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Campbell Brown
President Obama's Final Health Care Reform Push
Aired March 19, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, everybody.
They are working late into the night on Capitol Hill. These are the crucial hours in the health care debate, with the vote expected just hours from now. It is obviously the biggest story in the country, and it is where we start our "Mash-Up." As always, we're watching it all so you don't have to.
President Obama held one last rally today flanked by cheering supporters. But the real action was taking place behind closed doors in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Take a look at these faces. These are the House Democrats who could decide the fate of health care reform, one way or another. By CNN's count, more than 30 of them are on the fence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Democratic leaders are working to nail down commitments from their undecided House members.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I will be voting yes for the bill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the first time I'm announcing that I will vote for the bill.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm a firm no on it.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Right now, we are at the point where we are going to do something historic this weekend. That's what this health care vote is all about.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are roughly two dozen members of the House whom the president is targeting in his full-court press. He spoke to 20 of them today alone, almost all of them on the phone to and from the rally, but a handful in person, secretly, at the White House.
REP. ERIC CANTOR (R-VA), HOUSE MINORITY WHIP: We know they don't have the votes for this bill.
REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: Americans are jamming the phone lines here on Capitol Hill. They are screaming at the top of their lungs to say, stop, just stop. Republicans are listening, and we're standing with them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We are going to have a live report from Capitol Hill in just a moment.
Health care reform obviously the president's top domestic priority, but he hopes Democrats will not pay a price in November. In an interview with CBS News, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel says he is not worried.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": Do the midterm elections keep you up at night at all?
RAHM EMANUEL, WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: No. I think that, first of all, we have a time to go in the election, a lot to play out. I think the Republicans have a level of energy, but inside that energy is their own problem and fissures. And they're basically at the behest of a fringe group that has taken control of their party and their own leaders are scared of it.
COURIC: The Tea Party movement.
EMANUEL: Yes. So, I can give you a more pertinent and more -- or rather a more informed answer in June and July. And anybody that does politics would tell you that you couldn't answer that now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: President Obama will deliver a pep talk to House Democrats tomorrow.
In Rome, Pope Benedict XVI signed a letter of apology today for the sex abuse scandal that has rocked the Catholic Church in Ireland. That letter will be made public tomorrow. But Catholics in Germany are waiting to find out if the pontiff will also address abuses committed there decades ago in Benedict's own diocese.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They are questions that began two decades ago when the pope was known as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. For 23 years, he was the Vatican's chief investigator into allegations of abuse by priests.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Peter Hullermann, a priest in his diocese, was accused of molesting young boys. Dr. Werner Huth was the psychiatrist treating Hullermann at the time. The Vatican says the pope knew about Hullermann's counseling.
Huth says he warned the church 30 years ago that the priest was a pedophile and shouldn't work with children. But after treatment, his patient returned to work and continued to abuse young boys.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Victims are demanding that the pope tackle what they call a conspiracy of silence that protects offending priests, at the expense of young children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: As Cardinal, Joseph Ratzinger was responsible for a 2001 Vatican edict instructing bishops to secretly report all cases of child abuse to Vatican authorities.
In Haiti, it seems there is no end to the misery. Today, homeless quake survivors were nearly washed away in one of the heaviest rainfalls since the January earthquake.
CNN's Sara Sidner was there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I can barely walk down this slope without slipping. And there's so much mud, you get stuck in it. We just spoke to one of the families here.
Jean Pierre (ph), his entire family was unable to sleep last night, like many people in this camp, because the water was starting to rise in their tents. So, they had to sit on the pallet just above the water to keep dry. All of their stuff was ruined. They have no idea how they are going to deal with this.
But he's just taking things out and trying to make basically a better place for them to live. It's extremely difficult in these conditions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Former Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush travel to Haiti next week to meet with government officials and relief workers.
Now, there are losers in the world, and then there are losers who steal money from Girl Scouts. And that is exactly what happened last night in Tacoma, Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are hoping to find a man seen in this surveillance video last Thursday running up to a table selling Girl Scout cookies and just snatching the cash, $465. The victim? A 16-year-old Scout. Her name is Beverly Reed, and she was left just heartbroken.
BEVERLY REED, GIRL SCOUT: A very tragic experience for me.
It just happened last night, so I'm still really shaky. I didn't really sleep last night. His head is in my mind. I can picture him. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reed's community has stepped up with donations to cover her losses. One man gave her $500, and a radio station donated nearly 41,000.
REED: I'm still going to sell cookies, because that's what I do. And I raise money for Girl Scouts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Beverly says she will use any of the leftover money to send Girl Scout cookies to troops serving in Iraq.
And that brings us to the "Punchline." This is courtesy of Jay Leno, who thinks he knows what convinced one health care holdout to vote yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich announced that he will change his no-vote and he will vote yes on health care.
Now, I don't want to imply that he made a deal, but he announced it at Cleveland's new Dennis Kucinich Airport, which is right next to the Dennis Kucinich Highway and the new Dennis Kucinich Middle School.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jay Leno, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
The health care endgame is in sight. The vote could come in less than 48 hours tonight. One congressman here to say why he is changing his mind right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This is it. After more than a year of fierce debate, the health care bill will finally have its make-or-break moment on Sunday, when the House is expected to vote.
Today, with his political capital on the line, President Obama made one last public push. He was in Virginia. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: And if you believe that it's right, then you've got to help us finish this fight. You've got to stand with me just like you did three years ago and make some phone calls and knock on some doors, talk to your parents, talk to your friends. Do not quit, do not give up, we keep on going.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We are going to get this done. We are going to make history.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And I want to start now with our senior congressional correspondent, Dana Bash.
And, Dana, today, a number of undecided lawmakers did finally make up their minds. Where do things stand right now?
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.
Lawmakers have had about a day to read the changes to the Senate bill and to get a sense of what the cost estimates are for this. And a number of Democrats did come off the fence and chose sides. And about a handful actually were pickups for the Democratic leadership, meaning Democrats who voted no for the House bill in November who now say they will vote yes.
And that included two vulnerable House Democrats, who said, you know what, they believe that this now is better for them in terms of cost containment and in terms of reducing the deficit. But not everyone is breaking for the House leadership. They had some yeses go to nos.
And you still have a lot of holdouts, Democrats who are fighting for their issues, everything from Medicare disparities, payments to their states, to really big issues tonight, like abortion.
BROWN: Well, I was going say, and you're hearing there is something going on? It could be an 11th-hour problem. Abortion has been a sticking problem for a lot of people throughout the debate. What is happening?
BASH: Campbell, this is deja vu, just like it was before the House vote. As we speak, Campbell, right down the hall, this is the House speaker's office. She is having urgent meetings with several Democrats on this issue of abortion.
And what is going on is that anti-abortion Democrats, led by Bart Stupak of Michigan, are now asking for a vote on their language on abortion, which is more restrictive when it comes to taxpayer funding for abortion.
And guess what? Abortion-rights Democrats, they are furious. We just watched some of them come out of a meeting with Nancy Pelosi really visibly angry, saying, this is it. If this -- if there is a vote on this, then, from their perspective, if it passes and the abortion language is more restrictive, they're going to bolt from the health care bill.
So, these meetings are going on. It's unclear how this is going to be resolved. It's pretty ugly.
BROWN: And President Obama obviously not taking anything for granted. He is meeting with House Democrats tomorrow. What are we expecting out of that? BASH: We expect a pep rally. This is what the president did before the House passed its vote -- its health care bill, before the Senate passed its.
This is something that -- that the president feels he needs to do. He has been making so many calls, Campbell. He has been having one-on-one meetings. He's -- the lobbying has been going on, but this is the final hurrah.
For some Democrats, it certainly could help to hear the president tell them that he needs them. But for some -- there was one congressman today who said that he actually is not taking the president's calls, because it certainly won't help to have pressure from the White House. He says he wants to decide this issue on his conscience and based on what his voters are saying.
BROWN: All right, Dana Bash from Capitol Hill -- Dana, thanks so much.
Take a look. I think we have got a picture here. These are the lawmakers who hold the key to health care reform tonight. The latest CNN count shows 29 Democrats have yet to announce how they will vote. They're in for a long painful weekend, facing a lot of phone calls, e- mails, constituents beating down their doors, not to mention all the pressure from colleagues, and, yes, the president himself.
One of the most closely watched congressmen has been Ohio's John Boccieri. And, this morning, he came off the fence and announced he is voting yes.
Congressman Boccieri is joining me right now.
Welcome to you, Congressman.
REP. JOHN BOCCIERI (D), OHIO: Hey. Thanks for having me.
BROWN: Appreciate your time.
You voted against the health care bill when it passed the House last year. Now you're voting yes. What changed your mind?
BOCCIERI: Well, we were waiting for the Congressional Budget Office numbers to come back. And we were extremely pleased that, over the first decade, we are going to save $138 billion and in the second decade nearly $1.2 trillion.
This is one of the largest deficit reduction bills since 1994, under President Clinton. So, this was a huge factor in my decision.
BROWN: And these numbers were obviously enough to make you feel good about going -- going yes, right?
BOCCIERI: Well, I certainly have had this ongoing discussion with my constituents back in the district. And I have been compelled by the story of Ms. Canfield, who is in a hospital room as we speak, fighting for her life, at the Cleveland Clinic. She is a constituent of mine. The president highlighted her story. And she really compelled me to understand that this is the face of the dialogue and the debate that we're having here in Washington.
BROWN: So, do you think she represents the majority of your constituents? Have you been mostly receiving phone calls urging you to support the legislation or more angry phone calls urging you to vote against it?
BOCCIERI: The angry phone calls that we do receive, Campbell, are folks who are just fed up with the process and the fighting and the arguing that go back and forth. And it's so frustrating, too.
We want the Republicans to come to the table. In fact, when this bill is amended and reconciled, we're going to have a bill that is extremely similar, if not completely identical, to the bill that was introduced in 1993 by Senator Lincoln Chafee and Bob Dole as a counterproposal to President Clinton's health care reform debate.
BROWN: Now, you are a freshman. If I read this right, you're also the first Democrat your district has sent to Congress in 36 years. Are you worried your decision today will cost you your job in November, because you are in for a fight this fall?
(LAUGHTER)
BOCCIERI: Well, we understand that elections are things that come and pass. And I certainly will defend and stand on my record.
But, at the end of the day, this is not about my future. It's about the future of the people who I represent, who are one accident, one medical emergency, one diagnosis away from complete bankruptcy, because they don't have health care insurance.
BROWN: So, a number of your colleagues still on the fence, particularly lawmakers in swing districts who are -- could be facing some real trouble. What's your message to them? How do you get them across the line?
BOCCIERI: Well, I think they have got to reach that decision on their own. I know they're having a discussion with their constituents. And for me, after highlighting Ms. Canfield and her situation and the three individuals that I had today, a young child with autism, day one, when this bill passes, he is not going to be denied health care insurance because of his preexisting condition.
And I believe they have got to reach within themselves, look deeply within their districts, and come to this decision and to their decision-making process on their own.
BROWN: Last question here. Do you want President Obama to campaign for you? Or do you think...
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: You know, seriously, do you think he will hurt you more than he will help you?
BOCCIERI: Well, at the end of the day, people elect me to be their congressman. They don't elect the president. And while I would be gracious to have the president speak nicely of me, I think, at the end of the day, I want to win this seat for myself.
BROWN: So, will you have him campaign for you or not?
BOCCIERI: Well, I would be honored to have the president of the United States in my corner and talk progressively what we have done here in Washington. At the end of the day, though, the people of the 16th District elect me to be their congressman.
BROWN: All right, Congressman Boccieri, appreciate your time tonight. Thanks so much.
BOCCIERI: Thank you.
BROWN: No matter what anyone in Washington says, there is a clear political liability coming with this weekend's vote and a possible legal fight looming here as well. We're going break all that down for you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As the drama builds and the hours tick away to Sunday's expected health care vote, both sides say this isn't a battle over politics. Yet, the result is likely to have a lasting imprint on the political landscape.
And with me now to talk about that is "TIME"'s senior political analyst, Mark Halperin, and senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joining us as well.
Mark, we have seen the steady sort of drip-drip of undecided Democrats crossing the line, getting in the yes column, making Nancy Pelosi very happy. Does she have all the mojo right now?
MARK HALPERIN, SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST, "TIME": Well, most of the votes have gone in that direction. The White House and the Democratic leaders know they have to get just to the finish line. They're not going for a landslide. We talked about that earlier in the week.
I think that most everything has gone their way. They have created a sense of momentum. The CBO scoring was helpful for them. And the Republicans united is starting to stiffen the spines of the Democrats.
And now you have got the president not only staying in town, but going up to Capitol Hill tomorrow for a final pep rally. He's been strong all week.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: That's what I was going to say. How has he played the endgame? This is important, these final...
HALPERIN: He has been good publicly because he has been emotional. This is one of the missing ingredients of Barack Obama's presidency.
This extended fight for health care has been pretty low-key. He has had flashes of being outspoken and vibrant, but I think he has done that really well in the last week, starting in his event in Philadelphia and with the event yesterday -- or earlier in the week in Ohio and then today in Virginia. He is giving them the kind of cover to feel like this is a positive thing. They can vote for it. It's the right thing to do and, as he's telling them all, essential for his presidency.
BROWN: And, Jeff, if this passes, they're going to have to turn on a dime and go from this battle to yet another battle, which is November, and how to hold on to their majority.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: And I think the politics perhaps at least have shifted a little bit on that, because the Democrats went into this process thinking, this is a catastrophe. We have to take one for the team, but we are going to lose in November by being the party of health care.
I think now they are convinced and certainly Obama is trying to say, you know what? Let them argue with it. We will pick a fight over health care. Let the Republicans argue that it's a bad thing to get rid of preexisting conditions as a way of losing your health insurance.
So, I think one reason they're doing better in the House is that they feel like the politics is turning for them.
HALPERIN: I was skeptical about the White House's argument they have made for weeks publicly and privately that when it passes some of the more popular provisions will be focused on. I'm starting to think they're right...
BROWN: That it will work?
HALPERIN: ... and that things like preexisting conditions will come to the fore, a huge political achievement, and people have started to analyze it, to their benefit.
BROWN: Because there is just enough in there for people to even feel a little bit almost immediately in some cases.
HALPERIN: That's right.
BROWN: We should also note, I think, that Pelosi is not going to force -- she does want to keep the gavel. So, there seem to be enough votes out there that she doesn't have to force a few. She can let a few people slide, right?
HALPERIN: Well, they're going to be very careful. Like, it's sort of a combination of three-dimensional chess and a game of chicken, if I can mix my metaphors.
(LAUGHTER)
HALPERIN: And they need to get enough votes to be at a majority. They wanted to figure out who do they need to let go and not have to vote? So, they're playing with different combinations. And a high priority for them is to try to give people a pass, let them vote no if they say, I will lose my seat.
They would like to keep as many seats as they can. But they're clearly going to have to ask some people. They have already asked some people who say they're voting yes who clearly feel that it will hurt them in their districts, but they're hoping the politics of it does turn around and maybe, if not a positive, at least not an unalloyed negative.
BROWN: Jeff, if it passes, too, the Republican governor of Idaho wants to challenge it in court. And I believe, if I'm right here, he's not alone. Two dozen state legislatures looking at bills to challenge this, challenge the constitutionality of it?
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Is there any merit there?
TOOBIN: There certainly is a chance of challenging the constitutionality of it. It's America. Anybody can file a lawsuit. But the federal government has been regulating medical care for decades Medicare, Medicaid.
BROWN: Right.
TOOBIN: The idea that this is unconstitutional, I think, is really frivolous. It is not -- it may be a good idea. It may be a bad idea. But the courts shall not -- will not get involved.
The way to defeat this is to elect Republicans to overturn it and elect a Republican president to overturn it. The courts are not going to be the vehicle here.
BROWN: All right, Jeff Toobin, Mark Halperin, we will be talking to you next week certainly after all this is over.
After the lobbying and the lawsuits are over, one question will remain: If the bill passes, what does it actually mean for you and for me when we go to our doctors? Now, Mark touched on that a little bit. Sanjay Gupta is here to break it all down for us with some answers.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: With the health care battle heading for a final vote on Sunday, there is one important question everyone is asking, but few have taken the time to answer. If health care passes, what will it actually mean for you, for your family, and your doctor?
And tonight, our doctor, chief medical correspondent Sanjay Gupta, is here to make us make sense of what exactly happens next.
So, Sanjay, this is us assuming that it will pass. Will the average American see big changes in their insurance coverage right away?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the average American who doesn't have an illness, has their insurance probably through their work, through their employer, probably isn't going to see a lot of changes. They may have a couple of safeguards put in place, sooner rather than later, by the end of this year.
For example, if you have a college kid in your household and they are graduating from college, but have not yet gotten a job, up until the age of 26 now, they will be able to be covered under their parents' plans. That's going to be one change.
And also this idea that, if you develop an illness, Campbell, one of the things that people are concerned about is there might be a cap in terms of how much insurance money would be paid over a year or over a lifetime. Those caps are going to disappear as well if this passes. And that should happen this year as well.
But, again, for the average person, probably not huge noticeable changes.
BROWN: But what if you are sick? How would this affect you immediately? That's a little different, right?
GUPTA: It is, very much so. And I have read this entire bill, and I have read it a couple of times now, Campbell. It's challenging. It's so long.
But I think the population of people who are the most affected, to your question, are people who are right now uninsured and have some sort of medical illness. That may seem obvious, but the reason that they're most affected by this potential bill is because this idea of not discriminating against based on preexisting conditions means everything to them.
A lot of these people simply cannot get health care insurance. So, if they have had some sort of illness in the past or a current illness, they cannot be discriminated against based on preexisting conditions.
Now, the way they do this, Campbell, is worth mentioning, just really quickly. They want to set up these high-risk pools all over the country. Now, they are going to spend about $5 billion funding those high-risk pools, so people who previously couldn't get health insurance can join one of those pools and get it.
BROWN: And those changes I guess, as you pointed out, likely to take effect as soon as the law takes effect. But what is it that we're going to have to wait for? What -- what -- I know there are a number of big things that kick in further down the line.
GUPTA: That's right. The number that you keep hearing tossed around probably is around 30 to 32 million additional people covered.
A lot of those people being covered won't happen really for several years, and maybe even four or five years down the line. In 2014, several things happen. First of all, people are going to be required to have health care insurance at this point. That's these mandates, Campbell, that people keep talking about.
You have to buy health care insurance, if you can afford it. If you can't afford it, you can get some tax credits to help subsidize. Those are the two big things that really kick in, in 2014. Again, there won't be discrimination based on preexisting conditions. That continues.
But that there is going to be these national health exchanges set up all over the country. Now, think about them sort of as supermarkets to buy health care insurance. You're unhappy with your health insurance over here, you can try another one.
So, it's really this idea of getting insurance companies to compete for the individual's business as opposed to vice versa. But again, 2014. So a few years down the line before we see a lot of those taking place.
BROWN: And let's talk a little about doctors because we're not hearing much about how this will affect their lives. What's the biggest difference that doctors are going to see?
GUPTA: Well, you know, it's interesting because you can't sort of say across the board. I mean, it depends what kind of doctor you are. It depends what kind of insurance you take. And it depends in part where you live. So what I mean by that is that if you're a doctor who is focusing on prevention, or primary care, you may see some increase in reimbursements. There's been a push as part of this health care reform bill to try and incentivize prevention and primary care more so.
If you're a specialist, you're going to see some disincentives, even some cuts potentially in terms of what Medicare pays. So if you're a specialty surgeon who doesn't take Medicare insurance, you may not see much in the way of your practice. But if you're a primary care doctor who primarily takes Medicare, you could see some big changes.
BROWN: So those changes showing up also in the doctors' paychecks?
GUPTA: Yes, I think so. You know, I mean, they talk about Medicare as a source potentially for revenue, cutting out the fraud in Medicare, cutting out the inefficiencies in Medicare. And it's left a lot of doctors sort of scratching their heads, Campbell, which is why you've seen the AMA sort of go back and forth on this. What's that hat going to mean exactly? Is it going to mean cut in reimbursement rates to doctors? The answer is probably yes. But again it depends what kind of doctor you are. I think specialists are going to be harder hit than primary care and preventive care doctors. BROWN: So are you -- are you going to see I guess an increase in the people who want to be primary care doctors now? They're going to be in much greater demand it sounds like, right?
GUPTA: I think so, right, Campbell? I mean, I think based on everything we've heard, you sort of theorize that that would happen, although you never know for sure. You know, in 2008, out of about 1,200 doctors, 1,200 medical students who finish medical school every year and go on to be doctors, only about two percent went into primary care. Think about that. The number should be closer to 30 percent, some say even 40 percent. Two percent. So it's really, really low. And we're about 16,000 primary care doctors short right now. It's expected that will go to 40, 50,000 over the next several years. So it's a huge shortage, a huge problem. But it's hard to know whether these incentives that we were just talking about will make more med students choose primary care. We'll just have to wait and see on that.
BROWN: And whether it will incentivize them because certainly they're needed. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta joining us tonight. Good see you, Sanjay. Thanks so much.
GUPTA: Great conversation. Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: Coming up, border bravery. While drug violence keeps many tourists away, some students are heading to Mexico on their spring break. Not to party, but to work.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The drug violence down in Mexico is making nervous tourists think twice about spring break. Six people have been killed along the border in just the past two days. But even that is not enough to stop one group of brave and determined missionaries. Ted Rowlands reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Take a look at what you see. You see shops are open. There's plenty of merchandize but there's nobody here buying it. There are literally no tourists on this avenue. And normally it would be full of people, especially this week because it's the beginning of spring break. But because of all of the drug violence in Mexico, and specifically here in Tijuana, people are petrified, and they're staying away.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Business, as you can see by yourself, it went down about 95 percent.
ROWLANDS (voice-over): Images like the school murder scene of three students killed earlier this year have been shown around the world as part of the ongoing story of Mexico's drug cartel violence, which in Tijuana, over the past two years includes decapitations, police officers slayings and 1,300 murders.
(on camera): There are problems in Tijuana. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are problems. We cannot deny that. This is a big city. We're over perhaps two million people. But the problem is with certain people, certain areas --
ROWLANDS (voice-over): Driving south along scenic Highway 1 which connects the beach cities along Mexico's Pacific Coast, we don't see any U.S. license plates. About an hour and a half later, we arrive in Ensenada.
More than 200 students from Westmont College in Santa Barbara, California, are spending their spring break here building homes for the poor. Westmont students have been coming to Ensenada for 33 years. Some schools have canceled spring break trips to Ensenada. Westmont decided it was safe enough to send their students.
HANNA WALKER, WESTMONT COLLEGE STUDENT: I was a tiny bit nervous crossing the border. I have been here before but not for service projects. I'm a little bit (INAUDIBLE) but now that I've been here for a few days, I'm perfectly comfortable.
ROWLANDS: The school is taking precautions, no stops in Tijuana this year and students stick together.
WALKER: Staying in a group, making sure I'm with someone all the time, you know, buddy system. When we were downtown last night for dinner, we just paired up and walked around in twos and locked the car. I mean, you know, just being smart about it.
ROWLANDS: While Ensenada and other vacation cities in Mexico are still considered safe, the fear of border drug violence is enough to keep people away. Even some cruise passengers are hesitant to go ashore in Ensenada.
ROBERT BARR, TOURIST: I didn't see why not. My children ironically watching the news are a little bit concerned.
ROWLANDS (on camera): What do you guys think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know.
ROWLANDS: Not too scary, is it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A little, but mostly not. No.
ROWLANDS (voice-over): At Papas and Beer, which in years past would be filled with college students during spring break, business is down 40 percent.
CESAR MARQUEZ, MANAGER, PAPAS AND BEER: I guess they're afraid of traveling by Tijuana. I guess that's what's hurting Ensenada the most.
ROWLANDS (on camera): Of course, things are much worse in places where there is a lot of violence, like here in Tijuana where governments around the world are warning their citizens to be very careful if they come. Of course, the net effect of that warning is that people are literally just staying away.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Tijuana, Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Call it the clash of the titans. Viacom accuses YouTube of building its site on stolen content. What the increasingly nasty court battle actually means for your online viewing pleasure, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The party may be over for YouTube, but nasty legal battle could shut down the Web site for good. We're going to tell you why.
But first, more must-see news happening right now. Mike Galanos here with the "Download."
Hi, Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Hey, Campbell. First off, after being turned down for parole 16 times, the only person to confess to killing civil rights leader Malcolm X is about to be released. 69- year-old Thomas Hagan was sentenced to 20 years to life for shooting Malcolm X in Harlem back in 1965. Now he's been locked up two days a week for the last 22 years. The other days he's been allowed to live with his family and work as part of a work release program.
The estate of Anna Nicole Smith will not get the hundreds of millions of dollars she claims she was promised by her late oil tycoon husband. A federal appeals court ruled today that Smith should not get any of J. Howard Marshall's $1.6 billion estate. Marshall died in 1995 at the age of 90 just over a year after those two were married.
The lesbian student fighting for Mississippi high school's prom policy was given a $30,000 scholarship today on the "Ellen DeGeneres Show." The money came from an Internet company. Now, Ellen says she is proud of Constance McMillan for challenging school years that bar same-sex couples from the prom. The school canceled the event after the teen's request. Now a federal court hearing on this matter is scheduled for Monday.
It sounds like pop star Lady Gaga may be living her own bad romance. The Grammy winner is being sued for $30.5 million by her ex- boyfriend. He is producer Rob Fusari and he claims he helped launch her career but was frozen out after they broke up. Mr. Fusari claims they co-wrote songs and that he even came up with the name Lady Gaga.
Finally this, actress Demi Moore helped Florida authorities prevent a man from killing himself by responding to him on Twitter. Moore was among hundreds of people in the social networking site who intervened. The young guy was on there. He posted that he was going to kill himself and sent a live feed of him hanging himself. Florida police were able to reach the man before anything happened. I know actress Nia Vardalos became involved as well. She called the suicide outline to get some advise. So a lot of people jumped in here to try to help this young man.
BROWN: Wow, that's awful.
GALANOS: Yes.
BROWN: I mean, it's good they all jumped in. That's a crazy story.
Mike Galanos for us tonight. Mike, thanks a lot. Have a great weekend.
GALANOS: You too, Campbell. Thanks.
BROWN: Still ahead, an ugly feud between media giants Viacom and YouTube erupts in accusations of dirty dealings and stolen content. Why some say that YouTube could be going the way of Napster. Remember Napster? When we come back.
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BROWN: Remember all that free music you used to get on Napster? If one company has its way, YouTube will suffer a similar fate.
The media giant Viacom claims the Google-owned company intentionally stole content it owned, videos from Comedy Central, MTV and others to create a site, quote, "built on infringement." YouTube, meantime, claims Viacom secretly uploaded its own videos for promotional purposes hoping they would go viral. It's a complicated case, and here to break it down for us is CNN legal correspondent Jeffrey Toobin back with us once again, and from Tampa, tech-expert Katie Linendoll joining us as well.
So, Jeff, let me start with you here. Viacom says it has e-mails that prove YouTube knew it had content on the site, and there are a lot of e-mails on this front. I'm going to use a CNN clip as an example and read you one of those e-mails.
This is from the founder of YouTube. And it says, quote, "I really don't see what will happen. What? Someone from CNN sees it? He happens to be someone with power? He happens to want to take it down right away? He gets in touch with CNN legal. Two weeks later, we get a cease and desist letter, we take the video down." What the big deal? No, I added the "what's the big deal." How damning are those kind of e-mails in this case?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: The e-mails are pretty shocking, I have to say. And this really is sort of a fundamental issue in this case. Is YouTube sort of a nice site where individuals can upload their cat playing the piano? The law isn't really involved. Or is it essentially like the mafia, a criminal enterprise that is dedicated basically to breaking the law most of the time? And the initial e-mails suggest that they didn't really care about copyright. What they really cared about was getting a lot of users and they would worry about the legal problems later. Well, the legal problems have now come home to roost. BROWN: So, Katie, I guess the question is, you know, when it comes to what's going on the Internet, all exposure is good exposure, right? I mean, wouldn't Viacom maybe want their videos to be seen by millions of people on YouTube?
KATIE LINENDOLL, TECH EXPERT: Of course.
BROWN: Explain exactly why they're suing?
LINENDOLL: Right. Well, all exposure is definitely good exposure. But the problem here is 50,000 hits of "The Colbert Report" is 50 on YouTube. It's 50,000 that they're losing on their very own network site. So, of course, that in turn ends up in a loss in advertising dollars. So, of course, they're getting hit with that. But the other thing here is what you've discussed, they also think about, you know, they're losing the advertising dollars, but they also YouTube is claiming that Viacom has actually had upwards of 18 marketing agencies out there loading up viral clips on YouTube in the past few years, which is unbelievable, because they've been secretly knowing that they need that viral content out there, but also builds their case against Google against YouTube.
BROWN: So what does that do to their case?
TOOBIN: I don't think it really does that much to it. I mean, YouTube is here. Any media company has to deal with the fact that it is here. The question, though, is what they do legal?
And the e-mail suggests that they didn't really care whether it was legal or not. They just wanted to get market share and worry about the legal problems later. And, you know these -- what people want, these companies want is they want to get paid. So the question is, is YouTube going to continue to be able to use all these clips without paying for it. And if they have to start paying for it, the model falls apart.
BROWN: Right.
TOOBIN: And, you know, Google, which owns YouTube will have wildly overpaid for it.
BROWN: Katie, you are one of the many people out there who I know uses YouTube to post videos of yourself. And you say you've actually experienced firsthand how YouTube does police itself, right? It does remove some of those videos.
LINENDOLL: Absolutely. To say they turn a blind eye is definitely false. I mean, I upload media all the time where it immediately it is stamped for don't have a music clearance, don't have the network clearance, clear by Comcast. There's all these issues. So they certainly are trying to do something. But to Jeffrey's point, the precedent is not set here. This is going to be a groundbreaking case because nothing like this has ever gone on, let alone between two media powerhouses. So it will really be interesting to see where the face of all media content goes with this particular case.
TOOBIN: I agree that it's an open question. I don't know how this case will turn out because it is totally unprecedented.
BROWN: So to her point, though, about them policing itself, does that bolster?
TOOBIN: Well, yes, they have started doing that in response to all the complaints that they've gotten.
BROWN: Right.
TOOBIN: But the real question is whose responsibility is it? If YouTube basically says to Comedy Central, well, you know, if you have a complaint, let us know. What Comedy Central and Viacom are saying no, you're responsible for making sure that it doesn't get on there in the first place. And that's very hard to do.
BROWN: This is a fascinating case.
TOOBIN: Yes.
BROWN: We're going to definitely keep track of it. Jeffrey Toobin, appreciate it. And Katie Linendoll, as always, good to have you on as well.
LINENDOLL: Thanks.
BROWN: Thanks guys.
TOOBIN: Have a good weekend.
BROWN: You too.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting in just a few minutes. But first, it's Friday, the start of the weekend and the Sabbath. How many people can just give it a rest? We're talking a real rest here, no BlackBerry, Bluetooth, Facebook, Twitter. A data unplug from everything, when we come back.
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BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. But first, this Friday night brings a different kind of Sabbath. There is a movement to just give it a rest, and it being your Blackberry, Facebook, Twitter. Can you live without e-mails for a day? The National Day of Unplugging urges the overstressed and overworked to log off and tune out technology for 24 hours.
And joining me right now is Dan Rollman who launched the Sabbath Manifesto, and Gretchen Rubin who's the author of "The Happiness Project."
Welcome to both of you.
DAN ROLLMAN, CREATOR, "SABBATH MANIFESTO": Thank you.
GRETCHEN RUBIN, AUTHOR, "THE HAPPINESS PROJECT": Thank you. BROWN: So, Dan, let me start with you. You are literally telling people to unplug for 24 hours. That has made most of my staff I think break out into a cold sweat, just the thought of it. But there is like this line, I guess, where, you know, we -- between us mastering technology and technology mastering us. And like our ability to find that balance is hard.
ROLLMAN: Yes, it definitely feels like an addiction of sorts, like you become cognizant of yet how permanently you're, you know, always connected in one form or another. So --
BROWN: So that's the idea behind this, basically?
ROLLMAN: Yes, just to sort of, you know, take a step back and you know -- I mean, it really came out of recognition that as I was spending more and more time with technology, it was just getting harder and harder to, you know, connect to people. And you know, I was aware of my attention span becoming shorter and so on. So, yes, it evolved out of that, I guess.
BROWN: And, Gretchen, 66 percent of Americans own a cell phone. It's a huge convenience.
RUBIN: Yes.
BROWN: And it's not always a negative either.
RUBIN: Right.
BROWN: I mean, we talk about us needing to connect to each other more. And people do use their cell phones to, you know, send photos or text messages or whatever of their children.
RUBIN: Right.
BROWN: And you know, it does keep us connected in a way too. I mean it's not all bad, right?
RUBIN: No, I mean, that's the thing. Technology, it's a good servant, but a bad master. And it can give you wonderful access to more people. You can keep strong ties with other people and get all this great information and sometimes it can free you from your desk. But the problem comes when you feel like you just have a cubicle in your pocket all day long and you can never escape. So you either feel distracted, like you can't have a thought to yourself because you're constantly being interrupted, or you feel hunted like you're always, you know, on a leash. You can never escape. You can never sort of feel free and feel relaxed.
BROWN: So when does it become a bad thing? I mean, when do you say that somebody has really crossed the line?
RUBIN: I think people know it. The more I talk to people about "Happiness" it feels like people are searching for that boundary. They want that balance. They want the benefits but then they also want to be able to find a way to break free whether by you taking a day off or walking out of a couple of hours or using computer programs that, you know, won't let them use the Internet for a couple of hours.
BROWN: Right.
RUBIN: There's different strategies people are trying.
BROWN: And, Dan, I know you say one of the things you want is really to get people sort of interacting person to person again in a way that we haven't for a while.
ROLLMAN: Yes. You know, this is by no means an anti-technology movement. This isn't a movement -- you know, like you say there's obviously a million great things that have come out of technology and the Internet and so forth. So, yes, we're the group that I worked on to develop this with, we're going to do this evening actually a cell phone-free dinner. So we're all going to unplug our cell phones and we're going to, 40 or 50 people just be together and not be compulsively checking our Twitter feeds and e-mails and text messages and so forth.
BROWN: That may be a way to start out, frankly.
RUBIN: Right.
BROWN: Because there are a lot of people who couldn't do this cold turkey kind of thing.
RUBIN: No. And you see it also with people like they think they're having quality time with their child, but they're checking their e-mail all the time. And since people are sort of, they're going through the motions but they're not really there. They're not really kind of in the moment. And so by turning off your device, you sort of keep yourself experiencing the moment.
BROWN: How will you judge this to have been a success?
ROLLMAN: You know, it's all personal. So by no means are we trying to preach or say, you know, that this is the right way and wrong way to live your life or engage with technology. So I just speak from a personal level if I'm able to for the next 24 hours, you know, be off of my computer and be off of my cell phone. And you know, I've gone old school and made plans to meet people tomorrow at a given time and a given location. So, you know, I think it will just be certainly a challenge, but a really rewarding experience to just be away from that. Not to wake up and check my, you know, check my cell phone within 60 seconds of being away. Not to, you know, watch TV while I'm checking my e-mail and so forth.
BROWN: Well, good luck with that tomorrow.
ROLLMAN: Thank you. It's going to be a challenge.
BROWN: Dan Rollman, thank you very much, and Gretchen Rubin. Good to have you guys here. Thanks.
And that's it for us. Thanks for joining us. Have a great weekend, everybody. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
