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Campbell Brown
Interview With Pastor Rick Warren; Big Three Seek $34 Billion Bailout
Aired December 04, 2008 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody.
A bailout loan for the Big Three has another life tonight.
Bullet point number one, we learned new details from the automakers' CEOs in front of senators today. The heads of GM and Chrysler warn they will run out of money and basically shut down without government help, but getting approval still a tough sell and through it all, the one person who has been pretty silent, president- elect Obama. That's not sitting too well with some top Democrats in Congress. We will talk about that.
Ali Velshi is going to be here with all the latest details for us coming up.
Bullet point number two, Pastor Rick Warren for the NO BIAS, NO BULL interview. He had a very influential role, as you will remember, during the campaign. He is here tonight. We will ask him what kind of president he thinks Barack Obama will be and also what he told Governor Sarah Palin when they talked during the campaign.
Bullet point number three tonight: the nanny who saved a toddler from the Mumbai terrorists. For the first time, in her own words, we're going to hear the story of how they survived. It is the exclusive story of this nanny's extraordinary heroism. We will have that for you tonight.
First, though, as always, we are "Cutting Through the Bull."
A break from the headlines, it is a small story tonight, but still a bit of a shocker. A pregnant woman and her husband are rushing to the hospital in the breakdown lane of a Massachusetts highway. The story comes from "The Boston Globe."
Yes, the couple is going too fast. Yes, they're in the breakdown lane, but the woman is in labor. There is a big traffic jam, and they are in a considerable hurry, for fairly obvious reasons.
So, they pull up behind a state trooper to ask for his help in getting to the hospital? Do they get his help? They do not. Instead, they get a ticket for $100. And they have to wait while the cop finishes the ticket he was already writing for somebody else.
And after this woman in labor and her husband have been made to cool their heels and have been slapped with a $100 ticket, after all of that, the trooper tops it off by asking Jennifer Davis, the woman in question, to prove that she is pregnant.
According to Davis, the trooper said, "What's under your jacket" And she said, "My belly," to which the trooper responded, "OK, let's see it."
She was wearing a jacket, it seems, so perhaps this intrepid law enforcer thought that she and her husband were stealing a very large beach ball or something.
Anyway, our purpose here is not to heap scorn on the particular trooper and -- who ticketed and slowed down and humiliated a woman while her contractions were three minutes apart. No, that's not our point tonight. And that is why we're not using his name.
Just consider this a memo to the Massachusetts State Police. You ought to check your trooper's hats. One of them is wearing one that is way, way too small. Maybe it's just me, because I'm pregnant, that this one is getting under my skin.
But, if you have any thoughts, we would love it if you would share them with us. Go to CNN.com/Campbell, and click on the link to send us your comments and your questions. We will share some of those with you a little bit later in the show.
And we're going to back now to the big news tonight, the CEOs of the Big Three auto companies back on Capitol Hill still begging for a big taxpayer loan. This time, instead of flying to Washington in their private luxury jets, the top bosses of Ford, Chrysler, and GM drove to today's hearings in new fuel-efficient hybrids.
And the humility was the order of the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK WAGONER, CHAIRMAN & CEO, GENERAL MOTORS: We're here today because we made mistakes, which we're learning from, because some forces beyond our control have pushed us to the brink, and, most importantly, because saving General Motors and all this company represents is a job worth doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: One reason the car makers so humble, the price tag for rescuing them has actually gone up now. Last month, they asked Congress for a $25 billion loan. Check out what they wanted today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our plan respectfully requests $12 billion in short-term loans and a $6 billion line of credit.
ALAN MULALLY, CEO, FORD MOTOR COMPANY: Ford requests access to $9 billion in bridge financing.
ROBERT NARDELLI, CEO, CHRYSLER: Chrysler is requesting a $7 billion loan. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So $25 billion then, $34 billion now, and one expert predicted the final price tag could be $125 billion. No wonder the carmakers ran into some skepticism today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: There's nobody that I know of that thinks that three companies with the market share that you have, the downward trend that exists, the unsustainable debt that's out there, there's nobody, no thinking person thinks that all three companies can survive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Today, a real moment of truth as the Big Three automakers tried to explain that Congress why they should get the billions of dollars in bailouts that they want, that they say they desperately need.
Chief business correspondent Ali Velshi here now with me to explain whether or not they made their case.
So, give us their basic arguments today, Ali.
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it was six hours of testimony. And, honestly, most times congressional testimony can be pretty dry, but this is actually very detailed. They were there with their plans Congress has decided to talk about.
Here's one of their main arguments. I want you to look at this. This is a 10-year chart of auto sales. The top is GM. The middle one is Ford. The last one is Chrysler. You can see how they have declined in the last year in particular, right at the end of 2008.
Take a look at that. And I want to show you something else. I want to add three more to these if we have got them of the other automakers, the Japanese automakers. OK. We don't have those, but I can tell you exactly what happened.
They have been doing the same thing and then late in 2008, they also fell off a cliff. The U.S. automakers are making the point that all of this is their fault. You can blame them for bad management out here. But everybody's taken a dip in the last several months, because people are losing their jobs and they don't have access to credit.
So, it comes down, after six hours of testimony, to about three major arguments. Let's take a look at them. The first one, which I think was kind of the weakest, is the need for a U.S. auto industry. All three automakers and others said we need a homegrown domestic auto industry.
There may be a good argument for that, Campbell, but the bottom line is, Americans have voted with their dollars. Less than 50 percent of the cars sold in America are bagged with a Detroit brand on them.
Number two, the job losses. They made this point over and over again. I spoke to Bob Nardelli at Chrysler and he said while there are 55,000 salaried workers who work for the company, one million people depend on Chrysler being in operation. If all those three automakers were to fail -- and nobody thinks they all will -- we're looking at more than three million jobs lost in a country where we have almost lost 1.5 million this year.
And, fundamentally, this is it. Do you think they have got viable plans and will they be able to pay back the money? They have all talked about paying starting in 2010 into 2012. But again, you have got to believe that they're actually going to make a go of that business and be able to pay it back.
If you don't believe that, then it's what you said earlier. There are some people who think this $34 billion, which was $25 billion two weeks ago, could be $125 billion.
BROWN: Right.
We did hear some senators today say let them file bankruptcy and restructure.
VELSHI: Right.
BROWN: I know a lot of people think that's a bad idea. Explain why.
VELSHI: Right.
We think of bankruptcy as bankruptcy protection from your creditors and you reorganize and you come out as a stronger, leaner, meaner company. The automakers are saying, particularly GM and Chrysler, the two most vulnerable, are saying bankrupt in this case could go directly to liquidation.
I spoke to the CEO of Chrysler today, Bob Nardelli. I asked him this question. Here's what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NARDELLI: The three of us in Detroit believe that bankruptcy, first of all, will cost two to three times what we're asking for in Chrysler. We don't think that it is a viable alternative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELSHI: He went on to say that the problem there is that if they go into bankruptcy, people won't buy those cars and as a result they won't get any cash flow and there's nothing to restructure. The business will collapse.
BROWN: You have used this analogy to explain it to me before, saying that when an airline goes into bankruptcy, you still fly. VELSHI: Until that airline stops flying, you will buy a ticket, if you have got to fly somewhere tomorrow. But when a car company goes into bankruptcy, you don't know if they're going to be around, you won't buy that, because you don't know who is going to fix your car, where you will have to go to do it.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Where you will get parts, whatever. It's a totally different scenario.
VELSHI: That's the problem.
BROWN: There's urgency here, to say the least. What happens? Because it doesn't -- I mean, with the kind of disagreement we're hearing on Capitol Hill, it doesn't -- like, this isn't going to happen tomorrow.
(CROSSTALK)
VELSHI: If they decided it tonight, I don't think GM could get the money fast enough.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: So, what happens to GM, to Chrysler?
VELSHI: GM says it won't make it to the end of the year. Chrysler says it won't make it to March without this money.
So they have got to address the tough questions, because I think that a lot of resistance here is the idea that there's a gun to our heads. This was the same problem with the $700 billion bailout. We got past some of the reasoned argument because people said, don't threaten us. Don't give us doomsday scenarios.
And you know what? We have got a doomsday scenario on the hands here. So, it is a tough one.
BROWN: We will see what happens. Ali Velshi, appreciate it as always.
This is a political as well as a financial mess. So, next, we are going to expand the discussion. We have got three of the best political minds around.
Obama not even in office, and some Democrats are growing impatient with the president-elect. We will tell you what they're complaining about and what they say they want and need from him right now.
And then, later, Pastor Rick Warren is here for a NO BIAS, NO BULL discussion of politics. What kind of leader does he think president-elect Obama will be?
And in the horror of the Mumbai massacre, this little boy's life was saved by his nanny's extraordinary bravery. Tonight, in an exclusive CNN interview, she tells her incredible story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One answer everybody was curious about at today's auto hearings, well, we know the car company CEOs left their private jets back in Detroit, but did they actually drive themselves all the way to Washington and how are they getting home?
And here's what they said about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: Are you planning to drive back? You...
NARDELLI: Yes.
SHELBY: ... see all the press releases. You drove up here.
NARDELLI: Yes, sir. And I did have a colleague ride and we rotated. We drove -- left Tuesday night and drove until midnight and then got up at 5:30 the next morning and drove the rest of the way in and we did rotate and I do plan to drive back.
SHELBY: What about you?
MULALLY: We carpooled. I drove and I'm driving back.
SHELBY: You didn't carpool with him, did you?
MULALLY: No, carpooled with our Ford people.
SHELBY: OK. What about you?
WAGONER: I drove with a colleague. We split it up about 50/50. We drove down yesterday and I'm going to drive back myself Friday or Saturday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: They have learned a very valuable lesson.
But, wait, there's more to the story. It turns out the Chevy Volt isn't the car -- there it is -- there's a picture of it -- but that isn't the car that GM's Rick Wagoner drove all the way from Detroit in. He actually made the trip in a larger Chevy Malibu hybrid.
The Chevy Volt that he used today was actually only a prototype Volt inside the body of a different Chevrolet model. It doesn't actually exist yet. So, they're still going to have to work on their P.R. issues a little bit maybe.
Anyway, let's move on to the big question here. Is there any way to save the Big Three automakers? And if we don't, are the political, are the social consequences too dire? Sixty-one percent of the people in a CNN/Opinion Research poll opposed government assistance for the major auto companies.
Joining me now, some of the best political minds around, Eamon Javers, financial correspondent for "The Politico" joining me tonight, CNN contributor Stephen Hayes, senior writer for "The Weekly Standard," and "New York Daily News" county Errol Louis, also morning host for WWRL Radio here in New York.
Welcome, guys.
STEPHEN HAYES, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hi, Campbell.
BROWN: Let me start and just get your take, Eamon, on what you thought today of the arguments that were laid out.
EAMON JAVERS, "THE POLITICO": Well, I'll tell you, it looked to me like a lot of people are playing Russian roulette up on Capitol Hill today, as Chairman Dodd pointed out this morning, but not everybody's going to win this game of Russian roulette. And the question is, who?
And just to put this in a little bit of context for you, Campbell, take the market capitalizations of all three of these companies, the total value, what they're worth, it adds up to something on the order of about $16 billion. And they're asking for $34 billion. So, they're asking for more than twice as much as what all these companies are worth put together.
That's a big ask. And it didn't go over very well with all of the senators up on Capitol Hill, including Senator Shelby, the ranking member, the Republican, on this committee, who came into the outset and said, hey, I'm not for this thing. I'm not going to be for this thing, no matter what you say here.
So, it's a very, very tough road for these automakers right now.
BROWN: Errol, let me read you a little part of an editorial out today from the conservative "National Review."
It's saying -- quote -- "A bailout for the Big Three would only postpone their day of reckoning, at which point they would be back for more money."
Do you think the CEOs said anything today to convince Congress...
(CROSSTALK)
ERROL LOUIS, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": No, I don't. And I think "The National Review" is right.
You know, going on in the background, GMAC, the financing arm that has been failing itself -- it's got the lowest possible rating from Moody's -- they have been quietly trying to convert into a bank, just so that they can get some bank bailout money and sort of try and do through the side door what these folks are trying to do in the front door.
I mean, it is a mess. And there's no reason to believe -- I think the point is well taken. Congress could buy the company a couple of times over for what they're asking for, all three of the companies. It might not even be such a bad idea. But we have to get outside this narrow box of give me, give me, give me that they have been presenting on Capitol Hill.
HAYES: Yes, Errol, let's not give them any ideas, please.
(LAUGHTER)
HAYES: We don't want Congress to buy them at this point.
BROWN: But, Steve, let me ask you. A lot of Republicans are quick to say, you know, let these guys go belly up. But that means millions of people out of work, a devastating impact in many ways on the economy as a whole.
You have seen the trickle down effect or how widespread the effects of that would be, not to mention the lives of these people. This is a big chunk of our country that would just be devastated by this.
HAYES: Yes. I think Republicans just as a practical matter have to be very careful about how they make their argument, though I think they're making the correct argument for the reasons that Errol and the editors of "National Review" have laid out.
But it's one thing to say, look, we need to let these companies fail or need to lead them into managed bankruptcy or what have you. You need to actually explain to people what that means. And you need to explain why that's happening and why the companies have failed.
I think one of the things that Republicans haven't done very well lately, especially on this issue, is lay out a narrative, tell people why they have the views that they have, and tell them why these companies should fail.
BROWN: Eamon, Democrats seem particularly torn at the moment.
JAVERS: Yes.
BROWN: And you have got president-elect Obama at least in public being pretty noncommittal lately. With time of the essence here...
JAVERS: Sure.
BROWN: ... there's a sense of urgency. Should he be more aggressive, taking a stand and being more out in front on this?
JAVERS: Well, at some point, people are going to start to say, hey, wait a second. You are the president-elect. You're the central political figure in this country at this point. Where do you stand on this thing? He had a statement today saying that he thought that these plans were a little bit more constructive than they had been last time around. Last time he said he was surprised that they made such a bad performance. But where does Barack Obama really stand on this bailout? How much money would he support? What kind of conditions would he put on?
He is not really out there making speeches about this every day or at all. And people are going to start to wonder, where is the president-elect here?
(CROSSTALK)
JAVERS: I'm sorry. Go ahead.
BROWN: Well, let me interrupt you, because they are already being more than wondering sort of quietly. They're being pretty frank about this. This is Barney Frank, Congressman Barney Frank, on Obama today.
He said -- quote -- "At a time of great crisis with mortgage foreclosures and autos, he says" -- talking about Obama -- "we only have one president at a time." Barney Frank says: "I'm afraid that overstates the number of presidents we have. He's got to remedy that situation."
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Errol, I mean, there's some frustration there. This is the Democrat criticizing the new...
LOUIS: It is a pretty good line. But unless they want the White House running the congressional agenda on this and every other matter, I think they should be a little bit more realistic.
They have now 47 days to do what they can as a coequal independent body of government. If they can't, then that's another story. And then the president can -- and it is his role to step in. But if what they're saying is what they want to do is shift this and make sure that they're not on the record as having approved this very unpopular measure, that's a nonstarter in politics.
This is going to be unpopular. I think, though, they have to get used to the idea that 61 percent of the country can believe that they don't deserve a bailout and I think same percentage can say, well, we're going to have to grit our teeth and do something anyhow.
BROWN: All right, stand by, guys. We're going to talk more about this. I want to shift the discussion a little bit.
AT today's hearing, there were complaints about the government bailing out bankers and white-collar workers, but not being willing to do the same for blue-collar auto workers. When we come back, I want to ask you if we're resorting a little bit to class warfare in this debate right now. Then a little bit later, a CNN exclusive. For the first time since the Mumbai massacre, the nanny whose extraordinary bravery saved a little boy's life, as well as her own, she is going to tell us this incredible story.
And so is this another amazing story, a hero dog trying to save another injured dog. You can see it right there. We are going to have the full story when we come back as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D), OHIO: We are asking extraordinary things of our witnesses today, something that we didn't ask of bankers when they came in front of this committee or more precisely did not come in front of this committee.
We didn't ask that the CEO's of the banks drive to town in Wells Fargo armored truck. We didn't ask the CEO's of the banks, each of which was asking for -- each of which was given $25 billion, we didn't ask for them to appear before us. We didn't ask them to come up with a plan on how they were going to spend the money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senator Sherrod Brown raising a troubling question when it comes to bailouts. Is there a double standard at play? Wall Street didn't have to beg for a bailout. Why are the car companies down on their knees?
We want to bring back Eamon Javers, Stephen Hayes, and Errol Louis once again.
And, Steve, talk about this. I mean, some people see class warfare here, white-collar vs. blue-collar. When Wall Street had its meltdown, federal government threw money at the problem, no questions asked. Today, you have got the auto companies in a similar position and they're having to submit detailed proposals and plans. What message does that send to Americans?
HAYES: Well, I mean, look, as somebody who's skeptical of a lot of these bailouts for both white-collar and blue-collar workers, I think Sherrod Brown makes an interesting, but I think ultimately demagogic point.
He's fond of saying that what we're doing now is bailing out people who -- we're happy to bail out people who shower before they go to work, but not happy to bail out people who shower after they get home from work. And it is a good point. It is a good line. But, ultimately, I think it fundamentals misunderstands the problem.
The reason for the bailout of the banks, if you believe the people who argued for it, was because we needed to unfreeze credit, you know, among other things. We needed to keep sort of the circulation of the body going. And otherwise we would be facing potentially the collapse of the financial system. The automakers are a different deal together.
It would be more akin as one person put it to me as losing a foot. You don't want to do it, but it's not like the patient would die without the circulation flowing.
BROWN: Is that it, Errol? The bottom line is saving the banks is just more important to the overall economy than saving auto companies.
LOUIS: Well, there's an argument to be made for that.
On the other hand, I think that the senator is kind of missing the larger point that this ship sailed a long time ago. It sailed to India. It sailed to China. I mean, I hate to inform him that this country has for many years been picking winners and losers among sectors. And manufacturing has consistently been a loser.
It's been outsourced. It's been de-incentivized. All of the incentives have gone to other kind of sectors. And so it's really late at this point to say, my goodness, we're not treating manufacturing very well.
BROWN: I get all this, and not to suggest that you guys sound a little heartless to me, but here's the bottom line. We're talking about millions of people without jobs, with no hope for getting jobs in any other form in this part of the country.
Aren't we going to be paying for that regardless? I mean, be it welfare, or be it health care costs, isn't it -- ultimately, are we not writing a gigantic check by letting all these people go?
JAVERS: Well, that's exactly right, Campbell. And you sound a little bit like some of these auto guys today. They were saying, hey, wait a second, this has huge ramifications. Blame us. We made mistakes, they came out and said today, but this has huge ramifications for the rest of the economy.
They're talking about millions of workers who depend on these companies for their jobs and for their livelihoods and pensions. And lawmakers have to consider that as they make this decision. They can't just throw the Big Three over the side.
That's why I think ultimately this money is coming to the Big Three in one form or another, whether it's this month or in January, once the Democrats come in, because no politician is going to want to be the guy who voted to put GM out of business. It is just not a tenable political vote ultimately, and especially after we spent $700 billion on the financial industry. We can't spend $30 billion on the automakers?
That is just not going to win politically, but it's a hot potato right now, and they are all trying to avoid having to make the tough call.
BROWN: Yes. And, guys, we have got to end it there, unfortunately. But, Eamon, Steve, Errol, I think you're right. Politically, they're going to do it kicking and screaming, but I think they're going to do it.
Thank you very much. Appreciate it, the panel tonight.
We're going to turn to something a little less grim, shall we now. Pastor Rick Warren is here tonight. He's got a new book out talking about Christmas and spirituality. We're going to see if he can lift our spirits.
And we're also going to get his take on what he thinks of the president-elect and the job he's doing so far during this transitional phase.
Also, in the "Political Daily Briefing," why Oprah Winfrey thinks she is getting the cold shoulder from Sarah Palin.
And, tonight, for the first time, in her own words, the story of the nanny who saved a 2-year-old boy from terrorists in Mumbai. You are not going to want to miss this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEREE BEST, 8 YEARS OLD: Dear President Obama, my name is Jeree Best. I'm 8 years old. And I go to Johnson (ph) Elementary School.
I liked you from the beginning. You are a great person. And you will help our nation. Also, Hillary's a good person for supporting you.
I hope you, your daughters, your wife and maybe her mother will enjoy the White House. Maybe one day, I will shake your hand with pride.
Love, Jeree.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That's I-Reporter Jeree Best. And not only did she write a letter to the president-elect. She drew a picture, too. And here it is.
All over the country, children writing letters to president-elect Obama. We love it when you share them with us. So, to send your letter to the next president, with or without extra artwork, look for the I-Report link on our Web site, CNN.com/Campbell.
Time now for the "PDB," our "Political Daily Briefing."
One governor still won't sit down with the queen of daytime TV, another making a comeback, after a sex scandal cost him his job.
Dana Milbank in Washington for us tonight, as always. So, Dana, topping the "PDB," word that Sarah Palin is snubbing Oprah Winfrey?
DANA MILBANK, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it's sort of a case of dueling snubs here.
During the campaign, Oprah wouldn't have Palin on her show. So, now we have Oprah telling "Extra," the entertainment program, that, in fact, Palin won't come on her show. And I think this may be because Palin has been spending a lot of time in her closet. Now, I know how much you like this story, Campbell.
BROWN: Yes.
MILBANK: But I have to tell you, there is, shall we say, a new wrinkle in the Palin wardrobe scandal.
BROWN: Let's hear it.
MILBANK: The Republican National Committee is due to report by midnight tonight, that they spent an additional $30,000 on clothing and accessories for Palin and her family. That's in addition to the $150,000 they already reported.
BROWN: Oh, no. So we're at $180,000 grand total, I think.
MILBANK: I'm counting.
BROWN: Oh, Dana, depressing. OK.
This is interesting. Former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer has quietly made his way back into the media. Tell us about his new job.
MILBANK: Well, this is a very sad story. Just when you think it couldn't get any worse for Spitzer, it gets worse for Spitzer. First, he's caught up in this prostitution scandal and now he sinks even lower. He becomes a journalist. And he's going to be writing a column for the online magazine "Slate."
BROWN: Yes.
MILBANK: Apparently, it's going to be about finance and about regulation which is good. He knows about both things because he was financing his call girls through the shady bank accounts before the regulators caught up with him.
BROWN: Oh, Dana. All right. I knew you'd get one in there.
We -- finally tonight, this is a story that you mentioned to us yesterday, but I know you have new details about exactly where the Bushes plan to live after the White House and I hear it includes special quarters for the Secret Service.
MILBANK: Apparently so. The president is doing his part personally to help with the housing crisis, and he has officially purchased a home. The "Dallas Morning News" says the home suspected to be the future Bush home is valued at a little over $2 million. It's on a little over an acre. Four and a half baths, four bedrooms, fireplace, wet bar, and a whopping 8,500 feet of living space with servant quarters.
Now, a house next door has been sold to a mystery buyer. Presumably, this is going to be for the Secret Service but there's always the chance, of course, that the mystery buyer turns out to be Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson. Wouldn't that be a surprise when Bush got down there to Texas?
BROWN: Yes. Absolutely. Well, looks like a nice ranch house there. If he's not going to the ranch, buy a ranch house in Dallas. What the heck.
Dana Milbank for us tonight. As always, Dana, thanks.
MILBANK: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: Coming up next, the best selling author of "The Purpose Driven Life." Pastor Rick Warren is with us. He wouldn't endorse a candidate during the election. We'll ask him what he thinks of President-elect Barack Obama now, also about his new book.
And then later, the nanny who saved this baby from the Mumbai terrorists tells her story. Our exclusive interview with her coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It was an ongoing debate throughout the presidential campaign, the role of faith in public life. And my next guest, Pastor Rick Warren, was at the heart of that discussion. He is the founding pastor of Saddleback Church in Southern California, one of America's biggest, most influential churches. He's also the author of the best seller "The Purpose Driven Life."
And Pastor Warren's new book is out. It's called "The Purpose of Christmas." And we're going to talk about your new book coming up in just a second. But we had you on the show --
RICK WARREN, PASTOR, SADDLEBACK CHURCH: Hi, Campbell.
BROWN: It's good to see you again.
WARREN: It's nice to see you. I think we talked the last time I was in Buenos Aires in some place.
BROWN: Yes, yes. And you were -- It was before your event where you were going to talk to both candidates.
WARREN: Oh, yes, that's right. It was before the summit we did.
BROWN: You played a huge role in this campaign in many ways.
WARREN: Well, I don't know about that but I did have fun. I'm going to keep my day job. BROWN: Yes.
WARREN: But I enjoyed kind of draw out of people some of the things out of John and Barack that I don't think other people perhaps did.
BROWN: Well, you did. You get a lot of credit for that for asking really unique questions of them...
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: ... and getting them talking about things that they really hadn't before frankly during the campaign.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: But you were very careful, I know, not to take sides...
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: ... in how you talked about McCain or Obama. Now that it's all over, though, give me your take on President-elect Obama and what kind of leader do you think he's going to be?
WARREN: Well, I certainly think we ought to pray for him. The expectations are so sky high I feel sorry for the guy. He's coming right into probably one of the biggest crisis any president coming into office has ever faced with the economic crisis.
It's amazing how organized their transition is. And I really think that as he's putting together a team, it's calming some fears, and it's going to be interesting to see what happens.
BROWN: Before the election, there were so many Christian conservatives who had deep suspicions about him, questions about his patriotism, questions about his faith even. And what's your message to those people as we prepare for his inauguration?
WARREN: Well, and my message is first America has spoken. We're in a democracy and while half of the country no matter who is elected, usually half of them didn't vote for you. So you never really have, you know, everybody behind you. But usually the first incoming president gets a honeymoon for a while, and I think we certainly need to support the president. We need to pray for him and we need to wish him well. I mean, we wish for our country to do well and we want our leader to do well.
BROWN: His form of challenge. I mean, a lot of challenges as you just said.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: But it's fixing the economy.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: The country is in a panic right now.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: People are feeling this in a way we haven't in decades.
WARREN: Yes. Yes.
BROWN: And you think there is a spiritual component here that when it comes to money in many ways, we've lost our way as a country.
WARREN: Yes. Yes, that's right. In fact, a lot of the things that made America great we're not doing anymore economically. The historic Judeo-Christian values of thrift, savings, not spending more than you make, Americans used to save about 18 percent of our income. By the '80s, it had dropped to about four percent.
This last year, Americans spent more than they made so we on average went in the hole. And we're living way beyond our means and as a result the chickens are coming home to roost. Now that's not just in the corporations. It's in families.
I just finished a series at Saddleback where I talked about four major crises that a friend can go through, a divorce, a depression, when a death has happened and debt. And when I did the message on debt, the following week we asked, would you like to come to a workshop on budget management if your mortgage is upside down? We had over 4,000 people show up.
BROWN: Wow.
WARREN: So people are really hurting right now.
BROWN: This may seem like a strange question to ask a pastor, but everybody is talking about it.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: I'm going to ask you, do you think we should be bailing out the auto companies?
WARREN: You know, I don't get into policy on that like that, but I do think that the typical thing is we often swing to extremes.
And, you know, in the '30s, America decided that free market didn't work and so we swung to we're going to trust big government. By the end of the '70s, America had decided big government didn't work and we are going to swing back to free market. Now we're seeing a swing again and my feeling on this is that we move from wealth monopolization, which we've been in the last three or four years, to the other extreme of wealth redistribution. I actually think the middle is wealth creation is where we need to be.
BROWN: Before we take a break, I want to ask you about Sarah Palin, because I know you reached out to her in the campaign. You called her and you said, how can I pray for you?
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: And you know she was a very polarizing figure in this campaign. Do you ultimately think she was a positive force?
WARREN: Well, yes, I do. Actually, I think she was mischaracterized. I honestly feel like she didn't get a fair shake on a lot of things.
A lot of people get mischaracterized. When you meet these people, I mean, the right has characterized people like Hillary Clinton and others. And the left has, you know, characterized Sarah Palin. I happen to know both of them and they're not exactly -- neither of them are what you often get characterized as.
BROWN: Yes, fair point. All right. Stay with us. We're going to take a quick break.
When we come back, I'll ask Pastor Rick Warren for his message to those Americans going through some pretty tough times, especially during this holiday season. We'll talk about that.
And then a little bit later, our exclusive interview with the nanny who saved a little boy from the terrorists who killed his parents in the Mumbai massacre. Her story in her own words is coming up.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Everybody join, five, four, three, two, one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That was the lighting of the national Christmas tree in Washington. That was earlier tonight. A tradition that started in the 1920s.
The tree is a live Colorado blue spruce planted on the Ellipse, south of the White House, 30 years ago. And around this time of year, we hear a lot about peace on earth, goodwill to men but these days it can be, frankly, a pretty tough sell.
And back with me now to talk about that is Pastor Rick Warren. He is the author of "The Purpose of Christmas," his brand new book. And your book talks about Jesus Christ as God's Christmas gift and I just -- I want you to put this in perspective for us because this week we saw this horrible thing happen at Wal-Mart where this crowd of shoppers...
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: ... you know, goes racing into this store trampling a man to death. How far have we gotten from the kind of Christmas message that you're talking about to where we are as a society right now? WARREN: Well, you know, so many people are under stress right now. Financial stress, relational stress. And we come to this time of the year where the expectations are so high.
I'm going to send a card to everybody I know, buy a gift for everybody I know, redecorate my house, go to eight or ten parties. Plus, the economy's crashing and it just makes some people stressed out and makes other people blue. I'm supposed to be happy and I'm not happy.
Suicide goes up often in December. And so, it is true that we've forgotten really why we do this. The angel at the very first Christmas said, "Peace on earth, goodwill toward men."
I don't think peace is ever going to come through politics. I really don't. You can't legislate a guy to stop being a bigot, or you can't legislate a guy to love his neighbor. That has to be on the inside.
And in the book, I talk about three kinds of peace. I talk about peace with God. My war with God ends. The peace of God that gets inside of me and then peace with each other, which is reconciliation.
And I wrote the book really for skeptics, for seekers and for believers. It's a book you can give to a friend, say, you know what? Let's pause for just a minute. Remember why we're doing this.
BROWN: But, I mean, as you say that, I think we have wars in Iraq.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: We have wars in Afghanistan.
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: You look at what just happened in Mumbai with the terrorist attacks...
WARREN: Yes.
BROWN: ... and you see religion, frankly, playing a central role in a lot of the violence that's taking place around the world. I mean, how do we reconcile that with what you're talking about?
WARREN: Well, there's no doubt about it that religion can be a cause for great good and it can be a cause for great evil. It's interesting in the 20th century more people died under secular rule than any other thing. I mean, Mao and Hitler and, you know, communism were actually godless things that killed tens of millions of people. But you're right, it can be for good or bad and it comes back to first building bridges.
It's hard to demonize somebody you know. It's hard to drop a bomb on somebody you know. And part of the problem is we don't really know each other. Even though the world is getting smaller, we're becoming more and more niched and little niches of all over where people listen to their music and don't do anything else and that fragmentation is doing harm to the idea of peace on earth.
BROWN: Well, the book is called "The Purpose of Christmas." It's so great to see you.
WARREN: It's good to see you, Campbell.
BROWN: Wonderful to have you here, Pastor Rick Warren. Thanks.
WARREN: Thank you. Merry Christmas to you.
BROWN: Yes, I got a cold. I got a cold. I don't want to pass it to you. I like you too much.
WARREN: All right. Thanks.
BROWN: It's good to have you here. Thanks.
WARREN: Thank you so much.
BROWN: Coming up, our exclusive interview with the nanny who risked her life to save a 2-year-old from the Mumbai terrorists who killed his parents. And wait until you hear what this dog did in speeding traffic. That story, as well, when we come back.
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BROWN: The word genocide didn't even exist until 1944 when the holocaust horrified the world. In the decades since, millions have died in Bosnia, Rwanda, Cambodia, Iraq and Sudan. And chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour has spent the past year traveling to the killing fields to investigate these crimes. She has a new documentary. It's called "Scream Bloody Murder" and it airs tonight at 9:00 p.m. right here on CNN.
It's good to see you. Good to have you here.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
BROWN: And you talked to people. The people you focus on in many cases are the ones who spoke out, who didn't stand by and do nothing and they're really extraordinary. I mean, what was so moving about them? What was so different about them?
AMANPOUR: Just the fact that they had such moral courage and such courage of their convictions, and they risked their lives to go to those places to bear witness and to come back and tell their governments and the world about what was going on, whether it was in Cambodia, in Iraq, Bosnia, Darfur, Rwanda. And horrifyingly, the common thread is that people either didn't want to believe them or simply didn't want to do -- take any action. So their words often fell on deaf ears but I found these people were the heroes, you know, who really had the moral courage to speak the truth.
And you know, the man who coined the word genocide, Raphael Lemkin, he said that there have been two murders in the holocaust. The murder of people and the murder of truth. And that's what these heroes who we profile were committed to, telling the world the truth.
BROWN: One woman you spoke with in Rwanda in the special whose husband and five children were slaughtered by her neighbors and, yet, she eventually befriends the people who murdered her family.
AMANPOUR: Well, it's extraordinary. It's a process of reconciliation that comes from the top down. The president of Rwanda has made national reconciliation a state policy. As draconian as that might sound, it actually is working.
In courts called Gacaca (ph), which is a community-style local legal process, the victim confronts the perpetrator and the perpetrator agrees to beg forgiveness and to confess to what he had done in front of all his community, his neighbors and everything. And many of these have been in jail for a while. And yet, they come out and they do that and then they move forward.
As extraordinary as it may seem, this victim and the man who killed her family sat down and had lunch together on a Sunday and we were there. And it is extraordinary but it seems to be working.
BROWN: Difficult stories here but incredible stories of hope as you say, as well as part of this.
AMANPOUR: Yes. And I think there is hope because Americans are now sensitized. Look at Darfur, grassroots organization. President- elect Barack Obama has used genocide throughout the campaign as a target to try to end it, and America has to lead, not retreat on this issue.
BROWN: Absolutely. Christiane Amanpour, we will, of course, be watching in just a few moments.
"Scream Bloody Murder" is coming up next, 9:00 Eastern time right here, right after "NO BIAS, NO BULL."
And you expect a nanny to care for your child but no one could have expected this. The nanny who stared down armed terrorists to save a 2-year-old from the Mumbai massacre. She's telling her story in our exclusive interview. That's coming up next.
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BROWN: Sandra Samuel doesn't look like a hero and yet that is precisely what she is. She is the nanny who saved a 2-year-old boy from Islamic terrorists who attacked a Jewish center during the massacre in Mumbai last week. And CNN's Paula Hancocks has her story in her own words for the very first time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what 2-year-olds do. Toddler works of art. Only Moshe is drawing with his nanny. His mother and his father, a rabbi, are now gone. Murdered in Mumbai. His nanny saved his life.
SANDRA SAMUEL, NANNY WHO SAVED 2-YEAR-OLD BOY: For two, three days he asked for his ima (mother) continuously. And because she used to always give some special time to him.
HANCOCK: But this is a story of why Moshe survived. It's the story of his nanny's stunning heroism. Her name is Sandra Samuel.
That night, Moshe and his parents, the Holtzbergs, and Sandra heard the shooting. They knew something terrible was happening when the terrorists burst in to Chabad House, the Jewish community center where they were living.
SAMUEL: I was in the kitchen. I came running to in order to stop them. And I see that one man is shooting at me. He shot at me.
HANCOCKS: Sandra locked herself in the storeroom.
SAMUEL: I have dreams, nightmares actually, about it. Me just sitting between the fridge and another worker will be sitting near the fridge, and we want to do something but we can't do anything. We go to the window and as we come out there's a big bomb. The glass has been shattered everywhere.
HANCOCKS: But the siege went on. Twelve hours passed. When Sandra heard the baby calling her name, she didn't hesitate to unlock the door to risk her life to save his.
SAMUEL: I don't think of fear. Does anybody think of dying at that moment when a small precious baby's -- no. But then when I saw my rabbi and his wife, I thought today even I'm thinking that I should have sent the baby and, you know, done something for the rabbi and his wife.
HANCOCKS: Sandra believes the small boy's parents were still alive. When she grabbed Moshe, he was standing between his parents crying. She says she saw just one gunshot wound in the rabbi's leg.
So now the little boy is chasing balloons. Everyone trying to make his life normal or at least as normal as it could possibly be. But he is weary, always checking his nanny is close by.
They're playing in a garden. It belongs to Rabbi Yitzchak David Grossman who has spent four decades looking after orphans in Israel. Moshe is his own great nephew, also now an orphan. But he has dozens of relatives willing to make him a new home and the Chabad movement setting up a fund for his future.
RABBI DAVID GROSSMAN, PRESIDENT, MIGDAL OHR: Everybody thanks Sandra because she serves. She gives the life to save Moshe. She knows that she can be killed and she going (ph) and take him out. HANCOCKS: Sandra says she will not leave the boy. She promises to take care of him as long as he needs her. But now, not thinking of herself.
And how are you coping now?
SAMUEL: Me? Baby's there, Sandra is there. That's it.
HANCOCKS: Paula Hancocks, CNN, northern Israel.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And stay with us for tonight's "Bull's-Eye." For now, I'm only going to tell you it's about a dog but you're not going to want to miss this. It is going to leave you full of wonder. We will explain.
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BROWN: OK. To my cynical and jaded colleagues here on the program who think I can't award a "Bull's-Eye" to a dog, watch this.
Dogs think like we do or feel or don't think like we do or feel, so they cannot consciously set out to do a good thing? Watch. Watch this and tell us if you think this nameless good Samaritan of a dog on a highway in Santiago, Chile, doesn't absolutely deserve the "Bull's- Eye" tonight.
Now, look, the dog you see first, also nameless, lying in the highway obviously hurt in a highway having been hit by a car. The other dog goes out, drags it to safety through traffic. I mean, it's unbelievable. Drags this other puppy all the way to the other side of the road out of the way and to safety.
A heck of a conclusion to jump to here but I do say, again, to my cynical colleagues, there may be more goodness in the world than we might think. Just look at that puppy.
That is it from us tonight. Have a good night.
A CNN special "Scream Bloody Murder" starts right now.
