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Campbell Brown
Could Jackson Family Have Saved Michael?; Steve McNair Murder- Suicide Confirmed
Aired July 09, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Could a family intervention have saved Michael Jackson? Tonight, new information about how his sister Janet and his mother tried to get him help. Was there anything more his family could have done? We will talk to a doctor who may know.
Plus, did a suburban Philadelphia swim club really ban kids because they're black?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just kind of like said that, like, people are still thinking like this.
BROWN: Tonight, shocking charges of discrimination.
And new details about the murder of Steve McNair -- the affair that turned deadly. Why do some star athletes go astray when they're out of the spotlight?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you make a transition away from the game, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you change.
BROWN: Legendary Hall of Famer Warren Moon joins us live.
Plus, the tapes you have to hear. A man holding his wife hostage calls a reporter during the standoff. That reporter joins us live.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody.
Those are our big questions tonight.
But we start, as always with the "Mash-Up." It is, of course, our look at all the stories making an impact right now and the moments you might have missed. We're watching it all, so you don't have to.
We're going to start tonight in Iran, where a fragile 11-day calm shattered, thousands of protesters, again, taking to the streets, in open defiance of the government as police use violence to crush the demonstrations.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Several eyewitnesses reported members of the pro-government Basij beating people with batons. Also, we're hearing some aggressive, pointed chants targeting the government. We're hearing death to the dictator, death to Khamenei. A lot of people had their eyes on this day.
Today is the 10-year anniversary of a student protest that took place back in July 1999. Members of the opposition movement without approval from opposition leaders apparently used this opportunity to come out into the streets and protest the June 12 vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Iran's supreme leader says the election results will stand.
In Washington, Republicans stepping up their assault on President Obama today, saying his stimulus plan hasn't done squat. But they got some unexpected pushback from billionaire investor Warren Buffett, who told ABC's "Good Morning America" one stimulus isn't enough for him. He wants more.
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WARREN BUFFETT, CHAIRMAN & CEO, BERKSHIRE HATHAWAY: The first stimulus bill, it seemed to me, it was sort of taking a half a tablet of Viagra or something, and then having also a bunch of candy mixed in, you know, as everybody was putting in things for their own constituencies.
And it doesn't have really quite the wallop that it might have been anticipated to have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Well, as for President Obama, he was an ocean away from the stimulus smackdown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC ANCHOR: Day two of the G8 summit, the yearly gathering of the world's largest economic powers. Despite the fact that this is a meeting about global economy, President Obama's taking heat over economic concerns here at home.
CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: You have heard the expression, you know, while Rome is burning? Well, it seems like while the president is here in Rome, he's seeing problems domestically. And, you know, while he's away...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president came here hoping to forge consensus on an aggressive response to global warming. BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ice sheets are melting. Sea levels are rising. Every nation on this planet is at risk.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But, in the end, there was disappointment, as the gap between rich and poor nations proved impossible to bridge, just as it has for years.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Check out, by the way, this close encounter between President Obama and the leader of Libya, Moammar Gadhafi, a leader the world once shunned. Now the United States and Libya have full diplomatic relations. And the two leaders met in Italy today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Tomorrow, President Obama meets with Pope Benedict at the Vatican. And then it's on the African nation of Ghana. Our Anderson Cooper is on that trip and he will have a full report on Monday.
A horrifying story tonight from just outside Chicago, 300 graves at a historic African-American cemetery ripped up and resold. This is just unbelievable. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Investigators say employees at Burr Oak Cemetery in Alsip, Illinois, have been digging up graves, discarding the remains, and then reselling and reusing those plots.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was not done in a very, very delicate way, folks. When the digging occurred, they would excavate a grave. They would excavate the entire site. And then they would proceed to dump the remains wherever they found a place to do it in the back of the cemetery. This was not replacing graves. It was not moving graves. This was dumping of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you kidding me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I'm not kidding you. I'm not kidding you. And, also, the other side that you see that is just terrifying to see are the people that are wandering around the cemetery looking for their family members. And some of them -- we have talked to one lady -- we will have something on her later, but she said, "My brother is not here." So, there are people just wandering around looking for their family members.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Many of these families are almost having to relive their grief, rebury their lost loved ones again today because of all this. It's an absolutely tragic, horrible situation on the Southwest Side of Chicago.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Four cemetery workers have been charged in the crime. New developments tonight over in Jackson world. California state officials tell CNN that the Jacksons may be able to bury the pop star at his Neverland Ranch. Santa Barbara County would have to green- light the plan. They say they haven't heard from the family yet.
It is, of course, two weeks to the day now since Michael Jackson died. And he still hasn't been laid to rest. Meantime, President Obama's drug czar is trying to turn the pop star's death into a teaching moment. Check him out. This was on CBS's "Early Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIL KERLIKOWSKE, U.S. DRUG POLICY DIRECTOR: Certainly, Michael Jackson's very sad -- the loss of him is a wakeup call to this country. So, all of the prescription drugs have legitimate medical uses, but the key is, they're being abused. And the key is that parents can actually help prevent a lot of this. And there are a lot of ways to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And remember that congressional resolution honoring Michael Jackson? Yes, not happening.
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REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Michael Jackson was a great, great performer, and lots of sadness there for many reasons. There's an opportunity on the floor of the House to express their sympathy or their praise any time that they wish. I don't think it's necessary for us to have this resolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Further proof politics and pop stars just don't mix.
And speaking of things that don't mix with politics, how about payoffs? Today, a senator's sex scandal got a little more scandalous.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN ENSIGN (R), NEVADA: Last year, I had an affair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When John Ensign admitted his affair, he called it the worst thing he had ever done. Now he's made another stunning admission, $96,000 in payments to the family of his mistress. The payments were made by the senator's parents shortly after the world's husband found out about the affair in early 2008.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Now that husband is speaking out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He paid severance to your wife out of his own pocket?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To my knowledge, that's correct.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How much?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That, I don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't you know? She's your wife. Was it more than $25,000?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A lot more?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was a lot more than $25,000? He has got some serious issues, because that was never disclosed.
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL, NBC NEWS: Senator Ensign's attorney put out a statement today that reads, in part: "In April 2008, Senator John Ensign's parents each made gifts to Doug Hampton, Cindy Hampton, and two of their children in the form of a check totaling $96,000. After the senator told his parents about the affair, his parents decided to make the gifts out of concern for the well-being of longtime family friends during a difficult time. The gifts are consistent with a pattern of generosity by the Ensign family to the Hamptons and others."
Oh, boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Oh, boy, indeed.
And, with that, we pause for something not at all scandalous, just babies playing in a park, gone viral in a big way. Check it out.
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(MUSIC)
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BROWN: That is actually a commercial for Evian. We're not exactly sure how it sells water, but we kind of love it anyway.
And now that you're cheerful, our punchline courtesy of Conan O'Brien taking aim at the non-Palin half of last year's Republican ticket.
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CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": Senator John McCain is in the news again. Senator John McCain says he's been using Twitter to share his opinions on this year's Major League Baseball All-Star Game.
(LAUGHTER) O'BRIEN: Yes, Twittering, Twittering. Yes. Apparently, no one has the heart to tell McCain that he's been Twittering on his garage door opener.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Conan O'Brien, everybody.
And that is the "Mash-Up."
We have some breaking news right now to tell you about. This is just in, L.A.'s police chief telling CNN tonight they are looking into Michael Jackson's prescription drug use as part of their investigation into his death. Right now they are trying to determine if it was an accidental overdose or a homicide that killed the pop star. We're going to have that interview very shortly.
Plus, Janet Jackson trying to intervene to save her brother from drug abuse. We have also got that story.
But, first, here's what one of Jackson's longtime doctors told Larry King about his addiction.
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DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, JACKSON DERMATOLOGIST: I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany. And so he was using it with an anesthesiologist to go to sleep at night. And I told him he was absolutely insane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So, we have some breaking news to share with you right now in the Michael Jackson investigation.
The L.A. police chief, William Bratton, is telling CNN that, when the results of the toxicology reports are in, they will help investigators determine if Jackson's death was an accident or a crime. Also, "The Los Angeles Times" reporting the L.A. Coroner's Office has subpoenaed medical records and records from a number of Jackson doctors, including his dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein.
Just last night, Klein told our Larry King what he claims to have seen and done to try to help Jackson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Did Michael have an addiction you were aware of?
KLEIN: Michael, at one time, had an addiction. And he went to England and he withdrew that addiction at a secure setting, where he went off of drugs altogether.
And what I told Michael when I met him in this present situation when I was seeing him, that I had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on, because he came to me with a huge tolerance level.
KING: Did Michael tell you he used Diprivan?
KLEIN: I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany. And so he was using it, with an anesthesiologist, to go to sleep at night. And I told him he was absolutely insane. I said you have to understand that this drug, you can't repeatedly take. Because what happens with narcotics, no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And, now, CNN's Ted Rowlands just spoke with L.A. Police Chief William Bratton, this tape just coming into us right now.
Listen to what he told us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE CHIEF: Well, the inquiry into the death of Mr. Jackson is continuing. We will still await corroboration from the coroner's office as to the cause of death. That is going to be very dependent on the toxicology reports that are due to come back. And, based on those, we will have an idea of what it is that we're dealing with.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ted Rowlands joining us right now, along with Drew Griffin from our Special Investigations Unit.
And -- and, Ted, the L.A. police chief confirming for the first time they are looking into Jackson's drug abuse, that it could have both been, or, rather, been either an accidental overdose or homicide. Give us more detail on what he told you. I know you just talked to him.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
Basically, Campbell, what he's saying is, they have a far- reaching investigation, meaning they're preparing for what he called -- quote -- "the worst-case scenario," meaning that they're going out there assuming that this could come back as a potential homicide.
They're investigating on that level. And then they're going to wait to see what the coroner says. They're working with the DEA and the attorney general here in California. If they have questions about where certain drugs come, it goes to the DEA. They will run it.
And they're also, as Bratton said, looking at these doctors who were around him and investigating that track as well, all of it, though, contingent on what the coroner does. In fact, Bratton said to me, really, the coroner has the next move in this whole thing. We're ready to go whatever way needs -- that we need to go. But it is up -- that the coroner has the next move.
BROWN: And, again, Ted, the timing on that or the anticipated timing on that?
ROWLANDS: According to the coroner's office this afternoon, they say they're still looking at about two weeks they need, two weeks before their final report is completed.
BROWN: All right. Let me bring Drew in, because, Drew, you have some new information for us as well. I know you have learned that Jackson's family did take some steps in the final years of his life to try to help him or get him help with his addictions. Tell us what you know.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, you know, this has been alluded to before in some tabloid reports. But now we're hearing from two sources that early in 2007, Campbell, Michael Jackson had just returned to the United States. He was kind of in a self-exile living over in Bahrain and in Ireland after his acquittal on those molestation charges.
He comes back to Las Vegas to study the Celine Dion kind of permanent Vegas show, thinking about that. Janet Jackson hadn't seen him in a while and went to visit him, and was really shocked, frightened, according to one source.
He was living in this rented home that was almost barren of furniture. And according to our sources, Jackson found -- Janet Jackson found her brother thin and disheveled. She was so shocked by that that when she came back to Las Vegas in February with a couple of her brothers -- this was for the NBA All-Star weekend -- she convinced them to -- let's all go over and see Michael Jackson and try to stage an intervention to try to have him confront his drug abuse problem.
We're told that the security for Michael Jackson actually prevented Janet Jackson and her brothers from entering. And at the same time, Katherine Jackson, his mom, was trying to call him on the phone. He simply was not taking the phone calls.
BROWN: And, Drew, we have heard friends of Michael Jackson's say that they tried to get him to quit. I mean, how did he respond really when people close to him did try to intervene?
GRIFFIN: I think Ted and I have both talked to people who have had this experience. And from our sources, it was the same with his family. He would basically just shut you out if you approached him to talk about drug problems. He wasn't mean. He was a very kind person, from what he would say.
He would give you lip service, say yes, yes, yes. But then he would just stop taking your calls. He would stop seeing you. The source says if you tried to deal with him, he would shut you out and you just wouldn't hear from him for long periods of time. BROWN: All right. Drew Griffin and Ted Rowlands, who are going to be back a little later in the show, will have more to report on this.
But we want to turn right now to a man known all over Hollywood for his work helping celebrities to get clean and sober. His clients have ranged from Lindsay Lohan to Mike Tyson. And there are reports even the Jackson family approached him.
Howard Samuels runs the Wonderland Center in Los Angeles. And he's joining us tonight.
Welcome to you, Dr. Samuels.
HOWARD SAMUELS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WONDERLAND CENTER: Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: I do want to ask you about those reports that you were in contact with Michael Jackson's family to try to get him some help. Can you confirm that?
SAMUELS: No. All my conversations and all my clients are all confidential. And I cannot talk about any of that.
But I can talk about the process of addiction.
BROWN: Well, let's speak more broadly then, because we just heard from Drew Griffin that Janet Jackson had tried to stage an intervention of sorts, but that Michael Jackson refused to speak with her, refused to take calls from his mother.
Is that typical behavior, I guess, for a long-term drug addict?
SAMUELS: Without question.
You know, families -- it's so important for families to continue interventions on the people that they love. And the addict will do everything possible to run from the family, not take phone calls, to cut communication, because, when their drugs are threatened, then their whole existence is threatened, because they're so dependent on the drug itself.
BROWN: So, given his resistance, if you had had an intervention or if you had been asked to do an intervention for Michael Jackson, like you have done with so many celebrities, what would you do? What could you say? What might have worked?
SAMUELS: Well, first of all, in any intervention, the power is with the family.
If you don't have any financial power over the addict, then the only power you have is emotional leverage. And so in doing an intervention on somebody, you have to bear -- the family to come in and to try to hit some kind of emotional connection with the client where they can have an understanding that their drug is blocking that intimacy and that love from their families and from the people that care about them the most.
I mean, I'm a recovering addict myself, and I'm 24 years clean and sober. My family saved my life by doing an intervention on me. They continued to intervene. And the only way they were able to get through to me was being able to hit that emotional chord that I was so sick and I was so damaged during that time.
BROWN: We have heard so many reports about the people around him who were enabling him, it's charged. What do you think about the people who surround Michael Jackson or from what we know? Because presumably this applies to a lot of celebrities who have drug problems.
SAMUELS: Right.
BROWN: Is this the biggest obstacle to getting help?
SAMUELS: Oh, it's horrible.
I mean, when you have somebody that has so much money, so much fame, they surround themselves with a minion, of individuals that will help that addict continue in their addiction. They will get drugs. They will lie. They will do whatever they can to protect the celebrity, because if they don't do what the celebrity asks them to do, then they're out of a job. And then they are replaced with somebody else.
So, it's -- you know, you have these people -- it's like the cult of celebrity -- that need to be around these individuals. And they don't care how they do it. They don't even really care about the individual. They just care about the -- quote -- "celebrityness" of it.
BROWN: Again, the breaking news tonight, we just want to update people, L.A. police chief concern -- confirming, rather, for the first time that they are looking into Jackson's drug abuse, that it could have been an accidental overdose or homicide, a very broad investigation.
But we have an interview with the LAPD chief, Bratton. Just moments away, we are going to play that for you in full.
Let me say thank you to Dr. Samuels for joining us tonight.
SAMUELS: You're welcome.
BROWN: I really appreciate your time and your insight on this issue.
SAMUELS: Absolutely.
BROWN: When we come back, former football star Steve McNair murdered by his 20-year-old mistress. Now some of his teammates are talking about what might have led him astray.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What people fail to realize is that, when you make a transition away from the game, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you go through something. You change. And you're constantly searching for something.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're going to take a look now at some of the other must- see stories of the day.
Here with tonight's "Download," Erica Hill.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Campbell.
The U.S. military says two Marines were killed yesterday fighting in a major operation in Afghanistan's Helmand Province. The Defense Department also released this video of a firefight that took place there today with Marines and Afghan troops taking on insurgents. There's no word on any casualties from that action.
Also today, 15 Afghan students among 25 people killed by a truck bomb near Kabul. The Taliban deny any responsibility.
Democrats in Congress say the CIA has intentionally misled lawmakers for years and that new CIA Director Leon Panetta admitted it in closed-door testimony before the House Intelligence Committee last month. But what is not exactly clear here is just what information the CIA is accused of withholding. Republicans, meantime, say those accusations are simply meant to protect Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who claims the CIA didn't tell her about its use of waterboarding.
The man appointed to fill Barack Obama's U.S. Senate seat will not election to a full term, a Democratic source telling CNN Illinois Senator Roland Burris won't run in 2010. He has struggled to raise campaign funds and his ties to ousted Governor Rod Blagojevich of course don't help.
Transit officials in D.C. cracking down -- Metro operators caught texting on the job, as this one appears to be doing, will be fired. This YouTube video was actually from a couple weeks before that recent Metro crash which killed nine people. There is no evidence the operator of that train was texting.
A Boston T operator was indicted for gross negligence, though, yesterday, accused of texting just before a crash that injured dozens back in May.
And finally, just months after being suspended from competition for smoking pot, Michael Phelps is the fastest swimmer in the world again. A couple of hours ago, Phelps broke the world record in the 100-meter butterfly at the U.S. National Championships. Phelps now holds five individual world records and 14 Olympic gold medals, just in case you're keeping track there. I see you updated your tally.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I did. No long-term damage there for him either, that's good news.
HILL: Apparently not.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: I know. Moving on.
Erica Hill for us tonight -- Erica, thanks.
Again, the breaking news we want to update you on, we had -- or we have been told that cardiac arrest had been the cause of Michael Jackson's death. But now the L.A. police chief is using the words possible homicide and possible overdose. We have got an exclusive interview with Chief Bill Bratton. And this is moments away.
Plus, a reporter covering a hostage crisis becomes part of the story when the suspect calls her. You are going to see it play out on video shortly. .
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The only ones I want to die are cops. That's it. I don't want anyone else to die, just cops. The cops challenge me, they try to take me, and six to eight cops lose their life. And, then, of course, I die. To me, that would be the ultimate success.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're going to be updating you shortly on some breaking news.
We have an interview now with the L.A. police chief talking about Michael Jackson's death, possible overdose or homicide, what exactly they're looking into.
Ted Rowlands spoke with him just a short time ago. We are going to have that for you coming up very shortly here.
But, first, we want you to take a look at this. This is the scene outside of a Nashville funeral home, where thousands of fans waited today to pay their respects to Steve McNair. His memorial service is expected to begin any moment, actually. Police say the ex- NFL quarterback was shot in his sleep last week by his 20-year-old girlfriend, who then killed herself.
His tragic death is making headlines and raising a whole lot of questions.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In private, McNair was taking a serious and unexpected risk. A married man with children, McNair was seeing 20-year-old Sahel Kazemi. These pictures of the couple snapped recently by TMZ. Her family said the relationship had been going for more than five months.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was that waitress Sahel Kazemi, who they even snapped a picture with. She would be the one to pull the trigger on her boyfriend, retired NFL quarterback Steve McNair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And the very first thing she asked me, have you ever been in love?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McNair was found in a seated position on a sofa with multiple gunshot wounds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I did a regional preliminary examination, I could only see three gunshot wounds to the victim.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kazemi's body was at the foot of the sofa face down with a single gunshot wound to the head. A weapon was under her body.
MATTINGLY: Former NFL running back Eddie George tells me the man who was murdered was not the Steve McNair he had known since 1996.
EDDIE GEORGE, FORMER TENNESSEE TITANS RUNNING BACK: Underneath it all, he was in search of filling a void.
MATTINGLY: George believes his old friend was having a crisis of his own, maybe struggling with life after football.
GEORGE: What people fail to realize is that when you make a transition away from the game, emotionally, physically, mentally, spiritually, you go through something. You change. And you're constantly searching for something.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When athletes suddenly find themselves out of the spotlight, it does seem a lot of them run into trouble. And joining us right now to talk about why that happens and what happened or may have happened in this case is Hall of Fame quarterback Warren Moon. During his rookie season, Steve McNair was often compared to Warren Moon. And also joining me is journalist and sports analyst Stephen A. Smith, as well.
Warren, let me start with you. You had heard that McNair was having trouble, that he was having a lot of problems in retirement. Tell us what you had heard.
WARREN MOON, PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME (via telephone): Not that he was having a lot of problems, but he was just trying to figure out what he wanted to do next with his life. And that happens to a lot of guys, especially when retirement comes abruptly.
Steve, I'm sure, still wanted to play football but because of injuries, he had to give up the game. And I'm sure he wasn't really prepared for what he wanted to do after football was over. Plus, it's just -- even when you are prepared for what you want to do afterwards, it's still an adjustment period for you because this is something you've been doing probably since you were a little kid. And every fall all the way through the winter that's what your body is known for doing.
It's a high that you get from playing sports not only physically but also emotionally and mentally that you can never find again in regular life. You can't find the combination of all those different things. So you're always searching for that next big challenge in your life. And I'm sure Steve was at that point.
He probably had a lot of time on his hands because he was retired and a lot of players need that structure of football that they've had for so long in order to keep their mind from wandering and maybe doing some of the wrong things.
BROWN: Well, did you experience that? I mean do you have a firsthand sense for that? About what that transition was like. Obviously, you do on some level.
MOON: You know I was very fortunate I got to play a long time and I left on my own terms. But, you know, even after I left the game, I felt like I was going to take some time off and not do anything. And I found myself very bored and I wanted to get busy again, because you're used to being busy, especially that time of the year.
And even though I had a lot of opportunities out there because I was, you know, a successful quarterback while I played, unless you have a passion for something you find yourself searching on what it is that you want to do and you find yourself out there. This is a lot of time on your hands and a lot of thinking.
So I went through that as well. But fortunately, you know, I've got myself involved in a lot of different things that keep me very busy. And that time didn't last very long for me.
BROWN: Stephen, you know, by all accounts, McNair was one of the good guys. I mean, this is a guy who had a sterling reputation. I mean, no one would have expected that this would have happened to him, would they?
STEPHEN A. SMITH, JOURNALIST, SPORTS ANALYST: I don't think anybody would have anticipated that he would have ended up getting murdered. But I don't think that you ever go as far as to say you don't think something like this would happen in terms of him being involved with somebody else, because you simply never know what's going on in somebody else's bedroom.
I don't care if you're a football player or you're the governor of South Carolina, it really doesn't matter. You just don't know. And when you think about somebody like Steve McNair, you got to think about the transition that he had to make and what transpired throughout his career prior to that retirement. It's not just about what you've accomplished. It's about all the adulation that you received along the way, the people that come into your life because of the success that you have enjoyed, the attention that you've garnered, the reputation that you have built.
And when it's all over, and when you fade from the spotlight, what happens is that you start questioning not just yourself but the people around you to some degree in term of what their intent was in regards to their role in your life and more importantly, you start questioning your own identity. Who am I? And where do I go from here? And that's an extremely difficult transition for a lot of people to make, not just athletes, but any successful professional.
BROWN: Well, Warren, to that point that Stephen just made, I mean McNair was killed by this woman who he was having an affair with. And as a player in the public eye, I mean, do you become suspicious or how suspicious do you become of some of the people that surround you?
MOON: Well, you're taught that at a very early time coming into pro football about things like that. They have a rookie symposium that sits all the rookies down for a number of days and kind of goes through all the different cautions to look out for as they become professionals in life. And you should be aware of that anyway.
And a lot of guys kind of, you know, vacuum themselves with guys that they grew up with. And sometimes the guys that you surround yourself with that came from the same neighborhoods as yourself aren't going in the same direction as you. So sometimes that's not a good thing either to surround yourself with guys that you grew up with unless they're on the same path that you are.
So you find a lot of guys getting in trouble just because of guilt by association. So it's a fine line that you have to find that you don't want to dissociate with people that you grew up with for a long time and had loyalty with, but you also have to make sure that they're quality people that are going to be around you and make sure they don't look at you or make you look in a bad light. So it's a tough situation there for the people that you hang out with as well.
And then there's people coming at you from all different directions because they want to befriend you because of the status that you have.
BROWN: Right.
MOON: So, yes, you have to be very, very careful with your associations.
BROWN: Well, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on this, Warren. Warren Moon joining us tonight there on the telephone, and Stephen Smith from Philadelphia as well. Thanks, guys, really appreciate it.
MOON: Thank you, Campbell.
SMITH: Thank you. BROWN: And breaking news, again, to update you on tonight in the Michael Jackson investigation. Los Angeles police Chief William Bratton saying for the very first time that the pop star's death may have been an overdose or a homicide. They are investigating both. They are focusing their investigation. We'll have more details coming up.
We have an interview, an exclusive interview with Chief Bratton. We'll be back in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Now back to tonight's breaking news in the Michael Jackson investigation. Los Angeles police chief, Bill Bratton, telling CNN's Ted Rowlands just a little bit ago that the department is waiting for toxicology test results to determine whether Jackson's death was a result of an accidental overdose or a homicide. We're going to play this full interview for you right now. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHIEF WILLIAM BRATTON, LOS ANGELES POLICE: Well, the inquiry into the death of Mr. Jackson is continuing. We will still await corroboration from the coroner's office as to the cause of death. That is going to be very dependent on the toxicology reports that are due to come back. And based on those, we'll have an idea of what it is that we're dealing with.
Are we dealing with a homicide? Are we dealing with an accidental overdose? So, what are we dealing with? So, as we're standing here speaking, I can't tell you because I don't have that information.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wait until the coroner is finished or you don't need to wait until their report is out, to change the classification of the investigation?
BRATTON: We have a very comprehensive and far reaching investigation which has been pretty widely reported in the media that we're looking at, his prescription drug history, the doctors that he's dealt with over the years. We have the cooperation of the DEA and the state attorney general's office who keeps those records. So those are being looked at by our personnel.
At the time of the death with search warrants, they've seized a number of items from the residence in which the death occurred. And those will assist in the investigation as it moves forward.
ROWLANDS: Do you have a sense of the classification of death, classification (ph) to homicide. What needs to take place?
BRATTON: That would actually be the coroner's determination. He makes the determination as to the nature of the death.
ROWLANDS: The definitive cause of death to change the investigation? BRATTON: In terms of -- we move forward in a variety of ways with our investigation which is in many respects a comprehensive set of inquiries so that no matter which way the coroner's finding will go, the multiple findings he may make, we'd be in a position to not have lost time, if you will, waiting for that report. So we're not marking time waiting for his report.
We're gathering based on our experience in these matters. And unfortunately, Los Angeles we have a lot of experience with death investigations that we've got very good investigators. So they'll be prepared to deal with what the coroner's findings may be.
ROWLANDS: Getting cooperation from all the doctors?
BRATTON: I won't speak to the intimacies of the investigation. That's not our policy. But we are, as has been reported in the media, speaking to and will be seeking to speak to a number of the physicians that attended Mr. Jackson over the years that he's being treated.
ROWLANDS: Finally, you know, because people think oh, homicide investigation or doctors, there's a clear difference is there not possibly an intent and possible charges. And just because the investigation is going one way doesn't mean some physicians are going to be thrown in jail.
BRATTON: I'm not even going to speak to that. We'll wait to see what the coroner comes back with. And then once he comes back with his determination, we'll be able to speak to in a much clearer and in a very open way what our course of action will be. But I'm not going to speculate at this time. We're going to wait until he comes back with his findings.
He has his role and responsibility. We have our role and responsibility. But the next move really is his.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Ted Rowlands is with me now joining us live who just spoke there to Chief Bratton.
And, Ted, give us a broader sense of what else he may have said and what else you've learned today.
ROWLANDS: Basically, what Chief Bratton did say is that they are assuming, as he called it, the worst case scenario, which will be obviously a murder or homicide with intent. That's their assumption as they go through this investigation. Because if the coroner comes back and says, yes, this is homicide, they want to have all their ducks in a row. They want to have done the investigation. So they're proceeding on that level.
Now, if the coroner comes back and says the tox results don't prove anything and the cause of death is accidental or natural, what have you, well, then, all of their work, they don't use it but they had it. So that's really the mentality of the police. And you heard the last thing he said was, it's the coroner's next move. BROWN: And, Ted, there is also a report that the family may be looking at burying the body at Neverland after all. What do we know about that?
ROWLANDS: Well, according to the state of California, a representative from the family, a lawyer, on Thursday called up to see what needed to be done to bury Michael Jackson at Neverland. Basically, it's a two-pronged process from the state's point of view. All you have to do is fill out a two-page application and give the state $400 and basically, you have the license to build a mini cemetery on your private land.
Now, the hurdle could be Santa Barbara County if they move forward with this. And Santa Barbara County says they've never dealt with this in their entire history. So they really don't know what they're going to do if the Jacksons come to them. But at this point, nobody from the Jackson family or any representatives have come to the county and said we would like to bury Michael Jackson at Neverland.
BROWN: All right. Ted Rowlands for us tonight with the very latest information in that exclusive interview with Chief Bratton. We will see whether this does, in fact, turn into a criminal investigation.
Ted, thanks very much.
A Connecticut couple's divorce nearly turned deadly this week when a man held his ex-wife hostage. He called a reporter during the siege. She recorded everything. You're going to hear it in a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This next story is almost too incredible, even if it were a movie plot. But it is real. A lot of it caught on tape.
Police say this man kidnapped his ex-wife. He held her at gunpoint for most of the day, holding off police by threatening to blow up the house. Well, luckily she escaped and he later set fire to the house which burned to the ground.
During the standoff, the suspect, Richard Shenkman, repeatedly called a local newspaper reporter. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN FLORIN, "THE DAY" NEWSPAPER: What made you call me?
RICHARD SHENKMAN, HOSTAGED HIS WIFE: I trust you.
FLORIN: You do trust me?
SHENKMAN: I do absolutely. I think you're a good reporter. I think you mean well.
The only one I want to die are cops, that's it. I don't want anybody else to die, just cops. To me a success, this would be -- this would be the ultimate success. I get my 12 demands, Nancy walks out of here. The cops challenge me and try to, try to take me and, you know, six to eight cops lose their life after. And then, I die. To me that would be the ultimate success.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Karen Florin who writes for "The Day" in New London, Connecticut is joining us right now.
Karen, first off, you had a little bit of history with this man. You did know Richard Shenkman sort of socially or casually, I guess. What on earth is going through your mind that this is happening?
KAREN FLORIN, "THE DAY" NEWSPAPER: I was panicked that he was going to kill his wife and kill himself and take anybody else out that he could possibly take out. He was crazed.
BROWN: Did you based on what you knew of him because as I said, you did know him. Did you think he was unstable? I mean, you were very concerned this could go in any direction, huh?
FLORIN: I'm the court reporter here. And I've been covering his nasty divorce and an arson case. And he's been growing increasingly unstable and had promised me during several other phone calls that something big was going to happen.
BROWN: Richard Shenkman called you four times that day. And at three of those times he actually did let you speak to his ex-wife, Nancy. And I want to play for our viewers some of that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SHENKMAN, TOOK EX-WIFE HOSTAGE: Whatever you want to say, Nancy, I don't want this to be that I'm controlling you what to say. Karen is a friend. You can say anything you want to say to Karen.
NANCY, RICHARD SHENKMAN'S EX-WIFE: They don't want either of us to be hurt. I want both of us to come through this and move on.
SHENKMAN: I don't want to take innocent people's lives.
FLORIN: Well, then, why are you -- why do you have your wife there? Your ex-wife?
SHENKMAN: Because she had her head on my shoulder, and I waited three years for that, and this was worth it. On my last day, it was worth it to me.
There's nothing at risk to have a priest at the police station giving her her last rites.
FLORIN: I don't understand why you want a priest to give her her last rights if you're not going to harm her. SHENKMAN: Because they're going to harm her. They're going to do this. They're going to call my bluff. They're going to storm the house. They're not going to let me continue this much longer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: She -- yes, she had to have been terrified. What was your sense of how she was handling the situation?
FLORIN: I thought it was amazing that she was composed enough to string together sentences, honestly. And I was so happy that he put her on the phone so that she had a voice and she had a say in what was going on as well.
BROWN: And, Karen, Nancy did eventually escape. Explain how she escaped and what -- quickly what happened after that last phone call.
FLORIN: OK. Well, I guess they had sent a mechanical robot up to the front door and it freaked out Richard and he went to go investigate noises and pulled her down into a bunker and chained her to a wall. And when he went to investigate the noise, she unscrewed it, broke loose and ran for her life. She said she was afraid he was going to come up behind her and shoot her in the back of the head.
BROWN: Wow. Karen, I got to give you credit for staying so calm while all this is happening and giving her time or, you know, the police time to deal with this. And the facial expressions were worthy as well.
Karen Florin from "The Day" in New London, Connecticut, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
FLORIN: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: Coming up in tonight's "Money and Main Street" report, you're going to see how a little ingenuity is giving a unique coffee shop just the right jolt.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We keep looking for signs that we are getting out of this recession. And new numbers show fewer people are being laid off. We're also finding some inspiring stories. Americans saving jobs by thinking outside the box or in this case, outside the coffee cup.
Senior correspondent Allan Chernoff has tonight's "Money and Main Street."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It all started with a left wing radical activist who wanted to create what he calls the anti-Starbucks, a communal cafe, bookstore, debate parlor and performance space.
"Vox Pop" he called it, short for "voice of the people" in Latin. SANDER HICKS, VOX POP FOUNDER: My vision was to create a place that people could come together and voice their opinions and share and cross pollinate. And so, you know, across the political spectrum.
CHERNOFF: In one of the most diverse neighborhoods in the country, Brooklyn's Ditmas Park, Vox Pop was becoming the people's cafe. But just as the recession was taking hold, Sander opened a second location in Manhattan.
HICKS: The recession bit me in the butt. I literally saw the economy come grinding down to a halt in front of me.
CHERNOFF: Enter Debi (ph) Ryan, a friend of a friend with a smattering of non-profit business experience. Debi had the Manhattan cafe closed. Yet Vox Pop was $190,000 in debt, behind on rent, taxes, and fines for health code violations.
DEBI RYAN: The soundest business decision would have been throw- in the towel, file a bankruptcy, call it quits.
CHERNOFF (on camera): Instead of a bailout, Vox Pop found its rescue in a buy-in, a community buy-in. The cafe sold stock to its customers for $50 a share and in ten days raised $64,000.
(voice-over): Nearly 200 people invested to keep their cafe open. Families like the Mitchells who put in more than $1,000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What this place provided was unique to the neighborhood.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I consider it a good investment for my neighborhood, for me, for my kids, for my coffee addiction.
CHERNOFF: Shareholders are a long way from seeing a profit. Vox Pop is still paying off debt. But investors say they couldn't be happier because communal capitalism has allowed them to keep the voice of the people alive.
Allan Chernoff, CNN, Brooklyn, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And there are plenty of other businesses finding unique ways to buck the recession. For example, check out cnn.com/moneyandmainstreet.
That does it for us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" coming up next.
