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Campbell Brown
Pirates Continue to Hold American Hostage; Tornadoes Strike Tennessee; Negotiating With Pirates: The Cost of Freedom
Aired April 10, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone.
Breaking news tonight: more dramatic developments in the pirate hostage drama far off the coast of Africa. The showdown between the U.S. Navy and Somali pirates is intensifying. Team of pirates are leading other hijacked and their hostages, hoping to find the spot where an American captain is being held captive.
We start our coverage tonight with Stan Grant in Mombasa, Kenya, just south of Somalia.
Now, Stan, the four pirates holding Captain Phillips have apparently called for backup. So, give us a sense from your reporting what is going on with these additional pirates.
STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know, Roland, that there are many ships that are already still under pirate control. There are more than a dozen ships and there are potentially hundreds of hostages on those ships.
Now, we have heard that the U.S. Defense Department has intercepted communication from the pirates who are holding Captain Phillips on that lifeboat, who is the captain of the Maersk Alabama, and they are calling for reinforcements. They're calling for some of these other ships to make their way to that area and bring the hostages with them who would effectively form, Roland, human shields and stop any U.S. action against the pirates who are holding Captain Phillips.
MARTIN: Now, Stan, obviously they're going against the U.S. Navy. And, so, what kind of reinforcements are we talking about? What kind of weapons do they have in terms of numbers? Any sense of that?
GRANT: Yes, obviously, the weaponry cannot compete with what the U.S. Navy has. That would be foolish.
But what they do have are hostages. Now, there is one ship that we have heard in particular, Hansa Stavanger, this is a German cargo ship that had been intercepted, hijacked by the pirates earlier this month, on board that alone, more than 20 hostages. Now, they would act as human shields. They would be a buffer between the pirates and the U.S. warships, stopping the U.S. warships making any action against the pirates themselves. That would be the pirates' thinking.
And we must point out as well, the pirates are not unarmed. They're heavily armed. They carry rocket-propelled grenades, they carry AK-47s, not a match for what the U.S. has, but they are still armed -- Roland.
MARTIN: Now, Stan, how are the pirates communicating with each other?
GRANT: Yes, look, these pirates are very well-equipped. They have satellite phones. They are able to communicate with one other. They are very, very orchestrated, these pirates, as I said before, very heavily armed. We have seen what they have been able to do.
They have been able to hijack hundreds of ships over the past year or two. They hold these ships for ransom. Tens of millions of dollars have been extorted by holding these ships and holding these ships' hostages. So, they're very orchestrated, they're very organized. They have communications technology and they are able to communicate with each other now and that's what we're seeing being played out here -- Roland.
MARTIN: Stan Grant from Kenya, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks a lot.
Folks, the family of Captain Richard Phillips continues holding out hope for his safe return. But after a daring bid for freedom, he remains at the mercy of the pirates.
Randi Kaye is here.
Now, Randi, Stan has already told us about the pirates in terms of what they're doing. Give us a sense of what else is happening in terms of on the scene there, where the U.S. Navy is, where the captain is being held.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let's just say, Roland, it's been a very busy day in the Indian Ocean. That's for sure.
The USS Bainbridge has some company now. It's been joined on the scene by a second ship, the USS Halyburton. That U.S. warship can launch helicopters. It also has missiles. And a third ship, the USS Boxer is on its way, should be there within hours.
That ship has a medical facility on board, which may be needed, plus some more hostage negotiators, we're told. Now, they will be working around the clock to free Captain Richard Phillips, who tried to free himself last night.
Just before midnight, local time, the captain attempted to escape from the small lifeboat where he has been held captive for the last two days or so by four armed Somali pirates. Now, Phillips jumped overboard and tried to swim to safety, but before he could reach the USS Bainbridge, which is just a few hundred yards away, the pirates went in after him and grabbed him.
Shots were fired during this attempted escape. Now, CNN spoke with Captain James Staples, who has now Captain Phillips for 30 years. He says the escape attempt is just what he would expect from his friend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. JAMES STAPLES, FRIEND OF CAPTAIN PHILLIPS: No, I wasn't surprised by that.
That just shows you Richie's -- his character. He's not going to give up. He's going to be thinking all the time of what he can do to get out of this situation safely. He's not going to lay down. He's going to stay and fight until this is over and resolved and he's back home safely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Now, Randi, obviously that failed attempt must have increased the tensions. And so what are you hearing about that when it comes to the pirates and...
(CROSSTALK)
KAYE: Yes, a lot of people, Roland, wondering if the captain is in a heap of trouble after that attempted escape.
Well, first, let me point out that Captain Phillips was seen walking around on board that lifeboat after he tried to get away. So he appears to be unharmed. But I did speak with a former FBI negotiator, Chris Voss, who says that it's not likely that the attempt has put the captain in any more danger. Here is what he had to say about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS VOSS, FORMER FBI HOSTAGE NEGOTIATOR: The hostage-takers really don't blame a hostage for trying to get away. They would do the same thing if they were in his place.
Captain Phillips has obviously shown himself to be a resilient and courageous, courageous man. So, they probably respect him a little bit for trying this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Chris Voss also told me that escape attempt does make everyone a lot jumpier, at least temporarily.
But since the captain is the chip the pirates have to negotiate with, their only bargaining power, they probably won't harm him. They have to keep him alive and in one piece to stay alive themselves, which I guess makes a lot of sense, Roland.
MARTIN: All right, Randi, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Now, folks, even as more American ships arrive on the scene of the pirate hostage drama, the Navy is still forced to keep a distance. Right now that is the price of keeping Captain Richard Phillips alive.
But with more pirated ships heading to the scene, what can the U.S. do now?
We're breaking it down with Kirk Lippold, former commander of the USS Cole, the destroyer attacked by terrorists nearly nine years ago. Also with me is security and counterterrorism expert Kim Petersen, and Ken Menkhaus, a former special adviser to U.N. operation in Somalia.
And, Ken, I want to start with you. What can you tell us about the tactics of the pirates here? What are they trying to accomplish by sending these reinforcements to meet up with this lifeboat?
KEN MENKHAUS, FORMER UNITED NATIONS SPECIAL ADVISER: Well, that's pretty simple.
The tactic is to get the pirates who were in the lifeboat and the captain to shore, where they can renew the normal kind of negotiation for a ransom that has been so successful in the past. Right now they're in a condition that is highly unique and very dangerous for them.
MARTIN: Kim, let's deal with you on this issue in terms of if the pirates do bring in additional troops and the additional ships, obviously that just causes a whole different kind of reaction there in the seas.
KIM PETERSEN, PRESIDENT, SEASECURE: It absolutely does, because the primary concern here has to be not only for our hostage, Captain Phillips, but also for the other hostages that are being held from countries such as Russia, Germany, and the Philippines.
The pirates understand that we place a much great premium on life than they do and if they can bring the other hostages into this equation, it makes the negotiation far more complex for at Americans on scene.
MARTIN: Captain Lippold, we talk about the pirates and just what Kim just said, but what about from the Navy's perspective, because are they now saying, man, we now may have to engage?
KIRK LIPPOLD, FORMER COMMANDER, USS COLE: It's a possibility. I think all options are on the table for the Navy.
But the reality of it is, the Navy is still working to make sure that even with the two ships there and maybe a third on the way is to try and create the conditions, whether it's through show of force or just maintaining calm in the area, that, in fact, is conducive to those hostage negotiations that will eventually allow for the captain to be freed safely and for the pirates either to give up or receive some type of safe passage.
MARTIN: Now, Kim, we saw the French step in today. They actually went after some pirates regarding a private boat, saved four hostages. One was killed.
Is that the kind of action that , frankly, we might consider? Or does that highlight in terms of that death that, look, this is a very dangerous situation? PETERSEN: It's a very dangerous situation. And we have already seen that the current policy, the policy from the previous administration, has failed.
The notion that we're going to catch pirates in the process of trying to seize a ship and bring them to justice in some court somewhere on the west coast of Africa is simply a failed policy. And what we need to do now, this is an ideal opportunity for the new administration and President Obama to establish that, while we're going to reach out to countries that have historically been antagonistic to the United States, that doesn't mean that our diplomacy is also going to extend to kidnappers and murderers.
And there are many things that we can be doing now that we haven't been doing in the months and actually several years while this situation has been developing.
MARTIN: Commander, I saw you shaking your head there.
LIPPOLD: Well, I'm shaking my head, because the last thing we need to be doing is politicizing this situation by blaming the last administration.
Quite frankly, the problem with piracy has been going on for years. It's gone before this administration, the Bush administration, and into the Clinton administration. If you look back at the Strait of Malacca, it finally took the number of piracy acts there to get to a point where there had to be cooperation forced by the industry itself before Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia would begin working together.
MARTIN: Right.
LIPPOLD: And in this case here, I think we're trying to work as an international coalition.
When you look at the number of ships that were brought together, that are working together to try to provide the safe lanes to where these merchant ships can pass through, that's a success, not as much of a success as it could be. But clearly we're going to make progress. And now it's come to a point where they have hijacked an American ship. They're holding an American hostage and we're going to be at a point where we have to take more decisive action.
MARTIN: Hey, Ken, I want you to step in here, because is there a sense of overkill here? First ship, you have got one hostage, all of these resources. Is this overkill on the part of the U.S. Navy?
MENKHAUS: Well, we don't know yet.
It depends what happens. Certainly, there are those who argue that we run the risk of overinflating the nature of the threat. This is a serious piracy epidemic off the coast of Somalia. But they're earning $20 to $40 million a year in ransom. That's small change by comparison to the international shipping companies' expense expenses. It's small change compared to the amount of humanitarian relief costs that are going into Somalia each year. In the long run, what we need to be focusing on is an onshore solution. This is a country with no functioning government for 19 years. And it's going to continue to be a problem until we address that onshore political crisis.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: All right, the three K's, Ken, Kirk, and Kim, we certainly appreciate it. Thanks so much.
Folks, it's 28 feet long and right now it's the center of the world's attention. Jason Carroll will show us the kind of lifeboat that is a virtual prison for an American hostage. And I want to hear from you tonight on the pirate crisis.
Here is what Hester in North Carolina is saying.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
HESTER, NORTH CAROLINA: When four guys with .30-caliber rifles can hold off a Navy warship, what does that tell North Korea? What does that tell China, Russia and Iran? Are we totally impotent or what?
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: Well, he's had his say. Want you to have yours. Give me a call, 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e- mail me at Roland@CNN.com or drop me a note on Twitter and Facebook. The pages are very busy.
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, we have got a lot more to tell you about as the pirate showdown continues.
As I just mentioned, today, the French went in and freed some hostages aboard a yacht that pirates had hijacked. And a hijacked Norwegian cargo ship was released, but reports say a high price was paid, a hefty price.
So, just what kind of options do the U.S. really have? We will consider what may happen if the U.S. armed forces literally thinks the fight to the pirate den.
Plus, we will learn more about the man who put his crew's safety above his own.
And don't forget, I want to hear from you. So give me a call right now at 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. You can also e- mail me or find me on Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MARTIN: As the pirate drama unfolds, there are new developments with two other hijacked vessels.
CNN has confirmed that Somalia pirates released a Norwegian cargo ship and its crew today after seizing it more than two weeks ago. Reuters reports the owners may have paid a nearly $2.5 million ransom.
And as we touched on earlier, another hijacking drama along the Somali coast ended violently today when French forces stormed a yacht.
Our senior international correspondent Jim Bittermann is in Paris tonight.
Jim, tell us about this, four hostages involved, one dead. What in the world happened?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Roland, these hostages were on board this 50-foot sailboat for about a week now being held hostage. And the French navy had been tracking the ship as it kind of drifted off the coast of Somalia.
At one point, they decided things that were not going anywhere in the hostage negotiations. They had been negotiating for about the last two days. The hostage-takers, the pirates were rejecting the kinds of things that the French were offering, including, unusually, a ransom in this case. They don't usually do that. They offered the ransom.
The pirates rejected that. And they also started threatening to kill the hostages one by one. At that point, the French government and President Nicholas Sarkozy personally ordered the commandos to intervene. Eight commandos stormed the sailboat. And there was a gunfight that broke out.
The pirates were armed with Kalashnikovs. And the captain of the ship was killed in the midst of this gunfight. And it's not clear whose bullets killed him, but from one side to the other in a hail of bullets. The rest of the hostages were released. Four hostages were released, and two pirates were killed. Three pirates were taken in captivity, are in captivity now.
MARTIN: Of course, Jim, unlike all these other hijackings, this was a private ship, a sailboat, if you will, so it wasn't a commercial ship.
But, also, the captain, as you said, who was killed, he kept a blog. Can you tell us about him? What was he writing about, blogging about?
BITTERMANN: Well, Roland, I have been spending the last hour here just looking over this blog.
It basically is an account of his trip which started last summer. He and his wife and their 3-year-old son started sailing around the world last summer. And they were on their way back home. What is very eerie about it is that in his last entry, which was just a couple days ago, he said that they had been warned by the French navy. Both by a helicopter and a ship, they had been warned not to sail where they were sailing, but they continued anyway, not fearing the pirates -- the possibility that pirates could attack, and, in fact, they did -- Roland.
MARTIN: All right, Jim, we certainly appreciate it. Thank you so very much.
Now, folks, when we talk about a lifeboat, you're probably picturing something small and open, like in the movies. Well, you can forget that. We will climb aboard a lifeboat like the one at the center of this crisis for a real taste of the conditions the captain is facing.
Plus, residents of Tennessee pick up the pieces of their homes and lives after tornadoes strike. And, folks, the danger isn't over yet.
And bold moves behind the wheel -- a woman on the run with police in hot pursuit. Well, trust me, you want to see how this chase ends.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: We continue our breaking new coverage of the pirate showdown at sea.
Captain Richard Phillips now spending another night in a small lifeboat as the hostage of four Somali pirates.
Now, to get a feel for how difficult his escape attempt must have been, we need to understand what kind of lifeboat we're talking about here.
So, watch this, as CNN's Jason Carroll takes us aboard one just like it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wanted to give a firsthand look at the type of lifeboat vessel that Captain Richard Phillips is in right now.
It's one very much like this one. It's about 30 feet long. You can see it's covered on the top. There's a sliding door here on the front to keep the water out.
Once you step down inside, you can get a sense of just how tight their quarters are. You can see very low ceiling here. You can see there are seat belts that line the inside of the lifeboat vessel, so passengers can sit down and strap themselves in.
This over here is the back section of the lifeboat vessel, and even though it's covered, there is a seat back here that is elevated where someone could sit and steer the boat from this particular vantage point.
Also, up above, there are several little windows here, where you can see out and see exactly what's happening above you. Want to give you another vantage point from the other side of the lifeboat vessel, as I crawl through here.
There's another sliding door here on my left, more seat belts here for passengers to strap themselves into. Now moving my way to the front of the lifeboat vessel, there is a hatch above me. You can push out, look out and see above you. You can escape from this hatch, as well, if need be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN: That's CNN's Jason Carroll.
As you just saw, escape doesn't look easy. And I have been reading the Twitter and Facebook. And folks are saying, take them out. I'm like, yes, but you just saw it's a little hard to do that.
Also, it's hard to believe he even tried to escape, unless you know the man and his character.
Erica Hill, she is here now to help us with that.
Now, Erica, we have heard a lot about Captain Richard Phillips. But give us a sense more of who he is, where he comes from and what drives him.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you make a very good point when you say, for people who know him, this isn't surprising to them at all, Roland.
In fact, he was described by one friend today as the ultimate captain. So by all accounts, this is exactly the man you would want in command in a situation like this.
And that's why reports that he not only tried to escape, but also that he offered himself up as a hostage to save his crew really don't seem to surprise anyone who knows him.
Phillips, who is 55, graduated from the Massachusetts Maritime Academy 30 years ago with his friend Captain James Staples.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. JAMES STAPLES, FRIEND OF CAPT. PHILLIPS: Richard was always a fun-loving guy. He always had a smile on his face. He's a strong personality. And he's very resilient. And I believe that Richie will fare through this very well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Now, Captain Phillips' wife, Andrea, told CNN affiliate WCAX-TV her husband has been sailing for 20 years. Before the seas, though, he actually conquered the streets of Boston as a cab driver. It's a job he worked while attending the Maritime Academy. His mother-in-law tells "The Boston Herald" her family bonded with him right away and said that while he considered studying international law, the -- quote -- "beautiful sunrises and sunsets' drew him to the sea.
His sister described him this way on ABC's "Good Morning America" Thursday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA")
LEA COGGIO, SISTER-IN-LAW OF MAERSK ALABAMA CAPTAIN: He's just -- he's a lot of fun to be around. He's easygoing, laid back, just a real lovable guy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: A very lovable, lovable guy. We're told, though, at sea, he is all business.
Captain Phillips' mother-in-law says he's also an avid skier, he's a football fan. A neighbor told "The Boston" herald he -- quote -- "works like a beaver" on his house when he's home.
Perhaps his most important role, though, is sad. Captain Phillips is described as a wonderful father. He and his wife, Roland, have two children who are in college.
MARTIN: Well, it certainly has to be a difficult time for his family. So, have we heard from them today? Have they said anything at all?
HILL: We haven't. And we were supposed to hear from his wife yesterday. Understandably she canceled plans for a news conference.
They're not speaking on camera, but Andrea Phillips did release this statement today from Maersk Limited, which, of course, is the shipping company there, saying: "My family and I would like to thank our neighbors, our community and the nation for the outpouring of support. We have felt the compassion of the world through your concern for Richard. My husband is a strong man, and we will remain strong for him. We ask that you do the same."
MARTIN: All right. Erica, thanks a bunch.
Folks, there's plenty of you who have been writing and calling me, saying we should just get tough with these pirates.
Here is Torian from Kentucky.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
TORIAN, KENTUCKY: I believe that the United States should send their warships over there to let the pirates know that they're not playing around and that if they touch anything with U.S. flags on it, there will be a penalty to pay.
And other countries right now should be sending their warships over there to back the United States up, to let them know that the world is not playing with this piracy.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: Now, folks, well, Torian, look, it might be easier in the movies than it is in real life.
What are you thoughts? You can call me, folks, at 1-877-NO-BULL- 0. That's 1-877-662-8550.
Also, there are car chases, and then there's the one we saw today near L.A. Just when you thought you have seen it all, oh, you haven't.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: There are plenty of opinions out there on how to deal with this pirate problem. For one, why not hit them where it hurts, at home. Well, we'll examine that strategy in- depth just ahead.
Right now, Jessica Yellin has "The Briefing." Hi, Jessica.
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATL. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Roland. Well, there are severe storms that are continuing to wreak havoc down south.
Two people were killed by a tornado this afternoon in Murfreesboro, Tennessee. That's about 30 miles southeast of Nashville. Dozens of homes were damaged or destroyed.
Another tornado last night killed three people in Mena, Arkansas, near the Oklahoma state line. More than a hundred homes were damaged or destroyed. Another twister was caught on camera outside a mobile home park in DeQueen.
Fire marshals believe that at least one of the wildfires that roared through suburban Oklahoma City was intentionally set, though they've stopped short of calling it arson. Several dozen homes were reduced to ashes there. Three people were killed in separate fires just across the border in Texas.
Rescue workers in Italy think they've located an earthquake survivor buried in the rubble. Digging machines have been brought in. It's been two days since anyone has been pulled out alive from the quake that's already killed 287 people.
Listen to this. A Boynton Beach, Florida woman set up a webcam to try to catch some crooks breaking into her home, and it worked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OPERATOR: 9-1-1. JEANNE THOMAS: Yes. Hi, my name in Jeanne Thomas. I'm watching my home on live monitor, and there is a man in my house and he's robbing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: She watched it from work as burglars tried to take her flat screen TV and her safe. Police actually surrounded the house and arrested four men. That's a good excuse as any I've ever heard to leave work early.
And finally, you got to watch this video. A woman led Long beach, California cops on a wild high-speed chase. Watch the video. At times, it reached speeds over 100 miles an hour. Look at her.
At one point, this woman is jumping out waving her arms at officers and she jumps back in. OK. So the cops, they finally boxed her in. They pulled her out of the window -- look at that -- and the 47-year-old, of course, faces a slew of charges.
MARTIN: Five of them.
YELLIN: I know. She's got some anger management issues.
MARTIN: Oh, man, this was hilarious video. I mean --
YELLIN: You can't get enough of it.
MARTIN: And normally these are guys. Normally, these are guys who should be doing this stuff. So, all right then, so --
YELLIN: One for the ladies.
MARTIN: Yes, yes, yes.
YELLIN: I don't know.
MARTIN: We'll -- she gave us a good laugh. All right, Jessica, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Folks, as we follow the unfolding pirate drama off the coast of Africa, we're going to step back and look big picture. If the U.S. really wants to eliminate the Somali pirate threat, do we need to strike them where they live? We'll consider the options.
Also, a question for Arizona State University. Has President Barack Obama really accomplished too little in his life to be worthy of an honorary degree? We'll deal with that later.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: We're back now on tonight's breaking story. The pirate showdown off the coast of Africa. Somali pirates have staged 66 attacks -- 66 since January. Four ships were attacked just last weekend. So, why can't the U.S. just lead a coalition into Somalia and take care of these pirates once and for all? Well, folks, it's not as easy as it sounds. Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence joins us now from our Washington bureau.
Now, Chris, show us exactly where these possible targets are. Where are the pirates concentrated?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Not easy is an understatement. They're telling me that a lot of the pirates come from right here, at the Horn of Africa in an area called the Puntland.
The thing is that area is almost a 100,000 square miles, which is like saying, the state of Colorado. But some military officials say that if you wanted to really focus your efforts, it would be right here, near the coast at the city of Eyl.
A lot of people consider this to be a haven for pirates right here. And at any one time, there could be a dozen hijacked ships sitting in the nearby port waiting for ransom to be paid. In fact, entire industries have sprung up around piracy here. Restaurants, accountants.
Want to know how dangerous this place is? Last year, two French sailors were hijacked at sea. As soon as the president of France found out they were taking them to Eyl, he immediately set troops out to sea to mount a rescue there. President Sarkozy specifically said he could not let them be taken to Eyl -- Roland.
MARTIN: Now, Chris, what kind of geographical challenge we're talking about that military operatives could face if we chose to go there?
LAWRENCE: Yes. Eyl, Roland, is just one haven, one part of this entire region. There's a large mountainous region in the northern part of Puntland around Bari. That could also pose a physical obstacle like parts of Afghanistan. You can add to that some very dry, very extreme temperatures.
MARTIN: Now, Chris, if we know where these guys are for the most part, why not go after them?
LAWRENCE: Well, besides all the problems that I just laid out, that, Eyl is just one of the hotbeds. Take a look at this.
The coast of Somalia is huge. When you take a look at this at a wide angle, it's more than 1,800 miles long. That's nearly the length of the U.S.-Mexico border, and we know how hard that is to patrol. They could be hiding anywhere along this very broad coast.
MARTIN: Chris Lawrence, thanks so much. We certainly appreciate it.
So should we hit them? We want to talk about that right now with Karin von Hippel of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and retired Major General Tom Wilkerson of the Naval Institute, a forum for issues related to sea power.
Now, General, you've got a piece on CNN.com where you say take the fight to the pirates, to their home turf. Why?
MAJ. GEN. TOM WILKERSON USMC (RET): Well, what I say is if you want to keep the pirates from doing what they're already doing, you have to take the fight to them. You can't stay on the defensive in an area five times the size of Texas with three ships. It just doesn't work, so you got to either change your plan or change your goal. It's your choice.
MARTIN: Well, General, how do we do it? Troops? Do we do it with special forces? How do we do it?
WILKERSON: If you decide that you wish to take the fight to the pirates, then you've got a range of options available to you that include all the things you just said. The point is, instead of letting the pirates dictate the course of action, you begin to dictate how things are going to be done. You decide when to attack, where to attack, what you're going to do instead of waiting for them to come to you.
MARTIN: Karin, is this a smart idea? Do you agree with it? And if so, how difficult would it be for us to operate in this area as Chris just described?
KARIN VON HIPPEL, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC & INTL. STUDIES: Right. I mean, I think in principle that makes sense. The problem is in practice we don't have good intelligence about what's happening on the ground in Somalia. These places can be quite dense. Maybe some will be in Eyl but others will be in other places.
And we're not just dealing with the pirates themselves. They're maybe a thousand pirates. The pirates are the foot soldiers. There are financiers. Some of them don't even live in Somalia. They're in neighboring states.
You go into the communities, you can't distinguish them from other Somalis. They look just the same. They're not wearing a uniform. And, of course, the communities now are benefiting from the prizes that the pirates bring in, and so they'll protect them and shelter them. So you could end up with a huge humanitarian disaster.
MARTIN: General, a lot of Americans remember "Black Hawk Down," the movie, 43 Americans killed in Somalia in the early '90s. Doesn't that leave a bitter taste in our mouths?
WILKERSON: "Black Hawk Down" was an aberration. The military has for many decades advertised that we're the most powerful military nation in the world. Navy, Army, Air Force, Special Operations -- we have what it takes. It should be then that its capabilities would allow us to make that kind of decision and do that kind of effort if we want to.
The question is, if we do. Karin's point is well taken. But then you have to own up and say, it's OK to have pirates for a while because we really don't have the capability to go after them.
MARTIN: But Karin, doesn't the situation also speak to the reality that these pirates, we have issues when it comes to fishing or overseas, you got to deal with poverty? And so, if we take them out, aren't we simply just allowing folks to simply come back again because this has been profitable?
VON HIPPEL: You're speaking to me now? I'm sorry.
MARTIN: Yes. Yes, go right ahead. Go ahead.
VON HIPPEL: Oh, yes, Roland, I'm sorry.
Yes, I totally agree with you. I mean, I think we need to have a multi-prong approach. I think we can use force when we do have good intelligence, but I think we also need to think about ways of partnering with the Somali people.
Now, we can do this through radio. Somalis all listen to BBC, Somali service and other Somali language radio. They need to hear that the ship actually had food for Somalis.
The Saudi tanker that was taken recently, the Saudis have been very supportive of the Somali peace process over the last decade. I think that if we start a public relations campaign partnering with the Somalis, then you get the communities themselves to see that this is actually not a good thing. It's not in their long-term interest.
I also think we can put pressure on the local authorities. Puntland has a local government. Let's make that government accountable. Let's tie aid to them demonstrating that they can bring these people to justice. Let's do that with a new transitional government in Mogadishu. That's really like, you know, have some incentives, an offer (ph).
MARTIN: If I could squeeze this in about 15 seconds, General, you have -- this is not a U.S. problem alone. International -- other countries are being attacked as well. So should we shoulder the burden alone or rely on the international community? About 15 seconds.
WILKERSON: We're the ones who say that we're the leading military power in the globe. We're going to have to take a leadership role. And I think she's right about how. We need a multi-prong attack, but it starts with being able to prosecute the use of force effectively to send a signal and begin to let the pirates know there's no sanctuary. As long as there's a sanctuary, they're on it.
MARTIN: Right. Karin von Hippel, General Wilkerson, we certainly appreciate it. Thank you so very much.
WILKERSON: Glad to be with you.
VON HIPPEL: Thank you.
MARTIN: So, folks, what do you think about this whole bizarre pirate hostage saga. Listen to California iReporter Robin Savage (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN SAVAGE (ph), IREPORTER: I honestly can't believe we've reached this point where it's so easy for pirates to, you know, take control of a cargo ship.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Time for you to speak up, 1-877-NO-BULL-0. 1-877-662- 8550. You can also e-mail me, roland@cnn.com. I'll be on Twitter and Facebook so drop me a note there. I'm going over right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: We're covering breaking news. The U.S. Navy sending more firepower to the scene of a dramatic standoff where Somali pirates are holding an American captain hostage. And tonight, there's word the pirates may have reinforcements on the way. So, what's next and what are the choices?
I'm joined again by transportation security and counterterrorism expert Kim Petersen. And James Christodoulou, one of his company's ships was captured by Somali pirates just last year.
Now, Kim, the situation has escalated. You got the Navy, the FBI. Pirates may be coming on the way. Look, this is getting complicated. What are the negotiators trying to do right now?
KIM PETERSEN, SECURITY & TERRORISM EXPERT: Well, they're doing everything they can to keep the hostage takers from doing anything precipitous. The absolute imperative here is to protect the life of the master of the ship, Captain Phillips, and at the same time try to prevent allies of the pirates from trying to link up with them and complicate the issue by bringing more hostages into the situation.
MARTIN: James, you dealt with this. You negotiated with pirates. No FBI, no Navy.
JAMES CHRISTODOULOU, CEO, INDUSTRIAL SHIPPING ENTERPRISES: No.
MARTIN: And so tell us what was it like? What happened?
CHRISTODOULOU: It was very intense, Roland. It's every day you're making decisions that can directly affect people's lives. But as I said, the first thing that we did was define our objective. And our objective was the safe release of our crew. Everything we did after that was designed to achieve that objective.
MARTIN: And they also wanted money?
CHRISTODOULOU: That's what they wanted throughout everything. They just wanted the money. There was no animus. There was no hostility, and it was very commercial, business-like transaction.
MARTIN: What was it like in terms of trying, you know, dropping the money? And how did that whole thing come down how you got the money to them? CHRISTODOULOU: Logistically, we withdrew money from a bank in London, put it in a private airplane in two bags, flew over the ship and dropped that money out of a plastic tube with a parachute.
MARTIN: Kim, the captain, Captain Phillips, tried to escape today. How much more difficult does it make for him trying to do that if you are negotiating and all of a sudden you hear, you know, the person you're trying to free tries to escape?
PETERSEN: Well, to an extent, it also helps the negotiators to know that he is in good health. He wouldn't have been able to do that if he wasn't receiving modestly good treatment. He wasn't bound, and he was healthy enough to be able to leave the boat. And we've since heard that he's been seen walking around the ship. So these are all positive signs that he hasn't been mistreated and that there's a good likelihood that we might be able to bring him back safely.
MARTIN: Now, Kim, we got a pirate lifeboat out of gas. So, what if, frankly, somebody said, well, why don't we just give them some gas? They can go their separate way. We can get the captain. Could that somehow make sense?
PETERSEN: Well, it could. And, of course, there are those that are going to say that once that exchange has been made, we can simply go after them and break whatever agreement has been proffered. But the problem is that there are other hostages at stake and that's the big complicating factor here.
You have Germans, Russians, Filipinos and others that are being held hostage on shore. And that's why it's so important that the pirates not be able to bring Captain Phillips to Somalia.
MARTIN: James, how do you think this is going to affect future situations? Because when you have the Navy involved, sending additional ships, the company doesn't want a hostage, do you think it's going to have a serious impact going forward?
CHRISTODOULOU: Well, certainly, this now serves as a lightning rod to bring global view on this crisis that's been around for quite some time. I think that the intensity now surrounding this one incident may not be completely helpful. I think, you know, it's good to take a deep breath, take a step back. These pirates could be panicking. They may not be cohesive. And even --
MARTIN: So you're saying all this could very well hurt the situation?
CHRISTODOULOU: I think it very well could, because, don't forget, the pirates on board may not all be agreeing with each other. They may be feeling cornered and trapped.
MARTIN: Got you.
CHRISTODOULOU: I think this is a time for finesse, not force.
MARTIN: Good point there. Folks, what do you think about that? Are you sticking around James as well as Kim? We're taking your phone calls, folks, so give us a shout.
Also, what's all this about Arizona State University, declining to give the president of the United States an honorary degree when he shows up to address its graduates come May 13th. Are they serious? Stay with us.
Also, at the top of the hour on "LARRY KING LIVE," Larry's guest tonight will be Marie Osmond. Pop music fans, take note.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, we're back with counterterrorism expert Kim Petersen in Washington, as well as cargo shipping executive Mr. Christodoulou here in New York.
James, glad you're back to keep at the thorny (ph) question of what America can do to end these pirate hijackers.
I'm going to the board here. We've got different folks calling in. We're going to go to Tennessee where Nathaniel is giving us a shout from Nashville.
Nathaniel, you got 20 seconds. Go.
NATHANIEL, NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE (via telephone): Yes, Roland. As a military police soldier and trained in hostage negotiation, I feel that we need to expeditiously get this American out of hostile territory. But post that, we need to also set something up where we can bring these pirates to justice, prosecute them. Put them through the system, have them put in jail as fast as possible as well as --
MARTIN: All right. Nathaniel, we appreciate it. Time is up.
Hey, Kim, what about that, Kim? Can we sit here and prosecute them? We really know where they are right now.
PETERSEN: Well, that's been the policy for the last couple of years. And we heard Secretary of State Clinton the other day say that it was still the policy of the United States to bring these pirates to justice.
Quite frankly, I think that the time is over. We don't need to bring these people to justice. We need to bring them to their knees. And we have the means to do that.
We have the most powerful nation in the world. We have the military assets in the region, not only naval vessels but also special operations command in Djibouti. We just have to see now if there's a will in Washington to make a game-changing decision here with respect to piracy.
MARTIN: All right. We'll go to the big west. Andrew, Sioux City, Iowa. Andrew, you're on the clock. Go.
ANDREW, IOWA (via telephone): Yes, Roland, I don't see why our U.S. military should have been in there last night and had that captain out of that boat when we should have sunk that boat after it was done.
MARTIN: All right.
ANDREW: We should have them -- our Navy Seals, they should have been in the water. They should have been there, got the guy out and we should have sank that boat. And also, if we're having trouble with the Somali pirates, forget going on land. We should just start bringing groups like Blackwater on their boats and attacking them right from their boats.
MARTIN: All right. All right. Great point there.
James, but look, you talked about the fact that you have other ships, 300 people still being held hostage. We cannot forget that.
CHRISTODOUOLOU: We shouldn't forget it because it's not just Captain Phillips, this very brave American out there. There are 300 people being held hostage also. You're right. We should have probably blown up that boat, but we need to, I think, once again, be mindful of the other captives and be finesseful (ph).
MARTIN: Time to go to the Bay Area. Simon, you're in San Francisco. What's your comment?
SIMON, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): I think you should go to the countries involved. I think it's a no-brainer. Go to the countries involved, have them all pony up money, train a security force, have those personnel on board.
As these pirates attack, once a few of them are repelled and they get killed and they realize that there isn't free money or food on these things, on these big ships, they're going to stop doing it. There's no carrot. There's no stick.
MARTIN: All right. James, does the area you're covering, four times the size of Texas, is an international army the answer?
CHRISTODOULOU: An international army is the answer, but it's got to provide a security umbrella for the entire region. And once again, as we provide defensive capabilities, we have to be mindful of the hostages still being held.
MARTIN: All right. We certainly appreciate it. Folks, thanks for the phone calls. Great comments.
James, Kim, we certainly appreciate it. And folks, stay with CNN as this extraordinary story unfolds over the weekend.
Also, tune in for our special investigation tomorrow night at 8:00, "Somali Pirates, Can They be Stopped?" Again, that's Saturday, tomorrow at 8:00 p.m. Eastern.
Also, an Alabama congressman is sounding the alarm tonight. Are there really socialists in the United States Congress? Well, we'll go hunting next in the "Political Daily Briefing."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right. Time for the "Political Daily Briefing," and a somewhat optimistic President Obama, Jessica?
YELLIN: He was optimistic today, Roland. That's right. After a White House meeting with his economic advisers, President Obama talked up the economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: What you're starting to see is glimmers of hope across the economy. The economy is still under severe stress, and obviously during these holidays we have to keep in mind that whatever we do ultimately has to translate into economic growth and jobs and rising incomes for the American people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: The president says credit markets are thawing. More homeowners are refinancing because of low interest rates, and small businesses are taking out loans. He predicts another boost from all those tax cuts in the stimulus.
MARTIN: Now, look, we love good news. So we've got a certain congressman parroting out socialists in Congress?
YELLIN: Seventeen socialists to be exact, Roland.
MARTIN: Seventeen.
YELLIN: Seventeen.
MARTIN: Oh.
YELLIN: According to Alabama Congressman Spencer Bachus, he knows of 17 socialists in Congress, and he's worried about them, but he won't name names.
Now, in fact, there's only one member of Congress who openly claims the label, Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, and he accuses Congressman Bachus of red baiting. Feel like you've seen this movie before?
MARTIN: What's his middle name, McCarthy?
YELLIN: No comment.
MARTIN: Also, OK, the biggest story in D.C.,...
YELLIN: Get ready.
MARTIN: ... presidential puppy?
YELLIN: Can you believe, it is the most closely held secret in Washington, and it might be out. Word on the street is, look for that presidential puppy to make its debut early next week. And the odds-on favorite is a Portuguese water dog. It's very cute. They look certainly like fluffy poodles.
MARTIN: I don't like dogs.
YELLIN: You don't like dogs?
MARTIN: No, I don't. Sorry.
YELLIN: We've got to discuss that.
MARTIN: OK. Well -- all right. OK, now, Arizona State, please.
YELLIN: Controversy. Yes, yes.
MARTIN: What's wrong?
YELLIN: All right. The president is going to give a commencement address to Arizona State University. And the university has said that they will not give him the customary honorary degree yet. That's because they say those degrees are usually for "someone who has been in their field for some time," and the president's body of work is just beginning.
Ouch! Now, Roland, some of the people who that university has deemed worthy of a degree before include a vice minister of education in China.
MARTIN: China.
YELLIN: From China, and a Canadian prime minister. So, as you might imagine, this has caused a little bit of controversy and the university says it's reconsidering. The president now says, "We will honor Mr. Obama in every way possible." I see a do-over.
MARTIN: So a politician from China and Canada is cool, but not an American president.
YELLIN: Go figure.
MARTIN: OK, way to go issue (ph). All right. Jessica, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
Folks, I want to take a quick check and just talk about education. I'm excited about a new project we're calling "class project."
I'm excited because there is nothing more important to me than education. From day one, my parents insisted that school, not sports -- so don't ask me if I played football -- would be my highest priority. And my wife handed (ph) the same to our nieces that we're raising.
So, here's what "class project" is all about. Whether you're a student, a teacher, or a parent, we want to know what's going right or needs fixing in your schools. So upload your videos to ireport.com/classproject and your videos could be the key to providing solutions for our nation's schools.
Well, Jessica, we certainly appreciate it. And thanks so much and thank all of you who called and e-mailed us.
Folks, I'm back on Monday. Have a great weekend.
"LARRY KING LIVE" right now.
