Return to Transcripts main page
Campbell Brown
Obama, McCain Prepare For Third and Final Debate
Aired October 15, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome, everybody.
As Lou said, this is a special edition of the ELECTION CENTER, the third and final presidential debate. I'm here, along with Wolf Blitzer. Anderson Cooper is here and of course the best political team on television.
And, Wolf, as you know, the stakes couldn't be higher for John McCain tonight.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: This is really, Campbell, his last chance before a huge audience. There could be 50 million, 60 million, 70 million Americans watching this debate. And they're -- he's going to have a chance to try to do what he has been unable to do so far, really make a dent in the impressive lead that Barack Obama has in the polls. It's not going to be an easy challenge. He's got a delicate tightrope he's going to have to walk.
BROWN: And a little bit of a different format than we saw in the previous two debates.
Bob Schieffer, from CBS News, the moderator tonight, but they will be sitting with Schieffer at a table, so a little more intimate, maybe a little harder to dodge questions from the moderator when he's sitting right in front of you.
BLITZER: And I think Bob Schieffer will be able to follow up a little bit more, and press them. If they dodge the questions, if they don't answer the question, he will be able to point that out and maybe give them a second chance to answer the questions.
I know a lot of people were frustrated that didn't exactly happen in the first two presidential debates or in the vice presidential debate, for that matter, either.
BROWN: Absolutely.
BLITZER: All right.
I want to go out, Campbell, to Hempstead, New York, Long Island, Hofstra University. Our correspondent are standing by. Jessica Yellin is inside the room there in the hall there. Ed Henry is outside.
Jessica, first to you. Talk a little bit more about the format that we're getting ready to see tonight. JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is the first time that John McCain and Barack Obama will be seated next to each other during a debate. And they will be sitting in close proximity. It brings them in an intimate setting.
And the folks on the Obama campaign, David Axelrod, one of Obama's top advisers said, this was what they focused on primarily in debate prep, because, look, at this point, he knows the issues. He knows how he wants to present himself. But having -- it's a new challenge, they say. To have to see how they could attack or rebut attacks in such a close setting is a new and different thing.
So, that's been one focus of their efforts. They also are in this environment allowed to have a little more back and forth. They will have nine minutes for each question, essentially, two minutes for Obama, two minutes for McCain, and then five minutes to debate the question. So, they can really mix it up, go back and forth.
Now, Bob Schieffer, the moderator is going to help them with that back and forth. So, there could be new questions. It's not just the two men questioning each other. But it does allow for more of an exchange of ideas than we have seen in the past debates, could allow for some fireworks. But every time we predict that, we never get what we expect. So, who knows what we will see -- Wolf.
BLITZER: They're supposed to stick to domestic issues in this debate tonight. That was the original agreement; is that right, Jessica?
YELLIN: That's right. They are supposed to stick to domestic issues, which allows the economy to be the top focus of this debate, and both men clearly do want to focus on the economic issues. They think that that is the way to cut through all the noise and to sell their message to the American people.
So, we will hear a lot about their plans for taxes and to rescue this nation from the financial crisis -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, stand by, Jessica.
Ed Henry, he is over there at Hofstra University as well getting ready for the debate.
You have been speaking to a lot of McCain strategists, insiders. As we say, he's got a real, major challenge ahead of him, Ed. What are they saying to you? Does he go and make a direct assault on Barack Obama, or does he hold back and take the so-called high road?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the advisers say they want to finesse it a little bit, because they think that Bob Schieffer is likely to bring up some of these tough issues.
And, as Jessica was pointing out, this more open format, they're hoping the fireworks will fly and that it will be sort of a more direct engagement, more hand-to-hand combat, not just on personally issues, like William Ayers, but also on substantive issues, like the economy, like taxes.
Also, from a style standpoint, McCain aides say they think that having them at a table could make it more conversational. And that could be good, because they point to the Saddleback faith forum in California a couple of months back. You will remember John McCain in a conversational setting gave very crisp, direct answers, won rave reviews.
Also, they note, from a style standpoint, that John McCain, because of his war injuries, cannot lift his arms over his head. And they say that, when he was standing in that town hall format last week, he looked stilted sometimes. They say, tonight, they hope that when he's sitting down, he looks a little more statesmanlike.
And they also point out, quite frankly, as one McCain aide just told me in the last few moments, that Barack Obama, he sort of glides across the stage, the McCain aide said. He looks so calm and cool when he is standing up. And this aide said, only half-jokingly, we think if we can get Barack Obama nailed down to a chair for 90 minutes, we have a fighting chance -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And that's going to be -- really, I think they agree -- tell me if I'm wrong, Ed -- that this is really his last big chance to try to turn this thing around.
HENRY: Absolutely.
I just talked to a McCain adviser, who said, look, our internal polls show that nationally he is down about five or six points right now. That's better than, say, the CNN national poll of polls, which has John McCain down eight points. But still the point is, they're acknowledging right now their own polls show John McCain is down nationally about five or six points. His back is essentially against the wall. He has to come up big tonight -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, guys, I want everybody to stand by.
Campbell, just a couple of notes as we go back to you and to Anderson. It's going to be interesting. Right after the debate, we're going to have our instant flash poll, as they say. We have been questioning people. We will see what they think. We will come to that right after the 90-minute debate.
Also, CNN.com is the place where our viewers can get a whole lot more useful information.
BROWN: And good to be on your laptop while you're watching your television. Use all of our resources.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": As long as you're not watching the ball game.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: On your laptop?
We should tell everybody we have divided the best political team in television up a little bit tonight. At this table are the correspondents from CNN, our analysts, the nonpartisan table, if you will.
Over here, the partisan table, the ideologues, our Republicans, our Democrats, the most passionate. They are here. And we will be mixing it up.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Yes, fallen angels, exactly. We will be mixing it up a little bit with everybody.
But let me start with Dana Bash, because you have been covering the McCain campaign. You have been talking to people. They know what the polls say. They know how much is at stake tonight. What is their feeling? What is the mood going into this?
DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, they are actually quite realistic about what their chances are. They're not very good. Nobody in the McCain camp will tell you otherwise.
But the other thing that you see from John McCain right now, because it's just kind of psychologically the way he is -- we saw it on the stump. I saw it an interview I did with him this past week -- that it is at this moment when he is at -- it's most dark for him politically, that he tends to show up and tends to shine.
We will see if that happens tonight. We will see if he is going to have that fight in him sitting next to Barack Obama.
I will tell you a little bit of quick trivia. He has been on "Face the Nation," Bob Schieffer's show, 65 times, more than any other person ever. So, that is something that actually the people in his campaign are saying, that that's a good thing. He's comfortable in this format. He's comfortable not just with Bob Schieffer, but in a Sunday talk show format, which is what we will see.
BROWN: So, given the format, especially, to Gloria, have -- Gloria Borger, I should mention, as I'm introducing everybody -- what does that mean? Is it -- we have heard a lot of people say, John McCain needs to go on the attack tonight. Is it harder to do in this intimate setting?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No.
Actually, I think it's a little counterintuitive, but I think, when you're sitting around a table like this, it certainly doesn't stop us from disagreeing with each other. And I think that it's more likely, particularly in the debates that I have watched that have been around a table, that folks actually do disagree.
I go back to 2004. Remember in the New York primary, when John Kerry and John Edwards were going after each other sitting around a table in New York? I think Edwards knocked his water over, it was so bad. And I -- you know, I could see them really deciding to engage tonight.
COOPER: Is there really anything new under the sun here? I think a lot of McCain supporters are thinking, oh, he's going to go after him, he's going to go after him.
John McCain is John McCain. And we know who he is. He's not going to adapt suddenly, David Gergen, a whole new style, is he?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think he is. Last week -- or last -- the last debate, we thought he was going to go after Bill Ayers and we thought he was going to raise all these things, and he didn't. He decided for whatever reason...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Well, he says the moderator didn't bring it up.
GERGEN: Well, yes. He brought up a lot of things on his own, like the mortgage plan. He brought up on his own.
Listen, I think we talk a lot about John McCain. But I think what is really interesting tonight, this is a payoff tonight for Barack Obama for his strategic approach to a campaign. He was the guy who had a chance to debate economic issues, his strong suit, in the first debate, when -- that's what the debate commission wanted.
And he said, no, I would rather go for foreign policy. Now, why did he do that? He wanted to make domestic policy last. He wanted to make it his close-out, because, all along, his strategy has been, if people watch him over a series of events, there won't be one turning point. It will be an accumulation of impressions that will help him.
And now he's got his payoff. And I think that this is as much tonight about Barack Obama and how he's approached this is as it is about what John McCain has to do to win, because Barack Obama could possibly put it away tonight.
BROWN: Well, is that not the key to this, I guess?
Let's bring in some of our partisans.
Bill Bennett, Obama, there's certainly less pressure on him. Does he have to basically just not screw up tonight?
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, prevent, contain, I think that's right.
But I think you will see a different John McCain. A lot of us who support John McCain are hoping you will see a different John McCain.
BROWN: But what John McCain do you want to see?
(CROSSTALK) BENNETT: I want to see the fighter pilot. I want to see the fighter pilot on the mission, come home with the tank empty.
I want to see the guy who was at Saddleback. I want to see the guy who says -- remember what Fred Thompson said at the convention? Two questions I don't think you have to ask about me and the American people: Who is this man and can you trust the country to him?
There are questions about Barack Obama. Let's raise those questions, not in an impolite way, not in an ad hominem way. There are questions about his judgment, questions about his alliances, not associations, but alliances. And let's talk about his alliances in the future. Is the country ready for Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid? Is that what you want?
(CROSSTALK)
ALEX CASTELLANOS, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: I think that's a much more productive way to go for John McCain.
I take a little bit of exception with Bill here. I think if we talk about character tonight, with the argument that people don't know Barack Obama -- you know, this campaign has lasted two years. They have seen thousands of ads in battleground states. They have been in our homes now, these men, for two debates.
We do know them. We have a sense of who these men are. But I think Bill's other point is exactly dead on. So, tell us what they would do and who they would work with. And what about a Democratic majority in the Senate and House and a Democratic president to spend and tax without restraint?
There's a tremendous risk there, giving Democrats a blank check in Washington. So, tell us about that. Tell us where the country's going, not where these guys have been.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Hold on, guys.
A lot more with the panel when we come back, but I got to throw it to Wolf first -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Campbell, thanks very much.
I just want to remind our viewers, as we have been doing throughout all of these debates, we're going to be going out to Ohio. Soledad O'Brien is standing by. She's got a focus group of persuadable or undecided voters. We're going to hear from them before and after the debate, as well during the debate. You will see those squiggly lines at the bottom of your screen, what they like, what they don't like, and all of that.
We're also going to be checking with John King over at the magic map, some major changes as a result of new polling numbers coming in from some key battleground states. CNN/"TIME" magazine coming up with a new number, for example, in Virginia causing us to make a dramatic shift. We will update you on all of that.
After the debate, we will have our flash poll, what the American people liked, what they didn't like.
Remember, CNN.com is also a place where you can get a whole lot of good information.
Our coverage from this, the final presidential debate, continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody, to a special edition of ELECTION CENTER, our pre-debate coverage. Now that we are just minutes away, we have got the best political team on television, Wolf Blitzer here, along with Anderson Cooper.
And right before we were going to break, we were talking to our panel, and some of the conservatives making the case that they want to see John McCain be John McCain, a thing we have heard a lot of Republicans say I think over the last week, to come out fighting tonight.
And I want to ask Paul Begala and some of the Democrats over here, is that enough to present Barack Obama with a real challenge, if you see a different John McCain tonight?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: That's the problem, a different John McCain.
I take issue with Bill quoting Senator Thompson. You don't have to ask, who is this man? I didn't think I would have to ask at the beginning of this race, but now we do, right? He should have stayed at McCain 1.0, who was very anti-Bush, really willing to take on his party. He's had moments, but they have been very, very tepid.
And so now it's McCain who has looked erratic, unsteady. He's redefined himself every other day. And, with 20 days to go, you can't redefine yourself a third, a fourth, or a fifth time. This is what croaked Al Gore's -- people thought -- I think unfairly, but whatever -- they thought he was redefining himself every day.
And McCain is in a horrible box now because of that, because he went off into crazy base world, and nominated Sarah Palin to be his running mate. And that wasn't the McCain anybody thought was going to be running in this campaign.
(CROSSTALK)
CASTELLANOS: We should note that we just heard that John McCain was anti-Bush, this from the Democratic argument that he's Bush incarnate.
BEGALA: Eight years ago.
(CROSSTALK) CASTELLANOS: If somebody's reinvented themselves here, I would just like to point that out.
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: Let me defend myself. Eight years ago, McCain not only ran against Bush. He hated his guts, because Bush's allies smeared McCain's family, his wife, his daughter, right?
What did he do after that? He hugged him. He embraced his agenda. He voted for him 91 percent of the time. That's the McCain who is losing this election. The old McCain before eight years ago is the guy who might have had a shot.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead, Roland.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I'm also amazed by this whole notion of the first debate, they go toe to toe at podiums, it's McCain's strength. Town hall format, McCain's comfortable.
Now they're sitting down. Now he's comfortable. Can you at least try to win something? It's amazing how they keep trying to retell this whole story. You need to show up.
I think one of his failures is, he keeps saying, I'm a leader, I'm a leader, not the other guy.
The other guy has shown a better job of being a leader. You haven't. You failed when you suspended your campaign, this whole bailout deal. And, so, you can't talk the talk of being a leader. You have to walk the walk. He has failed that.
And I think that's why more people are getting comfortable seeing Obama operating, acting more presidential than John McCain, who looks like he has no clue what he's doing.
COOPER: I want to ask Bill about the fighter pilot idea, that that's the McCain you want to see.
If he comes out as a fighter pilot, doesn't then Barack Obama just come out as the guy who's actually piloting the ship, I mean, as the commander of the ship?
MARTIN: The one who sent him out.
BENNETT: Well, it all depends how he comes out. His life has been a life of leadership. He's shown by his example of his life that he's a leader. Whether he's presidential, whether he will be the next president is another question.
No, I think it turns, a lot turns on what happens tonight. And tonight could be a very different night. It may not be. And I will agree with you. I had hoped for more in the first two debates, but I still hope for more in this debate. MARTIN: But, Bill, you said his life as a leader.
BENNETT: Yes, sure.
MARTIN: We haven't watched his life. The American people are judging these two based upon how they run a campaign. He has switched staffs.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: No, no, no, Bill, here's the measure in terms of what we are looking at. All we have seen from Obama and McCain is how they run their campaign, what their messages have been. And, so, we're judging based upon that. He has not run a better campaign than Obama.
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: That's just not true.
(CROSSTALK)
BENNETT: It's much deeper than campaigns. People who know John McCain...
(CROSSTALK)
AMY HOLMES, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Al Gore fired his folks. He moved his campaign to Tennessee. We have seen this before.
But I think what we're all doing is, we're talking about John McCain, and it's that John McCain has the task tonight, not Barack Obama. And what we have seen for John McCain, at least among conservatives, is this frustration that Republicans have sent a moderate in to do a conservative's job.
And I think that what McCain has to do is not attack who Barack Obama is, but what Barack Obama wants to do.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Donna, is there a danger for Barack Obama, though, that he just is kicking back too much, that he just tries to...
(CROSSTALK)
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, who says he's kicking back? Over the last six weeks, Barack Obama and Joe Biden have visited more states and more cities than John McCain.
COOPER: I mean in a debate format, that he just sort of sits back. Does he need to do something? Does he need to prove something tonight?
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: No, look, Barack Obama understands that the voters out there, they have one eye on the presidential race and one eye on their wallet.
He understands, at this crucial moment in the debate, he must answer some of the fundamental questions that are concerning voters. Who can I trust to manage the economy? Who can I trust in the White House to revive this great country?
So, tonight, I think Barack Obama will answer those questions and come out ahead, not by attacking John McCain, but attacking the problems that people feel are most important right now.
COOPER: Do you agree with that, Paul?
BEGALA: Yes.
The closing days of Clinton's election against Bush, we were ahead. Clinton was starting to coast. And an old friend of his, Eddie Sutton, an old basketball coach, called and left a phone message and said this: "Governor, you're up three points with three minutes left. Press. Don't stall."
CASTELLANOS: That's right.
BEGALA: Right? Barack Obama needs to press, not stall.
He is an old basketball player himself, and a darn good one, if the stories are true, right? He needs to press, not stall. If he looks like he's coasting tonight, Anderson, it's bad for him. He needs to be pressing his advantage all the way to the end. They're not going to give this thing away to Barack Obama, believe me.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Do you guys agree with that?
And, Jeffrey, go ahead.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: I think McCain needs to do two things tonight. One is, he needs to improve the economy and he needs to make President Bush more popular. Then, in that case, he will win.
But, I mean, he can't do any of those things.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: He can spend the rest of the 90 minutes any way he likes.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: The point I'm making is that the structural problem McCain has is so much bigger than anything he can say in this debate, that that's why he's losing. He's not losing because he wasn't presidential enough, or because he didn't sit the right way. He's losing because it's a terrible year for Republicans.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, there may be more to it than that, I think, from what we're hearing around the room. But hold on.
I want to get to Wolf for a second. We will come back to the panel in a moment -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Campbell, thanks very much.
And it was a day that we saw the markets once again collapsing, significantly, 730 points on the Dow Jones today, setting the stage for tonight's debate, not necessarily good economic news to help John McCain.
And, even as we speak right now, the markets in Asia have just opened up, and those numbers are going down right now as well, rather dramatically.
We will update you on all of this when our coverage continues. We're here at the CNN ELECTION CENTER, where we're watching the third and final presidential debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It's been 44 years since Virginia voted for a Democratic presidential candidate.
Look at this. Our brand-new CNN/Opinion Research Corporation poll, right now -- CNN/"TIME"/Opinion Research Corporation poll has Barack Obama at 53 percent, John McCain at 43 percent. That's a pretty stunning development, given the historic trends of Virginia over the years.
Let's take a look at some other states and new numbers that have come in today from CNN/"TIME"/Opinion Research Corporation. In Florida, a key battleground state, right now, this poll shows Barack Obama at 51 percent, John McCain 46 percent, Florida a key battleground state.
Let's move over to Colorado right now, once again, Barack Obama ahead, slightly, 51 percent to 47 percent, in Colorado. In Missouri, it's neck and neck, McCain 49 percent, Obama 48 percent, in an important state. In Georgia, McCain is doing better, 53 percent, 45 percent, although certainly not as well as George Bush did against John Kerry only four years ago.
Let's talk about Virginia, because this is really significant.
John King is over here at the magic map.
As a result of this 10-point spread that Obama now has over McCain in Virginia, we have changed our Electoral College map.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We have, Wolf.
And, as you noted, not since 1964 has the Commonwealth of Virginia right here gone blue, gone Democratic, but we have turned it light blue, meaning leaning Obama. The significance of that is, by shifting those 13 electoral votes over to Barack Obama, it now puts him over the top, 277. It takes 270 to win.
So, based on our projection today -- and we will emphasize that again and again, today, still a big debate tonight and more time to come -- but look at this. McCain enters the final 19, 20 days of this campaign significantly behind when you do the math.
Let me give you one demonstration, Wolf. The six states left, the gold states, are our tossup states, all carried by George W. Bush four years ago, some big battleground states. Let's say, hypothetically, John McCain wins them all, Florida, 27 electoral votes, North Carolina, 15 there, a big battleground out here, 20, in Ohio.
Missouri -- I spent most of the week in Missouri -- that's 11 electoral votes there. Our here to Colorado, give him nine. Again, Barack Obama is leading in some of these states, but, hypothetically, we're going to give all the tossup states left to John McCain. He still loses the election.
So, he has a huge challenge heading into this debate and the final few weeks. He has to take something on this map that is blue and turn it red. The easiest way, of course, would be to get Virginia back in his column. If he just makes it a tossup, he would bring the race back into play. And if he could switch that state, McCain would win, not Obama.
But it is such a significant challenge, as you look at the map as we have it tonight entering this debate. There is no state in the gold, a tossup state, that John Kerry won. Barack Obama is ahead and leading in all of the traditionally Democratic states, and making inroads now in places like Virginia that have traditionally been Republican. The map is tilting in his favor.
And, Wolf, in the state of Virginia, quickly, in closing, if you go back and look at this in 2004, right up here, we live in this area. This is where we call home. We live across in Washington, D.C. You're up in Maryland. But right in here, in Northern Virginia, we're the population group. We make politics complicated sometimes. It's about math.
More people are moving into this part of Northern Virginia, Barack Obama almost up 60-40 up here and also up ahead down here in the southeast coast, where you have an African-American population in Hampton Roads and Norfolk, but also military communities in here and a lot of retirees -- Barack Obama opening a huge lead down there.
This state, a state that it's hard to get John McCain to 270 without the state of Virginia, and it is trending in a big way toward Barack Obama.
BLITZER: And the Democrats in Virginia have been really hopeful, because there is now a Democratic governor in Virginia. There's a Democratic senator, Jim Webb, in Virginia. And there's a second Democrat who's poised to be the other senator from Virginia. So, they're saying, you know what? This is not the old Virginia. This is a new Virginia.
KING: It has been trending -- demographically and politically, Virginia has been trending toward the Democrats, two in a row in the Democratic governors.
And the problem for the Republicans is, as a state like Virginia trends towards the Democrats, where on the map are the Republicans taking a state that has gone blue in the past and turning it red? Wisconsin and Minnesota have been targets, but the Republicans have been unable to do to the map what the Democrats are doing, which is changing it.
BLITZER: All right, John, stand by.
We're going to continue our coverage. We're only about a half- an-hour or so away from the start of this, the third and final presidential debate.
You're looking at live pictures. That's the room over Hofstra University, Hempstead, New York, out on Long Island. We're going to go there live, and continue our coverage from the CNN ELECTION CENTER -- right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Even while we're looking at the room at Hofstra University, that's where the third and final presidential debate is about to begin less than a half hour from now.
We're watching what's happening right now in the markets. In Asia, the markets have already reopened, and the Nikkei -- the Nikkei is down already nine percent. This on a day when the New York Stock Exchange had a horrible day as well.
The Dow Jones industrials down 730 points. That's the second biggest point drop ever and, Campbell Brown, it certainly -- it certainly sets the stage for the economic discussion that's going to take place today.
I want to welcome our viewers in the United States and around the world. They're watching us right now. I think it's fair to say, Anderson and Campbell, that the whole world is watching to see what's going on because the whole world's markets right now are in trouble.
BROWN: And that's going to be the primary focus of tonight's debate, it is domestic issues and you can pretty much bet they're going to spend almost all of tonight on the economy.
But this plays off nicely the point that you, Jeff Toobin, were making, right, before we went to the break. You said it almost doesn't matter what John McCain does because so many things are working against him, one of them being the economy. But I saw a number of people here shaking their heads and saying no, it's not just about the economy. David?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think it is about the economy but it depends on what he does with it. And he did present an economic plan yesterday, which was a step forward, at least he did it before the debate instead of the end of the debate.
BROWN: John McCain.
GERGEN: Yes, John McCain. You know, so last time he came up with this proposal that nobody understood and within two days was the subject of ridicule by a lot of economists. So this time, he did lay the groundwork for it.
But I want to go back to it because he's got an opening that he has not used and it was something Bill Bennett and Alex Castellanos raised earlier. And that is in the Congress, Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats now are saying that right after the election, they want to take the stimulus package that's been listed as $150 billion and take it up to $300 billion.
Now, is Barack Obama going to go along with that? That adds a lot to the deficit. Is that a smart thing to do? It seems to me those are the kind of questions that I think both Bill and Alex were right about that. That's the opening he has.
Not about Bill Ayers. I mean, nobody cares about Bill Ayers. What they care about is what this market is -- what's happening in this market and what's happening to the U.S. federal budget deficits.
BROWN: Candy, you've been covering the Obama campaign. We've been talking all tonight primarily about John McCain. How confident is Obama feeling going into this?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Look, they're feeling pretty confident because they -- his advisers believe that those first two debates he met that threshold and then some. Because people have to be able to look at the TV screen and say, oh, I can see him as president. I can imagine Barack Obama in the Oval Office. So that was a leap for them, you know, and they feel that once he did that.
I will say for John McCain, that there's also something there. It is possible to get under Barack Obama's skin. I think we saw Hillary Clinton do that. I mean, he needs not just to put in a good performance, but there are ways to kind of get at him that he's been unable to do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
CROWLEY: But Barack Obama has not -- yes, you know, he's really got this down to a science.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead, Dana. DANA BASH, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think it's very interesting that you said that because I was talking to one of McCain's advisers who has been working with him on debate prep. And they said that they're working on exactly that, Candy, that he needs to not just sort of go ahead and give his talking points but listen to what Obama is saying and react to Obama.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: (INAUDIBLE) without looking at Obama.
(LAUGHTER)
BASH: Regardless of where he looks, but the idea that that's the way to get a moment. We've all been talking about the fact that we haven't had a moment in these debates. That's one way to do it. Another thing that he could do is get under his skin.
BROWN: One point that they are both making, those moments where Hillary Clinton did seem to get under Barack Obama's skin did happen in debates previously. How do you --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very, very rare.
BROWN: Well, very rare, but, Bill Bennett, how would you try to create one of those moments?
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I would start by looking right at him and asking him some tough questions about his alliances in the past and the future and just how much are you going to spend, and how much are you going to tax and, you know, what are you going to do to keep this economy from going in the tank? What spending programs will you eliminate?
But I think it's fair to say, and Jeff remarked on it and others, this race was pretty close until this economic -- economy thing happened. I mean, it's just a 10,000-pound weight. The question is why is -- you know, in some ways, why is John McCain still standing?
It was my boss, my mentor, Ronald Reagan, who said, you know, are you better off than you were four years ago? You look at the economy, it doesn't look so good. You look for your metaphors. You know, what's the right metaphors?
In sports we say, you know, put him away while you can. He hasn't put him away yet. I know they're feeling pretty confident, but he hasn't been put away yet. This guy has a way of kind of keep staying afloat, John McCain. He stays alive, he's a fighter. He likes to prevail.
So we shall see. But, you know, the odds are very tough. The circumstances are very tough. He's got to go back to what I was saying, the Navy flyer. He's got to try to go under his skin. He's got to confront him. He's got to look him in the eye and say, just why should we give you the reins in this country.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: To Alex and Bill's earlier point in which David also mentioned, I mean, how does Barack Obama, one of the face that the criticism that he really hasn't challenged members of his own party. And so if he is confronted with the idea of well, are we giving a blank check to Democrats? They have the House and the Senate and a Democrat in the White House. Does he need to criticize Democrats?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first, he needs to fall back on the reality which is, the parties are not viewed equally among Americans today. The "New York Times" poll today says the Democrat Party has a 52 percent approval rating. The Republican Party, a 37 percent approval rating. I can't remember the gap being that high.
And then, I would take it off of personalities and ideology and just say, if what you're saying is we will get right to work to jumpstart this economy, unlike Senator McCain who admitted he doesn't know anything about the economy, we'll get right to work on "jobs, baby, jobs" as Hillary Clinton said the other day. We will get right to work to create green jobs. We'll get right to work to get us off of this foreign oil.
Just go to what the Democratic agenda is. It will be fine. They don't like the label, Democrats.
COOPER: But, in fact, that spending label, is that fair? I mean, the Republicans, I mean, have created a bigger government than we ever had before.
ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, then, the argument can be, hey, you think it's bad now. It can get worse.
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: I don't think so.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: They have not just spent money, they have also borrowed without thinking about the future. That's what makes this so hard on the Republicans.
AMY HOLMES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: And that's exactly what John McCain needs to go after Barack Obama about -- about his own spending plan, a trillion dollars in government spending and he claims that he's not going to --
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: And then we'll go back to the tax cuts and (INAUDIBLE) economics.
HOLMES: But we also have to look at those tax cuts. Obama says 95 percent tax. Ninety-five percent of Americans will get a tax cut? Well, 40 percent of Americans don't even pay federal income taxes.
What conservatives want to see John McCain do tonight is articulate his plan, reach out to middle class voters, all those swing voters and independents and say this is what I'm going to do for you, and they want him to unmask Barack Obama and say he talks a good game, but this is what he really has in store.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: But his problem, Amy, is not conservative. His problem is the fact that he cannot get independent voters. He can't get those folks in the middle. That's the problem.
Look, he's got conservatives. They're not going to vote for Barack Obama. He has to deal with the people who are in the unsure category and that's where he has failed because he got away from the John McCain brain.
BROWN: All right. Hold it right there. We want to throw it to Wolf for a second. We will have plenty more time. Well, actually, not that much more. It's about 20 more minutes to the start of the debate, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Campbell, thanks very much.
And we're going to go back out to Ohio very soon and check in with Soledad O'Brien. She's got a focus group of persuadable voters -- Democrats, Republicans, independents -- but they're saying they're still undecided. We'll check in with them.
And even as we check in with them, the markets in Asia which are now reopened, the Nikkei index now down 10 percent -- 10 percent only within the past few minutes that the markets in Asia have reopened. We're watching this -- this on a horrible day as far as the markets are concerned here in the United States as well. And this sets the stage for tonight's third and final presidential debate.
Our coverage from the CNN ELECTION CENTER continues right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody, for our coverage of the third and final presidential debate scheduled to begin in just about 15 minutes. We're here with our panel, the best political team on television.
And guys, we haven't talked much. There's been a lot of debate internally within the McCain campaign about whether or not he would raise the issue of Bill Ayers, which is something that's been talked about a lot on the campaign trail. Whether that would benefit him to raise it, whether that would be a mistake to even bring it up, or Reverend Wright at this stage, whether those sort of attacks are working. A lot of people believe they weren't, Gloria.
BORGER: Well, the polls show that they certainly weren't. I don't think you're going to see him downing those more about this than anyone. I don't think you're going to see him raise it, but he's certainly ready to respond to a question about it.
And Obama was goading him today although they say they're not but they are, goading him to bring it up, say it to my face, John McCain. And so, they clearly have an answer ready for it which is the American people don't want to talk about it. They want to talk about the economy.
BROWN: What are they hoping? Are they hoping that Bob Schieffer brings it up and neither of them has to?
BASH: I mean, that's what they're -- that's what they think is probably going to happen. I just spoke to a couple of McCain's aides before coming on and they said that right now the plan, and I emphasize the plan, because as we've talked about before, you never really know what McCain is going to execute what his aides have discussed beforehand. But the plan was for him not to bring it up on his own. That he expects possibly to get asked by Bob Schieffer or possibly for Barack Obama somehow either, you know, explicitly or maybe even kind on the sly, bring it up in a way that forces McCain to talk about it, for the reason that you just said, because they think in the Obama campaign, Candy, I'm sure you know this more than anybody that they -- that it hurts McCain.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: A question about Bill Ayers, if they raise it, so what? So what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
TOOBIN: I mean, what is it going to accomplish? Do you think anyone out there is going to change their vote because of a mention of Bill Ayers? It just seems like this phony issue that has been -- there's more of a press interest than public interest.
CROWLEY: It's probably less of a phony issue than a passe issue. This might have had some resonance had he done it early on, and he had a whole, you know, springtime to begin to, you know, chip away. The problem is, that the economy just came down on him.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Over here, you have a lot of people say this is not a phony issue.
Bill Bennett?
BENNETT: People may not care, or may not care enough, but it's not a phony issue. As a lot of people, conservatives have said, if John McCain had started his career at the house of someone who bombed an abortion clinic, you would be hearing a lot about it.
Sarah Palin was attacked for calling Bill Ayers a terrorist. What the hell is he? An amateur physicist?
MARTIN: No. She was pretty (INAUDIBLE) he was palling around with Bill Ayers.
BENNETT: Well, he was palling around with terrorist.
(CROSSTALK)
Bill Ayers -- let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. Let me finish. BROWN: Roland, let him finish his point.
BENNETT: He's palling around with him on the same board, 100 percent agreement with him on the grants that he gave out. I had two callers, Democrats, to my radio show say they were changing their vote because they just saw a Chicago magazine 2001, Bill Ayers standing on the American flag while he was a partner with Barack Obama on the Woods Foundation and the Annenberg Foundation.
MARTIN: Who funded him?
BENNETT: The Annenberg Foundation.
MARTIN: A conservative Republican.
BENNETT: Not a first-time Republican for Ford-Rockefeller.
MARTIN: No, no, no, no.
But you don't say anything about one of your own. Don't just trash it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're not the real Republicans
BRAZILE: Every minute spent attacking Bill Ayers or attacking Obama is a minute that John McCain cannot talk about important issues. Two-thirds of American people have heard about Bill Ayers, and they don't believe that Bill Ayers has anything to do with that.
BENNETT: I know that. I think it's a question of honor. I want to be sure he is not the next secretary of education of the United States.
BRAZILE: Oh, Bill, rest assured, Bill, that he will not.
Oh, come on, Bill.
BENNETT: Let's wait and see.
COOPER: Paul?
BEGALA: Actually, it's mostly been, should McCain go after him on issues, typically ideological issues like taxes, got to talk about spending, Nancy Pelosi, or character issues as Bill mentioned? I would do something completely different.
If I worked for John McCain, I would say you are at your best, sir, when you call us to a cause larger than yourself. We backed together that heroic biography, the suffering that you endured in Vietnam and then use an "S" word for the American people, sacrifice. Tell them, you know what? I'm not going to be able to deliver all those tax cuts I promised. And if you don't like that, go to Walter Reed and go see those young men and some women who are shedding blood for our country, the way that John McCain suffered for our country. He's got to do something big.
BROWN: But, Paul --
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: He calls us to a cause larger than ourselves.
BROWN: Paul, in fairness -- hold on, let me just ask Paul, because Barack Obama has not answered that question either, the question of sacrifice...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
BROWN: ... what he intends to give up. He's been asked, so he doesn't have to. That's a fair point. He hasn't addressed it.
HOLMES: He was asked, and he said the first thing he
BROWN: He's been asked four times.
HOLMES: He said the first thing he would sacrifice is energy policy. When he said that, I was shocked. He said, well, I have to look around at my energy policy.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's not what he said. He's famous for his sacrifice.
HOLMES: In terms of spending plans, he said.
CASTELLANOS: This is the strangest election ever. I do find myself agreeing with Paul Begala, who knew?
You know, when you ask why is Barack Obama running for president? He's going to answer it like that, change. Why is John McCain running for president?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Country first, experience.
CASTELLANOS: He can't -- well, he hasn't quite make that.
Tonight, he can do that and he's got a good story to tell. And it is part of his story. He is the underdog. He can come back.
BROWN: But if you had to say it in a word -- if you had to say it in a word, change, what's John McCain's word, Alex?
CASTELLANOS: Change. It will be change Washington. If we sacrifice and change Washington, we can achieve anything in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: He has to go back to being a reformer.
CASTELLANOS: And Barack Obama is going to put Washington's economy --
(CROSSTALK)
BRAZILE: Reform and reform and reform.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Or earmarks.
COOPER: We have so many people out here, this is now like the best political horde in television.
(LAUGHTER)
It's quite to marshal (ph). It's going to shut this bad boy down, I think.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I didn't know where you were going with that.
COOPER: Don't worry. I watch in a hurry.
BROWN: All right. Let's take a pause and let everybody calm down for a minute and go to Wolf.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: Let's go out in fact, over to Columbus, Ohio, where Soledad O'Brien once again is all ready with a special focus group.
Soledad, explain to our viewers exactly what's going on where you are. This is the fourth time you're doing it. Two previous presidential debates, one vice presidential debate, and it's going to set the stage for some squiggly numbers at the bottom of the screen. Go ahead and explain.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, which everyone will be watching, of course, with great fascination. We've invited a panel to come, and we will be monitoring their reactions while the debate goes on. Thirty people here tonight. Seven are registered Republicans, 12 are registered Democrats, 11 are registered independents.
And you're exactly right. We'll be taking a look at this perception analyzer, and literally, second by second, we can monitor, Wolf, as they turn to the left or turn to the right, how interested, how excited, how much they're connecting with what each candidate has to say, and that is exactly going to translate to the squiggly lines that you will see on your screens while you're watching the debate. That will be the reactions of our 30 folks, what resonates with them and what does not resonate.
But you know, Wolf, in pre-polling here, one of the things that was very clear as it is across the United States, is the economy is just a huge issue for the folks in this room. Certainly, a big deal with the number of manufacturing jobs that have been lost here in the state of Ohio. I'd like to see a show of hands. Realistically, how many people here are concerned that you could lose your homes in the next year? I mean, how many people are genuinely worried about that?
OK, we've got a show of hands here. How about your jobs? I mean, how many people are genuinely worried about their job maybe leaving town? More hands on that issue.
I mean, those are -- those are the kind of issues that are affecting people not only here in Ohio but across the country. And so, many people want to hear about the economy. It will be very interesting to watch these dial meters as the candidates talk about the issues. And also what happens as they talk about some negative things. We see that go down.
So I'm going to introduce to you a couple of folks. Mark Newland (ph) is a registered Republican. What do you need to hear tonight, Mark? What are you listening for? Hold your mike up a little higher.
MARK NEWLAND, OHIO FOCUS GROUP: OK. I want to hear what each candidate's plan is for their first 100 days. Things are bad right now. Everybody knows that. What are their -- what's their plan to get us out of this fix?
O'BRIEN: Real specifics.
Colleen Justice is a registered independent.
Colleen, three weeks away from the election and you're still undecided. What's going to make the difference for you?
COLLEEN JUSTICE, OHIO FOCUS GROUP: I want to know what these candidates will do to restore respectability to our national and to the office of the presidency.
O'BRIEN: And Jessica Jackson, registered independent, way up here.
Jessica, what are you listening for tonight? What do you want to know?
JESSICA JACKSON, OHIO FOCUS GROUP: For me, education and also job market opportunities are very relevant to me as a young voter and as a college student. So I'm just waiting to see what the candidates have to say about that, because I'm really concerned about what's going to look for me as far as support in school financially and also will there be a job for me once I graduate from school.
O'BRIEN: So concerns for young people.
Mark, I'm going to come back to you for a second. One thing that we have seen in the dial testers is during the debate, when people go negative, the dial testers go down right away. People do not like it.
But what about the campaigning over the last couple of weeks which has been negative, and I think increasingly so? Has that bothered you? How do you feel about that?
NEWLAND: It's a given fact. I mean, everybody expects it and -- but nobody likes it. It's just the way it is.
O'BRIEN: They're kind of used to it now.
NEWLAND: Unfortunately.
O'BRIEN: It will be interesting --
Thanks, Mark. Appreciate it.
O'BRIEN: It'd be interesting to see again, if people go negative during this debate what our dial testers do tonight, Wolf. We'll certainly watching for that.
BLITZER: And, Soledad, very briefly, all of those folks with you, they may be registered Democrats, maybe registered Republicans or independents, but they say they're persuadable. They're still not -- they still haven't made up their mind who they're going to support. Is that right?
O'BRIEN: That is exactly right. Every single person in this room has said that they are absolutely undecided so far. They have not made up their minds who they're going to vote for with the election just three weeks away.
BLITZER: All right. I'm going to explain, Soledad, to our viewers what the screen is going to look like during the course of the 90-minute debate. At the bottom of the screen, you're going to see two lines, a green line and sort of an orange, orange line. The green representing the men in that room with Soledad. The other line representing the women. And it's going to be moving second by second as the candidates say something.
If the line goes up towards the plus sign, that means they like what they're seeing. If the line goes down towards the minus sign, that means they don't like what they're hearing and seeing.
You're seeing Mitt Romney out there right now. He's already there, the former Republican presidential candidate. That's all the viewers will see that line, those trends at the bottom of the screen.
For those of you who are lucky enough to be able to catch the CNN ELECTION CENTER and our coverage in high definition, you'll also see on the side panels our analysts' scorecards with David Gergen and John King, for example, Roland Martin and Paul Begala, Bill Bennett, Alex Castellanos, how they are -- how they are seeing what's going on though.
When they see an opportunity that the candidate has taken advantage of, that's a plus. When they see an opportunity missed, that's a minus.
By the way, you can see those scorecards online as well at CNN.com. So it's a good opportunity to not only watch and listen to the debate, but also get a little flavor of what some other folks think about what's going on as well.
It's a unique feature we have here, Campbell, Anderson, and I think it will convince a lot of people this is the place they should be watching that debate.
BROWN: I'm sold, Wolf. We'll be watching there.
You were pointing out people in the audience and we're looking at the pictures. We should also mention Hillary Clinton, who, of course, is there. And there's an interesting report today that Senator McCain actually called Hillary Clinton for advice, which I don't think she was all that thrilled about or a little cold to deliver. But do you think that her presence matters at all? Do you think we'll hear a shout-out from either of these guys, Candy, to Hillary Clinton being there?
CROWLEY: Maybe, but I think her non-presence would have said something more than her presence. She's the senator from New York. We would expect her to be there.
BROWN: Are the Clintons onboard now? I mean, there was all this talk about taking their temperature early on.
Are they really onboard? Are they really excited about Barack Obama?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
BROWN: Are they there?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
COOPER: Donna Brazile yells out yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I think it is clear that Hillary Clinton has done absolutely everything she can for Barack Obama. I mean, Hillary Clinton has been a soldier.
Bill Clinton, I think, is a more complicated question. I don't think he has unambiguous feelings about Barack Obama, but Hillary Clinton in her characteristic way has worked hard, gone everywhere she could and I think has done the ticket a lot of good.
GERGEN: But more important -- it'd be more important is the Clinton voters are now onboard and that is really what has helped to change this. And I think that's partly the economic thing. I think it's partly Sarah Palin. And it's partly the way these two guys have run the campaign.
Bill Bennett had been arguing this is all about the economy on McCain's box stand. It's not just about the economy. It's the way that two people have responded to it as candidates. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
GERGEN: And that is I thought, on Obama's part, has brought in a lot of the Clinton voters.
BORGER: And Obama has brought in the Clinton team -- the Clinton economic team. I mean, remember when he met with his economic advisers? They were all very familiar faces.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Some are Clinton people.
BROWN: Yes, go ahead, John.
KING: There's something we haven't mentioned here that has never happened in the lifetime of anybody in this room, I don't think. That is that the Democratic candidate has a boatload of dimes and the Republican candidate has a much smaller limit of resources.
And when you are traveling in these states, you see six or seven or eight Obama ads to every McCain ad. And you see one or two Obama ads where he's very nice on camera. I have a plan, I'm going to help you.
There's a new ad he's showing in these white rural areas reminding them that his grandfather was a white man who served in the United States Army, in George Patton's Army, took him to a parade to see the astronauts after we landed on the moon. And then there are other ads that essentially say John McCain is George Bush's older brother. And they hammer McCain and they hammer him and hammer him and velcro him to Bush like you cannot do.
It is the benefit of resources. That matters in American politics when you can kill the other guy on television.
BROWN: Donna Brazile, is that -- is that what brought Hillary Clinton voters home? Is it resources? Is it Sarah Palin? Is it the economic message? What do you think it was?
BRAZILE: I think it's all of the above, plus the fact that Hillary Clinton is very excited about this ticket. She is campaigning across the country. She is encouraging her voters to go out there, knock on doors. And there are t-shirts now that say "Hillary sent me." My dad got one the other day and I don't know if he's knocking on doors. But it's still early for Halloween for him.
(LAUGHTER)
But people are excited about this race, and I can't tell you, Bill Clinton on the road the other day. He went to Virginia. And I got a call from one of the congressmen. He said, "Bill Clinton was just in his element." So this is a good ticket, and it's good for the Democrats.
MARTIN: And for the first time didn't (INAUDIBLE) discipline. I mean, typically, the Democratic candidate has been all over the place. The Republicans were always on message. They were always on point, had their stuff together, and the Democrats are benefiting from that because they have a top-down philosophy that helps them.
BENNETT: There's a lot on the line against John McCain. Still, he moves. He lifts. It's not over. I know it says 277, but the people haven't spoken.
CASTELLANOS: And it may not be one word, but he does have two words "change Washington." And that's what got him going with Sarah Palin when he picked Palin and said, look, sometimes Washington is not going to fix itself. Sometimes we Americans have to go do that.
He can recapture that tonight. He's got a good case to make this.
COOPER: Alex, it took you about 10 minutes to come up with that, though.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Guys -- guys --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: It's hard to change Washington when you've been there longer than the Lincoln Memorial, you know.
BROWN: All right. Showtime, everybody.
(LAUGHTER)
Showtime. A quick pause and we're going to throw it to Wolf, everybody.
