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Campbell Brown

Few Jobs Lost; Pakistan's Leader Possibly Killed; Gym Killer Leaves Behind Eerie Videos; Double Amputee Skydives; Director John Hughes Dies at 59; Voter Shoutdowns at Town Halls Regarding Health Care; Husband Says Wife Was Not Drunk

Aired August 07, 2009 - 20:00   ET


DANIEL SCHULER, DIANE SCHULER'S HUSBAND: She's not an alcoholic. Listen to all that. She is not an alcoholic.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight the story behind the tragedy.

And the Manson family killers, should any of them go free?

MANSON: Granted, I have committed one of the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind and I realize that. I'm very remorseful for that. I would give anything if I could pay for it.

BROWN: I'll talk to the man who put them all behind bars.

Plus the picture you've just got to see. Hillary Clinton gets down in Kenya.

ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN Primetime begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.

BROWN: Hi, everybody. Those are our big questions tonight. We're going to start as we always do with the "Mash-Up." It is of course our look at the stories making an impact right now. The moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all so you don't have to.

And our top story tonight. Significant news on the one economic indicator that people seem to really care about and that is jobs, jobs, jobs.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An unexpected dose of good news today about the economy suggesting the recession may be easing. The nation's unemployment rate dips 1.0 percent to 9.4 percent.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The number is out. And on the surface it's grim. 247,000 Americans lost their jobs in July. But experts were bracing for much worse. And that's the smallest number of job losses this country has seen in a year.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: 34-year-old Jason Polls who lost his job as a bank sales manager a year ago is already feeling better.

(On camera): So when do you start this job?




UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: He just got a new job in banking, though it comes with a $50,000 pay cut.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: And its latest survey of job postings on the Internet, is beginning to see a turn in some industries. Retail, the energy sector and transportation all showed small growth last month along with government hiring.


BROWN: All of this a bit of a boost for the White House. The president and his aides taking a mini victory lap but a cautious one and very much on message.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We received additional signs that the worst may be behind us.

ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I would describe today's report as the least bad report that we've had in a year.

CHRISTINA ROMER, CHAIR, WH COUNCIL OF ECONOMICS: The way I've been describing this is it's the least bad day we've had in a while.


BROWN: Wall Street also experiencing its least bad day of the year as stocks rally leading one economist to tell "The New York Times," quote, "The recession is dead. Long live the recovery."

Major news tonight out of Pakistan. Reports of an American air strike that has killed the country's top Taliban leader.


BLITZER: They think they got him. U.S. officials are increasingly confident that a top Taliban chief was killed by a U.S. missile strike in Pakistan. This terror rap sheet is a long one. And the death of Baitullah Mehsud would have a significant impact for Pakistan and for the U.S. war in Afghanistan.

CAL PERRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He was sleeping on the roof of a house. Actually staying with his father-in-law recovering. Baitullah Mehsud was known to have diabetes and kidney problems and he was -- he actually had an IV in his system and was getting some medical treatment at around 1:00 at night when this drone attack took place.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Pakistani huge intelligence, intelligence on the ground that helped guide that missile in. I'm told from U.S. officials with access to the latest intelligence that they have the signature. They knew that Baitullah Mehsud and that seven of his bodyguards are reported dead.


BROWN: And Mehsud long considered the mastermind behind the assassination of former Pakistani prime minister, Benazir Bhutto.

On to Pittsburgh now and a disturbing new glimpse into the mind of George Sodini. The man whose shooting rampage earlier this week left three women dead.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In videos posted on YouTube, Sodini had talked about what he wanted.

GEORGE SODINI, FITNESS CLUB SHOOTER: My objective is to be real and learn to be emotional and to -- you know to be able to emotionally connect with people.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: But he admitted that on any given day he hid from his emotions.

SODINI: And there you go. One more day. One more day turns into one more year.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: In the video tour of his house, we see this book, "How to Date Young Women for Men Over 35." The author is R. Don Steele who gives blunt advice to men on how to pick up women.

R. DON STEELE, AUTHOR: It's normal to be scared when you have been hurt by women in the past.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: At this seminar, found by GMA online, you see Steele telling men to be tough.

STEELE: Nice guy must die. I would say that's a problem with most of the guys in the room, that you're too nice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Sitting in wrapped attention, George Sodini. You also see Sodini in a pretend exercise on meeting women.


BROWN: Sodini's own blog revealing he planned his killing spree for months.

We go from the tragic to the truly inspiring. Soldier Dana Bowman lost both legs in a skydiving accident 15 years ago. Well, today, at Walter Reed Army Medical Center Bowman jumped into the sky once again. A message of hope to his fellow vets.

Watch this.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What an amazing sight this is. It's beautiful. Waiting to get -- yes, let's just watch.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There he is. Dana Bowman just landed here. How did it feel coming down here?

DANA BOWMAN, U.S. SOLDIER: It was awesome. You know, coming in to Walter Reed for Organizational day for the army, they took great care of me just like they're doing for our soldiers right now today.


BROWN: Bowman himself did his rehab also at Walter Reed.

And tonight, Gen-Xers around the country remembering the director who made high school seemed fun.


UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The man credited with creating the Brad Pack has died. 59-year-old John Hughes, director of films like "Sixteen Candles."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He set such a standard for what high school was going to be like. When I was watching those movies at 10 years old. When I got to high school I was like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just disappointed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... this is it?

KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: You remember "The Breakfast Club."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was your favorite John Hughes movie?







UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "Ferris Bueller's Day Off" was the best movie in the '80s. It's a classic hit. No doubt.


BROWN: And who's not a "Ferris Bueller" person?

Moving on to the punch line, courtesy of Jimmy Fallon, still having fun with Bill Clinton's rescue mission to North Korea. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY FALLON, HOST: You heard about the North Korea thing and Bill Clinton and all that stuff. It was an amazing story, he brought back the two journalists. Well, they -- North Korea, it turns out they were offered a meeting with Al Gore in exchange for the two American journalists, but Kim Jong-Il wanted to meet with Bill Clinton instead.

Al Gore said I have no hard feelings at all, and then he gained 70 pounds and grew a beard. It was really weird. It's odd but he did.


BROWN: Jimmy Fallon, everybody.

Tonight's the "Mash-Up." Coming up, tonight's "Newsmaker." Jermaine Jackson. We have the interview.

Plus, Sarah Palin weighing on the health care reform controversy. Controversy, she's calling Obama's plan, what Congress is doing, quote, "downright evil," while Rush Limbaugh is comparing Obama to Hitler and town hall meetings getting ugly.

A closer look at what is fueling the anger when we come back.


BROWN: The debate over health care reform getting ugly. Tonight, Sarah Palin posted a long statement on her Facebook page calling the Obama plan, quote, "downright evil." She says it would force her disabled son to stand in front of an Obama death panel in her words. Rush Limbaugh, meanwhile, going even further comparing the president to Hitler.


RUSH LIMBAUGH, THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW: Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate. His cabinet only met once, one day. That was it. Hitler said he didn't need to meet with his cabinet. He represented the will of the people.


BROWN: And the anger not just on talk radio. It's coming through loud and clear from some voters showing up at these congressional town halls turning them into shout fests. And we're going to look at the scene in Tampa, Florida. This is during a town hall co-hosted by Congresswoman Kathy Castor. Check this out.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody, back up.

(CROSSTALK) CROWD: Hear our voice! Hear our voice! Open that door! Open that door!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it is one of the key (INAUDIBLE) of what makes us who we are.


BROWN: What you're seeing there is Castor being escorted out of the room. She ultimately had to be taken out by security. So what exactly is going on here? How far will this actually go?

Karen Jaroch was at last night's protests and she is co-founder of the 9/12 Project in Tampa. We've also got down in Tampa, of course, Roland Martin, our political analyst joining us tonight in Washington. Republican strategist, Leslie Sanchez, and here in New York with me "Daily Beast" contributor, John Avalon, joining us as well.

Karen, I want to just talk to you for a minute and try to get a better sense of what's going on here. As we mentioned, you helped organization the event we just saw there, and I'm all for civic engagement. But explain to me what the point is of shouting down your congresswoman or congressman? Of yelling at them? I mean what does that really get you?

KAREN JAROCH, THE 9/12 PROJECT: Well, the point is not to shout down our congressman. The point is for us to be heard by our congressman.

BROWN: But Karen, not to -- I'll let you finish. But nobody was being heard there. I mean, you -- that was total chaos. Everyone yelling.

JAROCH: Right. Well, you mentioned that we -- why did we organize that? That was spontaneous. In fact, our group is a spontaneous group. We're a grassroots organization.

BROWN: Well, grassroots organization is what I meant. You organized to -- you know, at the grassroots level all these people to come together, right?

JAROCH: Right. I created a meet-up page for $10 and advertised the event that the OSA and MoveOn had -- and the Democratic executive committee had put on. I posted the same thing for the same amount of time and we outnumbered them 5-1.

BROWN: OK. But answer my question, if you wouldn't mind. What's the point of what we're watching there which is the people you brought together yelling at this congresswoman? Again, what does that get you?

JAROCH: Well, people are frustrated. Middle America feels disenfranchised. We are not being listened to. Our Congress people are rushing things through. I think I heard a gentleman the other day say, you know, they're rushing this thing through. It took Barack Obama six months to pick out a dog and here we have this rush to pass this health care reform? People are scared they're going to lose their health care. It's going to create huge deficits that are going to outlast my children. And there's no need to rush. This health care plan doesn't get started until 2013. There's other solutions and people aren't being heard. There's many free market solutions...


BROWN: Hold on. Hold on, Roland. I'm going to get to you guys in a minute. I want to talk to Karen here. Now Karen, here's what I don't understand. You say people aren't being heard. How can anyone be heard if this is your approach?

I mean the congresswoman is holding a town hall. She's there to listen to you and these throngs of people show up and they yell all at once. And how can -- how can anyone possibly listen to that?

JAROCH: Well, she wasn't there to listen to us. She was there to tell us her talking points.

BROWN: But how do you know that? Did you give her a chance?

JAROCH: Yes. She started in with her platitudes on this health care bill and said she was going to be there to answer questions but she left.

BROWN: Let me just ask you, Karen, if Congress doesn't get where you are and how you're feeling and your frustration and your anger about this, who does? Who are you listening to? Who's inspiring you right now?

JAROCH: Well, I get my news from a number of sources. I'm looking at...

BROWN: Who's the leader? Who were you looking to if you don't like your congresswoman?

JAROCH: We're grassroots. We're a local organization. There's nobody -- I'm not getting a dime from anybody. And Pelosi is trying to paint us...

BROWN: I'm not talking about money. I'm saying, who's your inspiration? Who do you think like this?

JAROCH: The news. You know what? Politico had a story about the deputy chief of staff telling people to hit him hard. If they come at you, hit them again harder. I mean these stories -- the White House is coming out with, you know, snitch on your neighbor if they're telling a health care story that we don't support. I mean there's all these things. just put out a memo today where they're paying $250,000. It says that we've hired skilled grassroots organizers and that they're building online tools to track events and make sure...

BROWN: OK. But... JAROCH: ... MoveOn members can come out.

BROWN: I don't...

JAROCH: And you know what, I pay $10 and we get 5-1...

BROWN: OK. I don't think you quite got my question. I'm just curious as to who, like, is there someone in the Republican Party, is there someone in the Democratic Party? Is there a person? Is there anyone who you think gets what how you're feeling right now?

JAROCH: You know, we get our news from a variety of sources. And we're not just Republican. We're not just Democrats. We are -- if you look at our organization, you're going to see a variety of Americans that are coming together. Democrats are frustrated with this. Republicans. We have a vast number of independents and the president is slipping in these independents. It's because they're trying to rush this through and they're not listening to the public.

BROWN: OK. Let me go to you, Roland. And just get your take on what you're seeing in these videos. I mean, clearly, you know, whether -- it doesn't to me matter whether this is organized at that national level or not. I mean, clearly there are a lot of people out there feeling angry and it's showing up in these forums.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Campbell, my parents were grassroots organizers. And so I have attended town hall meetings. I have attended meetings where members of Congress were there.

And I think these people are pathetic. I think it is ridiculous. How can you sit here and say we want to be heard when you're shouting? No one can hear you. If you don't believe in the president's health care plan, I think what you need to do is explain to the American people why we feel this way.

But standing here and pointing fingers and standing here and shouting and pushing and shoving. I mean you know what? I hate to go there. But the reality is Skip Gates was arrested for what these people were doing here.

This is absolutely ridiculous. You are not going to have a credible conversation. And you're not going to have people who might be on your side join you if you engage in this kind of ridiculous behavior.

BROWN: But let me give you a counterpoint to that. This is what Peggy Noonan wrote, John. Conservative writer, Peggy Noonan, that -- is defending these groups that are showing up saying when -- "What town hall meetings represent is a feeling of rebellion, uprising against change they don't believe in. And the Democratic response has been stunningly crude and aggressive. It has been to attack."

Have we been left with this really aggravated situation?

JOHN AVALON, THE DAILY BEAST: Look, I think Democrats do underestimate the anger that's out there. Independents are breaking with the Obama administration on deficits spending and big -- growth of big government. That's what some of these folks are reacting to.

But the real wake-up call needs to be in the Republican Party where the fringe is blurring with the base and there's a trickledown of Obama derangement syndrome from some of the influential figures out there who keep stirring the pot.

And hate is a cheap and easy recruiting tool.

MARTIN: That's right.

AVALON: But it can be hell in a democracy. And that's what's happening here.


BROWN: Leslie -- let me ask you, though, Leslie. You're also a Republican here. Plenty of Republicans who have conceded, frankly, that Rush Limbaugh has become, fairly or unfairly, like it or not, sort of the most influential voice in the Republican Party right now.

And you heard him just a moment ago comparing Obama's policies to Hitler. And this incendiary rhetoric, I mean, what is it doing?

LESLIE SANCHEZ, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I can't speak for what Rush is doing. And I think many people have sat in this seat can agree with that. I mean the big story that's getting missed here is that these are not professional organizers. These are individuals listening in many cases to local talk radio.

You have 97.1 in St. Louis that was very frustrated about Cash for Clunkers. They pushed to go to the Russ Carnahan town hall. These are not -- these are people who are -- don't know each other, who are coming together based on frustration. Many of them are proud, strong Americans, pay their taxes, concerned about future generations. Do not know all these tactics.

And who are they fighting against? They're going against unions who are stacking the rooms against them. They're going against people like that are very proficient at putting these kind of, you know, conversations together.

BROWN: Right.

SANCHEZ: I think that we have to give some flexibility. Let's be fair. Let's give some flexibility. Everybody knows shouting. This is not kindergarten, the playground. It's not going to work. But the frustration is real.

You can talk to companies that try to get people to organize like this. And they say unless the gasoline is there you can't light a match and get it going.

BROWN: Roland, go ahead.

SANCHEZ: The frustration is real. MARTIN: You know what -- first of all, Leslie also needs to have some realism here. The reality is, when we talk about these local talk shows. You have these conservative talkers who are largely on these stations driving this conversation.

But again, you're not going to have a credible conversation in this country about this particular plan if you engage in this behavior. Now, what you have is, according to our own poll, 37 percent of Obama supporters, they're not out here attending these rallies as well.

So you have the fringe elements who are going at it. But you cannot engage in the behavior of attacking a member of Congress, requiring security to walk them out of the room, and then you say, oh, you're not listening to me.

No, you're behaving in a ridiculous manner. And if any of these people had children, they will say how dare you, a child, act like this in public.

BROWN: Guys...

JAROCH: Well, I just -- can I jump in here because...

BROWN: Yes, go ahead but very quickly, Karen. We're almost out of time here.

JAROCH: It's been depicted that there was a lot of violence in there. The only violence that I saw was the union people going up to the door and manhandling a guy and ripping his shirt and scratching him. And the thing about you said, I didn't hear what Rush said. But I did hear what Pelosi said.

And she said when she was asked about our groups if she thinks that we're Astroturfs. She said well, they're carrying swastikas to town hall meetings. And then Obama, in the primaries, said to get in their faces when he was slipping in the polls with McCain, so...

BROWN: Right.


BROWN: All right, guys.


BROWN: Very many sides to this story certainly. And a lot of very strong feelings. I am sorry that we're out of time. But many thanks to all of you for joining us tonight. Appreciate the conversation.

Some breakout video tonight. Hillary Clinton getting down. The secretary of state lets loose in Kenya. A little bit of fun on Friday.

Plus, tonight's "Newsmaker" Jermaine Jackson. Listen to what he says about the young man that Joe Jackson says is Michael's secret son.


JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S BROTHER: I really don't know if he's his son or not. But the fact that he's been around Michael so much. Because I've seen pictures of him dressed just like Michael with the hat and the red shirt and everything. But if he's not his son, we're going to continue to give him love.



BROWN: Now a look at some of the other must-see stories of the day. Erica Hill here right now with tonight's "Download." Erica?

ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, good to see you tonight.

TV's hitman Billy Mays' cocaine use contributed to his sudden death. That according to an autopsy report. The 50-year-old pitchman died of a heart attack in June. A Florida medical examiner says Mays used cocaine just days before he died and they say it either caused or aggravated the heart disease that killed him.

High drama at a Long Beach, California high-rise today. Two window washers dangling from a 14-story building after a rope on their scaffolding broke. Their safety harnesses did their job, Leslie. Kept them from falling. One man, though, was left hanging for almost an hour before firefighters got him to safety.


Aerosmith summer tour in doubt after lead singer Steven Tyler's nasty fall from a stage. Amateur video posted on TMZ shows Tyler dancing, spinning, and then tumbling backwards off the stage Wednesday night in South Dakota.

Well, the show was stopped. The 61-year-old airlifted to the hospital. It turns out, Tyler broke his shoulder, he needed stitches in his head but is expected to recover.

And finally, on a lighter note, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton dancing in the name of diplomacy. There she is with some Kenyan dancers at a dinner party in Nairobi on Wednesday. This, of course, one of stops at her seven-nation tours through Africa.

Secretary Clinton in her moves. She looks like she's having a great time. I have to say.

BROWN: She's really throwing herself into it.

HILL: She is.

BROWN: Got to give her credit.

HILL: It's never -- you know, that's always the most awkward video I would imagine for any politician when they have to go visit a country and they end up doing the dance. And they know it's not going to turn out well. It's like late-night fodder.

BROWN: But she's pulling it off really well. And sort of halfway through it.

HILL: Yes.

BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) you just look awkward but she's not. She went for it.

HILL: Strong (INAUDIBLE) in there.

BROWN: All right. Go, Secretary Clinton. Erica, thanks.

Police say that this suburban mom who drove the wrong way who crashed that minivan full of children was drunk and had smoked marijuana before the accident. So why does her husband say this?


SCHULER: I go to bed every night knowing -- and listen to this. I go to bed every night knowing my heart is clear. She did not drink. She's not an alcoholic. Listen to all that. She is not an alcoholic. My heart is rested every night when I go to bed. Something medically had to have happened.



BROWN: It seems to defy logic. A suburban mother driving the wrong way in a minivan full of kids slams head on into an SUV in broad daylight. Eight people were killed in that accident and then came the horrifying news that the mother was drunk on the equivalent of 10 shots of vodka and that she had smoked marijuana.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A 36-year-old mother Diane Schuler drove the wrong way for nearly two miles on a New York highway with five children inside her minivan. They struck an SUV with three adults head on. Eight people were killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Diane Schuler had a blood alcohol content of .19 percent. The legal limit for intoxication in New York state is .08 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A grieving husband defends his wife who investigators say was drunk and high when she caused a crash that killed eight people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She did not drink. She is not an alcoholic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Schuler's attorney, Dominic Barbara, claims there could be other reasons Diane Schuler became disoriented. A stroke, diabetes, even suggesting the abscess in her mouth and the suspicious bump on her leg were clues of a major medical problem. On Wednesday, lawyers for three of the victims in the other vehicle raced doubts about how Schuler's family didn't know about her condition.

IRVING ANOLIK, VICTIM'S ATTORNEY: I believe that there's a strong fragrance of criminality in this matter. It's inconceivable that nobody in the deceased driver's family was aware of the fact that she had a drinking problem or a drug problem.


CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: So could she have hidden her drinking, her drug use from her family? That's tonight's big question.

Howard Samuels, executive director of the Wonderland Drug treatment center with us. A CNN legal analyst, Lisa Bloom and Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, who's a board certified in internal medicine joining us as well.

Dr. Rodriguez, let me ask you, possible at all what this family is claiming? I mean, they've been through a laundry list here -- diabetes, a mystery bump in the leg, a problem with her tooth, a stroke. I mean, is any of this -- could any of this have possibly driven this in some way?

DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: Well, let me tell you from what I've seen from the autopsy reports, I don't think that's possible. You can't ignore the evidence of the fact that there was 2 1/2 legal limits of alcohol in this woman's blood. But more compelling, there was approximately six grams of alcohol in her stomach which meant that she must have consumed alcohol at least within half an hour to one hour of the accident and otherwise there was no sign of stroke. An autopsy in the brain, there was no hemorrhaging in the brain. And diabetes, even if you have low blood sugar, you probably wouldn't have gone for two miles driving on the wrong side of the road. So the evidence that I've seen, Campbell, does not coincide with anything other than alcohol use.

BROWN: Not to mention what was in her blood or what was in her stomach, Howard, as Dr. Rodriguez just said, but also a bottle of vodka found at the crash site. Is it possible that this woman was an alcoholic and her family was in denial or she could have kept it from them?

HOWARD SAMUELS, WONDERLAND CENTER: Well, I mean, Campbell -- I mean this is such a classic case of denial of alcoholism being played out on the national stage. I mean, not only was the woman obviously in denial that she had an issue but the family, I mean, just shocking, that they would come out and be in denial of this woman having any kind of issue. It is not normal that a woman out on a Sunday outing with her children would drink or smoke marijuana. That is a problem.

BROWN: Terrifying problem. Lisa, you know, this accident killed eight people and to Howard's point, there's some talk of a civil suit. This family could theoretically be on the hook, I guess, for a lot of money. Is that why we're hearing some of the things come from them which sound like excuses, obviously?

LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I'm sure that there will be a wrongful death case against her estate. I don't know how much money is in the estate. And now that the family has an attorney, they're trying to come up with alternate theories for the crash.

Look, they're going to have to argue that the toxicology is just completely wrong, that the police planted that information. There's massive lab error. And that's extremely unlikely especially given that there'll never be a criminal trial here because the mom who was driving is deceased. So it doesn't make any sense that the police would have misbehaved in any way.

What does make sense is there's an empty bottle of vodka in the car. There's vodka in her stomach. There's high levels of blood alcohol in her and THC from the marijuana. She ingested the alcohol. She ingested the marijuana. The family either didn't know, didn't want to know, or they're fabricating at this point.

BROWN: And, Howard, just to follow up on your other point, I mean, you hear the family say she was a good mother. She never put her children in danger. I mean, do addicts realize, I guess, the risks that they're taking?

SAMUELS: You know, Campbell, I work with a lot of mothers who are alcoholics and they drive their children drunk. And they're good mothers but when you drink you're not a good mother and you become insane. And you do horrible things. And I have a lot of mothers in my practice, today, that are sober but live with that shame and guilt of what they did under the influence of alcohol.

BROWN: Guys, we have to end it there. But many thanks. Dr. Rodriguez, Howard Samuels and Lisa Bloom, as always, thank you.

SAMUELS: You're welcome. Thank you.

RODRIGUEZ: You're welcome. Thank you.

BROWN: Tonight's "Newsmaker," Jermaine Jackson. He's going to answer the question many including police want to know about his brother, Michael. That's when we come back.


Tonight's "Newsmaker" Jermaine Jackson. His first interview since his younger brother's memorial service. Now a "LARRY KING" exclusive. Jermaine talks about Michael's children and their last moments together and where he thinks the King of Pop should be buried.


JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S BROTHER: I want him at Neverland. And there's a question -- there's a question but still --

LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Why can't you? She's your mother. So can't you say, hey, mom? JACKSON: I'm not the only one, Larry. There's, like, so many.

KING: What does your mother say? Does she give you any hint?

JACKSON: Well, she's thinking about -- see, I'm most concerned about security and him being secured in a peaceful setting.

KING: So if you had a public place it would be like having a Presley initially. They had to move Presley's body to Graceland.

JACKSON: Yes. Yes. I'm most concerned about that. But at the end of the day, she'll make the final decision.


PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DAUGHTER: Daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just want to say I love him so much.


KING: How did you feel during that moment?

JACKSON: Well, she said it all. All the names they've called him and all the things they've said about him for so many years and she stepped up and said, daddy, he was a father. He was a wonderful father and he was a great human being. And she said it all. It wasn't planned.

KING: How are they doing?

JACKSON: They're doing fine. They're slowly -- but they're playing with my kids and they're coming back strong. They're doing fine.

KING: What do you make of the crime factor?

JACKSON: Well, I really don't know that much about it. But you, you can look at the kids and tell that they're Michael's kids and the fact that people come forth and they say things just to get attention, but those are definitely Michael's children.

KING: Do you think it's a good idea that Debbie Rowe is going to get some visitation?

JACKSON: Absolutely. She's -- I've spoken to her. We talk about horses because she has a ranch and I had a ranch before. But, yes, I think it's perfect. It's wonderful.

KING: What do you make of Omar? He reportedly denies he is Michael's son. He was seated with the Jackson family during the Staple Center service. And there are also photos from this weekend of Omar out with Prince and Blanket as well as Jermaine's sons, Your Majesty (ph) and Jaffar (ph). Who is he?

JACKSON: I would say he's probably someone who Michael really endeared and who wanted to just be a part of his life. And I really don't know if he's his son or not. But the fact that he's been around Michael so much, because I've seen pictures of him dressed just like Michael with the hat and the red shirt and everything. But if he's not his son, we're going to continue to give him love.

KING: You like him?


KING: Did you know or have knowledge of Michael being addicted to anything?


KING: You never discussed it?

JACKSON: Never. I've never seen him act abnormal around me or never known anything like that.

KING: Did you ever ask him about it?

JACKSON: No, because you could never --

KING: Why not?

JACKSON: That never came to my mind. But I'll tell you, if there was anything administered in my brother's body that was not in the proper setting, meaning a hospital, then that would be dealt with.

The last time I saw him we were singing a song together. And so I said, Michael, I love the way you did that. That song we were just singing. Baby don't make me, baby don't make me, baby don't make me fly away.

This song is so nice, and he was singing the harmony. And so we started singing harmony together. I said, Michael, I love what you did on that song. He said thank you. That means a lot coming from you.


BROWN: The entire Jermaine Jackson interview with Larry King coming up at the top of the hour.

But the next big question tonight, should any of the Manson family killers be released from prison? It's been 40 years since the grisly murders. Listen to what Manson's right hand man "Tex" Watson is saying now.


CHARLES "TEX" WATSON, CONVICTED MURDERER: And granted I have committed one of the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind, and I realize that. I'm very remorseful for that and would give anything if I could pay for it.


BROWN: Forty years ago this weekend, Charles Manson and his followers turned the summer of love into the summer of terror in Los Angeles. To this day, the Manson family's gruesome killing spree continues to frighten and to fascinate.

In tonight's "Breakout" story, CNN's Ted Rowlands finds four of Manson's former followers on the edge of old age, still in prison and forever haunted for what they did so long ago.


TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They shocked the world. Young, good looking American kids in their 20s, laughing about butchering their innocent victims. The Manson killers are now in their 60s.

"Tex" Watson, Leslie Van Houten, Patricia Krenwinkel and Susan Atkins, all disciples of a madman who turned them into monsters. Watson and Krenwinkel took part in all seven murders. Five at the home of actress Sharon Tate in Beverly Hills. Then the next day, they came to this house with Van Houten about ten miles away where they tortured and killed Leno and Rosemary LaBianca (ph).


LESLIE VAN HOUTEN, CONVICTED MURDERER: I stood in the stairway and looked into a blank (ph) room that was like a den. And I stood there until "Tex" turned me around and handed me a knife and he said, do something. I went back in the bedroom and Mrs. LaBianca was laying on the floor on her stomach and I stabbed her numerous times in the back.


ROWLANDS: Atkins was with Watson and Krenwinkel during the Tate murders holding down 8 1/2 month pregnant actress Sharon Tate as she pleaded for her and her child's life.

SUSAN ATKINS, CONVICTED MURDERER: She asked me to let her baby live.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What'd you say to her?

ATKINS: I told her that I didn't have any (INAUDIBLE).

ROWLANDS: How Manson convinced his flock to kill and torture without remorse baffled the world. Manson family members say it was a combination of charisma, drugs, and Manson's knack for recruiting the right group of vulnerable followers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was us. (INAUDIBLE) with our mouths open beat us, and he would be saying the things we had been thinking. We thought that he had an end to our very thoughts and our very hearts.

ROWLANDS: Atkins, Krenwinkel and Van Houten say they left broken homes. Watson would turn out to be Manson's right hand man. The faces of the Manson killers have gotten older. The courthouse smiles and giggles replaced with pleas for forgiveness.

SUSAN ATKINS, CONVICTED MURDERER: That I could even have been involved with something like that.

PATRICIA KRENWINKEL, CONVICTED MURDERER: It's terribly difficult to deal with this. (INAUDIBLE) because I feel terrible about it that I cannot change it no matter what I do. I cannot change one minute of my life.

CHARLES "TEX" WATSON, CONVICTED MURDERER: And granted I have committed one of the most heinous crimes in the history of mankind, and I realize that. And I'm very remorseful for that and would give anything if I could pay for it.

ROWLANDS: First sentenced to death, the Manson killers were given life sentences when the death penalty was abolished by the state Supreme Court. Charles Manson remains in prison and has over the years attended his parole hearings.

Susan Atkins has terminal brain cancer. Last year her request for compassionate release was denied. But she's scheduled for a parole hearing next month. Krenwinkel and Watson have parole hearings in before the end of the year, is not expected to have a hearing until 2010.

Forty years later, all four claim they're remorseful but the family of Sharon Tate doesn't believe any of them deserve the mercy that Sharon and her unborn child never saw.

Ted Rowlands, CNN, Los Angeles.


BROWN: Forty years later both the fascination and fear remain. Tonight we hear from the prosecutor who put the Manson family behind bars.


BROWN: It was the job of Vincent Bugliosi to stop the Manson family's reign of terror. He prosecuted Charles Manson and three of his followers on murder charges. They were all convicted and received death sentences that may have been carried out and if California had not overturned the death penalty. And Bugliosi's book about the case, "Helter-Skelter," became the best selling true crime book of all time.

Tonight as we approach the 40th anniversary of the Tate-LaBianca murders, Vincent Bugliosi joining us from Pasadena, California.

Welcome to you.


BROWN: So 40 years later still this obsessive subculture around Manson. I mean, you got to know him better than anybody. What explains the fascination?

BUGLIOSI: Well, there are many reasons. I think one reason is the sociological implication that the Manson murders may have sounded the death now for hippies and all they symbolically represented.

Joan Didion (ph) in her memoir of the era, "The White Album," she said that the '60s, the so-called decade of love, "ended abruptly on August the 9th, 1969, the night of the Tate murders." We have the fact that they may have murdered 35 people and already had plans to murder prominent personalities like Frank Sinatra, Liz Taylor, Steve McQueen et cetera.

The fact that the murders were incredibly brutal, 169 stab wounds. If I were to single out one reason, Campbell, above all others for the continuing fascination with this case at such a late day, the murders were probably the most bizarre in the recorded annals of American crime. And people for whatever reason are fascinated by things that are strange and bizarre.

I mean, Manson, himself, how many Charles Mansons are out there. The incredible motive for the murders, to start a war between blacks and whites. At the murder scene, the killers printed words from Beatles songs in blood. You've already touched on the fact that these killers came from young kids from average American homes. Totally different, completely different from what we would expect of mass murders.

So there's all types of reasons for the continuing fascination in this case. The very name Manson has come to become a metaphor for evil and for whatever reason, again, people are fascinated by evil. Evil has its allure.

BROWN: Talk -- talk a little more about the man, himself. He's serving a life sentence in prison. But according to reports, he hasn't participated in education, rehabilitation programs at all in prison. Is this someone you think is capable of remorse?

BUGLIOSI: No. No. He's a very evil, sophisticated con man and there's no question that when he was convicted in '71, if he wasn't, he would have continued to kill -- kill as many people as he could. He has an enormous hostility toward society and he used these people to vent his spleen on society for him.

BROWN: What about his followers?

BUGLIOSI: But even --

BROWN: Yes, go ahead. Finish your point.

BUGLIOSI: Well, I'm saying, even if he were capable of remorse and rehabilitation, that has nothing to do with justice and deterrence.


BUGLIOSI: If justice means anything in America, he should spend the rest of his life behind bars. And I asked the jury for the death penalty and they came back with a verdict of death. And as you know...

BROWN: Right.

BUGLIOSI: ... that was set aside. So rehabilitation does not apply here.

BROWN: Couldn't agree more. What about his followers, though? Let's talk about this because they've all been denied parole multiple times.

Susan Atkins now has terminal brain cancer, and her husband is pleading for her release. What do you think about that?

BUGLIOSI: Well, we don't have time to get into that but she's in a totally different category. Her left leg is amputated. Her right leg is paralyzed. She's got a couple months to live.

We shouldn't even talk -- I could talk to you about her, but it would take minutes. It's a totally different -- different situation. I can add a couple things by way of footnote.

It has nothing to do with her legal culpability. No question she's guilty. Aider and abettor, co-conspirator. However, in 1978, "Tex" Watson in his book said that I was wrong when I believed her. He said he stabbed Sharon Tate not Susan Atkins. And, by the way, Susan Atkins told me that she stabbed Sharon Tate to death. And I put her on the stand the next day at the grand jury before she went back to her god, Charles Manson, and she would not say that.

Another little point, she left her knife behind. She told two co- inmates of hers in L.A. and did not go back to get it. She thought of getting it. And a buck knife was found less than three feet from Sharon Tate and the LAPD examined the knife, of course. They found no blood or residue of blood on that blade. So it's a very complicated issue with Susan Atkins...

BROWN: Right.

BUGLIOSI: ... that we don't have time to get into.


BUGLIOSI: But none of them -- none of them should get out.

BROWN: I wish we had time. It's amazing, though, in all honesty, that here we are 40 years later and there's so much you can still talk about. And there is extraordinary fascination still with this case.

Vincent Bugliosi, we really appreciate your time and you coming on and chatting with us tonight. Thank you.

BUGLIOSI: Thank you.

BROWN: In Africa, a surprise dowry offer for Chelsea Clinton. Her mother's reaction in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Hillary Clinton sat down with CNN's Fareed Zakaria and he asked her about an unusual offer for Chelsea Clinton. Listen to the answer.


FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS": A Kenyan city councilman says he offered Bill Clinton 40 goats and 20 cows for his daughter's hand in marriage five years ago. He is still awaiting an answer and I thought on this occasion, you know, Mrs. Clinton, if you think about -- if you think in the current global economic climate where asset values have gone down, your stock portfolio is probably down. Your government has had -- your husband has had to do a little bit of government work, take time off from the private sector, it's not a bad offer.

HILLARY CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: Well, my daughter is her own person. She's very independent, so I will convey this very kind offer to her.


BROWN: You can see the entire interview this Sunday, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS." That's Sunday, 1:00 p.m. Eastern Time.

And that does it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now. Have a good weekend, everybody.