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Campbell Brown
Where Is H1N1 Vaccine?; Conservative Rebellion in GOP?
Aired November 02, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Will the Democrats get swept out of office in the first elections since Obama won the White House? And is there a rebellion brewing inside the Republican Party?
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: We're in the middle, I think, of a political rebellion going on in America. And this rebellion is -- are by people who really have not been actively involved in the political process.
BROWN: Plus, why are some towns getting the H1N1 vaccine faster than others? Who's deciding this and will it reach your neighborhood in time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Given the unpredictability of these types of viruses, I don't think you can make an assumption that anything is going to be too little too late.
BROWN: Also, "SuperFreakonomics," turning everyday thinking upside-down with the facts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More dangerous for you to walk home drunk than to drive drunk.
BROWN: Find out why conventional wisdom is often wrong.
Also, tonight's intriguing person, Ivanka Trump. If you thought she was born with a silver spoon in her mouth, she will tell you no.
IVANKA TRUMP, DAUGHTER OF DONALD TRUMP: I tell a story in the book about my mom making us all fly coach while she's up in first class, saying, if we want to join, she would love the company, so long as we're willing to pay for the ticket upgrade ourselves.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. We start tonight as always with the "Mash-Up." It's our look at all the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all so you don't have to.
And our top story tonight is tomorrow's election, Democrats hoping to hold on in a few key races, Republicans looking to the future and what tomorrow may mean, all eyes on New York's 23rd Congressional District, where there's not even a Republican running anymore. It's now between a Democrat and a Conservative Party candidate. And that's what makes this so interesting. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What was a three-way race dwindled when moderate Republican candidate Dede Scozzafava abruptly withdrew from the race this weekend.
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not only did she drop out, but she endorsed the Democrat. Why? Because conservatives said she was not a good enough Republican, because she supported abortion rights and gay rights.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin was one of Scozzafava's biggest critics, saying on her Facebook page, "There is no real difference between the Democrat and the Republican in this race.'
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Why care about all this? It's because it really is the storyline of the Republican Party right now. You are seeing a mighty struggle for those who want it to be conservative and toe the line. Then you have those who say that the Republican Party has got to expand its base, not shrink it.
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Joe Biden seized on the Republican family feud.
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know, they may not have any room for moderate views in the Republican Party upstate anymore, but let me assure you, we have room.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're going to have a whole lot more on this battle within the Republican Party coming up in just a few minutes.
There will be no runoff election in Afghanistan this weekend, President Hamid Karzai declared the winner. This is after his challenger pulled out. President Obama called President Karzai today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Although the process was messy, I'm pleased to say that the final outcome was determined in accordance with Afghan law, that the results were in accordance with an followed the rules laid down by the Afghan constitution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, next up for President Obama, a decision, of course, on whether to send more troops to Afghanistan. But we are told that decision still could be weeks away.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
Does this propel the president to make a decision more quickly, now that everyone knows Hamid Karzai wins?
DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: This is another non-surprise. Everything that's happened today is something he's known for weeks, months, a year-and-a-half in some cases.
CHARLES GIBSON, HOST, "WORLD NEWS": The resolution of the election clears the way for the president's decision on sending more troops.
CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: The president doesn't have a reason for delaying a decision on that Afghanistan strategy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: U.S. soldiers are fighting and dying to support a government that has yet to prove worthy of the name.
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I would hope at the end of the day, the president will base this decision on what's right for the men and women that he plans to send and those who are already there. It's important that the president gets it right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're going to move now to Pakistan, to more suicide bombings today, two separate attacks, the worst killing at least 35 people, many of them just waiting in line to pick up their paychecks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attacker approached his target on a motorcycle, the time of the attack no coincidence, say police, the first workday of the month, when current and retired government workers line up at the bank to withdraw monthly salaries and pensions.
Witnesses say several soldiers were among those in line. Those soldiers were the likely target, say police, but dozens of civilians were killed in the blast, the latest in a wave of attacks that have terrorized Pakistanis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Suicide attacks in Pakistan happening more and more often. The United Nations announcing today that it is suspending some long-term development projects and pulling some staffers out of Pakistan.
To Washington now and some health care hyperbole on Capitol Hill, one congresswoman equating potential health care reform with terrorism. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. VIRGINIA FOXX (R), NORTH CAROLINA: The greatest fear that we all should have is -- to our freedom comes from this room, this very room, and what may happen later this week, in terms of a tax- increase bill masquerading as a health care bill.
I believe we have more to fear from the potential of that bill passing than we do from any terrorist right now in any country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That was North Carolina Republican Virginia Foxx. The House may start debating the full health care reform bill on Friday.
The latest flu headline, the H1N1 vaccine should soon be available to everybody who wants it. Doctors from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say 30 million vaccine doses are ready. Message to the CDC, though, tell that to parents who are looking for a dose right now. It is not so easy to phone.
Last night, "60 Minutes" did go behind the scenes at one of the facilities where they are making the vaccine. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are the first pictures of the H1N1 vaccine being produced in a sprawling $250 million facility in Swiftwater, Pennsylvania.
Like other vaccines, the H1N1 virus is grown in chicken eggs, in an updated version of a process that's been around since World War II. The virus grows in the eggs. Later, it's killed and refined into vaccine. The process takes three months. Most of that is testing for safety and sterility.
Sanofi Pasteur has a federal contract to make 75 million doses. And they will go through millions of eggs.
The farms are around the plant here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because of security reasons, I'm not at liberty to share the exact location.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are secret egg farms?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want to reveal the locations for security reasons.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: The CDC also announced new vaccine guidelines for pregnant women and children today. We are going to talk to Dr. Sanjay Gupta about that coming up shortly.
The flu pandemic just one of several crises for this White House. Three of President Obama's top advisers talked about it when they sat down for an exclusive with CNN's Wolf Blitzer. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: They still -- according to the polls, they still like him a lot. But they're not necessarily in love with his policies.
DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: I say to him sometimes, gee, it would be interesting to be here when we didn't have two wars, the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, huge deficits we have handled. And he...
(CROSSTALK)
ANITA DUNN, WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: And a pandemic.
AXELROD: And a pandemic, yes. And his -- and he says, yes, but we probably wouldn't be here if not for all these problems.
He takes that in stride. But the fact is, people have a reason to be dissatisfied. These are not great times. I think they understand he's working toward solving these problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The president and his advisers prepping for more bad news about the economy, unemployment today close to 10 percent, could push past that when more job losses are announced later this week.
A stunning sight in New York Harbor today, the Navy's newest ship making an emotional homecoming. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, the USS New York is now sailing toward the city it was named for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: About 10 minutes ago, the ship passed under the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and it headed straight for ground zero.
JOHN ROBERTS, CO-HOST, "AMERICAN MORNING": The New York contains steel from the World Trade Center, some 7.5 tons of it was that melted down and fashioned into that part of the bow that breaks the water, very symbolic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The New York came to a complete stop at the Trade Center site and then gave a 21-gun salute, an emotional moment for the families gathered onshore.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A very emotional moment for a lot of people obviously on that ship and people watching all over, as there is the site of what once was the World Trade Center.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually an amazing site, isn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is, very moving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The ship will be commissioned Saturday and stay docked in New York through Veterans Day next week.
And now to the "Punchline" and Conan O'Brien doing his own "Mash- Up" of Halloween themes. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": Please enjoy this special Halloween mini-dose of joy, puppies dressed as Frankenstein.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Anything to put puppies on TV.
That is the "Mash-Up."
We're getting ready for a big election tomorrow night, the two big headlines right now, the conservative rebellion in the Republican Party and President Obama facing the prospect of blue states turning red. Find out why so much is at stake for both parties.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK ARMEY, FORMER REPUBLICAN HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: Evangelicals, libertarians, Democrats, conservatives, independents all saying Obama and Pelosi are going to take us too far to the left. It's time to put on the reins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Voter anger boiling for months could spill over at the polls tomorrow, elections being held in several states, and the White House is taking full precautions.
But the president and his party aren't the only people worried. One little congressional district in Upstate New York has become ground zero in the battle for the heart and soul of the Republican Party.
Big-name conservatives, from Sarah Palin to Glenn Beck, have thrown their weight behind a third-party candidate, essentially chasing the Republican nominee out of the race here, now, the contest seen as a test of strength for the conservative grassroots tea party movement.
And with me now to talk about this, CNN political contributor and Republican strategist Ed Rollins, Republican Congressman John Shadegg of Arizona with us also, and CNN political -- senior political correspondent Candy Crowley joining us as well.
Candy, let me start with you on this.
Explain to people why this one New York congressional district is sort of the center of the political universe right now.
CROWLEY: Because it's part of the larger story of the Republican Party right now, what is the Republican Party, what do they stand for, who's a Republican, who's not a Republican, and it is a huge battle between the conservative parts of the party, the purist, or at least the more pure, and the moderates, the pragmatists, saying, we have got to expand, we have to make the tent bigger.
And then you have those that have really moved into this race up in New York that have said you cannot win elections by being Democrat- lite. We need to be Ronald Reagan conservatives. And they felt that this contestant in Upstate New York was not in fact a pure conservative.
And they, as you say rightly, chased her out of the race. So, it's just a reflection of a larger story that we will see play out, I think, for a couple, two, three years.
BROWN: So, Congressman, I mean, what compelled you here, an Arizona Republican to endorse the third party candidate in New York? I mean, explain to us. Is Candy right, the stakes are really that high for you?
REP. JOHN SHADEGG (R), ARIZONA: Candy is right, except I would go a little bit further than she did. Quite frankly, this is emblematic of the fight going on within the Republican Party.
But, more importantly than that, it's where Americans are right now. Quite frankly, I think Americans are unhappy with politicians of every stripe, whether they're Republican, Democrat, or independent. I think what you're seeing in this race is the manifestation of that frustration.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Yes, let me just challenge you a little bit, Congressman...
SHADEGG: Sure.
BROWN: ... because this is a local congressional race. And Americans may feel that way, but the New York Republican Party certainly seemed to be comfortable with their candidate. What's your business to tell New York Republicans?
(CROSSTALK) SHADEGG: Were they? Hoffman pulled ahead of the Republican candidate before she pulled out.
So, I don't think -- I think, in fact, it shows that rank-and- file Republicans or rank-and-file New Yorkers in this congressional district were not happy that a select few Republicans picked a candidate who, quite frankly, I don't think was even a moderate Republican. She was to the left of the Democrat.
And she was not just to the left of the Democrat on some social issues, as some people are saying.
BROWN: Right.
SHADEGG: She was left of the Democrat on a wide array of issues, from card check to the stimulus bill. And I think it is emblematic of the rank-and-file American saying, hey, what are these politicians doing not listening to us? And I think that's why it's important in the health care debate that is going to up later this week.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Right.
Let me get your take on something. I want you to listen this is. This is a clip from David Plouffe, who's one of President Obama's top advisers during the campaign. And he was on "Meet the Press" this weekend. And he's talking about Sarah Palin, who was the first big name to break party lines in the New York race. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID PLOUFFE, FORMER OBAMA CAMPAIGN MANAGER: Sarah Palin, and, by the way she's playing the role as pied piper in the Republican Party, which is something I'm quite comfortable with.
So, Sarah Palin, the other Republican candidates who are likely to run, the Limbaughs and Becks of the world are basically hanging a moderates-need-not-apply sign outside the Republican National Committee headquarters.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, what do you think of that, Congressman? Are moderates still welcome in the Republican Party these days?
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: Absolutely.
I think what you just heard was the precise spin that a Democrat or a Democrat spokesman from the White House would want to put on this issue.
But moderates are still very much welcome in the party. We just nominated or are in the process, I think, of nominating a moderate from the Republican House conference for the Senate in Delaware. Moderates are more than welcome.
This isn't an internecine party fight. And anybody who just thinks it is and wants to make the story about Sarah Palin is missing the real issue here. The story here is Americans are upset with politicians who are out of touch.
BROWN: All right.
Let me bring Ed Rollins in on this.
Newt Gingrich is one, among a number, a large number, of Republicans who do think that this party needs a bigger tent and that moderates are being shut out to a certain extent. Do you agree with that?
ED ROLLINS, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Well, first of all, Newt can do whatever he wants to do. He was the former speaker and obviously has his own integrity.
The bottom line here is, this is a special election. And in a special election, you can go in and you can change the dynamics. And conservatives were not happy with the choice. The bosses picked this woman to be the nominee. It wasn't a primary -- the bosses, the eight county chairman.
She was too liberal as far as they were concerned. This is a grassroots movement across this country that basically doesn't want someone else that the White House can say we have bipartisan support because we have Olympia Snowe or we have bipartisan so because we have one congresswoman from New York.
I think at this point in time, conservatives are redefining themselves as a fiscally conservative party. I have been through this so many times. I was with Ronald Reagan when he challenged Ford. Ford was the moderate. Obviously, that was hearsay to challenge an incumbent president.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But are -- the tea party movement or that wing of the party, however you want to define it right now, are they drowning out other voices within the Republican Party who are fighting to be heard?
ROLLINS: There will be plenty of moderates who will run and get elected in the course of the coming years. Certain districts want conservatives.
This is a safe Republican district, has been historically a safe Republican district. And I think the congressman's point, she went from 35 percent in the beginning of October, endorsed by everybody, the NRCC, the National Committee, Michael Steele, Newt Gingrich, to 6 percent.
Sarah Palin obviously was the first big name to go in there and alter the dynamics, but it gave permission for a whole lot of other people to say, hey, let's look at the records. Do you want a conservative? Do you want a moderate? And in this particular case, she chose not to battle it out.
BROWN: But let me go, Congressman, just to the bigger-picture issue here, which is, as you well know, you just said this, for the Republican Party to survive and thrive, you have got to bring in more people, more diversity, more minorities.
Do you risk, when this story plays out in the way that it does, where it seems like you're shutting out a more moderate candidate, do you risk alienating the people that the party needs for the future to grow?
SHADEGG: I don't think so. I think Ed just said it right. There will be moderates that will get elected in moderate districts. There will be conservatives that get elected in conservative districts.
What is happening here is people are saying, we don't want to be told what we're to do or who we're to accept. This is grassroots politics. I think it's really proof of something that's been happening in America for quite some time. If you hold yourself out as a politician, and you say one thing and do something different, the public is going to hold you accountable.
Republicans said in 1994 they were going to govern to the right. They didn't stick with that. They got thrown out. Barack Obama said he was going to change Washington. He's very much in the process of not changing the kind of corrupt things, the power of government, the openness, for example, he said he would have.
(CROSSTALK)
SHADEGG: But he is bringing about a lot of change the American people didn't expect. And that's shocking them.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right. I just -- I want to go to Candy on one other issue, which is the other two races that we are looking closely at, governors in New Jersey and Virginia. These are both blue states that very well could go to Republicans tomorrow. A lot of people talking about whether or not this may be a referendum on the president at this stage. What do you think?
CROWLEY: I think a referendum on the president is stating it too strongly.
It doesn't mean nothing, but it doesn't mean something that big. I think that what we will find out from these two races in New Jersey and in Virginia is a little bit about the Obama machine, that which they put together last year.
Remember, the talk wasn't about a candidate. It was about a movement. Well, if it's a movement and that machine is still working, and the president won both Virginia and New Jersey quite handily, that, you know, surely that would come to the fore.
So, the question is, do those coattails have any durability? He certainly had them last year. Does he have them this year? I think that's an interpretation you can take away. But if you try to make this about 2010, I think you're way off base there, because it's a year from now. You could have health care, you could have a great economy, you could have all kinds of things.
BROWN: Right.
CROWLEY: So, I think, in the moment, it tells us about Barack Obama's staying power as far as other candidates are concerned.
BROWN: All right, Candy Crowley for us tonight.
Ed, good to see you.
Congressman, appreciate your time as well.
SHADEGG: Thank you.
BROWN: Thanks to everybody.
SHADEGG: Great to be here.
BROWN: You will want to be right here tomorrow. Candy, as well as other members of CNN's best political team on television, are going to join me as the election results do come in tomorrow night.
We have brand-new exit polls we're going to dig into. We will look ahead to the crucial 2010 races as well that Candy was talking about right there. Joining us tomorrow. That's 8:00 Eastern time for a special show tomorrow night.
It's been a big day for the American car business, with Ford announcing blockbuster profits for the first time in years -- that coming up in the download.
Plus, meet one sheriff who has been forcing inmates to pay rent. And now they are suing him, asking for their money back. But should they be forced to pay their fair share?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Government needs to look for ways to support the people who are doing the right thing and send a clear message that if you don't, yes, you are going to get treated with regards to paying your way, like everybody else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Growing up Trump not as easy as it sounds. Tonight, Ivanka Trump talks about what it's like having the Donald for a dad.
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: New information tonight about the H1N1 vaccine. How safe is it for pregnant women, and how many shots do kids really need? We are going to have that for you.
Also tonight, "SuperFreakonomics." Forget everything you think you know, and meet the man who is turning conventional wisdom on its head -- when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Some important new developments to share with you tonight in the battle against swine flu. Supply is finally starting to slow -- or to slow the process of catching up with demand.
And federal health officials are releasing new studies they hope will ease fears among those saying no to getting the vaccine. That includes some of the group's most at risk for complications from H1N1; that's kids and expectant mothers. CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Doctor Sanjay Gupta is joining us right now, along with Rachel Campos- Duffy. She's a mom. She is expecting another child. And like a whole lot of mothers, out there, has a lot of questions about the vaccine. We should also mention she's a blogger for AOL's ParentDish.com.
Welcome to both of you.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
Sanjay, let me start with you on this. New information involving pregnant women and children coming out today, explain to us what we know now.
GUPTA: There are two issues that people are trying to study. One is how effective is the vaccine, and are there any adverse side effects. Let me point out, this is very early clinical data, Campbell, only since September 9 have they been studying some of this. What we're hearing is that the two shots for kids, under the age of nine, seems to be best, in terms of producing the best response, making the immune system able to fight off a potential infection. People over that age, one shot seems to do the trick. It's a very small difference if you add another shot.
BROWN: Let me just stop you there, Sanjay. Because before they were just saying, only kids up until two years old, right? Would need two shots?
GUPTA: Well, what they were saying -- up until 10, for a while, they were saying needed two shots. It sort of was a little bit gray between the ages of two and 10. Now what they're saying is there is there's a pretty significant difference if you give that second shot up until the age of nine, they're saying. This is a moving target, as you can see, Campbell.
BROWN: Right.
GUPTA: Also, I want to be very careful with the language here. They said there were hardly any adverse side effects from using the H1N1 vaccine in children, or in pregnant women. What I mean by "hardly any", there was some complaints of soreness around the arm site, some redness, things like that. But again, we're only talking about six weeks or seven weeks worth of data here, Campbell.
BROWN: Let me go to Rachel, here. You're pregnant right now. You've decided not to get the vaccine, but you may give it to your children. Explain your thinking. I know a lot of people can relate to some of the issues you've expressed.
RACHEL CAMPOS-DUFFY, BLOGGER, PARENTDISH.COM: Actually, let me just say I was recently co-hosting on "The View" when they had this discussion, they had another doctor on, immediately after the show, I got a ton of e-mails from moms saying don't get the shot. And among my own personal friend base I would say it's 50/50. Half of the women I know, that are moms, are saying they're going to do it. And the other half are saying they just don't trust the vaccine.
I'm caught in the middle. I happen to have an asthmatic son, whose asthma at this moment is not, the last month and a half has not been under control. We just took him to the doctor today. And made the decision to give him the vaccine. I do not want to take the vaccine for myself, because I am worried about the fetus.
That said, if my town, it's not available to the general population, and only a very, very limited amount of vaccines are available. My son actually will make that list. I think I could probably get on the list. As I said, I decided not to take it for myself. I'm just nervous for my son. But it is a very complicated issue, as you can see.
BROWN: If you can, is there something you can pinpoint. Because I want to have Sanjay address it, if it is, about why you're worried, as a pregnant mom?
CAMPOS-DUFFY: I guess because, you know, even Doctor Sanjay Gupta said, it's a moving target. I know my doctor says it's perfectly safe. But it's interesting to me that people that I really trust and respect, some of them even in the medical profession, have said that they didn't feel confident about it. Like I said, there's plenty of other people that say they are. It's so confusing for parents right now. It's a difficult personal choice. That's the decision I made because of the growing baby. But I just can't take a risk with my son, because he happens to be, right now, his asthma is not under control.
BROWN: Right.
Sanjay, you know, you hear how town Rachel is here. What can we say?
GUPTA: I think she's reflective of a lot of people out there. The numbers that she's citing sort of correlate with our numbers, as well, in terms of people almost being split on this.
There are a few things that I think are worth pointing out. First of all, there are a percentage of children -- of the children who have died who were otherwise healthy. I don't say that to frighten people but I have kids. Campbell, you have kids. We talked about this. At the end of the day you have to make a decision. I made the decision to vaccinate my kids.
You would love to have five, 10 years worth of safety data on anything you ever give to your children. We don't have that luxury when it comes to the flu vaccine. Every year there's a new strain of flu. Every year you have to make a new vaccine. So, you don't have that luxury.
There is also, to Rachel's point, a little bit of confusion out there, even within the package insert on the vaccine itself. I think we have a full screen of this. I just want to point out what it says here. I think this might confuse people a little bit more. It says "safety and effectiveness of the influenza A H1N1 vaccine has not been established in pregnant women, nursing mothers, or in persons less than 18 years of age."
It has not been established, Campbell. It probably won't be established. Again, the flu strain changes every year. One thing I will say to Rachel, in particular, is that your unborn baby can't get the vaccine, really up until the age of six months. There is no vaccine available for your baby. But there have been some studies that show if you get it while pregnant you can confer some protection to your unborn baby. So that is one, I think, advantage as a pregnant woman to getting it, besides protecting yourself, also protecting that baby.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Can I ask you a question, Doctor?
GUPTA: Sure.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: If I get the vaccine, does that go into the baby as well? I would assume it would.
GUPTA: Yes, that's right. That's what I'm saying. Some of the protection in the form of antibodies actually do cross the placenta in this case, and confer immunity to the baby.
CAMPOS-DUFFY: Good.
GUPTA: Again, the baby can't get the vaccine, as you probably know, Rachel, for the first six months.
BROWN: All right. So much to talk about on this front. And we are getting new information from the CDC regularly. So I just want to say, we are going to continue to update viewers with information as soon as we get it. Sanjay's been great about this.
Many thanks to you, Rachel, for coming on and sharing concerns a lot of people share out there. Appreciate your time.
Sanjay, as all, thanks.
GUPTA: Thanks, Campbell. BROWN: And tonight, one of the most bizarre methods we have ever heard of to calculate some of life's great questions. You've heard of "Freakonomics". Well, now it's "Super Freakonomics". It will be quite a mind trip. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN DUBNER, CO-AUTHOR, "SUPER FREAKONOMICS": The feminist revolution affected prostitute's wages, believe it or now. As there was more free sex available for men, the wages of prostitutes fell a lot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Should neckties be banned in hospitals? Which is more dangerous, driving drunk or walking drunk? And who makes a better emergency room doctor, a man or a woman? You're about to learn that the conventional wisdom out there is often just plain wrong. Recently I talked with Stephen Dubner, co-author of the new book "Super Freakonomics"." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, "Freakonomics" kind of took on this life of its own, and it became a huge phenomenon. For anyone, the few remaining people on the planet who don't know what it's about, give a sense.
DUBNER: Yes, what the heck are they thinking, yeah?
So, "Freakonomics" was a book in which we use data and a kind of economic way of looking at the world to tell stories. But we tell stories about things that most people don't usually associate with economics. So, in the first book we wrote about baby names and real estate transactions and the Ku Klux Klan, and whether Sumo wrestlers cheat.
Then we had a good time with the first book and people seemed to enjoy it. So we spent four years trying to figure out what are good enough stories to tell in the second book.
BROWN: Let's look at some of the scenarios you explore in the book. And I think these days, especially with the whole swine flu phenomenon, we're all obsessed with germs. You found that doctors actually are a big part of the problem when it comes to sort of bringing germs into the equation.
DUBNER: Yes. This has been a problem for 160 years we've known that doctors in hospitals have the ability to kill people by not washing their hands. Now, this is not a doctor bash. They have the hardest job in the hospital, and they're touching the most patients, and they're on a time constraint.
BROWN: Right.
DUBNER: The fact is that bacterial infections are a big problem in hospitals and depending on people to just do behavior change, in other words, just to do a better job washing can be risky. And we kind of compare this a little bit to global warming. Pollution is a little bit like those bacterial infections. It's what an economist would call a negative externality. In other words, it is something that I do, but I don't pay the cost of my actions. So, those bacteria that a doctor passes on, they don't hurt him. Pollution that we create, it doesn't hurt us. So, solving those problems becomes even more challenging.
BROWN: You even suggest that doctors should be banned from wearing neckties.
DUBNER: Well, that's not our suggestion. In Britain, the British Medical Association said, look, we're trying to save as many lives as we can. The necktie, if you think about it, if you're a doctor in a hospital, is this kind of giant germ swab, traveling from patient to patient, bed to bed.
BROWN: Right.
DUBNER: They said, look, you know what, you guys are important enough. You don't need to wear a necktie to tell us you're important. Leave the necktie at home. If you save one life a year, by not passing on bacteria.
BROWN: By not wearing a necktie.
DUBNER: Then it is well worth it, yes.
BROWN: That's amazing. One interesting note though, you did say if you end up in the emergency room you're better off with a woman doctor.
DUBNER: Marginally. We look at a lot of the consequences of the feminist revolution. They're very interesting. School teaching, as a whole, got worse, because the best and brightest women almost all of them used to become school teachers.
BROWN: Right.
DUBNER: It was one of the few professions. As they went into other professions, the school teaching talent seemed to fall. The feminist revolution affected prostitute's wages, believe it or not. As there was more free sex available for men, the wages of prostitutes fell a lot.
BROWN: Who knew?
DUBNER: So, as some of these women, a lot of these best and brightest women, went into medicine. One of the good news stories of this is that they seem to be a little bit better in an ER setting, of saving your life, than a male doctor.
BROWN: You also got something in this book that I think is going to get a lot of parents' attention. It was one of the most striking things to me. This is about car seats. We are obsessed with car seats. And we assumed that once you got your kid in the car seat, he's going to be fine. And the data you brought up here, it's going to be, I think controversial when it gets out, right?
DUBNER: Yes. Here's the thing. Car seats don't do any harm. They may be marginally better for preventing minor injuries. But we looked at whole lot of data, real-world crash test data. We even commissioned our own crash tests to compare a child in a car seat versus a child in just a lap and shoulder belt, even though it doesn't fit right. If you think about it, the safety solution, the seat belt is a fantastic innovation. A lot of "Super Freakonomics" is about cheap, simple solutions that work.
BROWN: Right.
DUBNER: Here's the thing. The car seat came along after. I you were trying to protect children. If that was your one goal, would you really want to take a safety device that already works well, the seat belt, and then add this other device that you have to kind of strap in that 80 percent of parents don't strap in the right way.
BROWN: Yes, it's incredibly complicated.
DUBNER: So, it turns out, unfortunately, that car seats provide almost no safety benefit according to our analysis. That's not to say you should throw your car seats away because for one it would be illegal.
BROWN: Right.
DUBNER: The reason we all do it is because the government tells us we have to do it.
BROWN: Right.
DUBNER: Our argument is, if you really want to protect kids, let's work better with the seat belt that's already there, which we know works great, and make it either adjustable for children, or have a fold down part of the back seat so that it fits them well.
BROWN: Another finding that could be described as sort of freaky, I guess, is you say it's safer to drive drunk than walk around drunk.
DUBNER: All right. Let me -
BROWN: Again, you're not endorsing drunk driving. I know, I know, I know.
DUBNER: We're very much not endorsing drunk driving. But we looked at the data and it turns out, that if you face a weird dilemma, let's say you drive to a friend's house, and this friend lives a mile away. You have a party and you drink too much. And then you decide, you know what, I drank too much, I'm not going to drive home. Because I know how dangerous that is. And it is. Driving drunk, bad, dangerous.
But if you make the decision to walk instead, it turns out, if you look at the numbers, it's about eight times more dangerous for you to walk moment drunk than drive drunk. There's an eight times better chance that you will get killed.
Now, you can't hurt somebody else by walking drunk, obviously. But even when you factor in the deaths of innocents from driving drunk, it's safer to drive drunk than to walk drunk.
BROWN: No endorsement!
DUBNER: Again, not an endorsement in any way of driving drunk, but we're usually the anti-scare mongers. We're usually telling people don't worry so much about this and that. Walking drunk you should not do.
BROWN: It is fascinating stuff, as always.
DUBNER: Thanks very much.
BROWN: Always great to have you here. Really appreciate it.
DUBNER: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: When we come back, one Massachusetts sheriff is charging inmates $5 a day for the cost of their care. And they are now suing him, they want their money back. So who's right here? We'll talk to the sheriff when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, the Massachusetts supreme court is considering a controversial plan, one county sheriff wants to charge inmates fees for everything from rent to haircuts. They range from $3 for medical co-pays to $12.50 for GED testing, and those fees add up. The last time the sheriff tried this back in 2002, he raised $750,000. A judge struck down the program but now Sheriff Thomas Hodgson has gone all the way to the state supreme court.
So, is he teaching prisoners responsibility, or violating their rights? And that sheriff is joining me right now along with CNN Senior Legal Analyst Jeffrey Toobin joining us as well.
Sheriff Hodgson, welcome to you.
SHERIFF THOMAS HODGSON, BRISTOL COUNTY, MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Campbell. Thank you.
BROWN: So, explain to us what your thinking is here. What are you trying to achieve?
HODGSON: Well, at a time -two things, at a time where the law abiding citizens of our country are being asked to pay more and get less services from government, I have a strong feeling, as I think most citizens do, that inmates simply because they commit crimes against the law-abiding citizens ought not to be recession free. And if they have money to buy candy, cookies and upgraded sneakers, they have money to pay their basics first. And this allows them to learn the lessons, before they leave, that when you get out of jail you can't make a decision, look, I have to pay my rent or buy a big screen TV, I'm not going to pay my rent. I'm going to buy the big TV. That's not real life. And it shouldn't be inside prison either.
BROWN: You know the arguments of your critics. I mean, they say things like you're making their situation all that much more difficult. You're charging them to take their GEDs, to try to be better educated to re-enter society. What do you say to all that?
HODGSON: Welcome to the real world. That's what the rest of us have to do on the outside. That's what they'll have to do when they get out. Why should parents, who are losing their sports programs in schools, and being told that if you want your child to play sports you'll have to pay extra money; why is it that constantly the taxpayers are given these additional burdens? But the people who cost us the most, and contribute the least, don't have those concerns and can live with moneys to make their life easier in prison, when everybody else is picking up those increasing costs. It's just not right. And it's time the inmates start to pay their way for the crimes they continue to reek havoc on our community.
BROWN: Jeff, is he on solid legal ground here?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think I'm going to give you a mealy mouth lawyer's answer. I think in some areas he is and in some areas he isn't. I think charging for food is not going to stand up. I think you need -- prisoners have no choice but to eat, and the warden has no choice but to feed them. But about GEDS, about haircuts, those are optional items. I think he is on solid ground there, in charging them for it. Now whether it's a good idea, is a separate issue.
BROWN: Well, what do you think? Is it a good idea?
TOOBIN: I think GED is -- I think it's terrible that he's charging for GED tests. These people, by definition, they're in jail. They're not in prison. They're not going to be in there for the rest of their lives. They are going to be in there for two years tops, maybe.
They're going to come out. Is it better for society for them to be high school graduates or is it better for them to be ignorant, and that much harder to employ? I think we should be encouraging prisoners to take GED, not make it harder.
BROWN: Address both of Jeff's points, too. Because I mean, about the fact that how can you charge these guys for food? They have to eat. You're going to have to feed them. I mean, it's the nature of the beast.
HODGSON: Let's keep in mind that we're talking about $5 a day. It cost $35,000 a year, on average, to house one of these individuals in our prison. You know --
BROWN: But just - quick point, let me ask you to clarify. What about the guys who don't have $5 a day. What do you do for the prisoners who don't have money at all?
HODGSON: We debit their accounts for all the services the get and we give them a bill on the way out the door. But what we tell them is, if you don't come back within two years, you don't have to pay this back. If you come back within two years, we'll take what you have in your pocket, apply it to your old bill and carry your balance forward.
But, you know, asking somebody to just go out and leave the people alone in their neighborhoods and to obey the laws like the rest of us, I don't think is a big ticket to pay to write off your bill. So, this is as fair as it gets. It's about time that we start looking at the taxpayer and giving them a break for the increasing costs that they are having to pay for these individuals who keep coming back to our prisons.
BROWN: But, Jeff also, address this: Because they made some money here. What $750,000, is that right, sheriff?
HODGSON: That's correct, in two years.
BROWN: Helping the taxpayers shoulder the burden of putting these guys away.
TOOBIN: I don't think any of us would object to that. You know, the government charges. You charge to get a driver's license. It charges for real estate transactions. The question is who can pay, and whether the money is worth what you're doing to these people. I think certain of these areas it seems entirely appropriate to charge for. But when you're starting to talk about food and education, the short-term gain of get something money may not be worth the long-term problems. But it's probably legal.
BROWN: All right. Sheriff, we'll find out --
HODGSON: I'm not -
BROWN: Go ahead.
HODGSON: I'm not sure that the 1,000 people who are slated to be laid off here in Massachusetts would agree with that. Look, if we can raise $10 million in a year's time from this program, that's not going to save all 1,000 jobs for these law-abiding people who want to feed their families, but it might save 200. I think it's well worth it.
BROWN: All right, Sheriff, we will see what happens. Massachusetts state supreme court expected to rule in a couple months on this. Appreciate your time.
HODGSON: Thanks, for having me.
BROWN: Jeff Toobin, as always thanks.
HODGSON: Thanks, Campbell. Great to be here. Thank you very much.
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" just a few minutes away now.
Larry, I know you were tracking the very latest on H1N1 tonight. What have you got?
LARRY KING, LARRY KING LIVE: We'll get to that in a while, too.
But we're going to kick it off with what to do about Afghanistan. We'll have a great debate tonight. Tough call for President Obama. Does anyone have a solid answer?
And then, H1N1, used to be swine flu. What's fact? What's fiction? We'll talk about the threat of the virus with some medical experts who disagree. We'll also talk with parents who lost a child to this disease. Their story might help you.
We'll also take your calls, all next on "LARRY KING LIVE", Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We will be watching we'll see you shortly.
BROWN: Tonight's "Intriguing Person" is Ivanka Trump, who is sharing some surprising insights about growing up in the life of luxury, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
Tonight's "Intriguing Person," Ivanka Trump. Don't let the last name fool you. Unlike some of her privileged peers, she's no air head heiress. She's smart, driven, successful in her own right, and now she's opening up in a no nonsense guide for women, "The Trump Card: Playing to Win in Work and Life." Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (On camera): You write about the need to make your own luck. And a lot of people are going to hear that and they're going to look at you, and say, my God, she's beautiful.
IVANKA TRUMP, AUTHOR, "TRUMP CARD": Seems short of ironic, right?
BROWN: She's rich. She's Donald Trump's daughter. Why am I taking advice from her? She's born into it. What do you say to that?
TRUMP: I grew up with my father telling me, that the harder he worked, the luckier he got. I believe that it's a great saying and it's actually true. I could go through life and acknowledging obviously that I am a daughter of privilege, and I grew up in circumstances that are unparalleled. With that said, I've worked extremely hard. I haven't relied on that.
BROWN: I have to ask you about your father. There is so much interest in him. He is seemingly on television and the public experience with him, a very demanding person. Was he that way toward you as his daughter? TRUMP: I think he definitely has high expectations of me, and my brothers, and our family, and really anyone around him. I think with that said, our expectations for ourselves and the standard we try to keep for ourselves, in terms of business, and personal lives is probably higher than his.
BROWN: You talk about the different standards that men and women are held to, at the office, in your view, in the business world. Explain what you mean by that and how it's affected you.
TRUMP: What I wanted to do was really talk from the viewpoint of an older sister. Make it a peer-to-peer type of advice book. Not some memoir of my privileged upbringing but some of the things I've observed as an executive, who interacts with young people, interviews young people. And also as a young person, myself who worked elsewhere before joining the Trump organization.
So, I talk a lot about basic skills, negotiating skills, working within different corporate cultures, working within a family business; being a female in a male-oriented workplace.
BROWN: I'm listening to you right now, and honestly, I would say, that how does someone, who grew up in the spotlight, who grew up with tabloids stalking you much of the time, your parents, their divorce, in the headlines? How do you turn out so normal in many ways? I mean that as a compliment.
TRUMP: I give my parents a lot of credit. I think it boils down to them trying to make sure that we didn't have a sense of entitlement in the way we approach life. They always created this artificial separation between what's theirs, and what's ours as a collective. So, you know, we fully recognized, you'll never hear me talk about our planes, as in my brothers and our planes. It's my parents' plane and we can fly with them in it.
I tell a story in the book about my mom making us all fly coach while she's up in first class. Saying that if we want to join her, she'd love the company, so long as we're willing to pay for the ticket upgrade ourselves.
BROWN: Lesson learned.
TRUMP: It's things like that. We got to go on the great vacation, but we weren't going to have to fly first class to get there.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Tonight's "Intriguing Person", Ivanka Trump.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in a few minutes, more. He's going to have a lot more on protecting your family from H1N1 flu virus.
Coming up next, tonight's "Guilty Pleasure": A pool-playing baby? We just can't resist.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few moments. First, Mike Galanos has tonight's "Guilty Pleasure". The video we just couldn't resist -Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, CNN: We just had a taste of it, Campbell. Let's get right to it. The pool shark baby knocking down shots like Minnesota Fats. There he is. One, a kiss off the seven. He gets the lukewarm applause there. That's just one shot. We have more. Yes. It's time to go for number two. He goes opposite corner. He's 2 for 2. The crowd's feeling it a little bit.
BROWN: Yes, take out the pacifier so you can concentrate more.
GALANOS: Yes, right. Come on, kid. Tighten up the diaper. There another one off the seven. Campbell he goes five for five.
BROWN: Seriously?
GALANOS: Five for five. There it was. We missed number five.
BROWN: How is that possible?
GALANOS: I don't know.
BROWN: Pool sharks.
GALANOS: I was checking to see if it was a trick.
BROWN: All right. We've got to go, Mike Galanos. That's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
