Return to Transcripts main page
Campbell Brown
President Obama Reverses Course on Torture Investigation; Bailout Billions Wasted?
Aired April 21, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN ANCHOR: We have got a lot of developing stories tonight and of course a ton of folks here to cover them.
Here's what's in the news right now.
White House bombshell: Could Bush administration officials who OKed water-boarding face prosecution?
Why is this man smiling? The suspected Somali pirate is charged and could face life behind bars.
And everybody's fired up about Miss California and same-sex marriage. Listen to this call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CARL, ALASKA: Miss California was absolutely right in standing up for her moral beliefs. She's a winner in my book. And I appreciate that.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
MARTIN: Well, folks, at the top of our agenda, will some Bush officials be tried for the approving interrogation methods like water- boarding?
Here's what President Barack Obama said today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For those who carried out some of these operations within the four corners of legal opinions or guidance that had been provided from the White House, I do not think it's appropriate for them to be prosecuted.
With respect to those who formulated those legal decisions, I would say that that is going to be more of a decision for the attorney general, within the parameters of various laws. And I don't want to prejudge that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Now, that's a statement that leaves lots of open questions.
And national political correspondent Jessica Yellin, she is here with some answers.
Now, Jessica, could Bush officials really face trial?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They potentially could.
What the president did today, Roland, is he opened up the possibility of prosecuting Bush administration officials, the folks, the lawyers who wrote the rules giving legal clearance to do these severe interrogation techniques some people call torture.
Now, this is news because it seems to be an about-face for his administration. In just the last 24 hours, two of the White House top officials said that the president does not believe in prosecuting these guys. The president himself has said he wants to move forward, not back. And that's why he said we shouldn't prosecute the guys who did the interrogations themselves.
So this does seem to be something of a change of position.
MARTIN: Ah, pretty interesting there. But we have got lots of folks here to talk about this.
Of course, will he cross to -- allies as well? He stepped all over Democrats in Congress on this issue as well. And, so, how does he deal with that, because you have Democrats on one hand saying, wait a minute, hey, give us a shot to go after these folks. We want to look at all the evidence.
YELLIN: Exactly. He crossed Democrats in Congress who want to hold investigations. One, they're already holding an investigation themselves. And they want to have hearings on this. And, secondly, they also -- he crossed his own attorney general.
And it's up to his attorney general really to decide who gets prosecuted, who doesn't. As a constitutional lawyer, the president knows this and so he says really it's up to the Justice Department.
MARTIN: OK.
Want to bring the panel in right now.
Want to go to Ron, first off with you.
Let's jump to it. Did the president get his butt kicked by the folks on the left and frankly acquiesce to them? Because he at first said, no prosecutions. Now the door's open.
RONALD KUBY, ATTORNEY: Well, here's how it sounds.
You're not going to prosecute the torturers because they were just following legal advice, not even orders, just legal advice. You're not going to prosecute the lawyers who gave them the legal advice. And you're not going to prosecute the officials who directed the lawyers to give the legal advice. It sounds more like a mafia operation than the way government itself should function. So, I don't think he got his butt kicked by the left. I think he sort of sat back and said this looks bad for the basic principles of the rule of law.
MARTIN: Of course, I couldn't wait to get to Ron, then introduce the rest of the panel, because I want to hear his response.
He was saying that he was feeling it in the makeup room.
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: He was ready to jump in the makeup room.
Ron Kuby, of course, criminal defense attorney and also host of Air America's "Doing Time With Ron Kuby." In Washington, D.C., is Jed Babbin, of course former deputy undersecretary of defense for the first President Bush, George H.W. Bush, also CNN anchor and correspondent Erica Hill.
Hey, Erica, what's happening.
Lisa Bloom, anchor of Court TV's "In Session," and, of course, Jessica Yellin as well.
And, Jed, I want to go to you. Now, look, Bush administration folks are saying this makes no sense at all prosecuting folks at all. And so what do you make of the president switching gears here?
JED BABBIN, FORMER DEPUTY UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, I think he's flip-flopping because he put himself in a very bad position.
Through the campaign, he said people would be held accountable. Now he's finding, shock of shocks, there is no crime under which these people can be prosecuted. There's nothing in the United States code that says it's illegal to give a legal opinion, even if somebody disagrees with it later or thinks that it's wrong.
The whole thing is a sham trying to get Mr. Obama out of the moral dilemma he put himself in, in the campaign.
MARTIN: Lisa?
LISA BLOOM, TRUTV ANCHOR: Well, doesn't good faith matter here?
And let me address this to you, Ron. If the attorneys are in good faith interpreting the law as they see it, and they said that water-boarding and these other techniques were in compliance with the law, they turn out to be wrong, there's a new administration that feels differently, is it right to prosecute them?
KUBY: You're making a lot of assumptions that are not really in evidence. Number one, it's fairly clear that the Bush administration picked the attorneys who were going to give him the go-ahead that he wanted.
BLOOM: Well, as every administration does.
KUBY: Number two, the attorneys themselves in the Bybee memo indicated this may very well not stand up in court. We don't know that a court is going to confirm this.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: That's just a standard legal disclaimer.
(CROSSTALK)
KUBY: Right.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Any lawyer is going to put that at the bottom...
(CROSSTALK)
KUBY: It's a legal disclaimer that allows them to say, we just give legal opinions. It allows the torturers to say, we just follow legal opinions, and allows the administration to say, we just ask for a legal opinion. Where is the accountability?
MARTIN: Jed, go ahead.
BABBIN: Well, wait a minute. This is all baloney. There is no crime here. These people gave legal advice. Even if they gave it in bad faith, there is nothing in the United States code that says you can prosecute them.
So, all this is just so much puffery. And the president and all these other people -- if Eric Holder comes back and says they can be prosecuted on something, I would like to see what it is. The United Nations Convention Against Torture Title does not provide for it. Title 18 United States Code does not provide for it.
All of this is political shenanigans. They want to help Pat Leahy with his truth commission.
MARTIN: I want Erica and Jessica to weigh in.
Erica, the president obviously he takes this position. Does he appear to be weak in terms of going back on his word, when he was so emphatic on Friday?
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's something that a lot of people are in fact discussing today. And it is that appearance that can be incredibly important -- this is definitely something that Jessica can weigh in on -- especially in Washington, because there have been a number of questions, too, over certain moves that the Obama administration has made and whether or not this makes President Obama himself appear weak.
So, obviously, this is being picked a part, every little piece, and looking at, hey, when this all first came out, you said, we want to look forward, the nation should look forward, we should not be looking back. And yet, now, to some people, it sounds like there's a little bit of backpedaling. So, whether or not that makes him appear weak, obviously, that's sort of in the eye of whoever is watching. But it's an important point.
MARTIN: Jessica.
YELLIN: And to Erica's point, the Senate Republican leader is making that very point today. After the president said, he said...
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Mitch McConnell.
YELLIN: Yes, Mitch McConnell said, this is just confusing.
Because one of the unknown questions, as all the lawyers here can point out, is, it's not even clear who they're talking about prosecuting, the interrogators, the Bush administration Justice Department lawyers who wrote these memos, or the policy guys inside the White House who told them to go look into this?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Sound like the lawyers. As Shakespeare said, the first thing we do, let's get after all the lawyers, right? Who can be against that?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: I'm sure folks really want to hear from more lawyers.
Panel, hold tight one second, a lot of other things to talk about, folks.
Now, look, are you at home wondering where all those bailout billions have gone? Trust me, so are we. Wait until you hear what our investigation turned up.
Also, we know you folks at home have some strong opinions about Miss California and her comments on same-sex marriage. Trust me, we have got the very latest on her story tonight.
Also, we want to know what you think, so give us a call, 1-877- NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. Also, e-mail me, Roland@CNN.com, or find me on Twitter and Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: So, are you worried about how your tax dollars are being used to bail out banks? Trust me, you better be. We heard from two different government watchdogs in D.C. today. They said TARP funds are ripe for waste, fraud, and outright theft and Congress better do something fast.
Drew Griffin from out Special Investigations Unit is following the money from Atlanta tonight.
Now, Drew, not a lot of confidence on Capitol Hill.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Not on Capitol Hill, not anywhere, really. It's a real fear, Roland, that taxpayer money could literally be wasted or even stolen.
Now, TARP, which stands for Troubled Assets Relief Program, is so huge and so few people are keeping track of it that the inspector general in charge of that is saying Congress needs to make some changes. Separately, Roland, earlier today, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner testified before the congressional oversight panel.
And before he even started, the chairwoman said what has so many Americans worried that there seems to be no accountability, no way for the American public to know that their money is going to any good. It just seems to be going to Wall Street and banks and that the TARP money came with no strings attached.
Now, here's what the treasury secretary had to say about accountability.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIMOTHY GEITHNER, U.S. TREASURY SECRETARY: I have said it publicly. Going forward, where institutions need exceptional levels of assistance, we will making sure that assistance comes with conditions that provide for the necessary degree of accountability, help ensure these firms emerge stronger rather than weaker. And that's an important principle. We're committed to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Going forward, that was the key there.
Roland, the biggest issue is transparency, whether or not even this congressional panel is getting a clear picture of where the money went and is going now.
MARTIN: Well, Drew, while the hearing was going on, the special inspector general's latest report on TARP had loud and dire warnings that criminals would be going after this money, right?
GRIFFIN: Yes, this was making headlines before Geithner even got up to the Hill. In fact, according to the special inspector general, they already are seeing this money, not just flat-out criminals trying to go after it, but high-level influence peddlers, those typical Washington corruption and conflict of interests connections that, unfortunately, we have become accustomed to.
He issued a quarterly report today. One startling revelation, the fact that his office has already gotten 200 tips on possible criminal activity. There are 20 investigations and another six audits under way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NEIL BAROFSKY, TROUBLED ASSET RELIEF PROGRAM SPECIAL INSPECTOR GENERAL: We're looking at accounting fraud, securities fraud, potential insider trading, corruption issues, really, what you would expect when you have as much money going out in such a short period of time, sort of the typical array of white-collar crimes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: And one of the warnings that he issued, Neil Barofsky there singling out a program that -- the president's $75 billion plan to buy back those troubled assets.
He says, if there aren't big changes to this mortgage refinancing thing, that fraud is going to be ripe here. The safeguards need to be put in place in advance. He says his office is on top of it, trying to use a multi-agency task force from the FBI to tax investigators to attorneys general's office across the nation.
But when you read the report, 250 pages, Roland, you get the sense of just how overwhelming the task is going to be. The money, to make sure it isn't stolen, they not only want to track that, but actually to see if it was worth it. We're talking about a whopping $3 trillion in various programs to see that not only was it rightly placed, but, once placed, did it do anything? -- Roland.
MARTIN: All right, Drew, thanks a bunch.
You have got to let Congress.
Well, at least Neil Barofsky has some power. His TARP investigation could lead to criminal charges. The congressional oversight panel, all bark, no bite.
And joining me now, Eamon Javers, a financial correspondent for Politico.com, Peter Schiff, president of Euro Pacific Capital, and, of course, Jessica, Erica, Lisa, and Ron.
Look, folks, I don't understand this. Basically all of us have about as much power as this oversight panel.
So, Eamon, explain what in the world is going on. Why do you create an oversight panel and they have no juice?
EAMON JAVERS, "THE POLITICO": Well, it's got name and shame power really is all it's got.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Name and shame. Wow, that's great.
JAVERS: And they have got the juice to haul Tim Geithner, the secretary of the treasury, before their own panel and ask him some very pointed questions, as they did today. That does have some influence in Washington. People in this town are afraid of being hauled in front of Congress to answer questions, right?
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Eamon, we can ask him questions, but having a panel with no power, how are you effective?
JAVERS: Well, it's going to be very difficult.
Basically, all they can do is drum up publicity around the issues they think are concerning. There is a proposal on Capitol Hill to actually give these guys some subpoena power, so they can actually force people to turn over documents and conduct a real investigation.
But, for now, that power lies with the special inspector general over in Treasury, Neil Barofsky, who is conducting those 20 investigations. So, there is some investigation going on here. But we have seen this in the past with Katrina and with Iraq war spending. When money's moving out of Washington fast and low, somebody's going to steal it. And you can almost guarantee that's going to happen again this time.
MARTIN: Much better than the pirates.
Hey, Peter, you think the government should just scrap this whole thing, right?
PETER SCHIFF, PRESIDENT, EURO PACIFIC CAPITAL: Well, sure. There's no right way to administer the TARP. It shouldn't exist.
Bankruptcy is a healthy part of capitalism. When the government props up insolvent companies, it undermines the whole system. And of course, from a legal perspective, the TARP is unconstitutional. We're a nation of laws and the government has to respect our laws. They just can't do whatever they want. And this thing is just going to be a giant boondoggle. The politicians are going to take all this money, and they're going to route it around to their friends and their buddies.
And it's going to go to where politics wants it, not to where it needs to go.
BLOOM: Hey, Peter, what part of the Constitution prohibits giving money to companies that are failing?
SCHIFF: Well, remember, the way our Constitution is written, the government only has the authority to do what the Constitution says it can do.
BLOOM: Yes.
SCHIFF: And there's nothing in the Constitution that gives the U.S. government the right to bail out private companies, to buy stock in private companies.
BLOOM: So, because there's no specific provision, we have to just accept another Great Depression potentially? SCHIFF: No, no, they're going to cause another Great Depression. Look, if we would have abided by our Constitution, we never would had the bubble.
And so it wouldn't have had to burst. But now that it's burst, we need to deal with the consequences. We can't keep sweeping them under the rug.
KUBY: Peter, Peter, Peter...
SCHIFF: Yes.
KUBY: The commerce clause of the United States Constitution allows for the regulation of interstate commerce. I understand you object to this as a policy, and that's fine, but we went through this during the Roosevelt administration, where they engaged in exactly the same sort of deficit spending, exactly the same type of bailouts. It's perfectly constitutional.
SCHIFF: No, it's not unconstitutional.
KUBY: If you want to argue it's a bad policy, fine.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHIFF: You can't throw this under the commerce clause. The commerce clause doesn't -- this has got nothing -- that's an abuse of that clause.
According to you, the government can do whatever it wants, so let's just tear up the Constitution.
MARTIN: Well, I think we have pretty much seen that.
Now, Erica, of course, this has had a direct impact on the average household. How so?
HILL: Well, it did. In fact, there's a group called the Ethisphere Institute. It's a nonpartisan research think tank.
And back in December, they started looking at TARP funds, so they created this TARP index. And, as of right now, what it means beyond the confusion that everybody at home has over what the heck is actually happening here and with their money, according to this TARP index that was created by Ethisphere, pretty much each household in this country has lost about $1,000.
Now, this is terms of the money that was invested in TARP. Already, $107 billion folks that has been lost. So, basically, for folks at home, that's what it means.
(CROSSTALK)
SCHIFF: They're going to lose a lot more than that, because the government has to create all this inflation to fund the TARP. And so because of what the government is doing, the average American is going to see his cost of living rise dramatically and the value of their savings evaporate.
YELLIN: Well, the bottom line with TARP, Roland, also is that the Treasury Department said the whole point was to increase lending.
MARTIN: Right.
YELLIN: And, today, Geithner said, frankly, it's been a mixed bag. We haven't seen great results. So, the very purpose of TARP has not been realized.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Eamon, a final comment. Eamon?
JAVERS: Well, the Obama administration is in sort of exquisite political agony here, because it looks like the results of these stress tests are going to come in later in this month and early next month.
And it might be that some of these banks need even more money going forward. And there's already so much controversy over this TARP that it's going to be very, very difficult for them to finesse that. That's going to be the next political challenge ahead for the Obama folks.
MARTIN: Ah, more money. Great.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Eamon and Peter, thanks a bunch. We certainly appreciate it.
HILL: Get out your checkbook, Roland.
MARTIN: There you go. Panel, hold tight one second.
Folks, good student, clean record, bright future, but the Boston police will add one more thing: suspected murder. Stand by for more on the unusual suspect in the craigslist murder case.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right. Talk about your all-American college kid. Take a look at this. He's a medical student, engaged to be married this summer, but is he a killer? Boston police say so. We will tell you why.
Also, a judge rules in the case of a suspected pirate accused of attacking Americans at sea. Tonight, the special treatment his lawyers wanted, but didn't get. Lisa loves that.
Plus, I still can't get over Miss California getting raked over the coals for giving an honest answer to a direct question. She doesn't believe in same-sex marriage, and she said so. And it may have cost her the Miss USA crown.
I-Reporter Robin Savage of San Luis Obispo, California, says, don't blame her. Blame the judge, Perez Hilton.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBIN SAVAGE, I-REPORTER: I feel like Perez Hilton sort of crossed the line, because I feel like he should have respected her freedom of speech and not go overboard.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Well, what do you think? Give us a call ,1-877-NO-BULL- 0. That's 1-877-662-8550 -- back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: The Boston medical student accused of killing a woman at a luxury hotel was in court today -- 22-year-old Philip Markoff is being held without bond on charges he shot a masseuse he lured to the hotel through a post on craigslist. Markoff said nothing during his brief court appearance today.
Police say they found a semiautomatic weapon at Markoff's home and other items exactly like those used in another attack.
We now go to Boston with Randi Kaye with the latest on this story -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Roland.
As you mentioned, Philip Markoff in court today for the first time. He was in shackles. And as you saw in some of that video, he was wearing a blue and white striped button-down shirt. He didn't show any emotion. In fact, he didn't even say a word.
But his lawyer told the Associated Press that Markoff is not guilty. Now, also in court today, you might not have seen him in that video, was the father of the murder victim in this case, Julissa Brisman -- Roland.
MARTIN: All right, Randi, we certainly appreciate it. Thank you so very much.
Folks, a lot of new developments to talk about tonight.
Joining me now, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the host of issues on HLN, and back again, national political correspondent Jessica Yellin, CNN anchor and correspondent Erica Hill, and Lisa Bloom of truTV.
Now, this is a very interesting story. Here's what his fiancee told ABC News. She -- quote -- "All I have to say to you is, Philip is a beautiful person inside and out and could not hurt a fly. We expect to marry in August and share a wonderful, meaningful life together."
Now, Jane, she's talking about marriage, but police say this is a guy who's a killer.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HEADLINE NEWS ANCHORS: Well, I think she's in denial.
And I think this man, if police have the right man, is living a double life and he has a toxic secret. And that toxic secret came to the surface when he allegedly needed to get money to pay back his gambling debts.
And I think another aspect of his toxic secret is that he has an issue with sex, because I don't think it's any accident that he targeted erotic workers. There is a significance to all the decisions that a killer makes in the course of committing a crime like this.
And, again, he's only accused. But I think it's all very interesting. And this guy has toxic secrets up the wazoo.
MARTIN: Lisa, Boston police are talking about the kind of evidence they have collected we saw, linking him to craigslist. And, so, clearly, they must have a lot of stuff on him to go this extent to say we're going to charge him and bring him to trial.
BLOOM: Right.
There's a long list of law enforcement agencies that have been on this guy and following him. And they got him when he was about to cross the border from Massachusetts into Rhode Island.
And the main evidence they seem to have, they say, is forensic evidence and computer evidence. You can't hook up with somebody on craigslist and not get caught. It's as simple as that. You can try to delete from your computer. The investigators can find it.
And you see he's always on his mobile device on their surveillance tapes. Well, they can certainly track him as to place and time and follow those tweets or BlackBerry messages or whatever he was doing.
MARTIN: Randi, first of all, what have learned about him? We're hearing all kind of different stories, as Jane talked about, in terms of gambling, sex. He's engaged. What more do we know?
KAYE: Well, we know that from the district attorney, Roland, that there is some evidence that he was either coming from or going to a local casino in Connecticut when he was arrested.
That's about it as far as we know about the gambling. But I did talk to a lot of folks who knew him and who know him. And I talked to one neighbor who lives upstairs from him in Quincy, Massachusetts. He told me that they made small talk often in the elevator. He says that Philip Markoff used to pet his dog often.
He never met Markoff's fiancee, Megan McAllister, but he said that wedding gifts were actually rolling into the couple's apartment building. There's supposed to get married in August, as you may know.
And now here's what he told me, though, this neighbor. Here's what this neighbor told me about riding in the elevator with the man now accused of murder and kidnapping. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICK SULLIVAN, NEIGHBOR OF PHILIP MARKOFF: My girlfriend actually rode the elevator a lot with him alone, which is kind of freaking her out now, because she thought he was kind of the all- American good-looking guy.
When she saw him on TV yesterday, she even remarked: "I can't believe it's him. I always thought he had such a great smile. And he was so nice to me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Now, I also spent some time this afternoon at Boston University's medical school, where Markoff is in his second year.
And I talked to a lot of the students there, some who knew him, some who didn't. But really they all agree that they feel pretty much -- I'm quoting here -- creeped out by this whole thing. They don't understand how someone training to be a doctor, training to save lives could allegedly take one -- Roland.
MARTIN: Erica, so many people have just questions as to what the heck is going on.
HILL: Well, they do.
And Randi brings up some good points, too, about the questions that people have about this man. We always hear, oh, he seemed like such a nice guy, as we heard from the neighbor in the elevator. He was a medical student, obviously, very intelligent. And yet, you look at the clues that have allegedly been left here and what we're learning, the e-mail address that was set up apparently the day before, the I.P. address, which is one of the easiest things in the world to trace.
MARTIN: Right.
HILL: You look at these clues, a gun, ammunition, plastic ties reportedly found in the apartment.
MARTIN: Obviously, he didn't watch "CSI."
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: Jane, what does -- but what does that tell you? Is this a sign of arrogance? Is it, hey, you know what, I'm never going to get caught, because I am the guy who has it all?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Or maybe subconsciously he wanted to get caught, if he is in fact that smart. Maybe he has issues involving sex and involving, well, he's about to get married.
And, you know, according to a friend in college, said the one thing he thought was strange about his guy is that he didn't date a lot in college, and he was a guy's guy. So, my personal hypothesis -- and I have no proof of this, but my hypothesis is that he's got serious issues involving sex, and that he felt that these women needed to be punished. And that's why he felt justified in attacking these women, because he thought, sex is dirty. These women are dirty. And I'm going to punish them.
BLOOM: And, look, smart people get caught all the time committing horrendous crimes.
(CROSSTALK)
HILL: ... lot to talk about, doesn't it?
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: In this same jurisdiction, Dr. Richard Sharpe, Dr. Greineder, doctors in the same jurisdiction.
People living double lives -- Jane is right -- they are the ones that you really have to watch out for. Look at Scott Peterson. He seemed like such a nice clean-cut guy, right? Look how he turned out.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: Neil Entwistle in the same jurisdiction.
MARTIN: And, Jessica, a lot of people very concerned, obviously, in terms of going on craigslist, meeting people, talking to people during business from a lot of folks.
YELLIN: It's not funny, but I heard this story and I thought I'm never going on a blind date again. This looks like the resume of a guy you bring home to mom, med student, clean-cut.
MARTIN: Right.
YELLIN: It's terrifying.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Real quick. Real quick.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I think it's wrong to stereotype people and say that clean-cut people can't kill. I mean, please.
YELLIN: Clearly.
MARTIN: Right. It does happen.
BLOOM: Yes, we got to get rid of these profiles and the idea that people are all shifty-eyed guys in trench coats. This is what a killer can look like.
MARTIN: That's right. I agree.
All right, folks, we will be watching this case for quite some time. Hold tight one second.
Folks, you want to tune in to AMERICAN MORNING tomorrow to hear Craigslist CEO Jim Buckmaster ensure what they are doing to protect their users.
Now, catch the "Most News in the Morning," of course, starting at 6:00 a.m. Eastern.
New details coming in tonight on the American journalist jailed in Iran as a spy. The Iran judiciary now says her eight-year sentence will be reconsidered.
Coming up, my conversation with the jail woman's father.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Folks, I know, you're still fired up about Miss California and same-sex marriage. We're all going to be talking about it here. We want certainly give you a chance to weigh in.
Give us a call. 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1-877-662-8550. But first, Jessica is back with "The Briefing."
YELLIN: Hi, Roland. OK, the FBI has put an animal rights activist on its list of most wanted terrorists.
Daniel Andreas San Diego, a computer specialist from Berkeley, California, has been on the run for six years after bombings at corporations he believed had ties to animal testing labs. Sightings of the heavily tattooed vegan fugitive have been reported from Virginia to Costa Rica.
We've got an update tonight on the mystery illness that killed 21 thoroughbred horses in Florida over the weekend. Veterinarians who treated the dying horses think an adverse drug reaction or a toxin killed them. But still detailed toxicology tests could take weeks. Police say there is no evidence, at least yet, of a crime.
And, Roland, there's news tonight of the young American journalist who was jailed in Iran for spying. Iran's judiciary chief said today the case of Roxana Saberi might be reconsidered on appeal. Observers think that is a hint that her sentence could be commuted, and I know a lot of people are working to make that happen.
MARTIN: And earlier today I talked with her father, Reza Saberi, in Tehran. He's, of course, again, the father of Roxana. And I asked him about his daughter's condition in prison.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REZA SABERI, FATHER OF JAILED JOURNALIST (via telephone): Under the circumstance of the prison, we can say that she was -- she was OK. She was fine.
MARTIN: Are you confident in what the Iranian government is saying? Do you think your daughter will actually get a fair trial in Iran?
SABERI: Well, we are only hopeful. We cannot say whether she will get or not. But we are still hoping that she will.
MARTIN: Now, President Barack Obama has said in public that he would like to see this process resolved. But do you think he's doing enough to help the situation?
SABERI: Well, because they don't have a conflict here, their hands are tied. And they are trying -- they are trying what they can, I believe. So, that's why it's so difficult. The two countries didn't have relations for some years. And now this problem has come up. It's not easy for them to resolve it.
MARTIN: Are you at all concerned about your safety to by talking to American media, with regards to the case?
SABERI: Well, I don't think so. We are just saying what's happening and we are not talking politics. Just our daughter's pictures (ph), our daughter's case.
MARTIN: Are you talking to your daughter every day? Are you allowed to see her? How are you communicating with your daughter?
SABERI: Only once a week we can visit her.
MARTIN: So you can visit her once a week. For how long?
SABERI: About 20 minutes.
MARTIN: Does the day vary? Is it the same day each week? Or is it whenever you choose?
SABERI: No, it's a certain day. You know, once a week on a certain day.
MARTIN: And I would assume that you're going to stay there as long as necessary until you're able to bring your daughter home, correct?
SABERI: That's correct.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MARTIN: Don't forget that was earlier today. Now, civil rights activist, the Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr., has offered to go to Iran if it will help win Roxana Saberi's freedom. As you call, Reverend Jackson has done a number of similar missions in the past. He's on the phone right now from Malaysia.
Now, Reverend Jackson, how confident are you that you will have an opportunity to be able to go to Iran and influence the government to release this journalist?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW/PUSH COALITION (via telephone): Well, Roland, it would be based upon a humanitarian plea, a mercy appeal. They made their judgment within their judicial system, so it really is a mercy appeal.
Our delegation is now in -- here in Asia. And between Malaysia and Thailand and the peace conference, the peace and justice conference, we made an application this morning for a passport and a visa relationship, as it were, to go to Tehran, if they will allow us in, to make this appeal.
Iran has so much to do, and the stakes are so high. To hold her there would be a diversion away from their big agenda. So we may come back with some political and religiously making a mercy plea for her release.
MARTIN: Reverend Jackson, have you communicated any of this to the Obama administration and gotten the approval? Because we remember in 1984, when you got Lieutenant Goodman out of Syria, the Reagan administration, they were not happy that you and the delegation went to Syria?
JACKSON: Well, we have every legal right to go. And if we are able to exercise and gain entrance, we will do just that. The good news is President Obama has made an appeal for her release. Secretary Clinton has made an appeal for her release. And we, upon that course, are appealing for her release.
Ten years ago when she was a student at Northwestern University at the Medill School of Journalism, her and Tiffany Hillberg (ph), came to Rainbow/PUSH and did an interview, her first interview with me ten years ago.
MARTIN: So this journalist has interviewed you before?
JACKSON: Yes, as a student, a grad student in Medill. So there's some kinship.
I talked with her father earlier today. And so we're working now with the father and with her classmate and religiously. Whenever we brought Americans home from captivity, there were always four things happening whether we were in Iraq or Syria or Yugoslavia or Cuba.
MARTIN: About 15 seconds, Reverend Jackson.
JACKSON: One was that the strains between our own two countries and there are. We want to resolve those strains. And there was a lack of appreciation of the rule when this took place. So we hope that our appeal to religious leaders and political will converge and enable us to help facilitate gaining her release. We feel that she deserves it.
MARTIN: OK. Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr. from Malaysia, we certainly appreciate it, sir. Thank you very much.
Folks, the Somali pirate suspect found out today he could end up behind bars for life. But his parents say he's too young to stand trial. Will he get a fair treatment in American courts?
And we're still hearing from you at home about Miss California, her comments on same-sex marriage. Listen to what Alison wrote on Facebook.
"Yes, this should have cost her the crown. She sounded uninformed, incoherent, and didn't reply specifically to the question which asked about what she felt states should do."
What do you think? Give us a call. 1-877-NO-BULL-0. That's 1- 877-662-8550. Hit me up on e-mail, Twitter or Facebook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: New York City is seeing a pretty (ph) sensational trial, a ton of them. In the latest, a judge ruled this afternoon that the lone survivor of the four pirates who hijacked a U.S. cargo ship two weeks ago will stand trial as an adult. His parents told the judge he's only 16 years old but if found guilty, he could be sentenced to life.
A lot of stuff to talk about here. Coming right back is Ron Kuby, criminal defense attorney and civil rights lawyer, Lisa Bloom of truTV's "In Session," CNN correspondent Erica Hill, and our national political correspondent Jessica Yellin.
Now, Ron, can this guy get a fair trial in the U.S.?
RON KUBY, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it's going to be extremely difficult, after being called a pirate repeatedly, scum, and after watching the SEALs take out three out of his colleagues. There's a tremendous amount of anger and prejudice and animosity toward him, especially in light of the incredibly compelling story of Captain Phillips who we were all hooked by.
BLOOM: He's picked up with his compadres on the high seas and they were armed with an AK-47, and do you think they have the wrong guy?
KUBY: Well, he was on the USS Bainbridge voluntarily.
BLOOM: Yes, because he jumped out of the boat.
KUBY: He either came there under a flag of medical troops.
BLOOM: Yes.
KUBY: Or he came to the USS Bainbridge under a white flag of troops in order to negotiate the release of Captain Phillips.
BLOOM: So it does not exonerate his part in the earlier criminal conspiracy?
KUBY: Well, we don't know --
BLOOM: I mean, come on? A hand injury? He wants treatment?
KUBY: Well, you know --
MARTIN: So I would assume Lisa would not be defending him. ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I don't think so.
MARTIN: I got you.
HILL: But also, but in terms of defense, we should also point out in full disclosure here, you have been contacted by a Somali defense organization in Minnesota...
BLOOM: Uh-huh.
KUBY: Correct.
HILL: ... who his family has connected. They asked you to consult on the case. And I know this is one of the things you've been talking about. But when it comes to the actual -- when we're looking at the trial and the sentencing and this is, you know, sort of a lawyer question here, what could happen, what do you think the effect is going to be, not only in terms of the message the U.S. is sending?
But, Lisa, just looking at this from your perspective, what is this actually going to do to the attacks? Is there a thinking perhaps in this trial that maybe we could have an effect?
BLOOM: Well, here's what I think is important in this trial that nobody talks about. The U.S. treats juveniles differently than the entire rest of the world does.
In fact, Amnesty International did a report. Usually, they talk about other countries. They talked about the United States. We have over 2,000 people in prisons for life without the possibility for parole for crimes committed under the age of 18. The rest of the world combined, 12.
So we are completely out of touch with the rest of the world on how we treat juveniles. I am sure this 16-year-old will be treated as an adult, will be convicted of felonies like an adult, and will be sentenced to life like an adult. And the rest of the world will say, hey, this is out of keeping with our values.
MARTIN: Ron?
HILL: What's interesting too is the age and confirming that age. They don't have birth certificates in Somalia.
MARTIN: Right. That's right.
KUBY: The mother insists that he's 16 years old. The government originally said he was between 16 and 19, until they decided a federal prosecution. Then the government decided well, he's 18 or 19.
BLOOM: Well, he gave conflicting statements.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: I want to let Jessica into this. HILL: Part of the problem was the father, too. Couldn't remember -- remember, he said this is the date of this child of mine, but I don't remember the birth dates of my other children so that's part of the problem to see the documentation.
MARTIN: Sounds like someone in major league baseball, Dominican baseball players.
Now, Jessica, the Obama administration, they have a hand here. What not prosecute this case in Kenya? What are they saying?
YELLIN: Right, because Kenya is the place where pirates have been prosecuted in the past. We allowed this to happen. It sends a message.
I think it goes to what you guys have been saying that if this man is prosecuted here, child, man, whatever, this is a message to the pirates around the world that the Obama administration is going to be tough on them.
MARTIN: All right, folks, we are done with this conversation for the moment. A lot of things to chat about.
President Obama was out today encouraging Americans to follow in his community service footsteps. I will retire (ph) to find that one.
After signing the Senator Edward Kennedy Serve America Act, he joined President Bill Clinton and dozens of volunteers for a tree planting near the White House.
Also at the top of the hour, "LARRY KING LIVE" will have much more of the medical school student who's the main suspect in the Craigslist killing case.
Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: Time now for our "Political Daily Briefing." All right. Lisa, kicking Mary J. Blige.
Kicking off tonight's "PDB," President Obama's invitation to key Middle East leaders to come to Washington and talk about making peace.
Jessica, break it down.
YELLIN: It's a big day at the White House today, Roland. First, the president met with King Abdullah of Jordan, then the White House announced that President Obama will personally take on the issue that has bedeviled his predecessors, peace in the Middle East.
According to the White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the president is inviting leaders from Egypt, Israel and the Palestinian Authority to meet with him in Washington to discuss a comprehensive peace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: With each of them, the president will discuss ways the United States can strengthen and deepen our partnerships with them, as well as the steps all parties must take to help achieve peace between Israelis and Palestinians, and between Israel and the Arab states.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: The meetings will take place separately over a few weeks. No dates have yet been set.
And it was an honor for Senator Ted Kennedy and a boost for volunteerism today when the president signed into law the Edward M. Kennedy Serve America Act to expand national service. Among other things, the nearly $6 billion act will triple the AmeriCorps program over the next eight years.
At the ceremony, former President Bill Clinton who founded AmeriCorps, and Senator Kennedy himself. Earlier in the day, it was a potentially awkward gathering when the two met with the president in the Oval Office. As you know, relations between the two, Senator Kennedy and former President Clinton were tense after Kennedy endorsed Obama over Hillary during the campaign. But at today's signing, the mood was light and volunteering was the focus.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All that's required on your part is a willingness to make a difference. That is after all the beauty of service. Anybody can do it. You don't need to be a community organizer or a senator, or a Kennedy, or even a president to bring change to people's lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
YELLIN: After the event, the president acted on his own words, along with Bill Clinton, the Bidens, Michelle Obama, and some students who planted trees in a nearby park.
And, we knew this was coming. Finally, it now looks like disgraced Governor Rod Blagojevich is not going to be the next reality TV star after all -- at least not now.
A judge decided today not to let him travel to the jungles of Costa Rica to be on the upcoming reality show "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here." Instead, he said Blagojevich must follow the rules of his bail like anyone else facing charges. That means he has to remain in the country and help lawyers put together his defense.
Blagojevich had already agreed to do the show pending a judge's approval. The network producing the show called the judge's decision disappointing but said there are no plans to move the show's location from Costa Rica into the U.S.
Couldn't they hold it just in jail? I'm a celebrity, get me out of jail?
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Well, yes, I think this tape (INAUDIBLE) title for a reality TV.
All right. Jessica, thanks so much.
HILL: Oh, it's not over yet. We all know that.
MARTIN: Yes, indeed.
Folks, the Miss USA runner-up says she was wronged and lost the title because she spoke her mind on same-sex marriage.
We've been getting a ton of comments on Facebook about this. Here's a sample from Shawn Monique Davis who wrote, "She wouldn't have won even if she was for gay marriage. She's not that bright.
HILL: Ouch.
MARTIN: OK. Let me know what you think. The number to call 1- 877-662-8550. Hit me up roland@CNN.com or Twitter and Facebook. We're just on the board.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right, folks, I'm surrounded by a bunch of women tonight -- Jessica Yellin, Lisa Bloom, Erica Hill and Jane Velez- Mitchell here.
Now, look, I'm trying to figure out what's the big deal with Miss California's answer to a question about same-sex marriage. Of course, she was asked, she answered. Miss California, Carrie Prejean, gave her honest opinion. So, is there no room for her honesty anymore?
Carrie Prejean, of course, was scheduled to be on the show tonight. Her PR team canceled on us, but she was on the "Today" show this morning. Here's what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARRIE PREJEAN, MISS CALIFORNIA: The way that I answered it, you know, might have been insensitive to people and I said no offense to anybody. I did not want to offend anybody. But I think with that question specifically, it's not about being politically correct. For me, it was being biblically correct.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: All right, folks, here's the deal. If she had said she supported same-sex marriage, would there be a debate?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. There would be people who are not in favor of same-sex marriage who would be upset. I think the reason why she didn't win is her answer was dumb. She referred to heterosexual marriage as opposite marriage which is funny if it wasn't so pathetic.
BLOOM: Isn't the opposite of marriage divorce?
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Of course, she's saying opposite right after saying same-sex marriage.
BLOOM: Yes, opposite marriage. I think Perez Hilton is the one who's got egg on his face in this controversy after the misogynous language he used referring to her, the "b" word, and the "c" word that rhyme with --
MARTIN: "b" word, the "c" word.
BLOOM: He's got a lot of nerve. I think he's the one who should be apologizing. And by the way, I agree with him on gay marriage.
MARTIN: I got you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Why is it that people should be very polite when they're told that they're second class citizens? Why should people sit there and be oh so very polite?
(CROSSTALK)
I don't think you should have the right to get married. Wouldn't you be ticked off?
MARTIN: Well, first of all -- first of all, first of all, today is my eighth wedding anniversary. To my wife, Jackie, I love you.
But here's the deal, though. He made a comment about her -- the "c word, the "b" word. What if she uses the "f" word to him? Then what happens?
I mean, he's been very rude with his comments.
BLOOM: And that's beyond the pail. And I'm 100 percent with the money on gay marriage issue, but there's no reason to treat her that way.
YELLIN: How can she be talking about biblically correct when she is prancing around in a teeny-weeny bikini? I mean, where is this beauty pageant --
(LAUGTER)
MARTIN: Praise the Lord.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That's right.
BLOOM: And by the way, wasn't there an intelligence component to the beauty contest? Let's get rid of beauty pageants entirely. They are demeaning to women and they're embarrassing on us.
MARTIN: A lot of folks on the phone lines. I want to go to Mark on the phone -- Mark.
MARK, LOUISIANA (via telephone): Yes. Irrelevant of Perez Hilton's comments, Miss USA should be able to represent the entire country, not just a religious right. The question was an equal right question not a religious one.
If Miss California cannot represent the gay population and the heterosexual population as a whole, she does not deserve the title of Miss USA.
MARTIN: OK, thanks a lot. First of all, Mark, thanks a bunch.
But really, how many people are really thinking about Miss USA and Miss America have to say?
BLOOM: Does she represent anything other than having a nice body and a pretty face?
MARTIN: It's a pageant. Come on.
Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, it's her opinion. What if she expressed a racist opinion or an anti-Semitic opinion or a sexist opinion? That would be OK? No. Your opinion isn't always OK, especially when you want to be the winner of this kind of pageant.
MARTIN: If you don't want to answer, don't ask the question.
Kellen in Atlanta, Georgia, what's your thought?
Kellen?
KELLEN, GEORGIA (via telephone): Yes, I just thought that it should be important to note and should be considered the fact that the applause after her comments seems to be pretty boisterous in the favor --
MARTIN: That seems applause and boos. It was applause and boos.
KELLEN: Yes, that's true. It seems from viewing this that there was a big applause.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: I think there's a touch reason-driven on this question.
MARTIN: OK.
All right. Thanks a bunch, Kellen.
Jessica, final comment.
YELLIN: She shouldn't have made news on it. She should -- she wants to be a spokesmodel, she should know enough not to make news to avoid the sticky questions. BLOOM: Yes, but she was asked a direct question, she answered it. And she answered it as respectfully as she could.
MARTIN: All right. All right. Hold tight one second, folks. Back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MARTIN: All right, folks, back to our big question now. Do you think Miss California was wronged or was she wrong to be honest?
Back with us once again, Jessica Yellin, Erica Hill, Lisa Bloom and Jane Velez-Mitchell.
You know what's interesting, she made a comment about same-sex marriage but you know what, the president has the same position that she does. The vice president has the same position. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saw him like, so you tag her, but she said nothing about those --
BLOOM: But the times, they are changing. Look at Vermont. Look at Iowa. The times are changing very, very quickly, and I think that's part of the problem that the rules are really changing. There's a tectonic shift in the issue of gay rights. Even Republicans are starting to support it.
MARTIN: Same impulse. Fifty-five percent of Americans are against same-sex marriage though.
HILL: You brought up an interesting point too earlier. We're talking about Perez Hilton. One of the things that has come up especially today was his treatment of her afterwards. And the fact that if he is, in fact, trying to advance his cause and to gain support for gay marriage, and for same-sex marriage and to get people to understand hey, I'm just like you, that going out and calling her a "b" and a "c" and saying I take my apology back --
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Ten seconds.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Women didn't get the right to vote by being polite. They got shamed. They were arrested, they were suffrages. Getting polite doesn't get you anywhere.
BLOOM: Oh, I disagree with that.
MARTIN: All right, folks, we are absolutely out of time. I want to thank all of you who called, e-mailed your comments today. Your voices are important and we love hearing from you. We also want to thank the panel as well.
Folks, stay with CNN. "LARRY KING LIVE" is straight ahead.
