it all smoke and mirrors that we're getting from him?
DANA MILBANK, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, there are gimmicks and there are other things involved as well. You can tell that we're getting close to the Olympics right now because it's starting to look like a diving competition.
McCain did the first flip-flop on the drilling. And now Obama has executed the rarely attempted double flip-flop, doing not just the drilling, but also the Strategic Petroleum Reserves.
This doesn't mean it's a bad policy or bad idea. It may be a show of confidence by Obama that he's really got his base locked up to the extent that he can start fighting for voters in the middle. He is making an accommodation. He is making an accommodation to reality, and that is if anything is going to get through this rather lethargic time in Congress, it's going to have to be some sort of give-and-take.
BROWN: All right, guys, stay with me. We are going to keep talking about this a lot more on this issue as we dig deeper into the candidates' energy plans.
Up next, you're going to hear what Barack Obama said today. And then later, also, we will hear from John McCain.
And then Bill Clinton, will he be on the same page with Obama at the Democratic Convention?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Both presidential candidates are talking up their energy plans today. They're also taking plenty of shots at one another.
We are going to listen to each candidate tell it to us straight, no bias, no bull.
Barack Obama rolled out his latest energy plans. This was in Lansing, Michigan, earlier today. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: One million plug-in hybrid cars on the road; doubling our energy from clean renewable sources like wind power or solar power; and two billion gallons of affordable biofuels; new buildings that are 50 percent more energy efficient; and putting people back to work, making those buildings more energy efficient. So there is a real choice in this election, Lansing, a choice about what kind of future we want for this country and this planet.
Senator McCain would not take the steps or achieve the goals that I have outlined today. His plan invests very little in renewable sources of energy, and he's opposed to helping the auto industry retool.
Like George Bush and Dick Cheney before him, he sees more offshore drilling as the answer to all of our energy problem. And like George Bush and Dick Cheney, he's found a receptive audience in the very same oil companies that have blocked our progress for so long.
In fact, John McCain raised more than $1 million from big oil just last month, most of which came after he announced his plan for offshore drilling in a room full of cheering oil executives. His initial reaction to the bipartisan energy compromise was to reject it because it took away tax breaks from oil companies. And even though he doesn't want to spend much on renewable energy, he's actually proposed giving $4 billion more in tax breaks to the biggest oil companies in America, including $1. 2 billion to ExxonMobil.
Now, understand, ExxonMobil is a corporation that just recorded the largest profit in the history of the United States. This is the company that last quarter made $1,500 every second. That's more than $300,000 in the time it takes you to fill up a tank with gas that's costing you four bucks a gallon. Senator McCain not only wants them to keep every dime of that money, he wants to give them more.
So make no mistake, the oil companies have placed their bet on Senator McCain, and if he wins, they will continue to cash in while our families and our economy suffer and our future is put in jeopardy. That's not the future I see for America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, John McCain says, what you just heard, well, it's not straight talk about the energy crisis. We're going to hear his views coming up next.
And, then, my political panel will weigh in on what both the candidates had to say.
Then, a little bit later, Bill Clinton weighing in again about what happened during presidential primaries, and still sounds pretty hot under the collar. You're going to want to hear it.
Plus, Dick Cheney, is he really skipping the Republican Convention? What's going on?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: On the campaign trail today, Barack Obama and John McCain are battling over energy. We just heard from Senator Obama.
Senator McCain talked to reporters while touring a label-making company near Philadelphia.
Let's listen now to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R-AZ), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And we need an all-of-the-above approach. We need to aggressively develop alternative energies, like wind, solar, tide, biofuels, and geothermal. But we also need to expand our use of existing energy resources here at home.
That means we need more nuclear power. It means we need clean coal technology. And that means we need to offshore drill for oil and natural gas. We need to drill here and we need to drill now. And anybody who says that we can achieve energy independence without using and increasing these existing energy resources either doesn't have the experience to understand the challenge we face, or isn't giving the American people some straight talk.
Unfortunately, Senator Obama continues to oppose offshore drilling. He continues to oppose the use of nuclear power. These misguided policies would result in higher energy costs to American families and businesses and increased dependence on foreign oil. We're not going to achieve energy independence by inflating our tires.
I'm going to lead our nation to energy independence and I'm going to do it with a realistic and comprehensive all of the above approach that uses every resource available to finally solve this crisis.
As a lot of Americans know, the Congress, doing nothing, decided to go on a five-week recess without addressing the energy challenge that's affecting Americans every single day in their ability to go to work, in their ability to do their jobs, and their ability to keep inflation down as they're trying to do here at the National Label Company, and they need a Congress that will act.
Congress should come back into session. Congress should come back into session, and I'm willing to come off the campaign trail. I call on Senator Obama to call on Congress to come back into town and come back to work, come off their recess, come off their vacation, and address this energy challenge to America and don't leave until we do. Republican and Democrat joining together and a very vital part of that is nuclear power, and another vital part of that is offshore drilling.
We have to drill here and drill now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Back with me once again, conservative radio and TV talk show Joe Pagliarulo, CNN political analyst Roland Martin, and "Washington Post" national political correspondent Dana Milbank, who is also now a CNN contributor.
Joe, Obama has a real simple answer to John McCain. He says McCain is in the pocket of the oil industry. He has got a new ad out saying McCain has taken millions of dollars from oil executives; that's why McCain doesn't want to hold those oil companies accountable.
PAGLIARULO: Well, it's kind of funny, because I will bet Barack Obama with all the money that he's raised for his campaign, Campbell, has a lot of people who actually make money off the oil industry.
You know, the oil industry, when it makes all these profits, it doesn't go to John big oil's pocket. It goes to those who are the stockholders. These are regular Americans who -- you know, 401(k) plans, pension plans. This isn't money that's going to some big evil oil head guy. This is an all-American industry that has been around for hundreds of years now. And Barack Obama, he needs to back off of that.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Joe, can you answer the question?
PAGLIARULO: No, hold on a second, Roland.
I've got to tell you something. When Barack Obama, when he talks about tapping into the strategic oil reserve, Roland, you and I know, what's that for? It's not to help fix the economy or lower oil prices. That's in case we get attacked and we strategically need that oil to go and fight a war or to sustain ourselves.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He's not the first person, Joe, who's proposed this.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: No, Nancy Pelosi proposed that, for goodness' sakes.
MARTIN: But, also, Republicans have done it over the years, proposed it as well.
PAGLIARULO: And it was a horrible idea...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Joe, it's very simple. Answer the question.
The reality, Campbell, is, yes, after he flipped, John McCain, when it came to oil drilling, a ton of money came flowing in from the oil folks. The reality is, whether it's insurance companies, it's trial companies, both candidates get money.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Hold on. Hold on.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: At $2,300 a pop. It wasn't a million dollars from one guy. That's illegal.
MARTIN: Right.
(CROSSTALK) BROWN: The McCain campaign has been clear in saying that upwards of $400,000 Obama has taken from the oil money. Nobody's hands are clear here.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: No.
And what happens is, both candidates try to show disparities. And that is, McCain a million-plus, Obama $400,000, no different in the primaries, when he hit Hillary Clinton on insurance money. But he also got insurance money. That's what campaigns...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right.
Dana, we're hearing McCain accusing congressional Democrats of going on vacation, instead of passing an energy plan. He said he would actually be willing to drop off the trail -- Roland's suggestion from earlier -- go back to Congress to try to get something passed.
I mean, is this for real? Could you ever see this happening, or more political theater?
MILBANK: That's very generous of Senator McCain, since he wasn't actually in the Congress when they were in session recently.
Of course it's entirely political theater. I sat through an entire morning in the House chamber with the C-SPAN cameras off and the lights off and the microphones off about them howling about coming back into session.
What's happened here is, obviously, gas prices are the most important things on voters' minds right now. Each side has picked out what they think is a no-lose position, if Obama can keep hammering away at ExxonMobil and their stock price, and if McCain can hammer away on the drilling. So, they're sort of talking past each other.
The truth is, underneath all of this, we actually sort of see the contours of what Congress can do about it. Actually, the fact of the matter is, as Congress has done nothing over the last month, gas prices have dropped about a quarter. So, maybe the solution...
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: The Democratically controlled Congress, by the way.
BROWN: Go ahead, Joe.
PAGLIARULO: Well, it's a Congress that is controlled by liberals and Democrats.
And, listen, you know what? Even if Barack Obama wins in November, you can kick those Democrats out of the House and out of the Senate, and guess what, Roland? We will have even more to talk about then.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: The Republicans ran it for six years and did absolutely nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right, all right, all right.
PAGLIARULO: How much were we paying for gasoline in '06, Roland? How much were we paying?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Accept it, Joe.
BROWN: OK. Hold this debate for later.
PAGLIARULO: Please.
BROWN: Much, much more with our panel.
But I want to move on a little bit. Our latest polling shows seven out of 10 Americans now actually favor offshore oil drilling. One of the reasons Americans had been leery about it for so long is the possibility of oil spills.
Well, tomorrow, right here on the ELECTION CENTER, David Mattingly is going to take us back to the scene of one of the worst oil spills in U.S. history. In Alaska's Prince William Sound, they still to this day feel the effects from the Exxon Valdez. That's tomorrow 8:00 p.m. in the ELECTION CENTER. You're going to want to see that.
OK. So, the guys are going to stick with me. There is another big political story we have to talk about tonight, Bill Clinton unplugged. He is speaking out for the first time since the primary battle, still sounding a little bit bitter.
Check out what he told ABC's "Good Morning America."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I got bad press. Why? Because I told the truth, that there was a different standard applied to the finest candidate I ever supported.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. A chip on that shoulder, do you think?
MARTIN: Yes.
(LAUGHTER) BROWN: I don't know. Barack Obama, can he make it all better? We are going to hear more from the former president a little bit later in the program.
And, next, in our news briefing, we will have the latest on the medical condition of Oscar winner Morgan Freeman, who was in a serious car accident last night.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Later on, a look at China's politics pride. As the Beijing Olympic Games are set to begin, is China turning a blind eye to the atrocities in Darfur because of the oil it gets from Sudan? We will get into that shortly.
But, first, Erica Hill here with tonight's briefing -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, forecasters say Tropical Storm Edouard could be a hurricane when it makes landfall tomorrow. Downpours and gusty winds expected in Louisiana and Texas. Tropical storm warnings were posted tonight along the Gulf Coast.
Oscar winner Morgan Freeman is in serious condition tonight at a Memphis hospital after his car flipped last night along a northern Mississippi highway. A woman in the car was also injured. Freeman's business partner tells CNN the actor broke several bones and will need surgery. He's 71 years old.
The feds want to question Mary-Kate Olsen about Heath Ledger's fatal overdose, but she isn't talking. Olsen's lawyer says she had nothing to do with the drugs found in Ledger's apartment. Investigators say Ledger after accidentally overdosing on prescription painkillers, which he got illegally.
And Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, accused of covering up campaign gifts, tells reporters today he is innocent. In his home state, Stevens said the day he was indicted was one of the worst days of his life. The senator has asked the judge to move his trial from Washington to Alaska, where most of the witnesses are.
BROWN: All right, Erica, thanks very much.
Bill Clinton back in the spotlight tonight. Wait until you hear what the former president says now about the campaign and his own behavior during the primaries.
And what is this we are hearing? One big no-show at the GOP Convention? Who is it? We are working the phones here in the ELECTION CENTER. We will have that for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And what is this we are hearing? One big no show at the GOP convention? Who is it? We are working the phones here in the ELECTION CENTER. We'll have that for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Bill Clinton, back in statesman mode now, traveling all over the world working on his anti-AIDS initiative. Well, today, the former president was in Mexico City for the 17th International AIDS Conference. And, of course, he can never completely leave the campaign trail behind. And the question here at home is, will he get on board Barack Obama's train?
Well, as Tom Foreman tells us, when it comes to Bill Clinton, politics is always personal.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The former president was in Africa, talking up health care, as he has before, for his charitable foundation. But when ABC News asked if he has regrets about his performance in his wife's campaign against Obama, he did not sound charitable.
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There are things that I wish I had urged her to do, things I wish I had said and things I wish I hadn't said. But I am not a racist, I never made a racist comment, and I didn't attack him personally.
He hit her hard a couple of times and they hit us a few times, and weeks before she ever responded in kind. The only thing I ever got mad about was people in your line of work pretended that she had somehow started the negative stuff.
FOREMAN: Mr. Clinton took particular exception to media coverage of his wife and his work on her behalf.
CLINTON: I got bad press. Why? Because I told the truth, that there was a different standard applied to the finest candidate I ever supported. Now, I will be glad, as soon as this election is over in January, to have (ph) this conversation with you and everybody else. I have very strong feelings about it.
FOREMAN: Mr. Clinton has said for weeks that he fully supports Senator Obama now, but it is still not clear what that means. Not clear how much he will campaign for Obama, when he might speak at the Democratic Convention, or what role he or his wife would play in an Obama administration. So those close to the Clintons are grumbling.
JOHN HARRIS, POLITICO: They feel that Barack Obama should be working harder to help Hillary Clinton retire her debt. They feel he should be looking more closely at Hillary Clinton as a vice- presidential nominee. They feel he should be paying more respect to both Clintons for the contributions they've made to the Democratic Party.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOREMAN: Democratic Party leaders continue to say publicly all of this will be smoothed over by convention time. But privately, they are looking at their calendars -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Tom Foreman for us tonight. Well, we all know politics is personal. With Bill Clinton still smarting over what went on in the primaries, can the Democrats ever be one big happy family or certainly in time for Denver?
Tonight's panel is back. Joe Pagliarulo, conservative radio TV talk show host, CNN political analyst Roland Martin, and Dana Milbank, new CNN contributor, national political correspondent for the "Washington Post."
So, Dana, what do you think is going on with Bill Clinton right now? That was a pretty amazing interview. I mean, he's still clearly angry, isn't he?
DANA MILBANK, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Right. And you got to admire the way he denies being angry in a very angry way. You sort of thought he might stick up, you know, point the index finger the way he does and start wagging it at you there.
He is clearly in need of some sort of recovery from this campaign. It did a great deal of damage to his reputation. It seems that in the sort of stages of grief here, he's still pretty well submerged in the anger and denial.
BROWN: But time is running out. I mean, he needs to get on with that recovery phase and start campaigning if he's going to part of the...
MILBANK: You're not kidding. Yes.
BROWN: ... part of the show.
MILBANK: It's hard to picture him really being out there waving his -- holding arms with Obama in triumph. And Obama really wants to keep him at arms length anyway. You know, the worst thing to do is let Bill Clinton be Bill Clinton. You never know what might come out of his mouth.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Campbell, if you want to know the principle reason why Senator Hillary Clinton is not being considered for vice president, that interview. That is the absolute last thing you want as a nominee in terms of Bill Clinton saying whatever and doing whatever. And yet, it is time to get over it.
And I know all these Clintons supporters are saying, well, Obama is not showing him proper respect. He needs to be helping her pay her debt off. I'm sorry. He's trying to win the White House. That's his primary job. And so, frankly, their concerns right now are secondary and at some point, they need to deal with that.
BROWN: But you can't though --
JOE PAGLIARULO, RADIO & TV TALK SHOW HOST: Yes.
BROWN: Joe, I want to ask you... PAGLIARULO: Sure of that.
BROWN: ... you can't deny the number of votes that she got in this primary campaign.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
BROWN: And you do hear people make the argument that he can't take the tact that Roland is suggesting here.
PAGLIARULO: Well, you know, I actually kind of agree with Roland. But I have to -- I have to jump on and tell you, yes, he needs the help of the Clintons big time.
I have to stop for a second and say how weird was that answer? It's like the reporter said, hey, how do you like the weather today? And he went on I'm not a racist. It was very, very odd. It came out of nowhere.
BROWN: Well, why is that weird? What is odd? Stop on that for a second.
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: Right. Sure.
BROWN: I mean, what was going through his head? I mean, why did he even take it in that direction?
(CROSSTALK)
PAGLIARULO: It's like he's got guilt or something. It's like he feels guilty and he wants to say to the American public, listen, I was branded a racist during this primary season and I want everybody to know I'm not a racist. And, by the way, I'll support the candidate when it's time to. He's very odd.
MARTIN: Joe, Bill Clinton said it because frankly he is treated -- being treated like the prodigal son of the black community. That was his home. He loved being in black churches.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
MARTIN: Frankly, he can't go in those now. And so, he has a problem because his black base is gone.
PAGLIARULO: But he did that, Roland. He did that.
BROWN: And Dana --
MARTIN: I agree, Joe. He did it. I agree.
PAGLIARULO: But if somebody asks about race then answer about race. But if you ask me something about what color of car I like, and I say I'm not a racist...
BROWN: All right.
PAGLIARULO: ... what do I feel guilty about something. You know, come on.
BROWN: So, Dana, answer this question for me. Two questions, frankly. Number one, why can't Hillary Clinton just tell him to shut up and stay out of it?
(LAUGHTER)
And, two, is this really a problem that Obama, in your view, does need to make nice with the Clintons? Or is this sort of a creation of Washington and media insiders that you can't win this unless...
MILBANK: Right.
BROWN: ... you're all hug and kisses with the Clintons?
MILBANK: Well, clearly, nobody tells Bill Clinton to do anything, most of all shut up. That's something that's not going to be in the cards.
Now, I think that this was a much bigger problem a month or two ago. You sort of see that the air has come out of the sails of the "draft Hillary for VP." She's sort of taken herself out. The whole thing has kind of collapsed that way.
What the Obama campaign needs to do is really make nice. It doesn't mean they really need to go overboard to win back the Clinton supporters at this point. They have to be seen as not inflicting further wound. I mean, the Bill Clinton you're seeing there is a very wounded man, very clearly, by the way he's responding.
MARTIN: But, Dana, there has to be a point when you have to get over yourself. When I hear Clinton supporters continue to say he hasn't hired enough of her people, he's not doing more enough to retire her debt. I mean, at some point, they're going to have to realize, she did lose. Bill has to accept it, too.
BROWN: But going back to my earlier question, what do you think is going...
PAGLIARULO: Yes.
BROWN: Joe, what do you think is going through Hillary Clinton's mind when she's watching this interview?
PAGLIARULO: I think she's got to stay away from the fray. I think she says people at some point have to realize that that's Bill, I'm Hillary, and if they can make that separation, maybe things will go -- I think we'll go forward to November better.
I, by the way, have to tell you -- and, Roland, I'm going to fight you on this tooth and nail -- Obama is not doing much for Hillary Clinton as much as Hillary Clinton's people are complaining about Obama. It's happening on both sides right now, and Obama is the one that can stop this simply by saying she's going to be my secretary of state. She's going to be a part of my administration somehow. Bill Clinton is --
MARTIN: She's already got a job, Joe. She's a U.S. senator. You already have a job. When John Kerry lost, where did he go? Back to the Senate.
(CROSSTALK)
When John McCain lost, where did he go? Back to the Senate. You already have a job.
PAGLIARULO: I'm telling you what? She's got to be part of this. She's got to be part of this administration. She's got to be part of it or else there's going to be big trouble for Obama in November.
BROWN: OK, guys, stay right there. Lots more to talk about.
Coming up, McCain and Obama, and Paris and Britney. Negative GOP campaigning that is getting buzz and apparently having an impact on voters.
Then Beijing and Olympic politics. The red hot debate over the way China does business in Sudan. We will talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. One of the richest men in the world says he can solve the energy crisis. He's with Larry tonight. Tell us more about it, Larry.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": He sure is, Campbell. The man who's made billions from oil now says that we need a new source of energy. He's T. Boone Pickens and he's here to tell us his plan for solving the crisis.
Governor Bill Richardson will be aboard, and Governor Haley Barbour will join us. And Sir Richard Branson and others will talk about the issue that seems to become more pressing everyday -- the energy mess. And is there a way out? Next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you soon.
And we have got lots more to talk about tonight, including Vice President Cheney, a possible no show at the Republican Convention.
And then there are all the negative campaign ads. Everybody complains, but here's the dirty little secret, they work. And they may be working especially well for John McCain right now. We'll take a look at that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You know, nobody could have predicted that John McCain would compare Barack Obama to Britney Spears and Paris Hilton, but McCain's decision to hit Obama hard has given him a boost. CNN's poll of polls shows McCain is gaining now. Obama is now at 47 percent, McCain 43 percent.
CNN'S Ed Henry has more on the nasty campaigning and its impact. And, Ed, talk to us about this strategy. What's going on behind the slew of negative ads?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, it's really all about trying to define Barack Obama, bringing his poll numbers down. And it's really to the relief of some Republicans that John McCain is finally driving sort of a consistent message, which is trying to get tough with Barack Obama.
He's had a lot of fits and starts. These negative ads are really focusing on Obama. There has been blowback. Obviously, you have the former McCain strategist, Mike Murphy. He was on NBC yesterday saying that this ad is a mistake, that it compares Obama to celebrities like Britney Spears. He said it's a dumb idea and a distraction for McCain trying to show he's really a different kind of Republican.
You had CNN contributor David Gergen on ABC yesterday saying that a second ad claiming Obama has anointed himself as using code words to suggest the Democrat is sort of out of the mainstream, though the McCain camp denies the ads are sending any kind of signals other than this. That they believe Obama is not prepared to run the country and the bottom line is Republican strategists believe these negative ads are working.
BROWN: Well, there are -- I was going to say there are Republicans, he mentioned Mike Murphy, who said that they believe this new tone could ultimately backfire. Are you hearing the same kind of concern?
HENRY: Absolutely. And what Republicans are privately saying is, look, there's only so far that McCain can take this. He can try to define Obama by tearing him down, but eventually he has to go back to being a good cop, if you will, and basically define himself and say, look, as president, here's what I, John McCain, would do. Here's where I would take the country. And basically where he could possibly make that pivot later this month is by picking a vice presidential nominee who would may be sort of be the attack dog, be the bad cop, whereas McCain can go back to a more positive agenda.
BROWN: Right. And, Ed, quickly, I want to ask you about one more thing. A lot of buzz out there that there will be a big no show at the Republican Convention. Tell us what you're hearing.
HENRY: That's right. You know, Vice President Dick Cheney's office is telling me they still haven't worked out the schedule. They're not sure whether the vice president will be at the Republican Convention in Minnesota.
McCain campaign officials are saying they haven't released any details, but I'm hearing from Republican officials privately that there's sort of this mutual understanding between the White House and the McCain campaign that it's very unlikely Vice President Cheney will be there. The bottom line is that the McCain camp wants to turn the page -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Ed Henry for us tonight. Ed, thanks.
We want to find out now what Joe Pagliarulo, Roland Martin and Dana Milbank think of this -- the negative attacks coming from John McCain.
And, Dana, let me start with you again. You know, McCain in a bit of a catch-22 here. He initially promised he wasn't going to do these negative personal attacks, but guess what? He did. And they do seem to be working for him if you believe these polls.
MILBANK: They work and they always work. And we always go through this little dance when everybody says, I'm a different kind of politician, I'm post partisan, I'm a maverick. And of course when it comes right down to it, you need to drive the other guy's numbers down.
If anything, they haven't gone negative enough just yet. I mean, think about four years ago, they had practically turned John Kerry into a war criminal by now with the "Swift Boat" campaign. So undoubtedly, there's more to come and while voters tell pollsters that they really don't like this, they respond to it very clearly.
So, you know, you can have some blowback. I don't think we're anywhere near that danger right now. They came pretty close with the race card, but you saw both sides sort of retreat from that.
BROWN: Right.
MILBANK: Now, they're, you know, talking about tire pressure gauges and that sort of thing. That's pretty tame stuff.
BROWN: Roland, it does seem like he has struck a nerve here. You know, they're hitting on this Obama, the presumptuous president, Obama's arrogant. And it seems to be, again, if you look at the poll numbers, the message that's resonating.
MARTIN: Well, obviously, because they definitely want to target him. But also I think by them going negative, they also want to draw him into that mud fight which then takes away this whole view of change and a different kind of politics and show. I think the Obama people are sort of grappling with that as well, how do you respond effectively, well, then you don't become as negative as well.
BROWN: But why is it that this Paris Hilton ad it seems to be connecting in the way that it does?
MARTIN: Because we are -- because we are in an "American Idol" world. Because we operate what's all about celebrity cultures so when you mix celebrity and politics together, then all of a sudden they're responding. I think that's one of the reasons why you see it.
Now, again, the Obama folks, if I'm Obama, you know, I will say, guess what, John McCain, you might be 71, I'm going to be more the adult here. If you want to spend all of your time focusing on celebrities, that's fine. I'm trying to focus on the rest of the country.
PAGLIARULO: I would be careful, Roland. I think that just getting his age out there was very artful, my friend.
MARTIN: No. No, no, no.
PAGLIARULO: Oh, he's 71. Come on.
MARTIN: It's smart because McCain has been making the point that he's young and naive.
PAGLIARULO: Right.
MARTIN: And I think you flip it. Make him look like a child by playing with celebrities because you look more like grownups. That's how you do it.
PAGLIARULO: Just what the records show I have not mentioned Obama's youth yet tonight. Now, the bottom line is --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: OK.
MARTIN: He just turned 47, Joe.
BROWN: Go ahead, Joe.
PAGLIARULO: These ads absolutely work and I think all of us on the panel tonight agree with that. They work and Obama is doing exactly what Roland doesn't want him to do.
He is responding to it. He is looking angry when he's responding to it. He did anoint himself over in Europe and the Middle East.
I came to Florida. I'm visiting Florida right now, right, with my parents. And my mother said, what do you think about Obama going to Europe and doing all that? I said, I don't know, what do you think of that, mommy?
You know, it looked like he thought he was the president already. That means something. Voters in Middle America are going to see this guy as anointing himself and he needs to listen to you, Roland Martin, if he wants to have a chance to know better.
MARTIN: Maybe voters in Middle America should accept that. Maybe our presidential candidate should look presidential and nothing like bums.
BROWN: All right. Hey, guys, we're almost out of time.
PAGLIARULO: Not before they're the president.
BROWN: And I just want to ask Dana before we go about what Ed Henry mentioned at the end of his report, you know, about Dick Cheney possibly not going to the Republican Convention. He is still popular with the Republican base.
MILBANK: Well, yes, which is now down to about 17 percent of the voting.
PAGLIARULO: Oh, stop it. Come on!
MILBANK: But what -- I think what I'm hearing the same thing that Ed is. There is nothing official out there, but it's definitely in McCain's interest to get this man an all-expense paid trip to Australia to go hunting about that.
MARTIN: Where's he going? Where's he going? Hit the bunker.
BROWN: But, Joe -- OK, Joe, you get the final word. I've got like 15 seconds left. Do you think he should be there?
PAGLIARULO: I think it would be smart to say -- it would be smart for Cheney not to go. There's overwhelming negatives there. Whether they're true or not, he shouldn't go there. It would be good for McCain if he stays away.
BROWN: All right, Joe, Roland, Dana. Dana, good to have you on.
MILBANK: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: We will be seeing much, much more of you. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
BROWN: The Beijing Olympics are just around the corner. That puts a pretty unflattering spotlight on China's emerging role as a major player in world politics.
Next, the politics of pride. Also we'll talk about why critics say China is effectively forcing the U.N. to accept genocide in Africa.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Bush is on his way to Asia tonight, after visiting South Korea and Thailand. He's going to do something that a lot of people think is pretty controversial. He'll attend the opening ceremonies for the Beijing Olympics. You're going to look right now at a live picture of Eielson Air Force Base that's near Fairbanks, Alaska. And the president is there talking to the troops right now.
New CNN/Opinion Research poll shows that by a 2-1 margin, Americans think that President Bush should attend the Olympics. Now, at this moment, it is Tuesday morning in China. We can show you the Olympic torch relay, which has reached Szechuan province, devastated by an earthquake last May.
Our new poll also shows that 70 percent of Americans do believe that China is an economic threat to the U.S. Americans also say they have reservations about the Chinese because of their business dealings with Sudan's government, which is blamed for genocide in Darfur.
Senior international correspondent Nic Robertson explains.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Look around Sudan's capital, Khartoum. There's no hiding China's business interests are growing.
(on camera): China could not be more blatant thumbing its nose at international pressure to put sanctions on Sudan. This new building is a joint venture between Sudan and one of its Chinese business partners. It's just the tip of China's massive commercial interest here.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): How big? More than $10 billion invested. What impact would it have on Sudan if China were not able to invest here?
KOSTI MANIBE, MINISTER FOR INVESTMENT: It would definitely have a very devastating impact.
ROBERTSON: The reason the minister, tells me, Sudan is among Africa's top ten oil producers, and China buys more than any other country.
MANIBE: At the moment, surely it's China because it's investment in the oil industry I think is pretty large.
ROBERTSON: So large, when Sudan's president, Omar al-Bashir visits China, he gets a very warm welcome. China counts on Sudan's oil even though it only amounts to a tiny fraction of China's consumption. When China's president came to Khartoum, he got top treatment, too, not just because the impoverished African nation needs China's money, but because China is President Bashir's biggest ally in heading off sanctions over the atrocities in Darfur.
ERIC REEVES, DARFUR ADVOCACY GROUP: They have made it explicit, repeatedly, insistently clear that they will not allow sanctions.
ROBERTSON: He says China effectively forced the U.N. to accept genocide in Darfur.
REEVES: What that has meant is that we have -- the international community has, at the behest of China, conferred upon this regime of genocidaire (ph) veto power over the deployment of forces.
ROBERTSON: China says it's simply respecting Sudan's sovereignty. It's why critics are dubbing the 2008 Olympics the genocide Olympics. It's why Steven Spielberg quit as an artistic adviser for the games, too.
MIA FARROW, DARFUR ACTIVIST: We're looking to China because, quite simply, the United States doesn't have the kind of leverage we would need, I think, to stop a genocidal regime.
ROBERTSON: Tibet and China's own human rights record have proven a distraction over the suffering in Darfur. In the aid camps, they won't see the Olympics and they certainly won't feel the benefit of China's investment in Sudan.
Nic Robertson, CNN, Khartoum, Sudan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And we'll be right back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: That's all for us tonight from the ELECTION CENTER. Thanks for being with us.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
