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Campbell Brown
President Obama's Health Care Summit; Interview With White House Senior Adviser David Axelrod
Aired February 25, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody.
An extraordinary event unfolded in the nation's capital today. President Obama and congressional leaders from both parties came together for a no-holds-barred six-hour health care summit -- that story obviously topping the "Mash-Up" tonight. We're watching it all, so you don't have to.
President Obama says he wants health care reform by the end of next month -- that latest deadline according to top Democratic sources. But it doesn't look like he's getting any closer to the goalposts, even after a day of sometimes heated debate. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Low expectations for a deal going in, and now that it's been wrapped up, where do we go from here?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Low expectations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both sides had really dug in their heels before this summit even began. Now, they used the word compromise a lot, but neither side showed any interest in budging from their fundamentally different approaches to health care reform.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Democrats' strategy appeared to be, appear reasonable.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're actually quite close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We may be closer together than people really think.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: I think we agree with most of them.
SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), MINORITY WHIP: There are some fundamental differences between us here that we cannot paper over.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: The American people want us to scrap this bill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's time to start over.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I thought it was a terrific conversation.
BLITZER: All right, you heard what the president had to say, a terrific conversation, but he's basically told the Republicans, the Democrats are moving forward with or without your cooperation.
OBAMA: We have got to go ahead and make some decisions, and then that's what elections are for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: There was a little grumbling about which side got more time to talk. We actually counted up the number of minutes each party spoke today. Democrats got a total of 135 minutes, not including President Obama, who spoke for 122 minutes. Republicans got just 111.
Just about everybody in today's debate resorted to talking points eventually, but there were moments that were decidedly unscripted and pretty pointed. Here's one you could call Obama and McCain unplugged.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: Both of us during the campaign promised change in Washington. In fact, eight times you said that negotiations on health care reform would be conducted with the C-SPAN cameras. I'm glad more than a year later that they are here.
Unfortunately, this product was not produced in that fashion. It was produced behind closed doors. It was produced with unsavory -- I say that with respect -- deal-making...
OBAMA: Let me just make this point, John, because we're not campaigning anymore.
The election's over.
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: Well, I -- I'm reminded of that every day.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: Well, I -- yes. So, the -- we can spend the remainder of the time with our respective talking points, going back and forth. We were supposed to be talking about insurance.
So, my hope would be that we can just focus on the issues of how we actually get a bill done.
And this would probably be a good time to turn it over to Secretary Sebelius who...
MCCAIN: Could I just say, Mr. President, the American people care about what we did and how we did it...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: ... and I think we ought -- and that's a subject that I think we should discuss. And I thank you.
OBAMA: They absolutely do care about it, John. And I think that the way you characterized it obviously would get some strong objections from the other side.
We can have a debate about process or we can have a debate about how we're actually going to help the American people at this point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're going to have more on this unprecedented event later tonight. We're going to talk with one of the president's top advisers, also a Republican congressman who led the opposition charge today.
Another monster snowstorm pounding the Northeast tonight, and it ain't over yet, heavy, wet snow, strong winds expected to continue until tomorrow morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: A winter-weary East Coast bracing this morning for the second snowstorm in two days. The blizzard is raging from Pennsylvania to New England, dumping up to two feet of snow in some places, cutting power, closing schools, causing at least three traffic deaths. And the storm is expected to intensify over the next 24 hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is snowing like crazy right now in Newark, New Jersey. The storm is getting itself together. There was almost no snow 20 minutes ago.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And now it's really coming down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's very heavy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The National Weather Service takes a look at these storms and they have about 30 years' worth of records. And in all 30 years they have not seen a storm that will do what this storm will do.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": So, wet snow in New York causing big problems already. A local news viewer sent in a picture of a tree that fell on a bus on Fifth Avenue, shutting down traffic. And a man was killed by a fallen branch while walking in Central Park.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to take a look, Moorestown, New Jersey, live, and the snow is coming down and continues to. It's just going to get worse. This is just the beginning, folks. We have got a big storm system getting itself together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: More than 1,000 flights have been canceled at East Coast airports tonight.
In Orlando, the tourists were back at SeaWorld the day after a trainer was killed by a whale. The medical examiner says Dawn Brancheau died from multiple traumatic injuries and drowning. But SeaWorld says the trainer will still work with the whale that attacked her.
Take a look at this. A tourist shot this video of the trainer and the whale. This was just moments before the attack, apparently. And in an interview 10 years ago, Brancheau showed no fear about her work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's talk a little bit about your relationship with the whales. Do they really get to know you, Dawn, and...
DAWN BRANCHEAU, TRAINER: They do. They definitely do. She's watching us very closely. We interact with them all day long in a lot of ways very well. Yes, we do. And we do know them very well. She sees me a lot. She sees my mannerisms. She gets to know me, what I look like, and the ways I interact with her all throughout the day in shows and then in just spending time rubbing her down, which is something we really like to do as well.
Animals are real sensitive to touch, so they can feel all those things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The whale that killed Brancheau has been linked to two previous deaths since 1991.
A never-before-seen FBI videotape shows a real-world spy in action. Pentagon military sales analyst Gregg Bergersen was caught on tape two years ago selling secrets to a Chinese spy for a wad of cash. And take a look at this. This is from CBS' "60 Minutes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GREGG BERGERSEN, CONVICTED FELON: There's a nice Thai restaurant out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, OK.
NARRATOR: This is what espionage looks like. The man driving the car is Gregg Bergersen. He's a civilian analyst at the Pentagon, with one of the nation's highest security clearances. His companion is Tai Shen Kuo, a spy for the People's Republic of China.
Bergersen knew a secret that the Chinese desperately wanted to know: What kind of weapons was America planning to sell to Taiwan?
BERGERSEN: Are you sure that that's OK?
TAI SHEN KUO, CONVICTED FELON: Yes, it's fine.
BERGERSEN: Are you sure?
I'm very, very, very, very reticent to let you have it, because it's all classified and -- but I will let you see it. You can take all the notes you want. It's just I cannot ever let anyone know, because that will -- that's my job, man. I would get fired for sure on that -- well, not even get fired. I will go to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) jail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Bergersen is serving nearly five years in a federal prison. The Chinese spy, a naturalized American citizen, got 15 years.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight. This is courtesy of Jimmy Kimmel, who noticed something funny going on during that apology yesterday from the president of Toyota. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": Because of the language barrier, Toyota was forced to bring in a surrogate to apologize for him, who wisely kept it short and sweet.
TIGER WOODS, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: I am so sorry.
(LAUGHTER)
KIMMEL: There you go. You know, once the apology ball starts rolling, it's very hard to stop.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jimmy Kimmel, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up" tonight.
Still ahead: heated moments at the health care summit today. But what actually got done? It is a question that will affect the entire country for years to come. We're going to hear from Democrats and Republicans coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More now on tonight's top story: the president's marathon meeting an health care. His last-ditch effort to find common ground was marked mostly by civil conversation. But for all the president's talk about compromise, he ended the day promising to move ahead with or without Republican support.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We have honest disagreements about -- about the vision for the country and we'll go ahead and test those out over the next several months till November.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And David Axelrod is joining us right now.
David, welcome to you. As we watched this wrap-up, sort of the end of the day here, it seemed very much to me that the president was drawing a line in the sand for everybody, for both sides, frankly. Can you point to anything, any area where you felt there really was a concrete breakthrough today?
DAVID AXELROD, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Well, first of all, just people sitting down and talking in the same room in a serious way about this issue was a breakthrough, rather than shooting salvos across, frankly, cable TV.
Everyone agreed we have got a very serious problem. Everyone agreed that it warrants answers. And there was some agreement on what those answers should be, for example, letting small businesses and people who don't have insurance through their jobs pool together to get a better deal in a competitive marketplace.
There are other things that we don't agree on. Now, there were some areas on which the president expressed some interest in exploring what he heard, some on medical malpractice, some ideas that Senator Coburn had. There are a number of areas in which there is a potential for additional compromise.
BROWN: But you sound very -- well, I guess much more optimistic than I felt and that I think I felt coming from the president or coming from Republicans, frankly, about this sort of moving toward any kind of compromise.
I mean, it did feel like a bit of a stalemate there at the end, and that the differences weren't just incremental or just political, but real philosophical differences. Do you really think that you're going to get people to cross over and get this done in the time frame that you guys are talking about?
AXELROD: The president's proposal itself very much mirrors one that was offered by Senator Bob Dole, hardly a raving Democrat.
So, you know, I believe that there is reason believe that we can get support for it. And he's willing to move on some issues. But you're right. There are some philosophical differences. A lot of them have to do with how we treat insurance companies, whether there are going to be some minimal standards, whether there's going to be the opportunity to appeal decisions when insurance companies deny care, how we deal with people with preexisting conditions.
That doesn't mean that everyone moves on, you know, in one bloc. And there may be folks on their side who say, you know what, there's enough there for me. Let's move forward. BROWN: Republicans, understandably, I think, were -- were pretty skeptical going into today. The president did make it clear that he's willing to urge the Senate to pass legislation using a tactic that would only require the votes of 51 Democrats. And listen very briefly to what Lamar Alexander, Senator Lamar Alexander, said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. LAMAR ALEXANDER (R), TENNESSEE: We'll have to renounce jamming it through in a partisan way. And if we don't, then the rest of what we do today will -- will not be relevant.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: I mean, David, doesn't he have a point? If the president is prepared to ram it through with just Democratic votes, a simple majority, does that not undermine his claim to be seeking a solution that both parties really, truly can support?
AXELROD: Campbell, I would say a few things about that.
One is, both the House and the Senate have passed the major health care reform bills, and what has been discussed is using the reconciliation process to deal with some issues that have arisen from those bills. But every single Republican senator in that room, I believe, has cast votes for reconciliation, including for the largest tax cut in history that dwarfed this legislation.
And every major piece of health care reform in recent years has been done through that process.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But you don't think there's real danger...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... I guess, just for such a major, massive policy change, like this is going to be. You know this, that, if this were to pass, it would be -- it would be life-changing, groundbreaking, obviously, for a lot of people for both parties, and for, frankly, Congress.
Doesn't that make this a little bit different?
AXELROD: I think the American people believe in the principle, as was articulated by many Republicans on many issues along the way, in majority rule. All they want is an up-or-down vote. And they want to move on.
Let's have a vote. Let's finish this debate. Let's have an up- or-down vote. Let's not use procedural blocks to keep us from having an up-or-down vote. I think the American people say, you know what, let the vote be held. Let the majority rule and let's move on.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: That was David Axelrod from the White House for us tonight.
Coming up, Republican Paul Ryan, he blasted the president's plan today as too big and too costly. But, short of starting over, is there a way ahead at all? And he's going to join us right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: During today's health care summit, the Republicans' advice about President Obama's latest plan could be summed up pretty much in five words: Scrap it and start over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), HOUSE MINORITY WHIP: We just can't afford this. This government can't afford it. Businesses can't afford it.
KYL: Besides that, it's a job-killer.
ALEXANDER: Our country's too big, too complicated, too decentralized for Washington, a few of us here, just to write a few rules about remaking 17 percent of the economy all at once. That sort of thinking works in a classroom, but it doesn't work very well in our big, complicated country.
MCCAIN: My constituents and Americans now, who overwhelmingly reject this proposal, say, go back to the beginning. They want us to go back to the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Republican Congressman Paul Ryan of Wisconsin was part of today's summit. And he is joining me right now from Capitol Hill.
Congressman, welcome to you.
REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: Hey, Campbell.
BROWN: I want to start with the same question I asked David Axelrod, which is, what, if anything, do you think was accomplished today?
RYAN: Well, I thought it was worthwhile. And what we accomplished is, you have to understand, we have been frozen out of this process all session long. So, this is really the first time we got a chance to air our concerns and offer our alternatives.
There's lots of program problems here, a lot of details that I don't think a lot of Democrats have heard. And we haven't had a chance to air these with the president. So, we got to say, here's what we have wrong with this bill. Here is what we would do differently. And we also got agreement on basically the problem, but we crystallized the differences in how we would solve that problem essentially is what we got out of that today, I thought.
BROWN: So, let me just ask you, though, your party chairman, Michael Steele, put out a statement tonight saying that this was another P.R. event for President Obama, at the expense of bipartisan progress and true health care reform.
I'm assuming, from what you just said, you disagree with him?
RYAN: Yes, I don't look at like that.
Look, we got a chance to get together to talk about one of the bigger issues of the day. We have huge problems with this particular bill. I think they are fully intending on jamming this thing through. I think that's what we got out of this. But at least the American people and the president of the United States and the Democratic leaders have heard our ideas and our alternatives and our concerns about this thing, because you have got to understand, Campbell, we have been frozen out of this process all session long.
BROWN: But that doesn't really get you anywhere, like airing your concerns, I guess. Where is...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: My expectations were not that high.
BROWN: OK. OK. Mine were. I was kind of hoping you guys might get a little further along. Did you see any -- any areas where there might have been opportunity for agreement, beyond just sort of crystallizing what the problem is?
RYAN: If you're going to move this bill through, which is a confiscation of 16 percent of our economy, really a government takeover of health care, from our opinion, and I think it's a very justified opinion, and move it through with reconciliation, then maybe add one or two Republican ideas on top of it, no, I don't think that's a step in the right direction.
And what I got out of this and subsequent conversations I have had with rank-and-file Democrats since this afternoon is that they intend on just kind of moving forward. And, so, yes, that's a problem.
But what we got out of today is, we agree that there's a big problem that needs to be solved. There are problems in health care that need fixing. I just don't think this bill fixes the problem. I think it makes them worse.
BROWN: So, let me -- I guess the president has sort of put this deadline out there of six weeks to try to reach some sort of compromise.
Given what you're telling me right now, it doesn't sound like that there's anything to work out or work on over the course of these next six weeks.
RYAN: Based upon what we're understanding and what we're hearing, which is they want to continue to use the right to reconcile, which is a budget process, which is not reserved for this kind of a thing -- this is the largest social legislation we have had in a generation.
Reconciliation is used for reducing debt and deficits and things like that. So, based upon what we're hearing they're intending on doing, it looks to me like they're not interested in sincere compromise, because what we're saying is, let's scrap this thing, start over, and then let's sit down together, collaborate in writing legislation together...
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: ... bipartisanship.
BROWN: But you know that's not going to happen. The president has made that clear.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He has a majority. So, he said, we're not scrapping it. We're not going to start over.
RYAN: That's right. That's right.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: So, are you willing to come to the table and work with what's already there to try to get at least some of your ideas incorporated into that?
RYAN: No, that's the problem. The entire architecture of this program, this entire massive bill is so fundamentally flawed, from our perspective.
And I can tell you, I can walk you through the numbers. It is a fiscal nightmare. It will accelerate the bankruptcy of our country. It will give us a huge deficit. And, so, no, this is a fundamentally flawed bill. We should start over and go over...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: So, there's no hope of any compromise on this bill?
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: Let me put it this way.
BROWN: Let me ask you a couple other specifics. That's pretty clear to me what you're saying. I just want to make sure, that, as long as this is the starting point, there's nowhere to go?
RYAN: They're basically saying, we're jamming through 2,700 pages of law as we want to write it. And if you want to give us 30 or 40 pages, maybe we will take that. That's not compromise. That's domination.
For compromise to occur, the majority party has to collaborate with the minority party, write legislation with them. That's not what has happened. That's not what is happening now. And they're telling us they're going to move this thing through. And so they're telling us that's not what's going to happen tomorrow.
BROWN: So, let me ask you a couple of questions, if I can, about some of your ideas and some of the questions that have been raised about some of the things you put forward.
Medicare, for example, Paul Krugman of "The New York Times" says Republicans are speaking out of both sides of their mouth on this. On the one hand, you hear them say the program is sacrosanct, but on the other your plan seeks to pretty much dismantle Medicare.
How do you respond to that?
RYAN: Not at all. Not at all.
First of all, I put out my own plan to save Medicare, which the actuaries at HHS, the CBO says makes it permanently solvent. I say this. Don't compromise Medicare for people in and near retirement. So, I guarantee the current Medicare system for everybody over the age of 55.
And then what I propose, to make it solvent, because, as you know, it's going bankrupt, for people under the age of 55, give them the same kind of plan that I have got as a congressman, but give more support to people with low incomes and high health care costs, and not as much support for people who are wealthy.
That's what I'm proposing, guarantee it for current seniors, because they have organized their lives around it. And look what the Democrats are doing. The president's bill...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But only for current seniors, just to be clear on that?
RYAN: Yes, that's right.
BROWN: It does -- it would severely limit the number of people eligible going forward in the future.
RYAN: No, not at all. No, not in the least, not in the least. It doesn't limit, no, not in the least.
It says, 55 and above, you get the current system just as it is today guaranteed. The Democrats are saying, we're taking a half-a- trillion dollars out of the current system from current seniors as a piggy bank to spend it on this other new program.
And I'm saying, for people under the age of 54, like you and myself and our generation and our kids' generation, there's not going to be a Medicare for us, because it's going bankrupt. So, I have come up with a plan so that we can all have a Medicare program. It's just like what I have got as a congressman.
I get a list of plans certified by the federal government. I pick.
BROWN: Right.
RYAN: That's what we're proposing for Medicare. Medicare will give seniors a list of plans to choose from. It will give them a payment to buy that coverage with them. And then it will give more coverage for people with low incomes and high health care costs, so that every single person eligible for Medicare gets comprehensive health insurance under the plan I'm proposing.
BROWN: Right. Well, unfortunately, you're in the minority, for you. So, it doesn't look like your plan is going to go anywhere.
So, I guess, when all of this is over, you're going to go tell your constituents maybe next time? What do you tell your constituents after this? Because it's clear a majority may not like the plan that Obama's proposing, but they do want health care reform.
(CROSSTALK)
RYAN: That's right.
So, Tom Coburn and I put out an alternative health care reform plan that achieves the goals we all want achieved, universal coverage, coverage for people with preexisting conditions, lower health care costs, a lower deficit.
BROWN: Right.
RYAN: We have sent this plan to the president two or three times this past year, but we have had no bites, no interest.
BROWN: I don't know why.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: No, I mean, you are in the minority. You're a Republican.
RYAN: Yes.
BROWN: Obviously, he's going to support his plan over yours.
But we appreciate your time tonight.
RYAN: You bet.
BROWN: Congressman, thank you for coming on.
RYAN: Thank you. BROWN: For all the talk on health care today, what does it mean for you, ultimately? Our panel is going to try to break it down for us when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The pressure was on today, as the nation's top leaders crowded in to Blair House for the six-hour sit-down on health care. And with cameras rolling, Republicans and Democrats struggled to find common ground, with most on their best behavior. But, at times, the tone did get downright testy. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: The health insurance industry is the shark that swims just below the water. And you don't see that shark until you feel the teeth of that shark.
KYL: We do not agree about the fundamental question of who should be mostly in charge. And you identified this question -- do you trust the states or Washington? Do you trust patient and doctors making a decision or do you trust Washington?
BOEHNER: This bill that we have before us -- and there was no reference to that issue in your outline, Mr. President, begins -- for the first time in 30 years, allows for the taxpayer-funding of abortions.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), HOUSE SPEAKER: My colleague, Mr. Leader Boehner, the wall of the land is there is no public funding of abortion and there is no public funding of abortion in these bills. And I don't want our listeners or viewers to get the wrong impression from what you said.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Every so often we have a pretty good conversation trying to get on some specifics and then we go back to, you know, the standard talking points the Democrats and Republicans have had for the last year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And joining us now, CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley who is host of "STATE OF THE UNION," our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta, and "Time" magazine editor-at-large and senior political analyst Mark Halperin joining us as well.
Candy, you were sending out tweets during this event today that I was thoroughly enjoying, where you were quoting various participants as saying we're really not that far apart, no, really we're not. But the fact is there is an enormous gulf here. They're not going to come to any sort of bipartisan agreement on this, are they?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly doesn't look that way. And what was interesting to me was it was Democrats saying this. And not really Democrats that you would expect to say it, like Senator Harkin. Oh, we're really not that far apart. It was the Republicans going, there's a huge gap here. We've got to start all over again. And I think that, obviously, there are two different audiences here. But what the Democrats wanted out there was we're really close, don't blow this, we can find some areas of commonality while the Republicans were saying, no, this is a bad bill and we have to start over again.
BROWN: Sanjay, tort reform was a hot-button issue today and medical malpractice reform. We heard it talked about a number of times. The president is saying he's supports it in theory but he's certainly not giving it the emphasis that Republicans do. How much of a difference would it really make or could it really make?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, he was more conciliatory or open to tort reform than I think I've heard him so far, certainly in his closing remarks today. You know, it's an interesting question how much of an impact would it make.
If you look at the absolute numbers in terms of numbers of lawsuits filed, number of cases that actually have a payout, the numbers might seem staggeringly small. In fact, take a look at some of the numbers specifically. About a million people or so claim some sort of medical harm in any given year. Eighty-five thousand lawsuits, Campbell, filed. Only $11,000 paid out. And if you look at the payouts and the settlement payouts as well, it's still less than two percent of medical spending.
I think what sort of caught the president's attention, has caught his attention for some time is the idea that everyone practices differently out of fear of lawsuits. Defensive medicine, Campbell, you've talked about this. And if you have to put a price tag on that, they say it can be anywhere between $600 billion, $800 billion because doctors order more tests. They do more procedures. They make keep patients in the hospital longer. And I think that that, you know, the idea that that culture has really become quite pervasive, you know, makes the case that maybe some sort of tort reform is necessary.
The president in the past has said, all right, my health secretary Kathleen Sebelius is going to create these programs at the state level to try and improve safety. But again, I think today, I heard him a little bit more conciliatory and open than I've heard him in the past.
BROWN: So, Mark, take us through the politics of this. I mean, what happens next? We heard all this talk about this procedural maneuver called reconciliation, that if you listen to Republicans it sounds like, oh my God, they're ripping up the constitution in order to get this done. Is it really sort of that bold a move? And is it likely to happen?
MARK HALPERIN, SR. POLITICAL ANALYST, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, both sides have a case to make. Certainly to remake this much of the economy, to pass this big of program that would affect literally every American through reconciliation is something that's unusual. In some ways it's unprecedented, but reconciliation has been used plenty of times by a majority that needs that extra leverage not to get the 60 votes in the Senate but 50. Today was an attempt not to court (ph) the Republicans. If the Republicans had come in and surrendered, the president would have been glad to accept it. But really what he was doing was like any other Democrats were doing, were laying the groundwork to use reconciliation and whatever parliamentary techniques they need to use to round up the necessary votes to ram through what they can ram through. It's not clear they can do it and get it passed. That's where they're headed.
BROWN: So everybody was basically in their corner to start and sort of never left.
HALPERIN: You know, it's sort of the worst of American politics in the following sense. A lot of people say Washington is very political, very partisan, a lot of fighting. The country wants compromise.
These members of Congress face pressure from within their party to be partisan, but they know that at least some people out in the country want compromise. So you heard a lot of rhetoric about we're not that far apart, let's work together, let's compromise. But in reality most of the energy in that room, was as the president correctly said, the same old talking points from both sides.
BROWN: And it looks like no compromise for anybody coming out of this. All right. Mark Halperin for us, Candy Crowley and Sanjay Gupta, to everybody, many thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
When we come back, what is the solution to fixing a failing school? One district's answer, fire every teacher. We're going to tell you the story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A Rhode Island high school struggles to make the grade and who gets the blame? The teachers. They got an "F" as in fired. Ninety-three instructors, administrators and other personnel at Central Falls High School will all soon be out of a job. CNN's Randi Kaye has our report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Central Falls is one of the lowest performing schools in the state. Of the 800 students, 65 percent are Hispanic. For most, English is a second language. Half are failing every subject. Just 55 percent are skilled in reading. Only seven percent proficient in math.
(on camera): Meanwhile the majority of their teachers are earning between $72,000 and $78,000 a year, well above the national average. And the district says the teachers wanted even more money, as much as $90 an hour more for the extra time spent with students.
(voice-over): This in a community where the latest census figures show the median income is $22,000. Based on federal guidelines, the superintendent proposed teachers work a longer school day, seven hours. Tutor students weekly for one hour outside of school time. Have lunch with students often. Meet for 90 minutes every week to discuss education. And set aside two weeks during summer break for paid professional development.
A spokesman for the school district told me the teachers union wanted to negotiate the changes. So the superintendent felt she had no choice but to fire all 88 teachers for the next school year.
(on camera): A spokesman for the teachers union called the firings, quote, "drastic," and told me in the last two years reading scores have gone up 21 percent. Math scores he said have also gone up three percent. The spokesman said that the teachers had accepted most of the changes but just wanted to work out the compensation for the extra hours of work.
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BROWN: That was Randi Kaye reporting. But joining us now to talk about this is George McLaughlin, who is a guidance counselor at Central Falls, at least for now, we should say, and also Alice Webb, who has four children who have gone to the high school. Three are still there. And, Alice, I read that you went to the school, yourself, actually. Your kids, too, obviously, and the kind of results we just heard, that has got to concern you as a parent, doesn't it?
ALICE WEBB, PARENT: I know that the teachers have done a wonderful job. You cannot blame the teachers for the situation.
BROWN: Why not? Who do you blame?
WEBB: I blame the absenteeism, the family. The home life is very challenging in this city. The language barrier, the absenteeism, the tardiness, you really can't fix some of those problems and you certainly can't blame it on the teachers.
BROWN: But they have been fixed or at least improved more than where your school is in other places. You don't feel like the administrators needed to do something pretty drastic here, given how bad those scores were and the failure rates?
WEBB: No, because we implemented a portfolio program and various other things that we did that we just need some more time on improving. But there are some things that we still need to work on but the teachers are not to blame. They give 110 percent. They have a personal relationship with the students. The students love their teachers.
BROWN: George, you and your wife, I understand she's a chemistry teacher. You're both going to lose your jobs at the end of the year. At least it looks that way for now. Obviously, I'm guessing you think that's unfair. But you would argue that the teachers are at least partly responsible?
GEORGE MCLAUGHLIN, GUIDANCE COUNSELOR: Well, I would -- well, first, I would argue that many of the statistical circus that has been bandied about by management is really unfair to us.
BROWN: Well --
MCLAUGHLIN: Fifty percent of our students do not fail all their classes. I'm a guidance counselor. I have it from my computer.
BROWN: OK, but I'm just -- my reporter got -- I have those numbers, too.
MCLAUGHLIN: Thirteen and a half percent --
BROWN: That if I can just say this and then you're certainly welcome to dispute these numbers.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
BROWN: But they came directly from the school district or our reporter spoke directly with the school district and got these numbers from them that 400 are failing every single subject.
MCLAUGHLIN: Good, well, you know, if I were a coal miner and you said they came directly from the coal barons, you know, know, I could contest it. You know, I'm a guidance counselor. I deal with all those failures every day. We have 4.5 percent --
BROWN: So who do you blame for this? Who -- what do you think the problem is?
MCLAUGHLIN: I don't think the truth is being told. 4.5 percent of our students are failing all their classes. Not 50, 4.5. 13.5 are failing half of their classes.
We have 22 percent of our students who are on the honor roll. So, you know, it's one thing in fair play for us to argue about things but when you get into the statistical circus, lots of things are thrown out and they become fact after they're repeated three or four times.
BROWN: So let me just ask you, though, as Randi pointed out, just kind of where -- because you're right, there is a lot of finger pointing back and forth. Just to clarify here, were the teachers willing to do all the extra work they were called upon in order to improve the school? Randi mentioned it in her piece a moment ago, which is a longer school day.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
BROWN: That's seven hours. You know, I think most of us work at least seven hours a day, tutoring the students weekly, having lunch with the students.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
BROWN: Ninety-minute meetings to discuss education and some paid development during the summer.
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes.
BROWN: None of that sounds to me like to be all that unreasonable.
MCLAUGHLIN: Right. Well, we never got to the point where that was discussed. We never got to the point where we talked about that or any compensation or anything else as far as I know. As far as I know the issue was --
BROWN: Well, your union people did, right?
MCLAUGHLIN: Yes, but that was never -- none of this was put in writing that said we're going to give you stability in the school. We have a contract until the end of June after this. So all we wanted was job security. Everybody who's there.
I have 32 years in education. I have 15 years in this school. OK? You know, to say that I might be re-evaluated after 32 years, you know, five teaching certificates and three degrees is a little bit --
BROWN: I'm not questioning any of that. But I think as a parent or anybody who is looking at the school and would see these kind of failure rates, you know, it doesn't matter how much experience I think any of the teachers have if the students aren't performing. And there has to be some accountability ultimately.
MCLAUGHLIN: Well, that's obviously a concern to every parent and to every student and to every citizen in a community. The difference is we have the highest percentage of transient students in our state. We have the highest percentage of (INAUDIBLE) students. And we have the second highest number of special ed students. So to compare us to Greenwich, Connecticut, or Shaker Heights, Ohio, is a little ridiculous in a way.
BROWN: All right.
MCLAUGHLIN: Compare us to the other communities that are like us, and that would be fair. But you know, I'm not here to argue those points. I'm here to say, let's go back to the negotiating table. Let's go back, and as far as I know management walked away from it. Let's stop pointing fingers and go back to the negotiating table and Central Falls has a great, proud tradition, including Mrs. Webb and including our former Governor Lincoln Armand (ph).
BROWN: Right. All right.
MCLAUGHLIN: You know, let's not break that tradition and throw everybody out in the street.
BROWN: George McLaughlin and Alice Webb, appreciate you both joining us tonight. Thanks very much.
I do want to bring in CNN's education contributor Steve Perry to sort of put this in a bigger picture context for us.
And, Steve, just give me your reaction to what you just heard there from George, especially who said, you know, that you can't compare his community to places like Greenwich, Connecticut, where they have more money and they don't have the same population or the same challenges.
STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: Mr. McLaughlin has some nerve. Here is a man who's being paid to educate in a school that has failed 93 percent of its children. They're not being compared to Greenwich. They're being compared to other communities within their state. They're being compared to individuals who have taken --
BROWN: Wait. Just let me ask you about the 93 percent, because that's not what I have. Where did you get that number?
PERRY: Ninety-three percent, 93 percent of the students have failed the state's math examination -- 93 percent. And that's down from 97 percent the year before.
What Mr. McLaughlin made clear is that he is interested in himself. He wants to make sure he has job security. The audacity to ask for job security at a fail rate such as that? He thinks he should be guaranteed a job after that?
This is a great day in public education. This is a time when communities have taken back their schools.
BROWN: And let me just say, I'm wishing that the two of you could have had this debate. But we couldn't get him to go on with you, unfortunately, so that I'm having to sort of play the role of devil's advocate with everybody. But let me ask you about the argument that we heard him make along with Mrs. Webb that, you know, they're fighting challenges like poverty, transient population, where many of the kids don't speak English. It's that not a valid argument.
PERRY: No, it's not a valid argument. And in fact if that's the case, if what he's saying is he and his fellow teachers cannot educate that population because of the limitations, we understand. We forgive you. Good luck in your new job. If you can't educate the population you're being paid to educate, then why should we hold you in the position?
The reason why they don't want to have this discussion is because the truth is making its way to the surface. It's not just Central Falls, however. All over the country there are schools in which students are performing so poorly and teachers are being paid well. We're talking about teachers that are making almost $80,000 a year for working eight months a year and 6 1/2 hours a day, and they think it's OK that we -- that they talk about more compensation? For what?
BROWN: Yes, these teachers at the school, just to be clear, were making $72,000 a year.
Steve, we have to end it there. Steve Perry, thank you for your time tonight and our previous guests. Again, I wish we could have had you all on together. We'll push harder for that next time. Many thanks to everybody. We have some breaking news to tell you about that tonight. Charlie Rangel, one of the most influential members of Congress, just went on camera to deny charges he broke House rules. Details coming up in tonight's "Download."
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BROWN: Breaking news right now. We've just learned what happened to that former child star who has been missing for days. Mike Galanos here with tonight's "Download" -- Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: It's a sad update, Campbell. A body found in a park in Vancouver is that of actor Andrew Koenig. The former "Growing Pains" star has been missing since Valentine's Day. Members of his family says that Koenig committed suicide. Now, he's the son of Walter Koenig who played Chekov in the original "Star Trek" series.
Another story breaking just moments ago. Powerful New York Congressman Charlie Rangel announced he will be formally admonished on Friday by the House Ethics Committee. Rangel calls it disturbing. But the issue concerns who paid for travel he and members of the Congressional Black Caucus took to the Caribbean back in 2007 and 2008. Tonight, Rangel said the Ethics Committee had approved that travel.
Well, Sarah Palin will headline the National Rifle Association's annual meeting in May. The former vice presidential nominee is an NRA member, an avid hunter, strong advocate for gun rights. The NRA meeting will be in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Finally this, a shark-filled tank burst in a crowded mall in Dubai. Incredible video here. That's water you see there. Hundreds of gallons showered some of these shoppers who were forced to run out of the building. That water ended up about ankle deep. All of the fish, the sharks in the tank, well, nobody hurt but quite a scare for the folks in Dubai.
Campbell, back to you.
BROWN: Yes, that doesn't happen every day.
GALANOS: No, it doesn't.
BROWN: Mike Galanos, thanks, Mike.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting in just a few minutes. But up next, our series "Broken Government" looks at a trick politicians use to help keep their jobs. Redrawing congressional districts into some pretty strange shapes. Wait until you see how far it has gone in one state.
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BROWN: Tonight, our special series "Broken Government," looks at the partisan battle literally dividing voters nationwide. It happens every 10 years when the nation's congressional districts are redrawn. In Florida, a map of those districts looks more like a genius-level jigsaw puzzle. And CNN all platform journalist John Couwels shows us there is now a movement to stop the slicing and dicing.
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JOHN COUWELS, CNN ALL PLATFORM JOURNALIST (voice-over): A cul- de-sac in Coral Springs looks ordinary now, but there's an invisible line that splits it in two.
(on camera): I'm standing in the 19th district, but the neighbor on this side of the fence, he's in the 22nd district.
(voice-over): That neighbor, Anthony Pellerito lives with his family unaware that next door Lilia Espinosa lives in a different district with a different congressman.
ANTHONY PELLERITO, LIVES IN DISTRICT 22: That little fence separates everybody, huh?
LILIA ESPINOSA, LIVES IN DISTRICT 19: It's crazy. Doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
PELLERITO: Shocking to have you on my property line. What are the chances of that?
ESPINOSA: Just for the benefit of the party. They don't -- to get their votes and to get whoever they want elected. And that's it.
COUWELS: In 2002, the state legislature, then Republican controlled, redrew the boundary lines of congressional districts at the cost of $11 million. The 22nd was redesigned. The idea, to keep a Republican by chipping away pockets of Democrats. It's called gerrymandering. But in this case it didn't work.
The district elected a Democrat in 2006. By then, the 22nd had the shape of a jagged flagpole. The 22nd congressional district was redesigned in 2002. So were other districts at a cost of $11 million.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Instead of common sense standards put in place.
COUWELS: Ron Klein is that Democratic congressman.
REP. RON KLEIN (D), FLORIDA: Over here it goes line by line and street by street. And you see all over the place that instead of having sort of a geographic area one member of Congress represents this. Another represents that. You've got communities divided, streets divided. I think we can do better and I think there's an approach in Florida to put a constitutional amendment on the ballot called fair districts.
COUWELS: He's the incumbent and even he says the boundaries makes no sense.
KLEIN: I think if that passes, which, again, doesn't advantage either political party, just does right by the voters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me.
KLEIN: Just divided up a community that shares the same schools, shares the same YMCA, the same supermarkets, the same churches and synagogues and things like that. And that dividing up of these communities to me just doesn't make any sense.
COUWELS (on camera): The crazy design of this district could be eliminated in November, if voters choose to vote for an amendment to the Florida constitution that would eliminate the crazy designs that supporters say only benefit the politicians. Instead, districts will be designed to benefit the voters.
John Couwels, CNN, at Jupiter Inlet.
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BROWN: And that's it for us. You can follow me any time on Twitter. "LARRY KING LIVE" is coming up shortly. Have a good night.
