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Campbell Brown
Defense Secretary to Stay; Obama Taking Charge?
Aired November 25, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening.
We start quickly tonight with breaking news. A critically important spot in Barack Obama's Cabinet apparently will be filled by the man who's already in that chair. Defense Secretary Robert Gates will stay at the Pentagon. This is big news in a time of war, with troops in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Several officials close to the Obama transition team tell CNN tonight that Gates is expected to remain there for at least the first year of the Obama administration. President Bush chose Gates to replace Donald Rumsfeld as defense secretary two years ago at a low point in the U.S. war in Iraq.
Since then, conditions in Iraq, of course, have dramatically improved. U.S. casualties have dropped substantially, but this has been the big debate ever since the election, political watchers wondering about it.
And our Ed Henry has been standing by up in Chicago with the transition team, following all these developments.
Ed, what are your sources there telling you about how this decision was made?
ED HENRY, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Tom, very senior advisers to the president-elect say, for a long time, he has been very intrigued about having at least some bipartisanship in his Cabinet. And he has a lot of respect for Secretary Gates and they have developed a little bit of chemistry, they say, in their private conversations.
They also say another very big factor here is the financial crisis. Don't dismiss that, that that has really scrambled things, and that has obviously become issue number one. And with two wars going on, on the national security front as you mentioned in Iraq and Afghanistan, the last thing the president-elect wants right now according to his senior aides is to have all this upheaval at the Pentagon.
He wants some continuity. So, he thinks the best thing to do is for at least a year keep Secretary Gates on board at the Pentagon, bring in powerhouse like Hillary Clinton as secretary of state. And we're also hearing the leading choice still for national security adviser inside the White House is another commanding presence, the retired Marine General Jim Jones. So, if you put that whole team together, he thinks that they would be the best team for national security, while he is focusing a bit more time on economic security. And we are told that these announcements could be official as early as next week, Tom.
FOREMAN: So, we try to keep the war stable while the economy pitches about, but, obviously, the anti-war folks who supported Obama very strongly are going to be pretty unhappy about this. What will this actually do as far as you hear from your sources to Obama's plans for getting troops out?
HENRY: There's a lot of concern on the left, not just that President Bush's defense secretary is now staying on, but Hillary Clinton is someone who voted for the war in Iraq. That was a big issue until the primaries, obviously, going to be secretary of state. And then General Jones, obviously a hawk as well, as a retired Marine general.
So, what I'm hearing, though, is that while these liberal activists are saying does this mean a shift in Barack Obama's policy of saying -- his campaign promise of 16 months and then all U.S. combat troops out of Iraq, a very senior Obama aide insisted to me that his policy has not changed and that no matter who's in the Cabinet, the policy ultimately is going to be set by the commander in chief.
And they say there may be a lot of noise on the left, but in the end Barack Obama's position on the war has not changed and will not change. This senior aide saying he's sticking to the notion of all U.S. combat troops out of Iraq in 16 months -- Tom.
FOREMAN: All right. Ed Henry in Chicago, many thanks.
Tonight's breaking news that Defense Secretary Robert Gates is staying on makes the Obama Cabinet look more and more like a political all-star team.
Let's take a look at what we know so far or at least what we think we know tonight. Senator Hillary Clinton is said to be on track to be nominated as secretary of state. New York Federal Reserve President Tim Geithner has been announced as the nominee for the treasury secretary. Eric Holder is expected to be nominated for attorney general.
New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson appears to be headed to the Commerce Department. And sources, including none other than John McCain today, said Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano will be the secretary of homeland security.
So, we know a good deal more now about the team that Obama is putting together.
And to deal with the enormous challenges that lie ahead, we're going to turn to one of our panels here. We're joined by three top- notch political pros to talk it all over about Secretary Gates and the rest of the team here, "New York Daily News" columnist Errol Louis, also a morning host at WWRL Radio in New York, Michael Crowley, senior editor of "The New Republic," and Bay Buchanan, CNN political contributor and a Republican strategist, joining us as well.
Guys, let me ask you right up on the top here, the promise from the beginning, Michael, was that he was going to have this Cabinet of adversaries, people who would challenge him, people who would raise him in his own arguments for his causes.
When you look at this lineup, is he getting it?
MICHAEL CROWLEY, SENIOR EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": Well, the team of rivals theory, right, that's what it is. And I think you are getting that clearly. Hillary Clinton tells you the whole story.
I mean, it is amazing to me that these bitter primary rivals may be serving together. I'm actually amazed at how tolerant so many Obama supporters are of the idea that Hillary is going to have this senior post.
But another key campaign promise to his campaign that you heard over and over was building bridges, bipartisanship, being willing to meet Republicans on areas of common ground. And I think in part as well as continuity on national security and foreign policy, that's the signal that the Gates pick is sending, to say, I'm willing to work with Republicans, Republicans with whom I have commonality.
Obama and Gates share the idea that you might want to deal more with Iran, for instance. There are places where they can meet. And I think that's important to him. It was important to him to send that signal somewhere in his Cabinet selections. There's a Republican in now.
FOREMAN: Bay, let me ask you about this. There's a difference, though, between Hillary Clinton, who is an opposing Democrat, and a lot of Republicans, who might really oppose him. What signal does the Gates choice make?
BAY BUCHANAN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you know, first of all, I think Republicans are first Americans. And I think Gates makes really good sense, because we are in a time of war. We do want that continuity. We want a message sent to our enemy that is the transfer of power from the Bush administration to the Obama administration isn't going to change anything.
We have got some really top-notch people who are watching over things and it will be a very smooth, and they should expect that, not to think that this isn't going to be a man ready to act if he need be, and that being President Obama.
So, I think it is good. I think the fact that Gates himself is a solid fellow, very, very strong, wonderful appointment in my opinion.
FOREMAN: Same question to you, Errol. What about Gates and what about the panoply of people here?
ERROL LOUIS, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": Well, the Gates appointment in particular, I think you have got to keep in mind that there are some very practical tasks above and beyond fighting those wars. There are weapon systems and a strategic doctrine that has to be revamped for the 21st century.
That's what Rumsfeld was really supposed to be doing at the same time as he was fighting two wars. The whole thing got away from him. Gates as a manager I think has got to not only withdraw the troops, but also start taking steps toward downsizing, removing some of these unneeded weapons systems, coming up with a new counterinsurgency doctrine, a new overall defense doctrine for the United States.
I think the Cabinet as a whole, I think it shows a great blend. It's ethnically diverse and it's got regional sort of diversity. And, you know, the bipartisanship is obvious.
I think something that is also worth noting is that he's taking a lot of people who have direct links to Congress, meaning he's going to be serious about moving a legislative agenda. He's not going to just talk about it. He is not going to just jawbone Congress. He's not just going to stir up the masses and try to have them make a lot of phone calls to Washington, D.C. He's serious about getting stuff done. We will see if he can really hit the ground running.
FOREMAN: Do you buy that, Michael? Do you think these ties to Congress can actually pay off? Because Congress had its own problems.
(LAUGHTER)
CROWLEY: Well, no, I think it is right.
I think one of the concerns that people had about Obama early in the process and that was a big part of Hillary Clinton's case against him in the primaries was Washington -- remember when she said the skies will not open, the angels will not come down, celestial choirs singing? It is hard work. You have to really get in the trenches.
He has surrounded himself with people who can do that work in the trenches. He's showing: I understand it's not about giving inspirational speeches. You have to have guys like Rahm Emanuel, who can swing...
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: Let me interrupt you there, though.
And, Bay, let me get you in on this...
BUCHANAN: Yes.
FOREMAN: ... because it seems to me the problem is, when you bring in a lot of talented people, they bring in a lot of big egos. And if you're not that experienced, they can also be hard to corral.
BUCHANAN: There's no question that is true.
But it's a tribute to Barack Obama that he's hiring people, bringing people around him that are strong. That shows that he is strong himself. He is not going to be intimidated. He doesn't need yes-people around him.
That I think strengthens the government. What I ask, though, he talks about change. That was the key. I don't see any change here. I don't know how you expect new ideas to come from people who have been there, we have heard from, for year after year.
FOREMAN: Yes. But, at the same time, Bay -- and I will turn to you with this, Errol -- when the economy starts pitching around this way, you have these kind of problems, I would guess even a lot of people who want change also want a little stability right now.
LOUIS: Sure.
I mean, what I see Obama doing is setting himself up as the inspirer in chief, above the fray, made of Teflon. He will be the one to try and herd the cats, but he's not going to let any of this mud stick to him.
FOREMAN: He's got some big cats in there to herd right now.
(LAUGHTER)
FOREMAN: Hold on one second. We're going to come back with you guys in a little bit.
When we come back, here's a change, big news on the economy today. And this time, it could actually trickle down to help you with your holiday shopping, no kidding. Stick around.
Also coming up, one week, only one week left before the Big Three car companies must deliver their plan to Congress. It didn't go well last time. We are in Lansing, Michigan, talking to workers who could lose their jobs.
Plus, in the "Say what?" department, she's back. Sarah Palin is campaigning again in Georgia, about as far from Alaska as you can get. Details in our "PDB" coming up. Stick with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: If we are going to make the investments we need, we also have to be willing to shed the spending that we don't need. In these challenging times, when we're facing both rising deficits and a shrinking economy, budget reform is not an option. It's a necessity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: That was president-elect Obama today, saying it's not enough for government to spend, spend, spend. He said that in Chicago as he added more names to the roster of those who will be charged with helping his new administration revive the economy that is worrying all of us, that from the president-elect, who, despite what he says, is sounding a lot like the guy in charge right now, even though the inauguration is some time off. We will talk about that in just a moment.
Also today, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson added to the bailout plan again, another $200 billion to unfreeze consumer credit, whatever that means. Perhaps it's a sign of hope. Maybe the bailout finally is being aimed at the average American wallet, instead of the big pockets of those big-money bankers.
Ali Velshi is here to help us make sense of this development.
Ali, tell me how this works and why it might help me.
ALI VELSHI, CNN SENIOR BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: All right, look, we are going to take people struggling with their mortgages out of this equation, because it doesn't help them yet. But there's a development here that you should know about.
First of all, I want to show you this. This is basically the deal we have got right now. The government has replaced major investors and investment bankers as the financer of choice. They give money directly to corporations. They lend money to corporations. Those corporations needed those loans in order to keep their operating costs going, to keep paying your salaries. So that part of the credit freeze started to come unfrozen.
The other thing governments were doing is they were lending money to banks, recapitalizing those banks, with the understanding that that money would trickle down into consumer loans, car loans, student loans, things like that. That is what has not been happening all that well.
So, here's what was announced today, $200 billion worth of money, and the government is sort of circumventing this. They are lending money to banks, but not in the traditional way. They're actually buying up consumer loans, things like car loans, things like student loans, consumer credit, credit cards.
So, just like mortgages get resold, now those kind of loans are getting resold. The trick here is that the government is lending money that is likely to be used for the purpose which is intended. What happened was, when the government was giving money to the banks at the highest levels, it wasn't filtering all the way down.
So, the issue here, Tom, is that, maybe, maybe we are getting closer to the individual, to getting money -- consumer credit for individuals. And right now at this crucial time of year, people who otherwise were not able to get credit, because they were buying a car or because maybe they were buying something for the holiday season, they may find it easier to get some credit. And they're hoping that will goose the economy.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: The real goal here is to have people out who are considering doing their holiday shopping as soon as the turkey settles to feel like maybe they can.
VELSHI: Right. Right.
And I'm not entirely sure that's the right plan. But the bottom line is, the money that was intended to go to these banks and trickle down has not been trickling down. So, what the government is doing is trying to get it closer to individuals.
FOREMAN: Still does nothing about the mortgage problem.
VELSHI: It does not do anything about the mortgage problem, but there was a second thing announced today, and that was worth $600 billion, where the government is actually going to be buying some loans from Fannie and Freddie and Ginnie Mae.
And that should make more money available to people who are looking for mortgages, helps people looking for homes. The advantage there is that, if you were trying to get rid of your home because you're in trouble, a little bit easier credit might mean that you might be able to sell that.
FOREMAN: We hope on this Thanksgiving week, it's something to be thankful for.
VELSHI: That's right.
FOREMAN: That's for the news, Ali. It's good to know. Thanks.
VELSHI: OK.
FOREMAN: Still to come tonight, our panel looks at the shape of the administration to come and this question: Why does it feel so much like president-elect Obama is already in charge?
Plus, while we try to grasp $1.5 trillion in bailouts, we're all wondering, how is it that some millionaires are getting farm subsidies they do not deserve, millions of dollars of your money?
And the troubling question raised by a Missouri girl's suicide. All of us were talking about it here today. I'm sure you were, too. How do you protect your kids from online bullies and what can we do to help? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: There is only one president at a time. That president is George W. Bush, and he will be president until I'm sworn in on January 20th.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Yes, on January 20. They keep saying there's only one president, but it seems very much like we have at least one-and-a-half right now. So, let's bring back our panel. Bay Buchanan, Errol Louis, and Michael Crowley are all here to help us out.
Let me start with you, Errol.
Obama right now seems to be walking a very thin line with all this news breaking tonight, all these important things, having to get out in front of it, having to play the game, and yet acknowledge that he is not president yet. How does he do it?
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: Is he doing a good job?
LOUIS: Well, listen, it works.
Look, he did everything except pardon the turkey. I think what we are going to see is that he is aware that while he is maybe draining some of his honeymoon time, he is going to get another honeymoon. The inauguration in 55 days is going to be an incredible national event. There will be five million people crowding into Washington, D.C. There will be a lot of goodwill. He basically can start over again.
So it's to his advantage I think to try and put his pieces in place, understanding that it's going to cost him a little bit in the polls. People are going to start to associate him with a crisis that he really did not create. But he will get to start over in January. It's kind of a do-over.
FOREMAN: Yes, but, Michael Crowley, let me ask you about this. In some ways, he could play it very safe by saying, this is George Bush's presidency. I want nothing to do with it, and it remains George Bush's problem.
CROWLEY: Yes.
FOREMAN: Why isn't he doing that?
CROWLEY: Because the problem will inevitably become his. And the problem is that the substance outweighs the optics.
He is going to inherit this problem, and he wants to get involved. He wants to get the ball rolling, get his team together.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: You're saying the reality of these problems is so big that appearances don't matter; he's got to get on it?
(CROSSTALK)
CROWLEY: So severe. The way in which appearances matter is actually another argument for him to get out there, which is the psychology of what's happening right now, which is there's evidence that the market -- you saw this morning -- he leaked the name of Geithner on Friday and the market surged.
The market wants to see the new team is there, they're on the ball, they're on top of this, smart guys are coordinating with the Bush administration. There's not going to be this dead period where we just kind of spiral off into disaster. He doesn't want to inherit a disaster, so he's trying to mitigate it now.
FOREMAN: So, Bay, are Republicans glad to see him being proactive or do they say, look, you're stepping on our president; back off?
BUCHANAN: No, I think the key here is that President Bush clearly has lost the faith of the American people. They don't believe in his leadership anymore.
And we obviously, all of us, I don't care what party you are from, want to see this economic crisis be stabilized and start to turn around. So, I think Barack Obama, not only is it in his interest, it is in the nation's interest, that he set out what he wants to do, tells Congress what he needs them to do in the interim, so they're ready late January, and we can move forward.
He's going to take the reins in late January. In order to be successful, he should have a program in place. The country is facing the greatest crisis in 75 years.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: So, Bay, are you suggesting -- and I don't want to go too far with this -- but that Republicans would rather have Barack Obama in charge right now than George Bush?
BUCHANAN: No. I'm suggesting that we need to make certain as a nation that the next president -- you can't solve this economic crisis over Christmas, no matter who the president is, Tom.
So, we do need as a people to make certain the guy taking charge is going do give some new, interesting direction and hopefully be able to turn things around. But, clearly, they're working together. Citibank, as much as I thought that bailout was outrageous the way it was formed, they worked together with Rubin to make certain he took care of his old friends.
So they're all working together right now, which is what we should be doing in order to see if we can't stabilize things as fast as possible for America.
FOREMAN: Michael, quickly here, what is the most important thing Barack Obama has to do now and between Inauguration Day?
CROWLEY: Boy, show -- I think show the economy, investors, the market that there's a plan, it makes sense, it is grounded, it is going to pass quickly, they can expect relief, he will sign a bill soon after he's inaugurated.
But it's a terrifying time, two wars. The economy's melting down. It's a really tough presidency. It's a poisoned chalice, you might say.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: And, Errol, you get the final word. Can he pull it off?
LOUIS: Last month was the worst consumer confidence numbers since they began keeping them. He has got to do something to sort of spur some confidence going into this crucial holiday retail season. It could make the difference between billions of dollars and thousands of jobs. He's got to try it.
FOREMAN: Hey, the good part is, it looks like it can't go anywhere but up this point.
LOUIS: Indeed.
FOREMAN: Thanks for being here. Michael, Bay, Errol, good to have you here.
You can start a pretty hot argument by asking who's most deserving of a government handout right now. Still ahead, some folks who say they need to be near the front of that line soon.
And next, hang on to your poncho. We will see what Dana Milbank is planning to cover or uncover in tonight's "PDB."
Stay warm. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHREYA ANGARA, THIRD-GRADER: Dear Mr. President Obama, congratulations. I wish you good luck on being president. I like that you are lowering taxes for poor people. I thought you would lose Virginia, but you won it. I hope you have fun being president.
From Shreya Angara, Greenbriar West, third grade, Fairfax, Virginia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: That's 9-year-old Shreya Angara from Centreville, Virginia, such a big fan of Barack Obama, he even drew a picture of him. Look at that there, nice work.
Kids across the country are writing letters to the president- elect. If you want to share your child's letter with us, just look for the I-Report link on our Web site, CNN.com/campbellbrown. We actually do want to hear from you. Let us know about this. This is good stuff.
What campaign superstar trying to get his mojo back and which politico is hearing wedding bells? It's all in the "PDB," tonight's "Political Daily Briefing." For answers to some of those questions and much more, we turn to our man in Washington, Dana Milbank.
Dana, how are you tonight?
DANA MILBANK, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Good evening, Tom.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: It's a beautiful day up here in New York.
John McCain held his first major press conference since losing the election today. What for?
MILBANK: Well, good question. He made very clear that he is going to run for the Senate again in 2010. No huge surprise there. His sort of political mentor, Barry Goldwater, stayed in the Senate for 22 years after his presidential defeat. So, at that rate, we can expect McCain to retire in the year 2030 at age 94.
In the meantime, he seems to have found a new job for himself. And John McCain is now serving as a spokesman for the Obama transition. The president-elect has not yet announced who his secretary of homeland security will be, but McCain announced that it will, in fact, be Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano. He did this over and over again today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I applaud many of the appointments that president-elect Obama has announced, including what is pretty well-known, and that is a selection of Governor Janet Napolitano as the new head of Department of Homeland Security.
Citizens of Arizona are very proud to have a border state governor and someone with her knowledge and expertise serving in this very, very important and vital position. Now, I believe that she will do an outstanding job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILBANK: Now, stay tuned, Tom, as John McCain announces that Hillary Clinton will be secretary of state and Bob Gates will, indeed, lead the Pentagon.
FOREMAN: Well, if you have got some beans, you may as well spill them, I guess.
(LAUGHTER)
FOREMAN: A high-profile Republican was in Georgia today -- this is like my favorite story of the whole day -- to help campaign in the Senate runoff there. But an even higher-profile Republican is heading there next week. Tell us about it.
MILBANK: They're bringing in all the heavy hitters. McCain has been there, Huckabee, Romney, Bill Clinton, Al Gore. Obama has made robocalls. We have Rudy Giuliani in there today. But who is Saxby Chambliss going to call on as his closer the day before the election? You betcha. It is going to be Sarah Palin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SARAH PALIN (R), ALASKA: It's all about the future.
So, in this election, the choices
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Well, we will have to see how that works out.
And it looks like Joe the plumber is apparently not getting a whole lot of plumbing work, because he's trying to extend his 15 minutes of fame. What is going on?
MILBANK: Well, I prefer to think of him as a versatile fellow. He is a plumber. Now he's also a TV repairman. He signed up with this company called velocitystore.com.
They're selling these converters to go from analog to digital on your television. And he's quite a good pitch man. Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE WURZELBACHER, RESIDENT OF OHIO: Hi, America. I'm Joe Wurzelbacher. You know me as Joe the plumber.
And I am partnered with my friends at velocitystore.com to help America go digital for the DTV transition.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MILBANK: And the next thing you know, I suspect he will have a line of plumbing supplies to sell, and if he is really good at this, maybe we can get him a sportswear line as well.
FOREMAN: I have been in television a long time. I had no idea it had to do with plumbing.
And the invitation's now in the mail for wedding of Florida Governor Charlie Crist.
MILBANK: Yes. I mean, this has been a sad holiday season.
The Pentagon has had to cancel its holiday party to cut costs, but Charlie Crist is getting married on December 12. The bride is a costume heiress named Carole Rome. The invitation, of course, leaked. "The St. Petersburg Times" got ahold of it and put it up there.
Now, they say the black tie is optional, which that raises the possibility that guests could wear costumes, say, made by the bride's company. Some of my favorites are the bumblebee. It's a corset and garter number. There's a Vampira with fangs and fishnet, the velveteen tunic with a Viking helmet, and then, of course, the supreme plush chicken suit. So, Tom, I would say we should crash the wedding, you go with the Viking tunic, and I will be the supreme chicken.
FOREMAN: We will be a pair, my friend. Thanks, Dana.
MILBANK: OK, thanks.
FOREMAN: Next, high anxiety, autoworkers, they're thankful they still have jobs but what if there's no bailout down the road for them?
Also ahead, millionaire farmers getting a handout from the government. What's wrong with this picture? We're on to the "NO BIAS, NO BULL."
And later, an online hoax and a teenage suicide. You've heard about it. It's quite terrible. For us, this is all about accountability. How do we protect ourselves and our children from malicious online strangers?
Stick around.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: Tonight, the big three U.S. automakers have one week left to explain to Congress in detail how they would spend $25 billion in your government's bailout money. That means one more week of crushing uncertainty and anxiety for those assembly line workers who actually make the cars from GM, Ford and Chrysler.
Gary Tuchman is up in Lansing, Michigan, where a lot of people are worrying about how much longer they'll have jobs.
Gary, you're talking to a lot of people out there, they saw the big three bosses come here to town and not do so well. Are they expecting a better showing next week?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you, Tom, 105 years after Henry Ford started Ford Motors here in Michigan, it's come down to this. You have a situation where autoworkers here in Michigan and throughout the country are angry. They're anxious, they're scared because they think the possibility exists that tens of thousands of jobs will disappear, that the American auto industry become a shell of itself.
We're standing outside this huge GM Cadillac plant in Lansing, Michigan. This is the state capital here in Michigan, and there are 3,500 workers who work inside there. There used to be 14,000 in the heyday of this industry, but many of the people inside feel they could be out of jobs very soon.
Now, we tried to talk to them today. Many of them, they run away from us as soon as we got to them right away. They're afraid that we may twist their words. They're afraid they may look bad to the union. They're afraid they may look bad to the president of the United States who's watching TV. But then we spent some time explaining we want to get your words out there and then it becomes like the psychologist/patient relationship maybe in the untrained psychologist. They spilled their guts and they basically say they can't believe that Congress is bailing out banks, bailing out insurance companies and is considering not bailing them out. They feel that if the American auto industry disappears, then much of this country's culture disappears.
This is a big union area, Tom. You know, when you drive in a lot of the union shops here in the Lansing area, for example, you see signs that say no non-North American vehicles are allowed in our parking lot. And we went into the parking lot today with my Korean Hyundai. I was a little embarrassed, but it was a rent-a-car. I didn't realize it, but you see there's a lot of pride in their unions, a lot of pride in this industry. And the fact is a lot of people here don't have any other training whatsoever. If they lose these jobs, they don't have much else -- Tom.
FOREMAN: Well, at least the other question there, Gary, do many people up there have any alternatives or contingency plans if indeed the bailout doesn't come through and if indeed, as predicted, some of these plans go under?
TUCHMAN: We spent some of the lunch hour today in a tavern here where people were a little more relaxed and talked to us a bit. And we talked to people who have been with the company 25, 30, 35 years working here for General Motors, and they said they're the best in the world at making cars, but they really don't have any other skills. And they're so desperately afraid that if they watch TV next week and the Congress is not impressed with the big three automakers' leaders and they decide to shut down this industry, they have absolutely no idea what they'll do next. A lot of the people we talked to.
FOREMAN: All right. Many thanks, Gary Tuchman.
President-elect Obama says we can't just write a blank check to the auto industry but check this out. It was overshadowed by yesterday's big announcement of Obama's economic team, but it might give those autoworkers that Gary was just talking about a little bit of hope. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: My attitude is that we should help the auto industry but what we should expect is that any additional money that we put into the auto industry, any help that we provide is designed to assure a long-term sustainable auto industry, and not just kicking the can down the road.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: I want to turn now to one man who's very interested in sustaining the auto industry, the mayor of Lansing, Michigan, Virg Bernero.
Thanks for joining me, mayor. When you hear those words from Barack Obama, encouraging? Discouraging? What do you think?
MAYOR VIRG BERNERO, LANSING, MICHIGAN: Well, you know, I hope that he understands what these people believe in, what we believe in in this country. One of the most productive industries in the history of the world, the automotive industry, they've done so much for so many over a long period of time.
Really, the auto industry helped create the middle class in this country. We're making great cars. We've really turned the corner. We're making cleaner and greener and today, of course, the Insurance Institute came out. Some of the safest cars in the world are made by the big three. We want to keep that going.
Our people are great people. They work hard. Unlike Washington and Wall Street where they largely have produced hot air and hysteria, these people here actually make something. They make products that sell all over the world. It's a tough market out there, but they're doing a heck of a job.
Of course, last year we made the motor trend car of the year, right here, the Cadillac CTS in Lansing, Michigan. So we know we can make great cars but we're competing at a really uneven playing field right now that's been created by Congress and by successive administrations. You give the American worker the opportunity to compete and they will.
FOREMAN: Well, mayor, you make a very good case for your industry there. And accordingly, you had to be terribly disappointed at the case made by the big auto bosses when they got in front of Congress. It seemed like they didn't have a lot of answers. The answers they did have did not seem to satisfy the Congress people here. What do you wish they would have said?
BERNERO: Well, yes, I think they could have done before. And, of course, you know, we got to ground the corporate jets. But, look, the real -- the main thing that the auto industry is guilty of is they're guilty of continuing to invest. They're guilty of continuing to invest in this country.
Look at this plant behind me, billions of dollars that they have invested. And they continue to invest in this country.
(CROSSTALK)
FOREMAN: Hold on a second, mayor. Hold on a second, mayor. Wait. Just wait a second there.
I understand what you're trying to say there. But at the same time, the complaint has been that yes, great cars are being made here now. Wonderful innovations are being made now toward -- toward new sorts of hybrid cars, all that sort of thing, but that the big automakers were a little bit too slow to get there. It's going to take a while to catch up. How do you get them to take that message seriously while not punishing the people of your town who need their jobs? BERNERO: Well, absolutely they do. And we've been to Washington to fight for them. You know, we're tired of the double standard. We see the bailouts, $150 billion. No strings attached for AIG.
We see today or yesterday and today, $350 billion for Citigroup. Again, very little strings attached. So we don't mind the conditions. That's fine.
Look at the Chrysler bailout. That investment paid off. Thirty years of productivity by Chrysler and the investment here and across the country will pay off.
You know, the multiplier effect for these jobs is 7.5. If we were to close down in Lansing, that would mean 45,000 jobs around the country. So the multiplier for Wall Street is like two jobs for every one job, you know.
So we would like to see -- we would like to be treated fairly. We would like folks in Washington to understand the importance of this industry, the bread and butter industry of this country that spreads throughout the country. The working people, the blue collar that are every bit as important and I think more important than the white collars, these bankers and the paper shufflers on Wall Street that have been saved.
Let's look out for Middle America. Again, this was the middle class of this country and they're making great products. They've turned the corner. They're greener than ever before. You know GM makes more hybrid vehicles than any other company.
FOREMAN: Mayor --
BERNERO: You know GM outsold Toyota last year.
FOREMAN: Mayor, I'm afraid --
BERNERO: So they're making cars that people want. Now with the credit crunch --
FOREMAN: I'm afraid we do know that, but I appreciate you're reminding us. We're out of time. I wish you could come to Washington and talk. I think a lot of people there would like to hear from you.
Mayor Bernero, thanks for joining us.
BERNERO: Thanks very much.
FOREMAN: Our kids spend tons of time online. And just when you think everybody's comparing homework notes, somebody sends a message. Did you see what so and so wrote about you today? You've seen it if you're a parent.
Next, we live with the potentially deadly consequences of online bullying and one time one where it came all too true. And we try to find some answers about what can be done about it. And the CEO of a company that's getting huge bailout bucks proves he gets it. Later, going to extremes to show taxpayers that he does feel your pain.
Plus, in our "NO BIAS, NO BULL" "Bull's-Eye" tonight, the Pentagon doing the right thing. Stay with us. We'll tell you about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: Some big breaking news tonight. A Los Angeles jury has been deliberating the fate of a woman whose Internet hoax led to a teenage girl's suicide. We'll get you the latest in a moment.
The background, Lori Drew is accused of conspiracy and accessing computers without authorization. She created a fictitious teenage boy on MySpace whose cyber bullying, prosecutors say, drove 13-year-old Megan Meier to kill herself in 2006. It's a shocking case that raises disturbing questions.
The latest news just in now. The jury has indicated that it has reached verdicts on three of the four charges. Wants to know from the judge if they can be hung on the last charge. He said, let's come back to this tomorrow and see what happens. So we don't have a verdict that we can to talk about now but we do know there's been some real movement there.
So let's get some guidance from some folks who could tell us more about all this. CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin and Dr. Gail Saltz, associate professor of Psychiatry at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
Jeffrey, let me talk with you. Gosh, this is one of those cases that drive people crazy because the actual charges were not about the murder. The charges were about something else.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: You know, this case is morally simple but legally complicated. This woman is unspeakable what she did to this child, but the law does not have an easy or simple way of dealing with her conduct. So the state prosecutors in Missouri decided not to bring charges at all and instead prosecutors in Los Angeles where MySpace is headquartered turned this into a fraud case where the woman, Ms. Drew, is accused of defrauding MySpace by violating their rules harassing this young woman.
FOREMAN: It's really a complex one, but I think I inadvertently called it a murder not a suicide, but it led to suicide anyway.
TOOBIN: Right.
FOREMAN: Terrible case but let me ask you about this, Gail. Do we have in our society yet the language and the way of behaving to answer what we're supposed to do online? Because I've got kids at home they're doing their homework.
DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Right.
FOREMAN: I'm monitoring what they're doing but they're all doing all sorts in the school post, the schedule online. The swim team's schedules online.
SALTZ: Right (ph).
FOREMAN: The dance schedules online. Everything is online.
SALTZ: Yes.
FOREMAN: And people parachute in and say what they want in the middle of our house.
SALTZ: It's a new world but it's an old world. Bullying has always been there. But now, there are all these new vehicles and parents and schools haven't really caught up very well with what to be doing, programs to be implementing and there could be programs implemented, and parents discussing what do you do when you're sitting there online.
FOREMAN: Do people fundamentally do things differently when they're anonymous than they do otherwise?
SALTZ: Absolutely. It emboldens them even further. And then there can be the mob mentality, which is basically what you saw here. A group coming together and they pump each other up and they do even more but when they're anonymous, of course, the feeling of conscience is even less.
FOREMAN: So, Jeffrey, when we look at cases like this, what's wrong with removing the anonymity? Why not stamp on computers in effect an electronic license plate like we have on our cars? Everywhere your computer goes, we will know it was yours?
TOOBIN: Well, there is an IP address for each computer so there are ways of tracking people if you want to do it in a forensic way. But day-to-day people are not -- you don't have the technology to track down peoples' IP address.
But, you know, I'm not sure this is a place where the government needs to regulate further. The Internet has grown fabulously, very successfully, created millions of different applications. Changing the technology to deal with this problem, I'm not sure is the answer.
FOREMAN: Yes. But how else do we deal with it? If we don't change the laws, how do we change it, Jeffrey?
TOOBIN: Well, I think parents have to supervise more. I think blaming the technology is not necessarily the right idea.
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: Society has to step up to the plate here. There is a real and significant problem and this isn't the first terrible consequence of bullying and it presides -- FOREMAN: Very quickly, how does society step up to the plate when now they said, everything you're doing now requires being on computers for your kids, too, hours and hours and hours?
SALTZ: OK. It's nothing off because you've got to educate. How many parents do you think actually sit down and say, some messages are going to come to you. It's going to make you uncomfortable, or it's going to scare you? What do I want you to do? Step away from the computer. Do not answer right away.
You need to think about what's being said. You need to come to me and discuss what's being said. If a parent has a bad feeling something is going on, they need to investigate.
FOREMAN: Helps the kid, helps the family?
SALTZ: They need to -- they potentially if a bullying situation is, they need to go to a school.
FOREMAN: All right.
SALTZ: The school needs to teach empathy.
FOREMAN: I got to tell you, that's what I tell my kids. I always say when they get a message like that, we didn't invite these people into our house.
SALTZ: That's right.
FOREMAN: Turn off the computer and get away from it.
SALTZ: And that will deter a lot of bullying.
FOREMAN: I hope it does for some people.
Gail, Jeffrey, I wish we had more time to talk about this. We will in the future.
In a minute, we're going to turn back to government bailouts with a different perspective. Wait until you hear who's already getting gobs of money from Uncle Sam.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN COOK, ENVIRONMENTAL WORKING GROUP: And if you're spending millions and millions of dollars in farm subsidies on wealthy individuals who live in Saudi Arabia or Hong Kong or Great Britain, or own sports teams or otherwise very wealthy, you're not doing the American taxpayer justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Does your government do that? You bet your sweet subsidy. Find out what if anything is being done to stop it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) FOREMAN: This year, 'tis the season to be frugal and tonight's "Bull's-Eye" goes to an organization that almost never fits that description. Who could that be?
But first, Randi Kaye has tonight's "Briefing."
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Tom.
There were tense moments above Los Angeles today as a good pilot in a plane with some bad landing gear headed in for an emergency landing. He shut off the propellers and let the plane glide onto the runway at the Van Nuys Airport. He and his passenger walked away unhurt.
And the new top boss of AIG is taking one heck of a pay cut. Edward Liddy's salary will be $1 a year for 2008 and 2009. $1. AIG is the giant insurance company that took a $150 billion government bailout then was embarrassed by reports of expensive junkets to fancy resorts.
FOREMAN: Thanks very much, Randi. Good to have you here.
KAYE: You're very welcome.
FOREMAN: Larry King is live in just a few minutes away. Larry has assembled his own team of power players to talk about the Obama economic plan. What's coming up, Larry?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": You got it, Tom. Barack Obama is not wasting any time moving at warp speed to address the economy, and he isn't even president yet. Is there a danger in what he's doing or is it a daring even necessary move?
We're going to talk about it with people like Vernon Jordan and the Google CEO, Eric Schmidt, and the famed casino developer, Steve Wynn, and others. All on "LARRY KING LIVE" next, Tom.
FOREMAN: Thanks, Larry. Always a great show. We'll be watching.
It seems as if everyone is on line for a government bailout but Uncle Sam's already forking over tons of money for millionaires. They get farm subsidies and the law says they shouldn't. So how did this happen? Who's accountable? We'll tell you.
"NO BIAS, NO BULL" in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT: The report today that from 2003 to 2006 millionaire farmers received $49 million in crop subsidies even though they were earning more than the $2.5 million cutoff for such subsidies. Now, if this is true and this was just a report this morning, but if it's true, it is a prime example of the kind of waste that I intend to end as president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Now you know you got a problem when the president-elect calls you out as a prime example of waste in the federal budget. So who are these millionaire farmers anyway and how they managed to get a government handout?
Joe Johns has been digging into all of this for us. He's here with the story behind that sound bite. And "NO BIAS, NO BULL," Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Tom, farm subsidies, millions of dollars worth of your money are being funneled into bank accounts of millionaires living overseas in places like Hong Kong, Saudi Arabia, the United Kingdom according to a recent report by the Government Accountability Office.
Here's the problem. The law on farm subsidies says if you earn more than $2.5 million a year, you don't need farm subsidy payments. That report says more than 2,700 millionaires who, you guessed it, exceeded the income cap of $2.5 million still received about $49 million in questionable farm subsidy payments between the years of 2003 and 2006. The government won't tell us who's getting all this money because the information comes from tax records the IRS is required by law to keep private.
But we do know this. Some of the people who got paid from your tax dollars don't sound average and they certainly don't sound like average family farmers. The part owner of a professional sports team got $200,000. A former insurance executive got $300,000. A top executive of a major financial services firm got $60,000.
If there's some reasonable explanation for why folks like this got the subsidies they did, no one's been able to find out. The Agriculture Department says only a small number of questionable payments were uncovered by GAO. It also says it wasn't able to sniff this out because it didn't have access to tax records. A watchdog group says it's a question of accountability.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN COOK, ENVIRONMENTAL WORKING GROUP: We really have to have the Department of Agriculture that plays by the rules, makes sure that subsidy recipients play by the rules, get that information back to Congress to make sure the system is working. Get that information out to the public to make sure that we build faith in the ability of the government to do things the right way. Build some faith in the citizens of this country that when the government is spending money, we're not wasting it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNS: So, OK. The $49 million question, is there any way to get the money back? The Environmental Working Group thinks there is but says it would be up to the Agriculture Department to first conclude which payments were improper and then go and get your money back.
FOREMAN: Don't we have a Congress to handle things like this? And if so, why haven't they used some kind of enforcement mechanism to stop this?
JOHNS: Well, we do have a Congress and that Congress is subject to the influence of, ta-da, the subsidy lobby. So there are people out there who very much want to keep this pipeline of money flowing and every year there's a fight over it and every year things just stay the same.
FOREMAN: Yes. Boy, the gift that keeps on giving. Thanks, Joe.
It's not all government waste in Washington. We'll tell you why one top official canceled a holiday party for hundreds of fat cats. No kidding. He earns our "Bull's-Eye" tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOREMAN: A double "Bull's-Eye" wraps it up for us tonight. Joint Chiefs Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen is really getting into the spirit of this year's holiday season because of what the Pentagon calls these trying financial times. Mullen canceled a large holiday reception traditionally hosted by the Joint Chiefs. Instead, he and his wife will host a smaller reception for wounded servicemen and women.
And tonight's second "Bull's-Eye" goes to all of you who made bailout the most looked up word in Merriam Webster online. Let's hope it helps in the new year with the word recovery.
"LARRY KING LIVE" up now.
