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Campbell Brown
Missed Clues in Airline Terror Attack?; Privacy vs. Security
Aired December 29, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Communication breakdown -- the plot to blow up Flight 253. The CIA met with the father of the alleged bomber months ago, so why didn't they connect the dots?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It now appears that weeks ago this information was passed to a component of our intelligence community, but was not effectively distributed.
BROWN: How does one go from mixed up kid to suspected terrorist?
EFEMENA MOKEDI, FORMER CLASSMATE OF ABDULMUTALLAB: He was a peaceful person. He was a friendly person, sociable. And a lot of teachers in the school also liked him because he was just an intelligent kid.
BROWN: But Internet postings paint a different picture of a young man who said he never found a true Muslim friend.
And how much privacy would you trade for security? Full body scanners that can see through your clothes?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I personally don't mind it, because whatever is good for the security, then it's good for me. And I feel safer.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're taking extreme measures, so a body scan is just -- it's inappropriate.
BROWN: Also tonight, why Yemen is such a breeding ground for al Qaeda, and what can the U.S. do about it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yemen could easily become the new Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hey there, everybody.
We're going to start as always with the "Mash-Up." Tonight, we are watching it all so you don't have to.
And we are beginning with breaking news: communication breakdown. The CIA was repeatedly warned about the suspected terrorist accused of trying to blow up a plane on Christmas Day, but that information apparently didn't make it up the ladder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Someone from the CIA met with the father of Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab in Nigeria and spoke with him and prepared a report on his concerns that his son had become radicalized and might have gone to Yemen.
What I'm told by my source is that a report was prepared and it was sent on to the CIA in Langley, Virginia, CIA headquarters, but it wasn't disseminated to the wider intelligence community.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As early as August of 2009, the Central Intelligence Agency was picking up information on a person of interest dubbed the Nigerian, suspected of meeting with terrorist elements in Yemen.
Sources tell CBS News the Nigerian has now turned out to be Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President Obama said today there would be accountability, raising the questions of what, if any, heads will roll as a result of this massive security breach.
OBAMA: When our government has information on a known extremist and that information is not shared and acted upon as it should have been so that this extremist boards a plane with dangerous explosives that could have cost nearly 300 lives, a systemic failure has occurred, and I consider that totally unacceptable.
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It's clear now that the president was briefed before he came out. And that prompted him to come out, that there was a lot more information kicking around and aides are saying he wanted to be transparent and tell the American people that he knew more information.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Much more on this developing story tonight. We are getting new information about what the CIA knew, when they knew it, also new details about how the White House is responding to the situation. We are going to bring all of that to you coming up in just a moment.
Meantime, airports around the country ramping up, as well as refining their security procedures, because the bottom line is, a man with explosives in his pants did somehow make it on to a plane, this as the Transportation Security Administration remains without a leader.
The president's nominee for the job is being held up by Republican Senator Jim DeMint, DeMint's big concern, that the president's pick wouldn't let security workers form -- or would let, rather, security workers form a union. The senator is now under fire and he defended himself on CNN's "SITUATION ROOM."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JIM DEMINT (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Well, I think the American people should be aware that the priority of the administration is to submit our airport security to collective bargaining with the unions. We cannot ask a third-party union boss whether or not we can move a screener from one station to another. That's what collective bargaining does.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Today, CNN learned Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid does plan to force a vote on the nomination when the Senate comes back to work next month.
Turning now to North Korea, the secretive state announcing today it has detained another American who entered the country illegally, but this time, it was no accidental tourist. Korean American missionary Robert Park knew exactly what he was doing when he crossed the border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A South Korean Christian group reported that Park entered North Korea last week country with a letter to Kim Jong Il.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They say Park slipped across the border with letters urging North Korea's leader to resign and free all its political prisoners.
SNOW: Here in the U.S., some friends got e-mails from Park with copies of the letter to North Korea's leader. In it, he says he has a message of Christ's love and forgiveness and asks to please open up your borders and close down all concentration camps.
He willing to risk his life for his missionary work.
PYONG PARK, FATHER OF ROBERT PARK: He said: "I am not afraid to die."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Holding a recent picture of her son, Helen Park tries to hold in the emotion she knows will come.
HELEN PARK, MOTHER OF ROBERT PARK: He's always in my heart and in my prayers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: On the home front, a Texas-sized scandal has one of college football's top coaches under fire tonight. Texas tech coach Mike Leach is accused of abusing his wide receiver Adam James, who was suffering from a concussion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Adam was forced by leach to stand by himself in pitch dark enclosures not once, but twice, in a closet because James had a concussion and he couldn't practice.
EUGENE "MERCURY" MORRIS, FORMER NFL RUNNING BACK: I can tell you that Texas football is different than any football that I know of and particularly in the '60s, when I played. Our coaches were brutal.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Leach's attorney disputes that, telling ESPN the rooms were comfortable and cooler than the practice field and thinks James is just disgruntled by his lack of playing time.
TED LIGGETT, ATTORNEY FOR MIKE LEACH: He was given water and air conditioning and taken out of the sunlight, because he felt like it would be better for his physical condition to do that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Leach was suspended yesterday. He is appealing that decision tomorrow morning. Texas Tech squares off again with Michigan state in the Alamo Bowl on Saturday.
Moving a little further north to Wasilla, Alaska, Bristol Palin is preparing for a whopper of a court battle with her almost husband Levi Johnston. Bristol wants full custody of their baby, and the whole drama playing out in public.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: The custody battle over Sarah Palin's grandson will be played out in public. A judge last week denied a request by Bristol Palin to keep the custody proceedings closed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Concerned about Sarah Palin meddling in the custody battle, Johnston asked that this case remain public so he can feel protected against Sarah Palin, while Bristol stated otherwise. "This case is between me and Levi. My mother," she says, "has nothing to do with it."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She calls ex-husband Levi Johnston's "Playgirl" photos -- quote, unquote -- "risque." Johnston wants shared custody. According to court documents, he denies avoiding his parental responsibilities.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bristol Palin filed a request for sole custody back in November and was trying to keep it out of the public spotlight, but Johnston opposed that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Bristol and Levi both just 19 years old.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight. Now, all the late-night guys on tape this week, but we did dug -- but we did, rather, dig this one up from none other than Conan O'Brien.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": "Wizard of Oz" is coming out in high-def version for the first time. I don't know, though. I checked it out. I think there's a little too much detail in this version. Take a look.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Conan O'Brien, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
When we come back, our breaking news tonight: The CIA met the father of the would-be bomber of Flight 253 and knew of his extremist views. So, why didn't the agency share that critical information with the rest of the intelligence community? Tonight, the Obama administration scrambling in its first big test on national security.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The reviews I have ordered will surely tell us more, but what already is apparent is that there was a mix of human and systemic failures that contributed to this potential catastrophic breach of security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Breaking news tonight on the investigation of the attempted Christmas Day bombing. CNN has learned that the father of the terror suspect met with the CIA, but the report of that meeting was never passed on to the wider intelligence community, a failure that could turn into a major headache for the Obama administration.
Listen to the president. This was just a little while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It's been widely reported that the father of the suspect in the Christmas incident warned U.S. officials in Africa about his son's extremist views.
It now appears that weeks ago this information was passed to a component of our intelligence community but was not effectively distributed so as to get the suspect's name on a no-fly list.
There appears to be other deficiencies, as well. Even without this one report, there were bits of information available within the intelligence community that could have and should have been pieced together.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: For more on this, we bring in our senior political correspondent, Candy Crowley, now and homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve, as well, who broke today's news on the CIA, to walk us through all this.
And, Jeanne, let me start with you.
I know you have been working multiple sources on this story. Just take us through exactly how many times the suspect's father did talk to the CIA and what he told them, what we know about that.
MESERVE: Well, we don't know how many times he talked to the CIA, but we're getting a better sense of how many times he talked to the embassy, and, of course, there are often CIA personnel stationed at an embassy.
A source familiar with the family's contacts says that the father met twice face to face with embassy officials. In addition, we're told by U.S. officials that there were phone calls. We don't know exactly how many, but more than one -- Campbell.
BROWN: And what did the CIA do with that information as far as we know? Did they pass it along to somebody? Did they sit on it? What happened?
MESERVE: Some of it clearly got passed along. There was an effort to take this information and push it along. That's why his name got entered on the so-called TIDE database, which is an enormous list of people who may have some terrorist ties.
As we know by now, he didn't get bumped up to a higher level because they felt the information they had on him wasn't specific enough and credible enough. But there also was a report, I'm told by a well-placed source, done by the CIA personnel at that embassy in Nigeria that was passed on to CIA headquarters in Langley.
And what I'm told is that it sat there for five weeks. It wasn't disseminated to the wider intelligence community. And I'm told that if it had been that perhaps they could have pieced it together with other pieces of intelligence, intelligence that perhaps didn't have a name attached to it, and it would have added up and perhaps they would have been able to stop this flight.
It didn't move out of Langley, I'm told, until after the attempted attack on Christmas Day.
BROWN: And, Jeanne, does anybody at Langley have any sort of response for why this happened, for how it happened?
MESERVE: Yes. Yes, some pushback from the CIA spokesperson. We now have an on-the-record comment from George Little. He's a spokesman for the agency.
He says: "We learned of him in November. That's when the father came to the embassy. We didn't have his name before then. We worked with the embassy to ensure he was in the government terrorist database, including mention of his possible extremist connections to Yemen. We also forwarded key biographical information about him to the National Counterterrorism Center."
Then it goes on to say that, "This agency, like all the others in government, is reviewing data to which it had access, this part of a government-wide review to determine if there are other pieces of intelligence which may have been pieced together."
The president's comment certainly indicates that and my source indicates that. It wasn't that this report in and of itself would have broken the case wide open. The source says that what was needed was for this piece to be put together with all the others that had been collected.
BROWN: And I think that's what's making people so crazy, Jeanne -- and, Candy, I will go to you on this -- is that's what all of this -- that's all the changes in our government, in our lives, the creation of Homeland Security, were all supposed to be about, improving our ability to put the pieces together, to connect the dots.
And that clearly didn't happen here. And, Candy, maybe that's why the president sounded pretty angry today.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: He did sound angry today. You know, this is not a president that's given to a lot of emotion, but there are times when I have seen him over the past couple of years when he's been angry. And this was one of them.
And he clearly wanted to forcefully suggest to the people working on this that he wants to know as much information as he can get as quickly as he can get. One of the interesting things about this, I think, is that this incident occurred Christmas Day, on Friday.
Sunday, Janet Napolitano was on "STATE OF THE UNION." And I specifically asked her how this man was able to get on an airline when his father had gone to an embassy and suggested that he was an extremist and he was worried about it.
And she said at the time, well, we don't know what he said. We're looking into that.
We also know that it wasn't until today that the president came out and began to talk about that. Yet, all the while, I'm assuming, since Christmas Day, there was this report at Langley. I think there's a suggestion there that perhaps neither the homeland security secretary, nor the president, knew about this until some time in the last 24 hours, which I think points up another problem.
Now, it may be that they were trying to connect the dots, they had the report immediately and they were trying to figure out where it had gone. But it seems to me that from Friday to Tuesday is a pretty long time for the president to get this kind of information and it may have led to what he -- his anger.
But it also may have just been the fact that here we are again eight years later, as you suggest. We created this homeland security group so that they could bring all of these dots together and we could stop this sort of thing. And it doesn't appear, at least as far as we know, that this happened. And one of the dots was a big one. It was Britain revoking or refusing this man's visa. Somehow, that information also didn't seem to go anywhere from our strongest ally.
BROWN: So, where do we -- where does this go from here? I mean, Candy, I know that you were reporting that the president is planning to brief members of Congress.
You can see where the politics could clearly take this, with Republicans now having an opportunity to turn this on its head and say that here we have the Obama administration who's dropped the ball on this front. What is this going to potentially turn into? Congressional hearings? What are we looking at?
CROWLEY: There will definitely be congressional hearings. Let me just say it's -- I don't believe it is the president who will be briefing, but there will be top leadership, and the relevant committees will be briefed tomorrow, we think by a conference call, about what has gone on and what they know.
I would suspect at this point -- and I think, as Jeanne said, they're getting pushback from the CIA -- we don't really know the CIA rationale and what happened, but I would suspect at this point that the heat will be more on the CIA than it would be on President Obama. But you're right. It -- 2010, as we know, which -- when these hearings will take place, is an election year. It's awfully hard to wring the politics out of anything during an election year.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead, Jeanne, yes.
MESERVE: Campbell, if I could just jump in, that I have talked to some people, including some from the previous administration, who don't think it's quite fair for the Republicans to pile on to this and make it a partisan issue, because these systems were set up during the last administration.
Now, so there is going to be some shared responsibility here, they feel, if the systems weren't working properly.
BROWN: As we try to delve a little bit more into where the breakdown actually occurred.
Jeanne Meserve -- great reporting, Jeanne.
And, Candy Crowley, as always, appreciate it.
Thank you both very much.
We are going to have a lot more on this, including looking closer at this big question of how exactly this could happen. More than eight years after 9/11, did another intelligence failure nearly allow a terrorist to blast a plane full of passengers out of the sky? We have more experts coming up on how the government can possibly fix this problem once and for all.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's hard to see how the Christmas Day bomb plot got as far as it did. The terror suspect's father met with the CIA. He warned them of his son's extremist views, but apparently the agency didn't spread the word, and the White House seemed caught off-guard.
So, how could this happen and what will it finally take to fix these problems?
Joining me now to talk about this is Fran Townsend, who is CNN's national security contributor and a former Bush administration homeland security adviser, also, Jack Rice, a former CIA special agent, with us here as well.
Fran, let me start with you.
The CIA was preparing a file on this guy, but as we heard Jeanne Meserve tell us a minute ago, it apparently sat at Langley for five weeks. Why didn't it get to whomever needed to see it or wherever it needed to go?
FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, our understanding from the CIA spokesperson is some of the information appears to have made it, but not all of the information. So, that's the question number one.
Then it goes to the NCTC. They're the people responsible. The National Counterterrorism Center is part of the director of national intelligence. They are responsible for putting the dots together and making sure somebody gets on a watch list.
If they got this information and didn't think it was adequate, why didn't they go back to the CIA and ask for additional information? And so you have got multiple failures here, Campbell. It's not just going to be the CIA who has got to answer a lot of questions.
BROWN: So, to that point, Jack, I mean, have we learned anything in the eight-plus years since 9/11? I mean, it sounds very familiar here, one arm not sharing information with the other arm. What's going on?
JACK RICE, FORMER CIA OFFICER: You're absolutely right.
I mean, come on. Let's look back over the last eight-plus years. After spending close to a trillion dollars, turning the entire world upside down and shaking it, starting the Department of Homeland Security, and then excluding the bureau and the agency from it, now they still aren't talking.
This appears to be in my mind maybe just the culture of need to know. For whatever reason, instead of saying, we need to spread this out and figure out what it is that we do know amongst all of these organizations, they have decided to hold on to it again. This is astounding again. And I think for a lot of Americans there are going to be a lot of people who are very angry. By the way, the president clearly was very angry today.
BROWN: Fran, I mean, this was one of the key recommendations of the 9/11 Commission, trying to improve communication between the CIA, FBI, local police. Has there been any progress on this front? You, as you watched it unfold today, did you feel like you were just seeing a complete repeat of what happened before?
TOWNSEND: Well, you know, you would never know it looking at today's performance and the last couple of days, but there really has been tremendous progress. They do share information better.
At the National Counterterrorism Center, you have got people from every one of these agencies sitting there together actually sharing the information. But they clearly haven't solved the -- closed those gaps. You know what I mean? They really need to look at the system and understand, learn from this today, about how could it be that this information didn't -- they didn't understand the significance of it?
One of the things, Campbell, we have seen is the emergence of Yemen as a continuing source of a terror threat. Well, go back to Fort Hood. You covered the Fort Hood shootings. And we saw a connection to al-Awlaki, the Yemeni preacher, and his connection.
BROWN: Right.
TOWNSEND: Boy, they better be looking to see whether or not they have any information that connects al-Awlaki as part of the information coming from Yemen as part of this threat, because, if it does, and they had warnings of this going back to the Fort Hood shooting, there is going to be real hell to pay.
BROWN: Well, we will see how that plays out. I want to keep it a little more broad right now and stay in the area of what we know.
And, Jack, talk to us a little bit about what you know. I know this is more of a sensitive area for you, but explain in a general sense, given your experience as a CIA field agent, how one goes about deciding what information gets shared, how you get it to the right people, how these decisions are made, and where the ball can possibly get dropped along the way.
RICE: Well, it could get dropped in a lot of places. There's always your first, your sort of front-end person here. This is a GS- 12, GS-13 who is probably working at the embassy someplace who got pulled into this.
Once that's done, this may go to a deputy chief of station or a chief of station, the top guys. From there, it should be sent back to Langley. The problem is, you could look at the failure from the person who makes the wrong assessment in the first place and then the person who fails with the analysis at the station level.
Then it gets sent back to Langley. At some point, there has to be a decision on what you spread beyond just the CIA. That's what was critical here. And that's really I think where the mistake was made. They may have known one little piece of this, just like -- this is reminiscent of 9/11, right? We know this one little piece that the agency apparently had.
If they had been able to spread this out to the rest of the intelligence community and the bureau and others, then maybe we would have been able to pull these pieces together. Instead, now what we're talking about is here in the country making sure that nobody wears a blanket over themselves or can go to the bathroom or carry on something when they're flying to Las Vegas.
It's ridiculous that we're jumping to these conclusions, when apparently this failure was very systemic, very personal, and something we're looking at very closely and frankly should.
BROWN: All right.
Fran, I know you are going to come back and talk with us about just what Jack mentioned there about what we can do to try to protect ourselves, the stuff that actually works.
Jack Rice, appreciate you joining us tonight. Jack, thanks.
We will be back in a moment. We're going to move on to another aspect of this story tonight, lots more information coming out about the suspected bomber, including revealing online postings that may be our best window yet into his mind -- that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, we are learning much more about the suspect in the Christmas Day bomb plot.
Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab is thought to have used the online name Farouk1986 in posts to an online Muslim community almost five years ago. He complained about feeling depressed and lonely. But so do millions of other teenagers, so how did this one end up a terror suspect?
Randi Kaye has been digging into that for us today. Randi, I know you've looked at a lot of these online postings. What have you learned?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Campbell, it took us hours to get through all of these postings. We went through more than 300 of the postings online on a Web site called the Islamic Forum.
The user name for the poster, as Campbell just said, believed to be the would-be Christmas Day bomber is "Farouk 1986," which is a combination of his middle name and the year he was born. The key message in all of the postings is loneliness, desperation, and a struggle between following his Muslim faith and temptations of the outside secular world. In one of his first postings in February, 2005, he writes, "I have no friends, not because I do not socialize, but because either people do not want to get too close to me as they go partying and stuff while I don't, or they are bad people who befriend me and influence me to do bad things. I have no one to speak to, no one to consult, no one to support me and I feel depressed and lonely."
Experts we spoke with who study this stuff say he was clearly looking for a sense of belonging. The poster "Farouk 1986" also writes about how loneliness gave way to sexual desire which he struggled to control. He writes, sometimes it leads to, quote, "minor sinful activities like not lowering the gaze," which, of course, the Muslim religion requires.
BROWN: So, are we able to verify these? Do we know for sure that this guy actually wrote them?
KAYE: It seems that he did but not yet. Authorities have yet to verify that the suspect from this failed Christmas Day bombing posted these messages, but they match up with what we already know about his personal history. The poster talks about a desire to go to school at Stanford University or University of California Berkeley.
We know that Abdulmutallab ended up studying mechanical engineering at University College of London. The person writing also talks of attending an elite British boarding school in Togo, Africa. We know that the suspect in this case did exactly that.
Some of the postings also refer to visits to Yemen where he described the people as very friendly. The Yemen embassy in Washington confirms that Abdulmutallab had visited the country between August and December so it does, Campbell, all seem to match up.
BROWN: And just your take, Randi, having read through all this stuff, what stood out the most for you?
KAYE: It's pretty creepy actually knowing right now certainly what he's accused of. But they don't sound like in general, these postings really don't sound like they're written by someone with extremist views. Granted these were posted almost five years ago and a lot can change, but there is nothing here that suggests radicalization. They are the writings of someone depressed or certainly who seems depressed, someone who has broken from his family including his father, who until recently was chairman of the First Bank of Nigeria.
We know that Abdulmutallab, the suspect, is wealthy and is a Muslim Nigerian national. The writings also clearly come from someone desperate to get married and overcome those sexual desires, someone who is looking for pure Islam and true Muslims to surround himself with.
Now one posting in March, 2005 hints at some stronger views, though. So take a look. He writes about former President George Bush. It reads, "I said to myself why not forgive Bush for invading Muslim lands and killing my Muslim brothers and sisters, all the people who oppress the Muslims and all people who do me wrong, for surely, Allah's torment is enough for them. If they don't repent sincerely, I don't need to add more torment on them." Speaking there about the Iraq war, of course. But that is really some of the strongest language, Campbell, that we've seen in any of these more than 300 postings that we've seen online.
BROWN: Yes. Wow. Randi Kaye for us tonight. A lot of stuff to go through. Randi, appreciate it.
A question a lot of people are asking, a very important question, is what to do with this terror suspect. How do we go about prosecuting him?
On "LARRY KING LIVE," former Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge said he should be tried in civilian courts with full constitutional rights. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TOM RIDGE, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY CHIEF: How do you adjudicate the individuals that we pick up from these places and make a determination as to whether or not they should be incarcerated for a long time if not permanently? He's not a citizen of this country. He is a terrorist, and I don't think he deserves the full range of criminal protections of our criminal justice system as embodied in the constitution of the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So what in fact will happen to Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab? And joining me right now is Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman to walk us through this.
Noah, good to see you.
NOAH FELDMAN, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL PROFESSOR: Good to see you too.
BROWN: Do walk us through. What is going to happen to him? How will he be brought to justice?
FELDMAN: Campbell, they've already filed charges or at least a criminal complaint against the defendant Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab in eastern district of Michigan, federal district court. That means criminal charges will almost certainly be brought against him in Michigan.
The charges began with setting, essentially setting a bomb on an airplane which is a logical charge to begin with. That carries up to 20 years in prison. I would not be surprised to see further charges added to that, and then we'll probably proceed to a trial unless he decides to plead guilty.
BROWN: And just to clarify given all the many conversations we've had about military tribunals and special commissions, he will during his trial have the exact same rights as any U.S. citizen would, correct? FELDMAN: That's exactly right. If he's tried in federal district court, the fact that he's not a U.S. citizen is completely irrelevant to the question of his constitutional rights. He gets the lawyer of his choice. He gets to see the evidence against him. It can't be secret evidence. Same as it would be for a U.S. citizen.
BROWN: And, Noah, you said he gets a lawyer of his choice. I mean, we do know he comes from this very wealthy family so theoretically he could hire his own dream team if he wanted to and this could become a prolonged legal circus, right?
FELDMAN: That's certainly possible. It depends a little bit on whether his father who tried to warn the United States apparently against what he was thinking about doing decides to back him and to provide funds. The family could also in principle I suppose cut him off, and then he'd be stuck with the federal public defender.
BROWN: You have a plane full of people who witnessed this. So if you are a member of the defense team in this case, what on earth is your strategy?
FELDMAN: It seems as though you can't make an argument that he didn't do what he was seen by so many people to have done, so then you have to argue various kinds of mitigation. I suppose they could conceivably argue that he was insane, although that doesn't seem like it will be an easy case given what we know so far. But perhaps they can make an argument like that, or they could argue in some way that he had been coerced if they could show that some family member or other person outside the country had in some way been threatened though even that wouldn't be a full defense to attempting to kill people. But pretty much those are your options. You have to either argue that you were crazy or that you were forced in some way to act.
BROWN: And, Noah, there will likely, I guess, be a lot of sensitive security information presented in this trial. Is s there any way, I mean, this is an issue we're grappling with in a number of these trials right now. Is there a way for the government to keep that secure and still use it against him?
FELDMAN: The government will have to be extremely careful. In an ordinary federal trial, there can't be secret evidence. The jury, if there is one, or the court will have to see all the information pretty much the public will see as well. And that means if indeed secret information is used to find out for example about the network in Yemen that may or may not have provided explosives to the defendant, then that information would have to be essentially presented fully to the jury if it were part of the trial.
On the other hand, the government could work around that. They don't absolutely have to provide that evidence if they provide evidence that he committed the crimes with which he's charged. So the government might be able to work around it in some way.
BROWN: And finally, Noah, if he is convicted, where does he end up? FELDMAN: He ends up in federal prison. No Guantanamo for him. And Richard Reid, the so-called shoe bomber, is right now in the super max facility in Colorado serving a life sentence. So that's the kind of place where it's entirely possible he would end up.
BROWN: Interesting stuff. Noah Feldman joining us tonight, Harvard law professor, thanks for your perspective. Appreciate it.
FELDMAN: Thank you.
BROWN: Still to come, what would you be willing to give up in order to try to ensure your safety when you fly? A huge debate happening about this. Some say full body scanners invade their privacy. That story, a debate about that coming up.
And a Christmas Eve miracle. Also, a cop's badge stops a bullet. We'll tell you about that well. Stay with us.
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BROWN: We've got some other must-see news to tell you about happening right now. And Randi Kaye is here with us with the "Download."
Hi, Randi.
KAYE: Hi. Wait until you hear this next story, Campbell. It's really something.
A Tennessee police officer says he lived a Christmas miracle. Officer Joshua Smith pulled over an SUV near Memphis on Christmas Eve. The driver pulled a knife on him, then shot him in the chest at point- blank range. Well, his badge stopped the bullet. The SUV sped off after the shooting and police are still searching for it.
Bush political adviser Karl Rove and his wife Darby have divorced. They were married in January of 1986 and have one son. Former Bush Press Secretary Dana Perino says the decision was mutual and amicable, and there will be no further comment.
And an 85-year-old grandma took to the sky yesterday in Lima, Peru. Abigail Valdez is a granny with a taste for adventure, as you can see. She celebrated her birthday soaring through the air on a paragliding trip over the coast of Lima.
She flew in tandem with an instructor for 15 minutes. Her five kids, ten grandchildren, and two great grandchildren watched her from below. And get this. The challenge was a birthday present from her family.
Quite a challenge. They must have a lot of faith in her.
BROWN: Yes. Go granny.
KAYE: Love it.
BROWN: Randi Kaye for us tonight. Randi, thanks.
Coming up, are you willing to give up a lot of your privacy when you go through security at the airport? How about a revealing, full body scan? Would that be OK with you?
Also tonight, the failed terror attack shines a spotlight on Yemen. A very poor, unstable country that's becoming an Al Qaeda hot bed. We'll talk about that as well.
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BROWN: Breaking news to tell you about now. More breaking news to tell you about now.
Two senior U.S. officials telling CNN that the U.S. and Yemen are now looking at fresh targets for a potential retaliation strike in Yemen. Both officials stress that the effort is aimed at being ready with options for the White House if President Barack Obama orders a retaliatory strike. Again, two senior U.S. officials have just told CNN that the U.S. and Yemen are now looking at fresh targets for a potential retaliation strike in Yemen.
Our Barbara Starr reporting on this for us at the Pentagon. We're going to continue to follow this developing story and let you know as soon as we have more information to share with you.
Tonight, airports around the world scrambling to make what changes they can to try to meet the threats that came so close to ending hundreds of lives on Christmas Day. For instance, today we learned that full body scanners will be deployed at O'Hare airport in Chicago in the next few months and now Canada has decided to limit almost -- or to limit and almost eliminate carry on luggage for passengers bound to the U.S.
Joining us right now to talk about whether these measures will be effective at all, could they be helpful, CNN national security contributor Fran Townsend back with us, as well as Douglas Laird who has expertise in airline security as well.
Doug, just give me your take on these announcements in particular starting with the carry-ons, limiting carry-ons. Is that helpful?
DOUGLAS LAIRD, AIRLINE SECURITY ANALYST: I can't understand what that would accomplish. If you look at the events of Christmas Day, he carried the items out of the aircraft on his person not in his carry- on. So I don't really think it's meaningful. Likewise, regarding the body scan, what I would do is send all that equipment to the foreign airports. I don't see it does much good to scan people at O'Hare. The threat comes in from Europe. It doesn't originate at O'Hare airport.
BROWN: You agree with that, Fran? Are we approaching this the wrong way?
TOWNSEND: Well, I agree that the body scanners ought to be deployed overseas first. That is the first priority. The problem is European countries have expressed privacy concerns. Amsterdam has these machines but didn't use them because of privacy concerns, and they're waiting for a ruling from the European Commission. We need to address that problem. I mean, and we need to address it urgently to get them deployed so people are scanned.
BROWN: Can we address that problem? I mean, is this something that especially given what's happened now, I mean, you know, how many close calls do we have to have before people go, OK, I'm willing to get in line for the body scan?
TOWNSEND: Well, that's right. I mean, I do think that there are some legitimate concerns. I think that the administration is going to have to use the president's privacy and civil liberties oversight board to set rules and ensure that there's proper process around this so we don't unduly burden people. But that said, you know, if we're waiting, if we get any closer, there's going to be an attack. And so we really need to work past this and get these things deployed.
BROWN: Doug, one change already being implemented by some of the airlines is forcing passengers to remain seated. This is international flights for the final hour of that flight. Does that make sense?
Look, I've got two small kids and telling me I have to stay seated with my kids for the last hour is insane. It's impossible frankly. But I mean, is that at least a way for flight attendants to try to control the situation?
LAIRD: You know, when that first was announced by the TSA, I was baffled and I talked with probably six or eight good friends that are in the aviation security business and have been for their entire careers. And quite honestly, none of us can figure out what bearing that has on preventing an incident.
All the terrorists would do is go to the lavatory two hours before and then go back to his or her seat and detonate the device at the appropriate time. So I don't see that as meaningful.
BROWN: So what is -- I mean, I hear you both saying, you know, well, this might work a little bit or maybe not at all or this is a stupid step to take. So if there is one thing that you could both change, given your experience, given your expertise and what you've seen that would help the situation, I mean, all privacy issues aside, what would it be? What would be the one thing, Doug, that you would do?
LAIRD: Well, when you talk about privacy, you have to remember that back in 1972, February of 1972, when we first started screening passengers because of the take me to Cuba situation, that ended the hijackings pretty much. And back then there was a hue and cry about privacy. If you want to keep bombs off airplanes, a key part of that scenario is you have to do body scans so we have to give up certain of our rights for the good of all of us.
BROWN: Fran? TOWNSEND: I think that's right. But let's remember, Campbell, that screening at the airport before you go into the secure area, is one of the last points in the layered security approach. What we really need is for the agencies who collect intelligence and then analyze it and disseminate it to share with one another.
We need to understand in terms of the cargo and people and what gets brought on airplanes long before they show up at the airport so that we're targeting efficiently in addition to the kind of screening that we're talking about with body scans.
BROWN: And not rely on that getting it to that point at least.
TOWNSEND: That's right.
BROWN: Fran Townsend for us tonight, as well as Doug Laird. Appreciate your time. And we should mention, we're going to have a chance to talk a lot more about this dilemma too about how to balance freedom from intrusion with freedom from fear tomorrow with former Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff who's going to join us right here.
When we come back, the growing concern you heard it mentioned here about Yemen. The suspected bomber says that's where he got his materials. That's where he's got his training. When we come back, a close look at a very small country that seems to be a very big problem for us. Stay with us.
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BROWN: We have more now on our breaking news. Two senior U.S. officials telling CNN that the U.S. and Yemen are now looking at fresh targets for a potential retaliation strike in Yemen. It's, of course, located on the southern tip of the Arabian Peninsula. The Christmas Day bombing suspect allegedly told officials that that's where he picked up his explosives. That is where he had received his training.
CNN's Mohammed Jamjoom reports on the area from his base in Dubai and I spoke with him about all this earlier this evening.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Mohammed, explain to people why Yemen has become such a magnet, such a haven for many militants.
MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, Yemen is a very poor country and a very rich neighborhood. I mean, Yemen is bordered by some of the wealthiest countries around. To the north is Saudi Arabia, the largest oil exporter in the world, a key strategic ally to the U.S.
Yemen is a country beset by lots of problems, lots of militancy. It's very poor. The borders are very poor. So it's very easy for militants to come there from countries like Afghanistan and Pakistan.
They also have a big refugee problem, people coming in from Somalia as well. They can get in easily. They can get out easily. While they're there, they can disappear. They can train with militant groups if they believe in that kind of ideology. And there's not much that the Yemeni government can do about it. It's not even just that it's now. For a while now, the Yemen government has been pretty weak and ineffective. So it's seen as a real hub for these kinds of groups because they can operate there very effectively -- Campbell.
BROWN: And to that point, Yemen's foreign minister has acknowledged that there are hundreds of Al Qaeda members operating there. What do we know specifically about Al Qaeda's operation?
JAMJOOM: Well, we know that there are pockets of Al Qaeda throughout the country and it's more worrisome than that too. I mean, it's a resurgent, a very strong Al Qaeda.
Many people are shocked by this, but the analysts that study Yemen really look at it can't be that surprised by it. In the past year alone, you've seen Saudi Al Qaeda and Yemen Al Qaeda merge their operations. They also now comprise Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. They're bigger, they're stronger. They've been able to carry out attacks that have really shocked not only neighboring countries but the U.S.
Just a few months back, they almost assassinated Saudi Arabia's anti-terror chief. And because they're there and because they're so strong, many people are looking at it going we just didn't realize. We knew that Al Qaeda was there, but we didn't realize that they were this powerful and that the government was this weak to really combat them effectively -- Campbell.
BROWN: Well, to that, you said -- you mentioned that twice now that they have this, you know, a weak government that's the source of a lot of these problems. We know the U.S. is giving them tens of millions of dollars in foreign aid. A lot of that aimed at trying to help them fight terrorism. So why isn't it working? Why haven't they been able to get their arms around this a little bit better?
JAMJOOM: Well, many of the experts that I've spoken to said they simply waited too long. I mean, Yemen -- Yemen and the Yemeni government feel that they've been neglected by their regional neighbors, that they haven't received the aid that they've been needing for quite a while now.
Yemeni government officials have acknowledged that they've been battling militancy since the early to mid '90s and it's only been getting worse. And it's really only in the past few years and especially since 2001 that the U.S. government, the Saudi government, other regional governments and allies of Yemen have sort of woken up to how bad the problem is getting, realizing that they must do something about it, not just in order to help out Yemen and help out the government but because they know that if they don't, that this violence is going to spill over into other countries -- Campbell.
BROWN: Mohammed Jamjoon joining us from Dubai tonight. Appreciate it. Thanks so much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And in just a few minutes "LARRY KING LIVE" continues CNN's breaking news coverage of this evening's developments in the bombing investigation. We'll be back right after this.
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BROWN: Be sure to join me tomorrow night. I'm going to have a chance to talk to former Homeland Security chief Michael Chertoff about the would-be Christmas Day bomber. We'll get his take on the intelligence failure, apparently an intelligence failure at the CIA. We'll ask him what we can do to improve safety in the skies.
That's it for now. Thanks for joining us.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
