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Campbell Brown
Milwaukee Mayor Beaten; Michael Vick's Apology Tour
Aired August 17, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Is Michael Vick for real?
MICHAEL VICK, NFL PLAYER: The hurt and the guilt that I felt, that was the reason I cried so many nights.
BROWN: The NFL star who went to prison for running a dogfighting ring tells "60 Minutes" he's a changed man. But is he just manipulating the media to get back in the game and cash in once more? Michael Vick's apology tour.
Also, why would anyone bring a weapon to a town hall with the president?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In America, people have the ability to fight back and to resist.
BROWN: It's not against the law, but is it way over the line?
Plus, tonight's newsmaker: Milwaukee's mayor, beaten with a pipe after he tried to stop an attack on a grandmother and baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mayor Barrett, as I say, was willing to stand between that guy and defenseless and he suffered some significant wounds.
BROWN: We will tell you how he's doing tonight.
And the truth is out there. The British government shares its secret X-files on aliens and UFOs with the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hey, there, everybody.
Those are the big questions tonight. But we're going to start as we always do with our "Mash-Up. It is our look at all the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all, so you don't have to. He is taking a beating from the right, but, tonight, President Obama fending off blows from the left as well, the subject, health care, of course, the fire starting right here on CNN, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius declaring a public insurance option is not the essential element in reform.
And that comment intended to appease conservatives, but, boy, did it inflame liberals. Hear now, the view from the left.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC: In July, the president promised health care reform centered around a public option. Now he acts like it's just another footnote on the stump.
REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: I would love to be one of the big supporters of the Obama plan. But I have got to know that it includes a public option.
HOWARD DEAN, FORMER DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: You're not going to have real reform without some kind of public option.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: We got a statement, I have it here from Nancy Pelosi. She's saying she's fully behind that so-called public option.
SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (D), PENNSYLVANIA: I favor the public option.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Representative Barbara Lee says if you have a reform without a public option, it's not reform at all.
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm not ready to put the name nail in the coffin of the public option.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, the big question, will the president bend to the pressure, make the public option non-negotiable? Tonight, the White House insists the public option is still the best way to achieve their health care goals.
All you word watchers know that's anything but a real answer. So, how hard is the left willing to fight? We're going to tackle that question coming up tonight.
Now, while the White House may be under the gun on health care, they are sounding pretty upbeat about the economy these days. But if you think we're out of the woods, check out what happened today in the president's hometown.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
T.J. HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chicago a bit quieter today than usual. That's because many nonessential city services are shut down for the day. Why else? To save money. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many people showing up at city hall today were surprised to find out the city that works is taking an unpaid day off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Garbage isn't getting collected today. Senior centers are closed. Medical and health clinics run by the city are not open and city hall is shut down. So, it affects all of those folks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you wanted to pay a parking ticket in the city of Chicago today, forget about it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is ludicrous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Needed to use a library? Think again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a real headache. It's a real headache.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm looking here and it looks like the other people who are at work today, meter maids?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, meter maids. That means you can still get a parking ticket. Don't worry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The city is still looking to make money. Let's be clear here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, we should note essential public safety workers, firefighters, police officers, they were all still on the job today. Chicago expects to save about $8.3 million.
Now, we all know it is a tough time to be in public office these days. A long, angry summer probably has more than one lawmaker wondering what exactly comes next. Well, take heart, people. There is always time for a second act like this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This morning we reveal the new cast of "Dancing With the Stars." Is a surprise guest really ready to shake up stuff?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: That's right, Tom freaking Texas two-step DeLay.
BLITZER: They used to call Tom DeLay the Hammer. So, maybe he will do the Hammer when he's dancing.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Somebody who is indicted for violating campaign finance law is now a celebrity? He ought to be running for, like, prom queen in San Quentin or someplace, shouldn't he?
BLITZER: Well, he hasn't been convicted yet.
DeLay's competition includes Kelly Osbourne, singer Macy Gray, and model Kathy Ireland. It is must-see TV, people. And the congressman is going to be here tomorrow night to tell us all about it.
And if that is not weird enough for you, let's turn to the Brits and just-released info about some close encounters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Files detailing hundreds of UFO sightings reported to Britain's defense ministry are now being released online.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The release of more than 4,000 pages of documents related to UFO sightings reveal no fewer than 800, 800 alleged encounters over the last 20 years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 1996 was the bumper alien year, 609 sightings, up fivefold from the year before. 1996 was also the year the TV show "X-Files" was at its peak. That same year, Will Smith battled aliens in "Independence Day." Coincidence?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Interesting that defense officials admit that a tiny percentage, about 1 percent, defy explanation. Now, that doesn't mean they believe that they're aliens. It's just that they're unidentified.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And we're going to have a whole more on that story coming up as well.
And get ready, folks. This weekend's top movie, the low budget sleeper hit "District 9
That said, if you're looking for something superhuman, you can find it here On earth. This weekend, the fastest man alive got even faster. Check out Usain Bolt of Jamaica blowing away the competition in the 100 meter sprint at the world championships in Berlin, setting a new world record.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's the start. And Bolt got a good one. And Gay is right with him. And so is Asafa Powell. Bailey is there, too. But here's Bolt! Bolt charging to the front. Gay is coming, but can't catch him. Usain Bolt, look at the time, 9.58, world record.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I told you, Tom Hammond, we were going to see a 9.5 tonight. The wind is OK. In fact, ladies and gentlemen, it is into a headwind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And the old world record also set by Bolt last year. These days, he is clearly his only competition.
And that brings us to our punchline, not too much a joke tonight. But it's a funny exchange that involves Brad Pitt. So, just watch this. This is from HBO's "Bill Maher."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL MAHER, HOST, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": I remember being at a New Year's Eve party with you many years ago.
BRAD PITT, ACTOR: That wasn't me.
MAHER: Yes, it was.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: And you were on the floor -- not on the floor -- no, no. I said that wrong. You just happened to be -- you were certainly -- you very sober. But you just all night rolled these perfect joints, the most perfect joints I have ever seen, like a machine, like a cigarette. It was better than a cigarette.
PILL: I'm an artist.
MAHER: You are an artist.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Brad Pitt did go on to say that now that he's a dad, his stoner days way behind him.
And that is the "Mash-Up."
When we come back, protesters openly carrying guns show up at President Obama's speech today, completely legal. But tonight's big question, is it also completely over the line?
Also, will the left sink President Obama's health care reform plan? You have heard from the angry right. Tonight, it is Democrat vs. Democrat.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the public option goes away, Obama -- President Obama's already a lame duck president. If he does not get at least the public option, he's a lame duck president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It is make or break month for health care, and President Obama now under fire from members of his own party, Democrats forming their own angry chorus, furious at the White House for dialing back its commitment to the so-called public option.
They are crying betrayal and vowing to fight back. So, our big question tonight, is it all or nothing when it comes to health care reform?
And one of those who wants to keep the public option is Democratic Congresswoman Maxine Waters, who is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. She's joining us tonight from Los Angeles, in Washington, Ezra Klein, who is staff reporter for "The Washington Post." And he's keeping a blog that focuses largely on health care policy. And here with me in New York, our senior political analyst Jeffrey Toobin joining us as well.
Welcome to everybody.
Congresswoman, let me start with you on this.
REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: Yes.
BROWN: You have said that you won't vote for a bill without the public option. Why is this a deal-breaker for you?
WATERS: It's a deal-breaker because the whole idea behind health care reform is to bring down the costs. We cannot bring down the costs unless there's a public option that will create competition.
We cannot turn this over to the same people who have been, you know, making the costs of health care just go off the scale. The premiums continue to go up. They continue to make more money. And the CEOs continue to make big salaries. We have got to stop that. The only way to stop it is with a public option.
BROWN: Well, Congresswoman, President Clinton, who knows quite a lot about what it's like to fight for health care and fail, has been warning liberals, you know, not to let the perfect be the enemy of the good here.
And let me just play you a little bit of what he said. This is to a group of liberal bloggers this weekend. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It is politically imperative for the Democrats to pass a health care bill now, because one thing we know...
(APPLAUSE)
CLINTON: One thing we know and that I have lived through is that if you get out there and then you don't prevail, the victors get to rewrite history. And I want us to be mindful that sometimes we may have to take less than a full loaf.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, what do you think about that, sometimes we may have to take less than a full loaf? Are you not prepared to make any compromise?
WATERS: Well, I -- listen, no, let me tell you, you know I'm one who supported a single-payer plan. Most of us progressives did support a single-payer plan.
They asked us not to push on that, that that was going to be impossible to do. This would cost a lot of confrontation. We backed up on single-payer and decided that we would go with public option that was supported by the president of the United States. And we considered that we have made a huge compromise.
And, so, it's not that we want the perfect. We want what is credible. You cannot have credible health care reform if you don't address the issue of the rising costs. And this is not just about the uninsured. This is about working people who every day go to work and increasingly they're paying a larger percentage of their income for health care than in recent years.
BROWN: Right.
Let me have Jeff back it up a little bit and just explain to people what we're talking about when we talk about the public option. What does that mean for people at home?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Right. People sometimes talk about these things in shorthand, in code.
In simple terms, a public option is, we all know what insurance companies are. Most of us have our insurance through Aetna, UnitedHealthcare, Oxford, whatever. The idea behind this plan is that there would be a different plan, Uncle Sam's plan, run by the government, where you could get insurance through the government.
And conservatives say, well, that's unfair to the existing companies, because they would undercut, drive them out of business. Like Congresswoman Waters say, supporters of the plan say, look, it's just good competition and there's no reason why it would be unfair. Look how well UPS and FedEx do competing against the post office. That's the plan.
BROWN: And that's the point that the president has made time and time again.
TOOBIN: The president made that...
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: Many times. BROWN: Ezra, let me go to this. You heard Congresswoman Waters there. Give us a sense for how intense the anger is on the left over this. And are they willing to really put muscle behind it?
EZRA KLEIN, STAFF REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": It's very significant, right?
I think that for the left and for that matter for the right the public option has become the single symbolic measure of success on this, right? It's a big bill. The parts are hard to follow. And it's hard to say whether you're winning or you're losing. But this has become the way people decide that.
Now, as for the muscle piece of things, it's going to be a tricky fight. The congresswoman and the Progressive Caucus have made an argument that if you try to sacrifice the public option for a couple votes in the Senate, you're going to lose so many in the House you can't pass the bill.
At the end of the day, they're having troubling prosecuting that because people think that they're not really going to kill health care reform. But I have spoken with the chairwoman of the caucus, and they seem very serious about it to me.
BROWN: But address that argument, if you would, Congresswoman, that I guess bottom line is that they think you're bluffing.
WATERS: Well, let me just say that this is a dynamic process. And for those of us who feel strongly about having a public option, having a credible health care reform bill, not caving in so much that what you get won't amount to real reform, we're serious.
I'm told that someone said, oh, you don't have to worry about the progressives. We will eventually get them. I don't think that is the case this time. I think that we have a lot of people who feel very strongly about this. We're going to hold firm, and we're going to demand that we have a credible health care bill.
No one can say that we're not willing to compromise at any time, anyplace, anywhere. We did that on single-payer. We showed that we were willing to work with the Blue Dogs and the opposite side of the aisle and anybody else who didn't like single-payer. So, we backed up. And now we are insisting on having a public option. And I think that's where we're going to stick.
BLITZER: All right. Congresswoman Waters, Maxine Waters, joining us tonight, Ezra Klein and Jeff Toobin, who is going to be sticking around to talk to us again a little later in the show, thank you very much, guys. Appreciate it.
Tomorrow, we're going to hear from Deepak Chopra, who says the opposition to health care reform is lying. He also has a solution that cuts Congress right out of the health care discussion. You're going to hear his unusual take tomorrow.
And if you want to learn how the reforms could affect you, your family, check out CNN.com/healthcare. We have posted town halls, fact-checks, iReports, and a whole lot more to help you out right there.
Tonight's newsmaker: Michael Vick. He is just out of prison on an apology tour, in case you haven't heard, but does he really deserve a second shot at the NFL?
Plus, the mayor turned hero, he saved a grandmother and baby, but paid a pretty painful price.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BARRETT, BROTHER OF MILWAUKEE MAYOR: Tom stepped up and did the right thing. He called 911 and tried to calm the situation, protect the grandmother and her grandchild. As a result of his actions, Tom was attacked and struck repeatedly with a metal object.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker: Michael Vick. He is out of prison, says he is sorry. But is he being totally scripted, and should he get another shot at NFL glory?
Also, extreme protesters, they showed up at President Obama's event today openly carrying guns. One guy had a semiautomatic rifle. You have got to see this to believe it when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Is Michael Vick's remorse for real? Fresh out of prison for running a dogfighting right, Vick's -- quote -- "I'm sorry" tour took him to 60 minutes last night for a sit-down with James Brown. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES BROWN, CBS: And the operation, Michael, that you pleaded guilty to bankrolling, to being a part of, engaged in barbarous treatment of the animals, beating them, shooting them, electrocuting them, drowning them -- horrific things, Michael.
VICK: It was wrong, man. I don't know how many times I got to say it. I mean, it was wrong.
I feel -- you know, I feel tremendous hurt behind what happened. And, you know, I should have took the initiative to stop it all, you know, and I didn't. And I feel so bad about that now. And I know, you know, that I didn't step up. I wasn't the leader.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, Vick's made-for-TV apology begs the question, is he truly sorry or is he just sorry he got caught and couldn't play football?
Joining me now, Les Bowen, who is a sportswriter for "The Philadelphia Daily News." He covers the Philadelphia Eagles, Vick's new team. Sports attorney David Cornwell is in Atlanta for us tonight. And back again, CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin with me as well.
Les, let me start with you on this.
You were talking with us last week and said Philly -- Philadelphia Eagles fans were split about 50/50 in terms of their reaction to Vick, maybe leaning a little bit negative. Do you think this interview helped him?
LES BOWEN, "THE PHILADELPHIA DAILY NEWS": You know, I really don't think -- Campbell, I don't think it changed that much.
He did give a press conference here Friday, which was very heavily covered in the local media, and said many of the same things. And that gets to the scripted quality that you brought up earlier. He is saying kind of the same stuff in these appearances. And you wonder if they are his words or not.
BROWN: And, Jeff, that was kind of the point I kept hearing. People listened to this 60 minutes interview in the newsrooms, watched the press conference, and it's sounding a little too rehearsed, like somebody sat him down and said, listen, you want to play football, you want the cash, here's what you guy to say.
TOOBIN: You better be really sorry. Look, my skill set does not include insight into the immortal soul of Michael Vick.
BROWN: Come on.
TOOBIN: I don't know if he's true -- I...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That's why I booked you tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
TOOBIN: That's right, because of my Vick expertise.
This guy went to prison for a year-and-a-half. He paid his debt to society. At this point, you know, sure, he should be contrite. But I don't know whether he is or not. But I think he deserves a second chance. I would like less famous people to get second chances, too, but certainly Michael Vick does, too.
And if I know Philly fans, if Donovan McNabb gets hurt and Michael Vick throws for 300 yards a game, they won't care how many dogs he killed.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Is that what this is about?
David, let me get your take on that. Is it really about his performance on the field, and if he's playing well and they have a winning season, nobody cares?
DAVID CORNWELL, SPORTS ATTORNEY: I think now it is. But he had to get through this past week.
And the reason that his answers seem the same is that he's being asked the same questions. But the real test is that he gave his supporters something to embrace. He gave people with open minds something to be optimistic about. And, most importantly, he didn't give his critics anything to use against him. So, it's time to move on from the public apology and focus on football.
BROWN: He did, though -- let me a little bit play more of the interview. He also addressed efforts to make amends, what he's worked out with the Humane Society. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VICK: And I'm going to let me actions to change speak louder than my words. And I'm going to still be involved in the community, because I still, regardless of football, will have a voice that can have an impact on kids, because I have been a living example of what not to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Les, I will get your take. I mean, you -- he has -- OK.
TOOBIN: Why don't these people stay away from kids? You know what? Just play football. I don't need him to be an inspiration or anything regarding a kid.
BROWN: Why not, though? But those are our role models for our children. They're athletes. They're sports heroes. Why shouldn't there be some sort of obligation, especially if you have gone down this path, to -- to do something a little bit better?
(CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: I just think -- you know, I think kids are smarter than that. Just play football. I don't want him to be a role model or any...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead. Who was jumping in there? Was that you, Les.
BOWEN: Yes, it was me.
First of all, there's a deal that has been made here. The owner of the Eagles, Jeffrey Lurie, would not have signed off on this if Vick were not willing to be, as Lurie put it, proactive in doing a lot of appearances, in talking about dogfighting. There is a dogfighting culture in Philadelphia, that, perhaps, he can be instrumental in dismantling, to some extent. I mean, that is part of the deal there and it's a very real part of the deal. And it won't be swept under the rug. If none of that stuff takes place, he's not going to be on the Eagles.
(CROSSTALK)
BOWEN: So, I understand the point, but it is going to have to happen. The involvement in the community is going to have to happen for this to move forward.
BROWN: Quickly, David.
CORNWELL: Well, it's -- it's also a part of his -- his sentence. He has to do community service.
TOOBIN: Right.
CORNWELL: But, at a certain level, Jeff -- Jeffrey's right. The best way for a football player to rebuild his image is to play football.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right, guys, Les Bowen, David Cornwell, Jeff Toobin, as always, thank you.
The selling and selling and selling of Michael Jackson. We're going to look into the windfall his estate is reaping for some people.
And we're going to look into this, too. Guns in plain sight with the president in plain sight also, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I'm about to show you something that is perfectly legal, but think about your own reaction when I tell you this is right outside the convention center where President Obama spoke today in Phoenix. This is a man who showed up with what we believe to be a semiautomatic rifle hanging off his shoulder. Arizona, among the states where you can carry a firearm in public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm exercising my right as an American in Arizona. Well, I come from another state where open carry is legal, but no one does it. So the police don't really know about it and they harass people, arrest people falsely, and I think that people need to get out and do it more so that they get kind of condition to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And he was not alone. About a dozen others were also in the crowd armed. Are they merely invoking their right or part of what could be a really dangerous trend here? With me right now, conservative commentator and constitutional attorney, Mark Smith, former New York Police Department investigator Lou Palumbo who now heads his own security firm. And in Chicago, CNN political analyst Roland Martin with us as well tonight.
Mark, let me start with you on this. Nobody questioning anybody's Second Amendment rights here. This is about just basic rational thought, bringing a gun to an event where the president is speaking.
MARK SMITH, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Well, I think it is dopey. But the fact is he's legally allowed to do it and people make political statement whenever they go to political events. And if he's making a political statement about the fact that he has the right to carry arms, so be it.
Keep in mind, I'm sure people showed up with newspapers exercising their First Amendment rights. And keep in mind President Obama, he wants to leave the beltway. He wants to leave New York City. He wants to go out there and meet real Americans.
Well, real Americans carry guns. Real Americans own gun for self-defense because, you know, real Americans don't have Secret Service officers surrounding them 24/7. So if he wants them the top two Americans --
BROWN: So you're telling me that guy was carrying a gun to that rally for self-defense?
SMITH: I don't know why he was carrying the gun. But the point is Americans, when you leave the beltway in Washington and New York City carry guns, they own guns. If President Obama wants to talk to real Americans, he's going to have to talk to people that own guns.
BROWN: And people walk around with semiautomatic.
SMITH: Semiautomatic.
BROWN: I'm from Louisiana. I know a lot of people with guns. But as far as I know, they don't walk around with semiautomatic weapons.
SMITH: Well, of course, they do because every gun that people carry is a semiautomatic because automatic weapons are machine guns and you're not really allowed to own those unless you qualify for a very special permit. The point is if President Obama wants to sell his health care plan to ordinary Americans he's going to have to sell his plan to people that like guns, whether or not the media elite in New York like it and whether or not the political --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Roland, go ahead. Sorry, I'm going to let you do this.
SMITH: That's the reality of this.
MARTIN: Mark, Mark, Mark, Mark, cut this crap about the media elite, OK. I'm born and raised in Texas. This is a town hall meeting dealing with health care. All this guy wanted to do was get on television.
SMITH: I agree, and he succeeded.
MARTIN: Mark, Mark, Mark, one second.
So enough with this --
BROWN: But he's not the only one either. To Roland's point, I mean, a lot of people have been doing this to make a point or whatever. But the bottom line is, there are kids there. There are other people at this rally. The president is there.
I mean, let me let Lou jump in here. Can't the Secret Service do something about this?
LOU PALUMBO, ELITE INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: Yes, they can. There's a provision in the Secret Service called protection and intelligence. And I'm certain right now they're taking a look at anybody that demonstrated this lack of discretion and insensitivity. And this transcends our legal right to carry a weapon. It's about our good judgment and good taste.
You know, this president has a wife and he has children. And these incidents impact these people as well as the president. And quite frankly, you know, if they're going to continue to act with this level of indiscretion, I will guarantee you that the proper adjustment is going to be made in the law enforcement community to make sure that these people are properly surveilled.
SMITH: Oh, come on, come one. Good judgment? Yes, I agree it wasn't good judgment. But now you're going to go out there and pass laws to deal with good judgment? Well, if you're going to start passing laws about judgment, you've got a very long way to go.
This man, although --
BROWN: It's not about passing laws. It's about asking the Secret Service to step in a little more aggressively. I mean --
(CROSSTALK)
SMITH: They did not arrest him.
Let's cut to the chase. Let's cut to the case. This man was not arrested. Nobody was arrested, and those people who had guns were not arrested. They were acting peacefully. They're acting behind the law. And the fact that you don't like it --
BROWN: All right.
Roland -- hold on, hold on. Let me let Roland jump in.
MARTIN: You know what, Mark, if you were giving the speech and there were people who were showing up with guns, I doubt you would be standing there saying, yes, that's great. But here's the other thing.
CNN.com had a story the other day of a man who was carrying three handguns who was wheeled into a hospital for a hit injury. They took the guns away from him. All of a sudden they found -- he pulled another gun out. The officer had to shoot him and it killed him in the hospital.
So, you know, I get this whole notion of gun culture. But the reality is this is the president at a health care meeting. If you want to talk about the First and Second Amendment, fine, have another forum.
SMITH: This is not a meeting.
MARTIN: I don't care.
SMITH: These people were outside the meeting, Roland. These were not the people that were actually in the meeting.
MARTIN: The point was health care.
SMITH: They were outside the meeting. And last I knew, in Arizona, and in most places of the United States, you can go to a meeting and exercise your constitutional rights. The United States Supreme Court says that you have the right to bear arms. You may not like that, but that's just the way the law is.
BROWN: Then let's just -- let me put one other thing out here.
MARTIN: It's called decency, Mark.
SMITH: Yes, but you're not going to left it just like that.
BROWN: If we're trying -- but, Mark, I mean, in all honesty, can we agree that the people showing up with guns, I would assume, are against health care reform.
SMITH: No, I don't think we can at all. I think that's not right at all. How do we know why they're there?
BROWN: Well, the guy just said -- just said he was there because he was against health care reform. He's carrying a rifle.
SMITH: What is the connection.
BROWN: So are they helping their cause if they're trying to make a statement about health care reform, showing up with a gun?
SMITH: Well, I think that that's not even a fair assumption. How do we know why these people --
BROWN: He said. He said he was against health care.
SMITH: Look at the Blue Dog Democrats. The Blue Dog Democrats, for example, are pro-gun.
BROWN: I'm not assuming. He said that, Mark.
MARTIN: You know, Campbell --
SMITH: This is one guy out of -- this is one guy and we're talking on national TV about one guy.
MARTIN: I'll tell you about guns and health care, Campbell. When you have 40 plus kids on the South Side of Chicago who are killed every year because of guns, I'll tell you, it impacts health care. So if you want to have a health care conversation, Mark, let's have one.
SMITH: Yes, let's have one.
MARTIN: But this is not a gun conversation. They should leave their guns at home.
SMITH: Let's talk about the guns that save lives. Let's talk about those guns that protect good people from bad people who want to do bad things.
BROWN: I think --
SMITH: Let's talk about what happened at the Holocaust Museum in Harlem.
BROWN: All right.
MARTIN: Leave them at home.
BROWN: Guys -- everybody, everybody, cool it. I'm out of time. But I think where we want to end this conversation is that's a conversation you can have without bringing guns to a crowded place where people and children are walking around...
MARTIN: Absolutely.
BROWN: ... trying to have a civil dialogue. OK, I'm with Roland on this. Thank you, though. Appreciate your time, Mark. Thank you very much, Lou, for coming in as well. Roland, as always.
The mayor of Milwaukee had his teeth knocked out and his hands shattered by a man with a metal pipe. Tonight, we have dramatic new audio from a 911 call that was made during the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 CALLER: My granddaughter's father just tried to pull her out of the car, broke my cell phone, threatened to shoot us and to shoot himself.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You have your crime fighting mayors, your corruption fighting mayors. But Mayor Tom Barrett of Milwaukee is a new kind of fighting mayor all together. He actually stood up to a pipe-wielding man trying who was trying to attack a woman and her baby granddaughter.
Here's how it sounded at the very beginning in the 911 call made by the mayor's niece. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POLICE OFFICER: South 99th and Orchard for a battery.
911 OPERATOR: OK, what's going on there?
MAYOR'S NIECE: It's the mayor of Milwaukee, I'm sorry.
911 OPERATOR: What's going on?
NIECE: There's a beating on 88th and Orchard. There's some guy arguing with his girlfriend, and my uncle just tried to step in, and the guy took a stick to him and hit him over the head and he's bleeding all over the place. We need an ambulance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And we are joined right now by Mayor Tom Barrett's brother, John, who's in Milwaukee for us tonight. And welcome to you, John. Let me first ask you, your brother, I understand, he's just been released from the hospital? How's he doing?
JOHN BARRETT, MILWAUKEE MAYOR'S BROTHER: He's doing much better. He's home. I spoke to his wife just a few minutes ago. They're having a little mustachiolli (ph) there. My nephew just actually had a baby, so they brought the baby over there and they're just enjoying being home.
BROWN: I'm so glad. Walk us through, if you will, what happened or what your brother told you happened. I know he comes across this grandmother who's got a 1-year-old baby girl with her and a man is confronting them. What happened?
BARRETT: Well, we were at state fair and they were walking back from state fair. And they came across this woman who was screaming, help, please call 911, help, please call 911. and as she does that, Tom grabs his phone, calls 911 and this assailant comes out and knocks the phone out of his hand and starts stomping on the phone at which point Tom says just calm down, calm down, everything will be OK. And the guy says, I have a gun and I'm not afraid to use it on all of you.
And Tom's kids start to cry at that point because he's with his two daughters who are 10 and 12, my niece and my sister. And my brother says to my sister, Betsy, go take the kids and get them out of harm's way. And the assailant says, no, nobody's going anywhere. Tom says, take the kids out of the way. So Betsy takes the kids out of the harm's way and then the assailant punches Tom a couple of times in the stomach and then Tom kind of buckles. And the guy says, OK, I want you to lay flat down on the ground. Tom is, like, at this point afraid for his life and he's thinking, well, you know, if this guy's going to kill me I'd rather go down fighting. So, he basically comes up and swings and there's some question as to whether he actually made contact or not, but he swings at the guy. Somehow there's a struggle. He's thrown to the ground.
And when he's thrown to the ground, this guy has a, like, a police baton that extends and he is basically pounding Tom over and over with this baton and knocks Tom, like a tooth on the bottom of Tom's mouth out right at the root. Knocks out a couple of his front teeth. He -- his face was cut up so where it starts here and goes down to his lip, but he needed plastic surgery on a section from just underneath his nose to the top of his lip.
He also needed stitches on the back of his head and he just was very much -- very injured by this whole thing. It was a traumatic thing.
And then my niece, as this was going on, my niece steps up and she calls 911. And the call that you just -- that sounded like her there. She calls 911 and then she's telling the guy, you know, I've got the police on the line, you know, and she's trying to get the guy off of my brother.
And the guy came up to her. She put her hand up like in a stop signal. The guy evidently came up, put his chest right up to her hand and she's, like, don't touch me, don't touch me, and pushed him away. The guy hears the sirens and he says, "f" this, I'm out of here and he takes off.
BROWN: It is just -- John, I mean, it's unbelievable. Do we know any of the back story about who this guy was or who the woman was and the baby and what was going on?
BARRETT: A little bit of what I know is that evidently the -- the woman was the grandmother and the baby was the grandchild who's about 1, and she had some information that this guy was coming over that night. She had warned her daughter to stay away and this was just the information I'm getting kind of second-hand. And so she had evidently attempted to drive around and didn't want to encounter the guy but then came back. And when she came back the guy was still there waiting for her, and so that's when this whole incident occurred.
BROWN: And then he was arrested, right? The police do have him in custody, I understand?
BARRETT: Yes. They picked him up around 17th and State in Milwaukee today, or yesterday I think.
BROWN: Wow. Your brother, boy, is he a hero. They must be incredibly grateful. I understand the president called him? Did they get to talk?
BARRETT: I think they did. I know that that would be something that would excite Tom as a Democratic mayor of a city and to have the recognition of President Obama would be something that he would appreciate, I'm sure.
BROWN: Well, John Barrett, thank you for coming on and telling us this story. It really is amazing. We are so glad that he is doing better and glad he's out of the hospital.
Many, many thanks. And wish him well for us. We appreciate your time tonight.
BARRETT: Well, I appreciate your kind words and I appreciate, actually, everyone's kind words for my brother and on behalf of my brother. Thank you very much.
BROWN: You bet. John Barrett for us.
When we come back, Michael Jackson's name and memory generating major, major bucks here. Tonight, new developments in what you will soon be able to buy.
Plus the British government opening their UFO files. We have a closer look at that as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This just in tonight. A judge approved a deal that will bring Michael Jackson merchandise, trading cards, clothing and a whole lot more to a store near you. There could also be a traveling exhibition of Michael Jackson memorabilia.
The Jackson's family still fighting over that specifically with the executors of his estate. The executors estimate that Jackson's estate could generate something like $100 million a year. That is only the beginning. This is big money we're talking about.
Joining us tonight to talk about all of this "Inside Edition" chief correspondent and former CNN anchor Jim Moret, and entertainment attorney, James Walker, here with me in New York.
James, let me just start. The "Today" show this morning had an exclusive interview with this designer who came out and said basically he had a deal with Jackson, right?
JAMES WALKER, ENTERTAINMENT ATTORNEY: Right. Correct.
BROWN: ... to do merchandising.
WALKER: What the designer, as well as the judge today ruled that they can go ahead with putting things on the shelves in stores. But the judge didn't rule whether or not we can do this traveling tour with AEG, which is the big money. That's the tour where we're going to cut a deal with Sony, put a movie out and then have memorabilia traveling while the movie is out.
BROWN: OK. Let me interrupt you for a second and have Jim sort of explain to us the deal on this, on what this deal means and what the ruling means today, Jim. JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, I mean, you're talking about the merchandise, there can be calendars, posters, clothing. And one of the administrators, John Branca, estimates that the estate could bring in about $100 million by the end of the year between merchandise and album sales and another $100 million by the end of the year from the proceeds of this movie that's going to be released in October.
So just until the end of this year, you're talking about $200 million for an estate that's got some debt of about $400 million, wipes out about half the debts. It's big money and it's very important to the estate.
BROWN: And there is tension, though, Jim, between you know, the family in terms of how they want to handle this, right? Specifically Katherine Jackson and the estate lawyers.
MORET: Katherine Jackson keeps objecting to the two administrators. And there's going to be another hearing on Friday and eventually a hearing to determine who the permanent administrators will be.
Katherine Jackson does not want these two administrators. Claims they have a conflict of interest. And they say we know the business better and this is what Michael Jackson wanted. So that's the standoff right now.
BROWN: How important is timing in all of this? Getting this done very quickly?
WALKER: Campbell, it's very important. They have to seize the moment while everyone is still excited, looking for a tour, looking for memorabilia. They need to close this deal with AEG.
Katherine Jackson is saying the 10 percent that AEG supposedly gets may be a little too high. So they're in court asking the judge to rule on whether or not AEG should get that amount. And AEG is saying, hey, we have to pay bills. Hey, let's get this going, let's all make money here. And it's really a fight over, you know, the Benjamins -- the dollars.
BROWN: Yes. As always, James Walker for us tonight. Jim Moret, as always. Thanks, guys. Appreciate the update.
MORET: Sure.
BROWN: The Brits are seeing things, bright, shiny mysterious things up in the sky and have been seeing them for years. Honest, the English government confirmed all of this just today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID CLARKE, UFO HISTORIAN: But the truth really is in these files, whatever the truth is.
(END VIDEO CLIP) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The British government just made public a lot of its once-secret records about UFO sightings. Of all the reports that have fed in today, this is the one we just had to play again. Here's Zain Verjee with tonight's "Breakout."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAIN VERJEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Flying saucers, intelligent life and alien abductions may not be in Downing Street briefings. But the latest release of UFO files has Britain buzzing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VERJEE (voice-over): A spaceship load of stories, documenting close encounters and mysterious incidents. The UK National Archives has released another batch of the government's X files, thousands of pages listing more than 800 UFO sightings reported between 1993 and 1996.
1996 was the bumper alien year, 609 sightings, up fivefold from the year before. 1996 was also the year the TV show "X Files" was at its peak. That same year Will Smith battled aliens in "Independence Day."
Coincidence? The report's grabbing headlines.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aliens exist. I can't prove that they don't exist, so, therefore, they probably do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the government has enough problems already without having to worry about aliens or UFOs.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't believe they exist.
VERJEE (on camera): If you look up in the sky and see anything strange, you can report it at the British Ministry of Defense Web site. This person saw a formation of 18 lights. They appeared like a flock of helicopters with lights on.
Look at this entry. "A flying saucer with lights on it. It changed from a saucer shape to a star shape and then just disappeared."
(voice-over): A Ministry of Defense spokeswoman tells CNN it looks at reports only to see if UK airspace may have been compromised by hostile or unauthorized military activity. The new files also reveal that a U.S. spy plane called "Aurora" could be behind a slew of reported sightings in 1993. One official briefing note says there were unusual UFO sightings over Britain involving descriptions that match some of the reported characteristics of the so-called "Aurora."
The 14 new files debunk some other incidents, but they also show some sightings are just plain strange and unexplained. DAVID CLARKE, UFO HISTORIAN: Something's going on. I don't know what the answer is. And -- but the truth really is in these files, whatever the truth is.
VERJEE (on camera): The UK Ministry of Defense and the National Archives are releasing these files over a period of three years. So we'll hear more about bright lights in the night sky.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's Zain Verjee for us, once again. That's it for us tonight. We will see you the same time tomorrow.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
