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Campbell Brown
14 Dead in New York Shooting Rampage; President Obama Winning World Over?; President Obama Slams U.S. for Arrogance; Government Gives Drugs to Addicts in Secret Experiments?
Aired April 03, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, folks. Thanks for joining us.
Dozens of families are relieved tonight, and others are mourning, as a city in New York State has been rocked by the mass killing of 13 innocent people, before the apparent killer turned a gun on himself. We're following the breaking news of this horrendous shooting spree in Binghamton, New York from all angles.
And we're getting new information tonight about the man who used a car to block his victims from any chance of escape by trapping them inside an immigration center, as he methodically shot victim after victim after victim -- 26 of the 37 survivors hid in the basement, the boiler room, unsure if they would get out dead or alive.
We all have so many questions about what led to such hatred and evil. And we're going to start near the killing scene. Binghamton is a city of 45,000 in south central New York State, near the Pennsylvania state line.
Our national correspondent, Susan Candiotti, joins us live.
And, Susan, you have been working your sources all day. What's the latest?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Roland, the latest is what we're trying to find out about the suspected shooter in this case.
A law enforcement source, federal law enforcement source has identified him as Jiverly Voong. Now, we understand he is in his early 40s. And not long ago, within the hour, representative of law enforcement agencies, as well as local and state police, executed a search warrant at his home, where according to a source he lived with his mother in Johnson City, which is not far from Binghamton.
I am told that initially they have not found anything of particular interest in that house. However, earlier, sources tell us they did seize two weapons from the shooting scene, one a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun, as well as a .9-millimeter weapon, again semiautomatic. And both, according to a source, were registered to Voong with the New York State Police. He had a permit for them, in other words.
So, at this hour, the town is mourning this. There is a vigil going on as we speak at a Lutheran Church just down the street from where I am standing. Inside, we heard them inside offering prayers for those who died and for the families of those two survived. It is a candlelight vigil service, as this community begins to heal.
MARTIN: Now, Susan, we haven't really heard from any of the hostages. And a lot of folks really have not been talking, but you did manage to talk to one woman who was in the center at the time of the shooting.
CANDIOTTI: Yes, one of our producers was able to speak with her not long after she was released.
This was a woman who was working inside the civic center and she was able to hide, take shelter and escape unharmed. Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZHANAR TOKHTABAYEBA, WITNESS ... very long time, about five minutes. And I was thinking, when will it be stopped? But it was continue, no cream and yelling, no (INAUDIBLE) just silence, shooting, silence, shooting, silence. I was just hiding and was -- I was thought -- I thought that my...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CANDIOTTI: Roland, another interesting thing to note, the suspected shooter according to authorities had parked his car at the exit to the building and entered through the front. Now was he trying to prevent people from leaving in the back? That is not clear. What is also not clear is why this happened -- back to you.
MARTIN: Susan, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot. And we will check with you later for an update.
Now, folks for just over four terrifying hours, police and everyone else tried to learn just how much carnage was waiting inside, how many were dead, who could be saved, and the question everyone still wants answered, why?
We watched it all unfold before our very eyes.
And Randi Kaye is here now to take us through this day of terror.
Now, Randi, we have heard all kinds of different numbers. How many folks ended up dying on this tragic day?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At this point, the very latest, we're looking at a number of 14, including -- that would be including the gunman.
But here's how it all unfolded, 10:31 a.m. in the heart of Binghamton in Upstate New York, the unthinkable. A man opens fire at the American Civic Association while a class for citizenship is under way. A woman calls 911 saying she was shot, police on the scene in less than two minutes -- 10:30 to 11:30 a.m., hostage negotiators worked the scene. So does the FBI and SWAT sharp shooters. They surround the building with their rifles poised. Neighboring schools go into lockdown. Apartments and businesses nearby are evacuated.
Next, 11:30 a.m., hostages are released, about 15 people, mostly women, in tears, we're told -- 1:00, two people taken from the American Civic Association with their hands cuffed behind their backs, they turn out not to be suspects -- 2:40 in the afternoon, Governor Paterson announces 12 or 13 are dead. And 3:00 we learn the gunman is dead. Police say the Asian man in his early 40s took his own life with a single gunshot to the head -- Roland.
MARTIN: And, also, we also have finally found out the name of this killer, because for so long, the police, they were unsure in terms of releasing his name.
KAYE: Right. We did learn that his name is Jiverly Voong. He's a local man in his early 40s.
We do know also that police are on the scene. He lived in Johnson City, which is right near Binghamton. And police are on the scene, investigators are on the scene at his house. They have a search warrant that they filed. They also spoke with someone there who answered the phone and identified herself as this man's mother.
So, we will have to wait and see exactly what they find at this house.
MARTIN: All right, Randi, thanks a lot for those details. We appreciate it.
Now, folks, one of the eyewitnesses, he joins us right now on the phone. And he's Richard Griffis.
Richard?
RICHARD GRIFFIS, EYEWITNESS: Hi.
MARTIN: How you doing?
Now, first of all, you saw of this unfold from your business across the street. Now, tell me, what did you see as the day progressed?
GRIFFIS: Our first indication of anything that was out of the ordinary was just a few minutes after 10:30, when police began to arrive at the scene and they began to unload their cars and take out automatic weapons and other gunfire to surround the building.
And we saw as they surrounded the building and they indicated there were some people that were toward the front of our building and they were evacuating them, moving them out, telling us to stay in the building, to move to the back of the building, stay away from the windows. And they set up a perimeter around the building.
MARTIN: Now, Richard, now, Richard, did you hear the shooting take place? So, did you know why the cops were there?
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIS: We could not hear the shooting. The building that it is in is a pretty sound structure, so it was difficult for us to hear that.
MARTIN: So, all of a sudden, you see these cops arriving and they're surrounding the building. What are you thinking as you're watching this happen?
GRIFFIS: Well, we're thinking that there's some sort of -- maybe some sort of dispute over there, somebody is upset about something, there's some sort of problem.
But then it became obvious that it was more than just a disagreement, that there must have been some sort of gun involved because of the way that they were surrounding the building.
MARTIN: Now, tell me about the American Civic Association. What normally happens there. You're right across the street, so you see folks coming and going.
What happens there?
GRIFFIS: Well, they are an organization that is designed to help people that are new to the country, people that are seeking to gain citizenship.
They have classes to help train people for that. They have classes for English as a second language, just generally a good organization, designed to help people new to the country be acclimated.
MARTIN: Is it a very large immigrant population there of folks who are looking to become U.S. citizens? We're trying to get a sense of this town of some 45,000 folks.
GRIFFIS: Yes, this town actually has been -- for close to 100 years has been founded by immigrants, early immigrants coming over from Europe and then more recently immigrants from Southeast Asia, from Russia and the other Soviet countries.
It's kind of a melting pot of people, a lot of different ethnic backgrounds, a lot of cultural and ethnic churches, et cetera, in here. So it's a center where a lot of different kinds of people from different countries do come.
MARTIN: I mean, surely, with a town this size, folks are reeling from this. And so can you give us a sense of what relatives and friends and others in Binghamton are saying tonight? What are they saying? What are they feeling? What are they expressing?
GRIFFIS: Well, we of course all see things happen on the news and think that we live in a safe and quiet community and nothing like that certainly would ever happen here, so everyone is shocked and amazed and still trying to grasp the whole import of it.
MARTIN: Well, Richard, we certainly appreciate it. And as Vice President Joe Biden said today, our prayers are certainly with you and the folks in Binghamton.
Thanks a bunch.
GRIFFIS: Thank you.
MARTIN: Folks, we have much more to tell you about the people who survived this massacre, as well as the gunman himself.
And, later, the president's and first lady's a European trip moves to France and a meeting with another first family that has some star power.
Also, the president at a town hall, European-style. Is he winning over the world by speaking out against what he calls U.S. arrogance?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: We're back with today's breaking news, 14 people shot dead at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York. The gunman is among the dead. And he killed himself after the rampage.
We're joined now by the mayor of Binghamton, Matthew Ryan, as well as Police Joseph Zikuski. And they're sharing the mike there. So, we will be going back and forth.
I want to start with you, Joseph.
You have already named the gunman. You already know his name, Jiverly Voong. Have you talked to his family, gotten a sense of what was going on any note left? Why did he do this?
JOSEPH ZIKUSKI, BINGHAMTON POLICE CHIEF: Well, we're still in the process of speaking with his parents and his sister.
We understand that he recently was terminated from a job. He didn't speak English very well and was basically just depressing people that he knew were looking down upon him.
MARTIN: Was he a U.S. citizen or was he going to this center to be able to become a U.S. citizen? What was the relationship with the Civic Association?
ZIKUSKI: I do not know at this time. INS is here to assist us and we don't have that information at this time yet.
MARTIN: First of all, if you could pass the microphone to the mayor, please, I want to ask him a question.
Mayor, obviously, this is devastating news for your town. And so how have you been able to assist in the healing process, in terms of grief counselors? Give us a sense of the healing process in Binghamton tonight.
MATTHEW RYAN, MAYOR OF BINGHAMTON, NEW YORK: Well, first of all, we're concerned with the victims' families and friends.
And we have set up the Red Cross, working with those individuals and we will work very closely with them. Both the state and federal governments have said they will assist us in any way if we need any additional help in that area.
But certainly already churches around our city are having vigils. Tomorrow we're going to plan a big vigil for our city. This is a city that really comes together in time of crisis. It's a very friendly city, an open city.
And that's one of the reasons why we have so many -- such a big immigrant population. But this city will really rally and heal together during this time of a real tragedy.
MARTIN: Mayor, we talked to a witness who works across the street and he actually talked about this immigrant population in Binghamton and he said that it is extremely diverse. But this Civic Association, how prominent of a role has it had in the city in terms of being able to help people gain entry to become U.S. citizens?
RYAN: This is truly a great organization. And they help so many people attain their citizenship, get proper job training and learn skills and just celebrate the diversity that we have in this city. So, they are a multipurpose organization that really helps a lot of people.
MARTIN: Mayor, if I could ask a question of Chief Joseph there.
Chief Joseph, did Jiverly Voong have any kind of history? Had he been on your radar before, any kind of past criminal behavior, anything along those lines?
ZIKUSKI: Well, not in the past several years.
We understand there was some incident outside the state that we're still looking into. Any activity within Broome County, New York, we understand the New York State Police in 1999 got some information on him possibly going to be planning some criminal activity. That never took place, never planned out.
So, since 1999, the local authorities here, as far as we can tell up to this point, have had no contact with him.
MARTIN: I know you're investigating what took place, but any evidence that he was targeting any specific people as he methodically went down the hallways shooting victim after victim?
ZIKUSKI: Well, let me just correct you.
MARTIN: OK.
ZIKUSKI: All the victims, other than the people at the door, the receptionist, the other 13 victims, were in a room, in one room, right inside the door. So...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Was it a classroom? Were they employees or...
ZIKUSKI: Yes, it was. It was a classroom and the people there were there at a class, an English class, we believe.
MARTIN: OK.
Well, Chief, we certainly appreciate it.
Mayor, we appreciate it as well.
And so I know it's a very difficult time and we will certainly be checking back with you on the details as we follow this story. We certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
ZIKUSKI: OK. Thank you.
MARTIN: Folks, the president and Mrs. Obama heard about the news while overseas in France for the NATO summit.
And they issued this statement -- quote -- "Michelle and I were shocked and deeply saddened to learn about the act of senseless violence in Binghamton, New York, today. Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims, their families and the people of Binghamton."
And also Vice President Joe Biden broke the news to a stunned crowd at a speaking engagement in New York City today, the conference of Reverend Al Sharpton, National Action Network. And some of the details have changed since the vice president spoke. Listen for the crowd's gasp.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In Binghamton, someone entered a rec center where an examination was being given for -- for Americans -- excuse me -- immigrants to become Americans taking their exam, walked in through the back door and allegedly shot and killed up to 12 or 13 people.
(AUDIENCE GASPS)
BIDEN: And I don't have any more details, except I would ask you to keep all those folks in your prayers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Again, folks, that happened around mid-afternoon, before we learned all the details of the incident and the death toll, which is 14, including the gunman.
There were dozens of survivors inside as the tense four-hour drama unfolded. Hostage negotiators were called to the scene. We will have more on that ahead. Also, did President Obama DIS America today while speaking overseas? Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There have been times where America's showed arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: He didn't stop there, folks. Wait until you hear what he accused Europeans of feeling to the U.S.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, our breaking news coverage continues tonight, a shooting rampage at an immigration center in Binghamton, New York. That's about 140 miles northwest of New York City. Tonight, 14 people are dead. Police briefed reporters just a few moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZIKUSKI: Among the dead, there's a male victim that has a satchel around his neck or arms, and there was ammunition in there. Our original information, that the shooter was using handguns, and we did recover two handguns at the scene. So, at this point, not 100 percent, but we have very good reason that the shooter is among the dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: CNN has identified that gunman as Jiverly Voong. Police say he barricaded the backdoor with a car to keep his victims inside.
The FBI hostage negotiators were called to the scene.
And we're joined now by Chris Voss. And he handled cases like this all over the world for the FBI.
Now, Chris, you heard the chief of police. The shooter had two guns and apparently a satchel full of ammo around his neck. They also believed he backed his car up to the rear of the building. We also have an I-Report photo showing that actual car. You can see it in just a moment right there.
Does that indicate some degree of premeditation on the part of the shooter?
CHRIS VOSS, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: Yes, there's a tremendous amount of planning that was involved in this killing journey by the shooter.
He probably had been thinking about it for quite a long time, so, a tremendous amount of premeditation there. MARTIN: Now, police say the shooter walked in the door and just started shooting, just at random. All the shots were fired before the police even got there, and the police -- we just heard the police chief say the receptionist and folks who were sitting in a classroom just to the side.
Now, with that being the case, is there anything they could have done to actually change what took place?
VOSS: Well, once a shooter like this has arrived at his destination, at the destination for the killing journey, there's very little that can deter them, other than a tactical intervention.
Negotiators have a much better opportunity if they even stop him outside, if they got the opportunity a block away. But when they're there, it's very difficult to stop them. They have thought it through and they're going to perform.
MARTIN: Now, Chris, the investigation is already under way.
Now, what are police looking for? And what do you think they're likely to find as they move forward with this investigation? Also, this is the house in Johnson City of the suspect.
VOSS: Well, they're looking for the triggers. There's already been one mentioned, that he probably had a recent job loss.
And wherever he came from, his loss of identity, his loss of self, there's probably other losses besides a job loss as well. Sometimes, these sorts of things are referred to as a double whammy, when there are several major losses in someone's life like this. And it may just be enough to kick him into a complete psychological tailspin.
MARTIN: All right, Chris, we certainly appreciate your insight on this. Thank you so very much.
Folks, there's the human cost, 14 lives lost. Then there's the emotional toll. To experience carnage like this firsthand is something that stays with you for a long, long time. And then, of course, there's the trauma felt by the entire Binghamton community.
Joining me now, Dr. Gail Saltz. She is a psychiatrist at New York Presbyterian Hospital.
Now, Doctor, look, a lone gunman here walks into a community center -- folks are defenseless -- kills so many different people. This has to just hurt a small town like this. What do you advise the folks there to do?
DR. GAIL SALTZ, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, THE NEW YORK PRESBYTERIAN HOSPITAL AT WEILL-CORNELL SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: This is a huge trauma.
Fortunately, it's incredibly rare, but it does take a huge toll on a community. The people that are in closest proximity, those people who were in the building, family members of the people who were killed, anybody involved with this center or the community in some way, they are at greater risk.
And they should be watched. They need support. They need people to talk to, and, frankly, coming together, as they're already starting to do, as a community, support one another, and to be on the lookout for anybody who's frankly failing, who's not able to hold up under the stressful circumstances.
MARTIN: We heard the police chief say that this man lost his job recently. And, so, put us if you can in the mind of the shooter. Why would someone do this? Why would someone just kill so many folks and snap?
(CROSSTALK)
SALTZ: Usually, as the person said before, it's not a snapping. It's been percolating for some time.
Most mass murderers are frankly loners. They are people who have often had some violence or some trauma in their past. They're often involved with alcohol and drugs. They're often depressed. And it takes a trigger, for instance, a job loss, that makes them feel potentially enraged and very humiliated and out of control.
And, so, to gain control, to gain power, they concoct this idea that their life isn't worth living, they're going to go out, but, in the process, they're going to gain infamy, and they're going to control everybody else and gain power by being a shooter.
And so one important thing for us to keep in mind is, what we need to do as media and as a community is not glorify this shooter.
MARTIN: Right. Great point. Great point.
SALTZ: because anyone out there who's thinking about this, that's what they're looking for. We need to glorify the victims.
MARTIN: About 20 seconds.
Obviously, 14 folks killed here, a lot of violence all across America. What do you tell someone who has gone through this, lived through this, lives in a neighborhood where they see it all the time, what they have to do to deal with it?
SALTZ: I want people to think about the fact that there are a huge number of people losing jobs right now, making a lot of people feel disenfranchised, alone and depressed.
MARTIN: Right.
SALTZ: Look out for your neighbor. If your neighbor is talking in an angry way, a violent way, if they look depressed, if they look disheveled, if they're not sleeping, take them to an emergency room.
If anybody makes a noise about their life isn't worth living or they're thinking about hurting somebody else -- and, usually, these shooters, by the way, do -- then speak up. Contact the authorities. Get help.
MARTIN: Great advice.
Dr. Gail Saltz, thank you so very much. We appreciate it.
Now, folks, we're going to switch gears to talk about free drugs for addicts. Who's doing this? The federal government. Who's paying for it? You. The full story ahead.
And you have been sounding off about Madonna. And we have been listening. Here's a caller from California.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TENISHA, CALIFORNIA: And I think it's great that Madonna is willing to adopt a child from Africa. Being an African-American myself, I think it's awesome that she's going back to our home country. She's doing something that's positive, taking these children out of poverty, instead of being like the octomom, and actually putting children into poverty.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: We want to hear from you. Tell us what is on your mind. Call us at 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550.
You can also e-mail me and Tweet me, Facebook me as well right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, it's not always about us talking to you. We also want you to talk to us. So, give us a call to talk about what is on your mind at 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Or you can e- mail here at Roland@CNN.com.
Now to Gary Tuchman with the briefing -- Gary.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Roland.
The overall jobless rate in this country is at a 25-year high. Unemployment soared to 8.5 percent, with 663,000 jobs lost in March. The Labor Department says 13 million Americans are now out of work.
Iowa's Supreme Court today made it legal for same-sex couples to marry. Iowa is the third state, after Massachusetts and Connecticut, to legalize same-sex marriages. The decision takes effect in 21 days and can only be overturned by a state constitutional amendment.
Actress Demi Moore received an online tweet today from a woman threatening suicide. Moore, who is in France with her husband, Ashton Kutcher, quickly replied to the threat, saying -- quote -- "I hope you are joking."
Other Twitters reported the threat to police, who took the woman into custody for a psychological evaluation.
And Madonna is appealing a Malawi judge's ruling that she cannot adopt another child there. The pop star wants to adopt a 3-year-old girl. She already has an adopted son who is also from that African country.
And, Roland, the judge who ruled against also said to Madonna that he admired the work she's done, the charitable work, in Malawi. But I don't think that's exactly the good news she wanted to hear.
MARTIN: I don't think so.
Gary, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Folks, President Obama faced a lot of questions in his town hall today in France, but there's just one question that he just can't seem to avoid, no matter where he goes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Do you think that the economic crisis is an opportunity to restructure our industries in an ecological and sustainable way? And I also was wondering whether the dog was already in the White House or not.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: We will tell you what he said in a minute.
And later tonight, Larry King has got Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey on the subject of autism, as well as a panel of doctors answering your questions. That's at 9:00 Eastern.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Well, we all know President Barack Obama loves doing town hall meetings in the United States. So while in France, why not do them there.
He addressed more than 3,500 people there and there was plenty more on today's agenda including the face-to-face meeting for the first couples of France and the U.S. Our own Anderson Cooper is in London to break it all down for us -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC 360": You know, Roland, it was fascinating to see the president in this sort of campaign style town hall meeting but not in the United States, in Strasbourg, France, in front of an audience mostly of students and clearly his reception, well, you can hear for yourself. He was received very well indeed.
It was interesting, though. He really had a double-sided message for this audience. On the one hand he said, America has been arrogant in the past, particularly talking about the recent past, but he said that there's been also too much anti-Americanism among Europeans. He said America is changing, but that Europe has to change as well. But I think probably most striking for a lot of people, at least in the crowd was the level of intimacy and sort of personality that the president showed in his interaction with some of the questioners. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all I wanted to tell you that your name in Hungarian means peach if you --
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Peach?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
OBAMA: Oh, OK. Well, how about that. I did not know that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Now, you know it. And we wanted to know if you -- did you ever regret to have run for presidency, until now? I mean, well, did you ever ask yourself am I sure to manage? Yes.
OBAMA: Yes, that's a good question. Michelle definitely asked that question. You know, there have been times certainly during the campaign and there have been times over the last several months where you feel a lot of weight on your shoulders. There's no doubt about it.
It's very frustrating now. You know, it used to be when I came to Europe, that I could just wander down to a cafe and sit and have some wine and watch people go by and, you know, go into a little shop and watch the sun go down. Now, I'm in hotel rooms all the time. And I have security around me all the time. And so just, you know, losing that ability to just take a walk, you know, that is something that is frustrating. But having said all that, I truly believe that there's nothing more noble than public service.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Yes, Anderson, he did some really good hotels too now.
Now, also, a whole lot of buzz about what would happen in this meeting between the president of France and the United States, President Barack Obama. So, how did this big meeting go?
COOPER: Certainly there was the photo-op side of it which seemed to go, you know, very well. There was no gaffe or anything like that and certainly the French president was effusive in his praise of President Obama. All that talk remember about President Sarkozy, talked about walking out of the G-20. He didn't walk out, and he certainly seems to enjoy the company of this president. He went out of his way to talk about that.
But, you know, what happens behind closed doors is really what's most interesting here. What the United States wants, what this president wants is a greater commitment of troops, European troops, NATO troops in Afghanistan.
The United States has increased its troop strength by some 21,000 under President Obama. They're looking for the Europeans to step up as well, and that is something European leaders and the French president is unwilling to do at this point, though publicly, France's president has said he's in full agreement with President Obama's review of the policy in Afghanistan and wants to send a couple of hundred police officers to help the Afghan police. But what the U.S. wants is more French troops, more German troops, and a change in the way those troops can be deployed and so far that's not happening.
MARTIN: All right. Anderson, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
And folks, Anderson Cooper will be back at 10:00 p.m. Eastern with "AC 360". And later, don't miss a "360" special report, "President Obama and the New World Promise," that's tonight at 11:00 Eastern.
As Anderson mentioned, President Obama told the crowd at his town hall meeting that sometimes America has been arrogant. Well, we've already heard from a lot of you folks at home about that. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CELIA, ARKANSAS: I firmly believe that Americans are arrogant. We are the only culture that goes into other countries and expect them to speak our language and do as we should. This must change and I commend our president for having the guts to say it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Strong comments by the caller. We want to hear what you think. Call me at 1-877-no-bull-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e-mail me, roland@cnn.com or post on my twitter and Facebook accounts.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Every night this week I've made it clear that I like to keep it real and offer straight talk. And so I appreciate the fact that the president also believes in that. Listen to what he said in his town mall meeting today in France.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive. But in Europe there is an anti-Americanism that is at once casual but can also be insidious.
Instead of recognizing the good that America so often does in the world, there have been times where Europeans choose to blame America for much of what's bad. On both sides of the Atlantic, these attitudes have become all too common. They are not wise. They do not represent the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: For years, I have been saying whether as a Democrat or a Republican in the White House, that Americans have a tendency to turn out sometimes its arrogance. Sure, with the big dog in the world stage, that doesn't mean that we always have to steam roll everyone else with no regard to how they feel. That's what I took away from President Obama's comments today.
Let's see if my next two guests agree. Joan Walsh, she is editor in chief for salon.com, and Cliff May of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
So, Cliff, cut to the chase. What's the big deal what the president said?
CLIFF MAY, FDN. FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: It's not a big deal, Roland, but I think it was ill-advised. I think the president would have been better off saying let's have a new start and not criticizing America while standing there on foreign soil. He is the ambassador in chief among other things, and it's unseemly. I don't think it does a lot of good.
I also wish, Roland, that he hadn't particularly used the word "arrogance" about us. And the reason is, if you recall after 9/11, Osama bin Laden sent a letter to America in which he said we had attacked you and will attack you again because Muslims hate America for their arrogance. So in a sense he's pleading guilty to Osama bin Laden's charge. Maybe he didn't remember that, maybe he didn't think of that but he should have been --
MARTIN: Oh, come on, Cliff.
MARTIN: He should have been advised about that.
MARTIN: All right, Joan. Come on now. I mean, look, the bottom line is, we heard all the criticism when it came to old Europe, the stuff from Donald Rumsfeld, or from Dick Cheney or the president. So, come on now, he was cutting right to the chase, wasn't he?
JOAN WALSH, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, SALON.COM: He cut right to the chase. This is our president, Roland. This is the man we elected, and he's doing exactly what we elected to do.
I would say to Cliff, if we're going to let Osama bin Laden determine the words our president can or can't use, the terrorists have really won. Now, you've got to be really, really cognizant about what Obama said, where he said it, and why he said it. And you got to take both halves.
I might not be as comfortable with it as I am had he not gone right into that crowd of young Europeans, exactly where some of the reflexive anti-Americanism can be and said, don't do this, this is unwise, your attitudes play a role in our strife.
So you're exactly right, "Uncle cranky pants," Donald Rumsfeld, derided them as old Europe. They didn't like it. That wasn't smart diplomacy. And so I think it's the only way to have a new start in my opinion.
MARTIN: Hey, Cliff, of course, he did -- I mean, he did have some tough words for the Europeans as well now.
MAY: Well, he had some tough words for them and I commend him for that. He said anti-Americanism has become fashionable and that it's insidious. I think that's true.
MARTIN: And they also don't appreciate what we do.
WALSH: That's right.
MAY: That's right. Exactly right. I mean, listen, he was also overly flattering saying Americans fail to appreciate Europe's leadership role. Europe's leadership role where? Not in Bosnia certainly, not when Kuwait was overrun by Saddam Hussein, not in Afghanistan.
I mean, Europe has not had a leadership role in a very long time. It's kind of ridden on the wagon, rather than push the wagon. But look, I understand if they like him better and he gets something out of this. Terrific. So far, we haven't seen that, not in terms of Afghanistan.
MARTIN: Right.
MAY: Not in terms of the economy, not in terms of Russia. So if it works, I'll say great, flatter them and then denigrate ourselves. But if it doesn't work, well, what's the point of criticizing America overseas.
MARTIN: But Joan --
WALSH: I think it's a beginning.
MARTIN: Joan, Joan, real quick. Here's the reality. We also need Russia, need France, need Germany when it comes to dealing with Iran...
WALSH: Exactly.
MARTIN: ... dealing with other issues. And so look, we have to recognize we got to work with them.
WALSH: North Korea said --
Absolutely. We need them, they need us. Iran, North Korea, Iraq, as we pull out, we're going to need reconstruction money. We're going to need people on the ground, even if it's not troops.
MARTIN: Right. WALSH: Same in Afghanistan. And I think it was some kind of victory that Sarkozy was, you know, who threatened to walk out of the G-20 meeting and was really strutting around, came around. I think it's the beginning of a much better relationship when they need each other.
MARTIN: All right. Real quick, real quick.
MAY: I'll be real quick. If keeping Sarkozy from storming out is a victory, we've set the bar pretty low at this point.
MARTIN: All right. Cliff May, Joan Walsh, always a pleasure, we'll be sure to have you back. Thank you so very much.
MAY: Thank you, Roland.
WALSH: Thank you, Roland.
MARTIN: Well, we've got an outrageous story for you tonight. It's hard to believe how our government is actually providing illegal drugs to addicts as part of a secret drug experiment. It's a story you won't want to miss.
And we're on the scene of the Binghamton shooting today. We've got all the latest details for you, so stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Every reporter from the "Washington Examiner" this morning doing my segment on the "Tom Joyner Morning Show" who broke the story had simply left me stunned.
Bill Maher has reported if the federal government says the (INAUDIBLE) has been engaged in providing drugs, crack, powder cocaine, morphine to drug users so we could study them. Outrageous or important scientific work? Abbie Boudreau of our special investigations unit has been learning more about the astounding details.
And Abbie, tell us what you've learned.
ABBIE BOUDREAU, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT: Well, Roland, here's what I know.
This is a government sponsored program that's been around for about 17 years or so. Most of the studies have been funded by taxpayers through the National Institute on Drug Abuse. A spokeswoman there says the goal of the program is to come up with treatments or vaccines to cure addiction, but earlier today I spoke to the former drug czar from the Bush administration who calls this program completely unethical. He says that it takes advantage of already vulnerable people. Here's what he -- here's what else he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN WALTERS, FORMER DRUG POLICY DIRECTOR: It's the one piece of business that when I left government I thought was a burden on my conscience. I think it's wrong given what I learned about substance abuse and our ability to treat it to leave people sick and say that we're doing this simply for the greater good. I don't think that's the way you conduct ethical research.
I did not understand that we were undertaking research keeping people addicted and giving them the drugs they're addicted to for things not related to giving them treatment, even going back that far. And I don't think -- I believe that most Americans when they hear this are going to ask questions about its morality, the answer effectively. It would be troubling I think to the average citizen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Abbie, help me out here, I'm sorry. Is he saying that after these folks went through this program, they didn't get any drug treatment?
BOUDREAU: Well, that's what he says, but I talked to that spokesperson from the National Institute on Drug Abuse and she says the exact opposite. She tells me that addicts are never just turned away like he might have suggested and that they're always offered some sort of help and that's part of the protocol.
Also just so you know, right now there are about 2,000 taxpayer supported research projects related to these drugs. Most of them are at major universities. Only 14 of them are these clinical trials we're talking about involving drug addicts. We asked if there was a precise number of addicts using these studies, but they weren't able to give us. They said that the average range is from about 10 to 80 per trial.
MARTIN: All right. Abbie, I certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
Folks, let me bring in Dr. Bertha Madras, professor at the Harvard Medical School. She worked with then drug policy director, John Walters, during the final years of the Bush administration and she supports this program.
Dr. Madras, this is shocking. How could the federal government give drugs to drug addicts for testing purposes? I mean, how is that not ethically wrong?
DR. BERTHA MADRAS, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Of course, it's an ethical issue but it is ethically appropriate for the following reasons.
We know these are vulnerable populations, but, there are 22 additional regulations that govern these drug studies on top of the normal regulations governing all drug studies on human subjects. And the reason is because the National Advisory Council on Drug Abuse took more than a year to make sure that this population was protected.
What is the purpose of these studies? The purpose of these studies is not just curiosity. The purpose of these studies is to provide medications to help these people get treatment.
MARTIN: No, doctor.
MADRAS: We have medications for heroin. We have medications for alcohol addiction, for nicotine addiction. Why should we not have them for cocaine addiction as well?
MARTIN: Dr. Madras, one of the things we've been told is that well, the folks signed consent forms. They're drug addicts. If you're sitting here saying we're going to give you free drugs, aren't they likely going to sign?
MADRAS: They are drug addicts, they are likely to sign, but the purpose of the signature, the purpose of engaging in this project is to get medications developed so that they can get them off.
Let's look at methadone for heroin addicts. Methadone reduces HIV AIDS. Methadone reduces the death rates of heroin addicts by 70 percent. Methadone reduces their -- increases their ability to go to work. Methadone reduces their euphoria due to heroin. Methadone has worked and people who don't have methadone, the vast majority of them fail in treatment at least one or two or more times.
MARTIN: So, doctor, basically --
MADRAS: Whereas with medication's assistance, they can get better.
MARTIN: OK.
MADRAS: And the purpose of these studies is to develop medications to help them. It is not to ignore them. It is not curiosity.
MARTIN: OK. So, doc, basically we're saying that it's OK for us to go ahead and use folks who are crack addicts or cocaine addicts for the benefit of the greater good? I mean, that's what we're actually using it for, right?
MADRAS: It's the benefit of them. It's not the greater good. If you say that, do you think that we shouldn't do these kinds of studies on alcoholics? Should we not do this on nicotine addicts?
MARTIN: OK.
MADRAS: Should we not do this on heroin addicts? We already have. They all have a brain disease.
MARTIN: All right.
MADRAS: And they've developed effective medications.
MARTIN: Doctor --
MADRAS: And these studies are not secret, sir.
MARTIN: Well, doctor --
MADRAS: These studies are on the National Institute of Health's database.
MARTIN: I understand. Well, I understand they're out there. But again, a lot of folks say, look, they weren't aware of it.
But I certainly appreciate it, Dr. Bertha Madras. Thank you for providing the information to us. We certainly appreciate it.
Folks, at the top of the hour, Larry King has got Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey on the subject and autism, and a panel of doctors answering your questions. That's at 9:00 Eastern. Your calls and comments coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Hey, folks, I love this part of the show where it's "Your Turn, Your Voice" and comments. So let's go right to the phone lines.
We've got Michael calling from Georgia about the president's trip. Hey, Michael.
MICHAEL, GEORGIA: Hey, Roland. Hey, Roland.
I just wanted to say if I were advising the president I would advise him to stick to being president of the United States. It sometimes appears that he is running to president of the world. For example, the message to the Muslim world, videos to Iran.
MARTIN: OK.
MICHAEL: Town hall in France, all of which directly addressed and counseled the citizens of those nations about their attitudes and their behavior.
MARTIN: All right.
MICHAEL: Those people have leaders. Just pump up the United States and let them know that we are committed to change and ask them diplomatically to join us in that commitment. Praise in public, scold when you're home.
MARTIN: All right. Well, I tell you what, Michael. The bottom line is he's still a world leader and we need their help, but I appreciate your phone call. Thanks a lot.
Sunny in my native Texas. Hey, Sunny.
SUNNY, TEXAS: Hey, Roland. My name is Sunny. I'm from Zimbabwe. That's where I was born. And I go to Zimbabwe every two years.
There is nothing in Africa. There's no food, no education, no health care. And more people like Madonna should go to Africa and see what it's like and what is lacking. And I followed CNN and how people are trying to humiliate Madonna for trying to go to Africa and get this child over here. And my feeling is that what is culture...
MARTIN: All right.
SUNNY: ... if you are dead?
MARTIN: All right. Well, first of all, Sunny, I appreciate your phone call. Let me correct you that you said Africa doesn't have this. There are a lot of developed countries there. You have Ghana, you have Kenya, you have some other countries doing very well. So not all countries in Africa or how you described it, but I understand your point.
Let's go to iReporter Rob King from Nevada -- Rob.
ROB, NEVADA, IREPORTER: I hope everybody knows that we're thinking about them, we're concerned. And we are from western New York so it's kind of like, you know, we're part of the family as well.
MARTIN: Folks keep calling, writing and e-mailing, because we want to hear in you.
Look, we're going back to tonight's breaking news, the scene of a deadly shooting rampage today. A live report when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, before we go, let's check back with Susan Candiotti in Binghamton, New York, with the latest on today's deadly shooting rampage -- Susan.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Roland, today started in an ugly way for the people of Binghamton. It started with a 911 call from a receptionist at this immigration center, a call saying from the receptionist that she had been shot in the stomach, and it unfolded from there.
According to police, the suspected shooter, Jiverly Voong (ph), in his early 40s, came into the immigration center and then shot everyone in the very first room inside the building described as a classroom. Soon after that, eventually the hostages were released, and this tragedy was over. But not for the people that survived. Fourteen people dead including the suspected shooter, five people injured, and a town in mourning.
MARTIN: All right, Susan, well, again, certainly give us the latest on that. Again, any idea, talk with the family members of the shooter? Anything regarding that?
CANDIOTTI: The family members of the shooter have been interviewed by the police department as well as the police now are going through a search of the family's home where he lived with his parents and sister.
MARTIN: All right, Susan, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
And folks, stay with CNN for continuing coverage of the shooting tragedy.
Hey, that's it for us. Have a great weekend. I'll see you on Monday.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
