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Campbell Brown
Health Care Bill Signed Into Law; Interview With New Hampshire Senator Judd Gregg
Aired March 23, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, everybody.
Barack Obama walking into the history books again today, signing the most sweeping social reform in generations. That is the top story in the country tonight, and it is where we start the "Mash-Up." As always, we're watching it all so you don't have to.
One year, two months and two days after team Obama took over the White House, their chief domestic priority is now the law of the land.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today, after almost a century of trying, today, after over a year of debate, today, after all the votes have been tallied, health insurance reform becomes law in the United States of America.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JOHN KING, HOST, "JOHN KING USA": Using 22 pens, President Obama signed into law sweeping legislation that affects everyone, everyone who lives in this great country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But just seven minutes later, the ink barely dry, Republicans launched a counterattack, as more than a dozen states filed federal lawsuits, arguing that the government can't force people to buy health insurance.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president begins today the job some critics say he failed to do up until now, sell the bill to the American people.
NARRATOR: But the insurance companies didn't win.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today, pro-health care reform groups launched a million-dollar ad campaign to support Democrats who voted for the bill.
DIANE SAWYER, HOST, "WORLD NEWS": And you heard the president pay tribute to Senator Ted Kennedy, who devoted his career to health care reform. But there was another quiet tribute at the senator's grave, a note left by his son, Congressman Patrick Kennedy. It said, simply, "Dad, the unfinished business is done."
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: And, as you saw, Republicans, though, hardly waving the white flag on health care. What is next for them? We're going to get some answers from Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire coming up in just a few minutes.
And now for probably I guess our favorite moment of the day. Because nothing punctuates history better than a good old-fashioned Bidenism, here was the vice president at the White House, dutifully on message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSEPH BIDEN, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our children and our grandchildren -- they're going to grow up knowing that a man named Barack Obama put the final girder in the framework for a social network in this country to provide the single- most important element of what people need, and that is access to good health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And, of course, here is that statement translated into Bidenese.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: Ladies and gentlemen, the president of the United States of America, Barack Obama.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BIDEN: This is a big (EXPLETIVE DELETED) deal.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: Thank you.
Thank you, everybody. Thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And did you get that? Open mike, national television, big F-ing deal, vintage Biden here. White House Secretary Robert Gibbs later tweeted, "Yes, Mr. Vice President, you're right."
In other news, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is at the White House tonight, wrapping up a visit with President Obama, a key meeting at a time of heightened tensions between the two allies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A statement from the White House just this morning talking about working dinner that Vice President Biden had last night with Mr. Netanyahu, and calling it productive and a candid discussion. And you know what candid means in the diplomatic world. It's usually pretty straight ahead and not necessarily very diplomatic.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu ignored reporters as he arrived at the White House late today for a meeting with President Obama, a moment of truth for any chance of negotiations to create an Israeli and a Palestinian state living side by side.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": You may recall, Israel caused a stir recently by announcing plans for new settlements in largely Arab East Jerusalem. And they did so while Vice President Biden was visiting Israel, which was widely considered an insult.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The president and prime minister did not hold a joint event for reporters today, as they have done in the past.
A power team of Obama administration officials is in Mexico tonight. Hillary Clinton, Bob Gates, Janet Napolitano, they are all there, joined by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the director of national intelligence -- the mission, to prevent a bad situation from getting even worse.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The one-day visit is focused on breaking the power of the drug cartels in the region, and will include meetings with Mexican officials, including President Felipe Calderon.
WILLIAMS: Clinton promised more help for Mexico in what has been so far a losing battle against those drug traffickers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Americans Lesley Enriquez and Arthur Redelfs, killed in a Juarez drive-by shooting 11 days ago, are two of 600 drug gang killings so far this year, almost 2,600 last year. Gangsters are killing to control this lucrative drug smuggling route to the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: These meetings have been planned for months, but the recent killings earlier this month of the U.S. Consulate worker in Mexico and her husband really underscore the urgency of the situation and a real need for solutions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: No official tally, but it's estimated that 16,000 people have died in the Mexican drug wars.
Here is a story that we couldn't make up if we tried. A jilted wife sues her ex-husband's mistress for breaking up their marriage, and a judge awards her $9 million. That's what happened in North Carolina this week.
Cynthia Shackelford is the angry wife, and she spoke to CBS and ABC in their morning shows.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CYNTHIA SHACKELFORD, PLAINTIFF: We had a great marriage. He was very affectionate. We have two wonderful children. I mean, this is all a shock to me. My husband introduced me to her as his wife. She knew that we were married. I have e-mails. I knew that he was taking her home from work from the office.
She is the one that came in between us as far as her luring ways. It's not about the money, but I wouldn't believe anything she had to say anyway. But I'm just trying to send a message to other people that are like Anne Lundquist.
If someone is divorced, that's one thing. But as long as a couple is still living together as man and wife, still the same home, the same bedroom, the same bed, lay off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The other woman is appealing the court's decision.
And that brings us to the "Punchline" tonight, courtesy of Jimmy Kimmel. He noticed something funny about Tiger Woods' post-scandal TV interview. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": Tiger Woods, he is a Buddhist. He says he lost his way when he drifted from Buddhism, which is the religion he grew up with. And now he is -- well, I guess, if his jewelry is in indication, it would appear that he has reconnected with Buddhism.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I noticed you're wearing a bracelet.
TIGER WOODS, PROFESSIONAL GOLFER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we see it?
WOODS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What does it mean?
WOODS: Well, it's Buddhist. It's for protection and strength. And I certainly need that.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Will you be wearing it during the Masters?
WOODS: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the rest of your...
(CROSSTALK)
WOODS: Absolutely.
(LAUGHTER)
KIMMEL: It was given to him by the Dalai Lama.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jimmy Kimmel, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
Tonight, health care reform is the law, but don't tell that to Republicans. I will talk with Judd Gregg, one of the senators leading the new battle, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, Republicans aren't letting a little thing like President Obama signing health care reform into law get in the way of the battle to stop it. The GOP is rolling out a multipronged strategy just hours after the president's mini-victory lap.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: And we have now just enshrined, as soon as I sign this bill, the core principle that everybody should have some basic security when it comes to their health care.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: And it is an extraordinary achievement that's happened because of all of you and all the advocates all across the country. So thank you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Republicans are looking for any and all ways to block the overhaul, including possibly trying to repeal it. And a big part of that new fight started today in the Senate.
And one of the Republicans leading the charge is New Hampshire Senator Judd Gregg, and he is joining me right now.
Senator, clearly, this is a huge moment for the president. How do you think this will go down in history?
SEN. JUDD GREGG (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, unfortunately, I think it's going to go down in history as the largest expansion in our government in our history, growing our government by $2.6 trillion, at a time when we can't afford the government we have.
So, inevitably, it's going to pass on to our kids a massive amount of expenditures and government and debt that will reduce their quality of life. I mean, basically, you're taking the size of the government from 20 percent of GDP, which has been its historic size since World War II, up to 25, 26 percent of GDP. And, really, the only way to pay for that type of expansion is either through inflation, which is obviously the cruelest tax of all, or through massive tax increases, which inevitably reduce productivity and opportunity and jobs, or, in this case, by cutting Medicare and taking the money and using it to fund these brand-new entitlement programs which have nothing to do with senior citizens.
BROWN: But, to your point, you saw the Congressional Budget Office numbers that everybody was waiting on before this vote took place that do show deficit reduction over time. Do you not believe in those numbers?
GREGG: Of course not. If you believe those numbers, I will sell you a bridge in Brooklyn and probably two in Oakland.
BROWN: But don't Republicans use the CBO numbers when it is to their benefit? It seems very hypocritical to be criticizing the credibility of the CBO now, when it doesn't work.
(CROSSTALK)
GREGG: I'm not criticizing the CBO, Campbell. I'm criticizing the fact patterns on which they were asked to make their decisions.
They were asked basically to score a bill that had 10 years of taxes, 10 years of spending cuts, mostly in the Medicare area, against six years of actual expenditure and programs. So, when you match 10 years of spending and 10 years of taxes against six years of expenditure, you end up with a positive figure.
If you use a fully -- a fully phased-in program here, where you have everything functioning, this is a $2.6 trillion bill, with a trillion dollars of health care -- of reductions in Medicare spending, all of which, all those Medicare reductions are taken, and instead of being used to make Medicare stronger and more solvent, which is something we absolutely need to do, they're taken to use to expand these new entitlement programs and create these new entitlement programs for uninsured individuals.
BROWN: But let's talk what happens now, because the law is a done deal. The Senate, though, still does have to pass some fixes. And you and your fellow Republicans are doing everything in your power to prevent that from happening, offering amendments, digging for sort of obscure parliamentary procedures.
And, I guess, isn't this more of the process and procedure that your party was bashing Democrats for just last week?
GREGG: Campbell, I find it very humorous that you would say offering amendments is unusual.
Considering the context of the way this bill was passed, I can see why you would say that. Remember, this bill arrived in the Senate on a Saturday afternoon. We were given three days to look at it. No amendments were allowed by the majority party, and then we were forced to vote for it on Christmas Eve. And then it went to the House floor. No amendments were allowed. This is going to be the first vehicle where we can actually raise amendments as Republicans to try to improve this bill. That's what we're going to try to do.
Our view is, you repeal and replace this bill. You replace it with better law and better approaches towards health care. We have them. I have a proposal. A number of other members have proposals. Some of them are even bipartisan.
So, we think we can improve this bill. We're going to try to do it through the amendment process. Is there going to be any support for our amendments? No. It's pretty clear that they have sort of locked arms here on the other side of the aisle and they're not going to allow any amendments, even the amendment which Senator McCain on the floor is offering tonight, which is essentially an amendment to knock out all the sweetheart deals, like the Louisiana purchase and the $100 million hospital deal for one state, and the other deals for the other states.
He has seven specific deals that were put in this deal that have nothing to do with reform. They dealt just with giving members of Congress, especially the Senate, special deals. He is proposing to knock those out. I can't imagine why people would vote against that, other than the fact that they're just insistent that they're going to do it their way or no other way.
BROWN: But why -- and I mean this sincerely. If none of this is going to change the law, then why bother? Why not move on to other things where you do know that you can effect change? Why just let the debate drag on?
GREGG: Well, I guess, Campbell, if we accepted that process, Republicans shouldn't even show up in Washington.
I mean, this is the biggest piece of legislation I am ever going to see in my career. It's probably the biggest piece of social engineering. It's certainly the largest expansion of government in the last 50 years. You think we should walk away and not offer amendments which we think would improve it and make it a better bill?
I mean, our job, our responsibility, our responsibility to our constituents is to try to make this a better bill. And that's what we're going try do. Now, the fact that the other side of the aisle has refused to let us in the room when they negotiated this -- remember, this was -- this bill was built in a hidden room behind a hidden room behind a hidden door.
No Republicans were allowed to participate. There was no C-SPAN there, as the president said there would be. There was no committee markup of the bill that actually went to the floor of the Senate. Then it went to the House, where the deals were cut in the speaker's office.
BROWN: So, let me ask you, then, how do you plan to run against this in November? I mean, there are concrete things you may disagree with, but concrete things in this bill that Democrats are going to be talking about, seniors getting prescription drug rebates, young adults being covered under their parents' insurance, kids with preexisting conditions finally having coverage.
(CROSSTALK)
GREGG: Yes. All of that would have been covered. In fact, if they had taken my proposals, all of that would have been covered, but it would have been affordable.
What we're going to point out is that -- is the fundamental weakness of this bill, which is basically three areas. Number one, it explodes the size of the government, at a time when we can't even afford the government we have.
Number two, it uses Medicare as the piggy bank to fund these new entitlements, when Medicare savings should be used to make Medicare more solvent. And, number three, it's going to basically put the government very much in the business of managing everybody's health care in this country in a way that is very intrusive.
And those are not good things. All -- we could have accomplished significant health care reform. All these issues of insurance reform, everybody was in agreement on those. You didn't need this massive bill to accomplish those issues. So, we're going to point out the failures of the bill.
And I think the American people have shown that they understand it. The opposition to this bill is pretty strong out there, and I think it's because people understand that this is something our kids can't afford. It's just too darn big.
BROWN: Opposition may be strong, but it is the minority, which is why the president was able to pull this off.
Senator, I do appreciate your time. Thank you for joining us.
GREGG: Thank you, Campbell. OK.
BROWN: Is the GOP making a smart move keeping the health care fight alive? Our political panel is going to be here after the break to break it down.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: After today's signing ceremony, President Obama left no doubt he considers the health care fight done, finished, in the can. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: After a year of debate, after a historic vote, health care reform is no longer an unmet promise. It is the law of the land. It is the law of the land. (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: But as you just heard from Senator Gregg, Republicans have no plans to give up the fight.
And with me now is senior political analyst Gloria Borger, also David Gergen here with me in New York, and David Frum, a speechwriter for former President George Bush, joining us tonight as well.
David Gergen, Republicans vowing to repeal the health care law. Clearly, that's the message for the midterms. I just want to play a little bit of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell from earlier today. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), MINORITY LEADER: I can tell you, with regard to the campaign that will continue with the American people, I think the slogan will be repeal and replace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Is that a smart theme for Republicans heading into the midterms, repeal and replace?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: As long as it has "and replace" at the end of it, then it makes sense.
There are three roads they're trying to go down. One is in the Senate right now. That's not going to work. I think it's very, very unlikely they will get many changes. The second is in the courts -- 13 attorneys general filed a suit today seeking to have the courts declare this unconstitutional. Very unlikely to work.
BROWN: Right.
GERGEN: Interesting, Campbell, that four of them are people who are running for governor in their states.
BROWN: Right.
GERGEN: And then the third is to take it to the people this November and see if they can't get a mandate for change.
And the repeal and replace I think has a chance to work, if it's not simply repeal, because you can't ask people who suddenly get benefits, we're going to kick you off. That's not going to work.
What you have to do is come up with four or five ideas and say, here is what we're going to do if you elect us. That's what Newt Gingrich did in 1994 and it worked. He got a Contract With America. He got a mandate.
BROWN: David Frum, I know you've written about this, and you think it's the wrong path for Republicans right now, right?
DAVID FRUM, FORMER SPEECHWRITER FOR FORMER PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: Well, the slogan begs the question, replace with what?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
FRUM: At this point, we now have a law. So, whereas before the Republicans could say, look, we have some good, practical ideas -- and Republicans do, tort reform and selling across state lines and those things you have heard so much -- but now we have a system. And if you're going to get rid of the whole thing -- and the system does contain things that people will like -- how -- what specifically will you do to ensure that the things that people like remain and the things that people don't like are got rid of?
That will require a much more systematic answer than the party's developed. And, so, the slogan is going to sound hollow. And that is going to be disturbing to people, especially as the front-loaded goodies of this plan kick in, with the bad news waiting beyond the electoral horizon.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Go ahead, Gloria.
BORGER: Campbell, the danger for the Republicans here is that -- particularly in the Senate right now -- is that this all begins to look like a little game, OK?
You have John McCain, something on the floor, who wants to get rid of the sweetheart deals. That's fine. But I was talking to a senior Democratic leadership aide just before I came on, and there could be a proposal, for example, in the Senate to try and get Democrats to vote for it that would ban Viagra for sex offenders.
OK. What are they trying to do there? They're trying to force a vote. They're trying to get the Democrats to vote for it and say, OK, it's not a perfect match with the House bill, and you got to go back to square one. So, that...
BROWN: Right.
BORGER: That could be self-defeating.
BROWN: But do these little -- do these maneuvers have any chance of actually succeeding in -- I mean, other than sort of causing a headache and a P.R. nightmare for everybody?
BORGER: Right.
And, again, the Democrats that I talked to late today were saying that they're feeling a little bit more comfortable that they're going to be able to beat everything back, and that they're going to be able to kind of stop these amendments from passing.
They may have to give some members a bye who are in tough races, but they think they're going to be able to get it done.
BROWN: What do you think of that?
GERGEN: Let me just say this.
David Frum is the exception to what I'm going to say, because he's been very, very consistent.
And, by the way, David, you have really stirred a hornet's nest out there.
BORGER: Right.
(LAUGHTER)
GERGEN: But you're used to that.
But the -- but, nonetheless, look, I think it's been a strange thing that has happened in the media in the last 24 hours. And that is, up until about 24 hours ago, the media was all saying, this bill is very unpopular. Democrats are really putting their heads in the noose. They're really taking a big risk, big gambles.
And, suddenly, today, it's like, oh, the Republicans don't have much of a shot here. Why are they going to be able to fight this? It's the law of the land and so forth.
(CROSSTALK)
GERGEN: This bill remains very unpopular in very significant segments of the country, not in big urban centers.
BROWN: Right.
GERGEN: But in big swathes of the country, people are angry, they're upset, they're anxious, they're worried about the deficits.
And for the Republicans to walk away from that fight and sort of say, well, now it's the law of the land, we shouldn't fight it, I just think is...
BROWN: People would respond pretty...
GERGEN: Well, I think people would feel, you've given up on...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Abdicated.
GERGEN: Yes.
BORGER: But you have to make it a fight over substance.
GERGEN: I agree with that.
(CROSSTALK) BORGER: You don't want to make it a fight over junk, right?
GERGEN: I agree with that, but...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Let me give David Frum the last word here.
(CROSSTALK)
FRUM: I totally agree with what David Gergen just said.
I think the guideline I would recommend to Republicans is to talk about revise. Identify very specific problems and say, we will fix this, we will fix that, and we will fix this third thing. But don't have an open-ended promise to replace, unless you have an answer to replace with what.
GERGEN: I agree with that. I agree with that.
BROWN: All right.
David Gergen, David Frum, and Gloria Borger, many thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
BORGER: Sure.
BROWN: And stay with us.
Just ahead: Mexico's war on drugs hitting critical mass, spilling American blood, and costing U.S. taxpayers billions of dollars. Our Gary Tuchman is on the front lines of the war next door in the deadliest city in the world. That's coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Hillary Clinton is leading an extraordinary delegation of U.S. officials in Mexico to discuss that country's out-of-control drug wars -- 65 percent of all the cocaine used in the United States does come through Mexico. And where there are drugs, there is violence.
Gary Tuchman spent the weekend in the border town of Juarez. Some call it the murder capital of the world. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This man has just watched gunmen ambush his brother and murder him in one of the most frightening cities in the world, Juarez, Mexico, a place where 16 young people can get killed at a party by narco-traffickers who apparently made a mistake, targeting the wrong house, and few are stunned by it.
Drug cartels are at war in this city of 1.5 million, law-abiding citizens be damned. This past weekend we went to the funeral of an American woman who worked at the U.S. consulate in Juarez. She was shot and killed, along with her American husband and her unborn child. It happened right in front of the Juarez mayor's office, a stone's throw away from El Paso, Texas.
Over the next few hours, we saw firsthand what has led to Juarez having the highest murder rate in the world.
(on camera): There is no such thing as a quiet weekend day here in Ciudad Juarez. About one hour ago, police got a call that in this murky river there was a body. When they got to the scene, they indeed found the body with a bullet hole right in the forehead. Behind me members of the military with guns, police, these guys will probably be at another murder later today.
(voice-over): We didn't realize how quickly we'd see them again.
(on camera): Only 10 minutes after we left that river, a five- minute drive away, this was the scene. Two men in that gold pickup. Six gunmen came up to them. The driver ran out, was shot. And now he's under that tarp.
(voice-over): Why was he targeted? We may never know. This is the brother of the victim, who was also in the pickup. The gunmen left him unharmed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We were just going to the tire shop to pick up a tire, and nothing more.
TUCHMAN: Thirty minutes later, another execution-style killing. A worker in an electrical store shot multiple times at close range. Neighbors are afraid to talk about what they know, and fear the murderers will come after them. I asked this man if he heard anything.
(on camera): Nada? Nada, todo.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And Gary Tuchman is joining me right now. And, Gary, you know, the city of Juarez has thousands of police on the streets now. Why is it so hard to get their arms around this?
TUCHMAN: Thousands of police and thousands of army troops, but that's the irony. The more honest troops, the more honest police, the more the cartel members get mad. They're very strong and very powerful. A few years ago there were a lot of crooked cops, crooked army troops a lot more than today. They had an easier time with the cartels. They didn't have to use the violence.
BROWN: A lot of high-level officials, as we pointed out earlier, were there today. I know you did spend some time with the mayor of Juarez. What does he think would help? I mean, what is it going to take?
TUCHMAN: Tom Petty has a great song, "Don't Back Down." And that's what his philosophy is that we will not back down. Mayor Ferriz, Jose Ferriz has been in office three years. His term ends in October. Two weeks ago, he received a note that said if you don't quit the mayor's job, because he is trying to get rid of corrupt police, you'll be dead in two weeks. Tomorrow is the exact two-week point.
BROWN: He must have incredible security.
TUCHMAN: He has incredible security. We spent the day with him.
BROWN: Yes.
TUCHMAN: That will be one story we also are doing this week. We spent the day with him. He's scared. There's no question about it, but he's not going to back down.
BROWN: We will look forward to that story. This is a fascinating piece of work. Gary Tuchman for us tonight. Gary, thanks very much. Appreciate it.
TUCHMAN: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: And you can see much more of Gary Tuchman's report on Mexico's vicious drug wars later tonight on Anderson Cooper "AC 360," 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time.
And coming up, the mystery in a small town as birth defects there multiply. Why local families fear that a toxic waste dump could be the cause, even as officials vote to expand it. We're going to tell you that story when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: California is the most environmentally friendly state in the U.S. But one small farming town may be wondering where their friends are. Kettleman City, population 1,500, has unsafe drinking water, poor air quality and is polluted with pesticides. It is also home to one of the largest hazardous waste dumps in the country. And some residents believe the dump may play a role in serious health problems. Special investigation unit's Kyra Phillips takes us on a journey to Kettleman City for answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How do we know if a birth defect is more than one mother's misery?
MARIA SALCEDO, KETTLEMAN CITY RESIDENT (through translator): It's such a small town and such a large problem. We want to give our children life, not death.
PHILLIPS: How do we know if Maria Salcedo's misery is part of a pattern? Maria is not alone in the farming community of Kettleman City, California. Her misery has company.
(on camera): When you're driving through the San Joaquin Valley here in California, it's beautiful. It's green, it's lush, and there's rolling hills. But just a few feet off this busy highway, something else that grabs your attention -- the largest toxic waste dump west of the Mississippi.
(voice-over): Last year, 400,000 tons of hazardous waste, including lead and cancer-linked PCBs found in plastics was dumped here. Less than four miles away is Kettleman City. A small, poor community with no grocery store, no high school, and few sidewalks.
The town of 1,500 is also plagued with poor air quality, unsafe drinking water and exposure to pesticides. It also has a startling number of birth defects that some residents believe could be linked to this toxic dump.
In the past three years, 10 babies have been born with birth defects. Three of those children have died. Small town, troubling numbers. Troubling for mothers like Maria Salcedo and Daria Hernandez. Daria's son Joel was born with a cleft pallet.
(on camera): When you look at these pictures as a mom, how does it make you feel?
DARIA HERNANDEZ, KETTLEMAN CITY RESIDENT (through translator): It makes me sad because I look at them, and I remember what we had to go through. It was difficult for him to eat.
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Maria's daughter Ashley also had a cleft pallet. She died.
(on camera): When you knew she didn't have a strong immune system and that you were losing her, what did you say to her?
SALCEDO (through translator): I apologized for not taking her earlier to the hospital. But the doctors told me it wasn't my fault, that with babies like this, this is what happens.
PHILLIPS (voice-over): And just this past February, another baby was born with a birth defect. This is baby Azul (ph). The tenth known case in Kettleman City. Yet in December, local officials voted in favor of expanding this waste site, sparking protests across this small town.
Our investigation led us to a shocking document. Take a look at this 1984 report commissioned by the state of California. It actually identifies communities that are least likely to resist a waste site in their area. And some key characteristics? Low income and Catholic.
INGRID BROSTROM, ATTORNEY WITH THE CENTER ON RACE, POVERTY AND THE ENVIRONMENT: Those describe farm worker Latino communities to a T.
PHILLIPS: In a statement to CNN, Waste Management says its facility operates safely and is fully protective of human health. In addition, four government entities have concluded that Waste Management operates safely. However, we discovered past EPA violations, including failure to perform monthly monitoring for fluids at its PCB landfill. Ingrid Brostrom is an attorney with the Center on Race, Poverty and the Environment.
BROSTROM: If there is any potential that these birth defects are caused by environmental contaminants, then we shouldn't be introducing any new contaminants. There should not be an expansion of the existing hazardous waste dump.
PHILLIPS: Waste Management has paid $3 million in taxes to the county.
BROSTROM: It's essential that the county knows what is causing these birth defects before the hazardous waste dump can be expanded. And, I mean, it really appears like this is really a case about the money.
PHILLIPS: So now, residents and activists have filed a lawsuit against Kings County.
RICHARD VALLE, CHAIRMAN OF THE KINGS COUNTY BOARD OF SUPERVISORS: For any discussion of an item on the consent calendar --
PHILLIPS: Richard Valle, the chairman of the Kings County Board of Supervisors, agreed to an interview with CNN. But when we came to town, he didn't show up.
(on camera): Supervisor Valle?
VALLE: Yes.
PHILLIPS: Hi, I'm Kyra Phillips of CNN.
VALLE: Hi.
PHILLIPS: Hi, you canceled our interview last week. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions, most importantly why you voted to expand the toxic waste site, even without a thorough health investigation.
VALLE: Do you know that I'm the one who called for the health investigation?
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Valle did ask the state for an investigation into birth defects on December 15th. But just a week later, on December 22nd, he voted to expand the waste site.
VALLE: I separated the health concerns out of Kettleman City with the land use decision. The land use decision that I made as it relates to the permit of the Waste Management expansion.
PHILLIPS (on camera): The point is why vote to expand the toxic waste site when that investigation is not done. When the families haven't been talked to and the kids haven't been studied when the numbers haven't been looked at. VALLEY: But I answered that already. I answered that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That question is subject to litigation right now. That's what we're saying is talk to our attorney about those issues.
VALLE: I would be more than happy to talk about this. I have out in the chambers in public meetings. But right now, I have to stand with the county. Folks have filed a lawsuit against us as I thought I had delivered with the health investigation. To some people apparently, that's not good enough.
PHILLIPS: Would you live in Kettleman City? Would you feel comfortable if your wife was pregnant in Kettleman City right now?
VALLE: I can't answer that question. That's not -- I don't think that's a fair question.
PHILLIPS (voice-over): Maria Salcedo echoes the mothers of Kettleman City.
SALCEDO (through translator): I want a response, and I want it quickly. Nobody has given us any answers. And children continue to be born sick.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Kyra Phillips is joining us right now. And, Kyra, does anyone know what's causing the birth defects? I mean, do they know for sure?
PHILLIPS: No. No one knows what's causing the birth defects, Campbell. The known cause of birth defects include genetics, smoking, alcohol, diabetes and environmental factors. And as of right now, since our investigation, the governor of California, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has said I don't want to see anything happen in a further manner with regard to the expansion of this dump until an investigation is done both by the California Department of Public Health and the EPA.
BROWN: So what is the status right now on expansion?
PHILLIPS: Well, the permit has not been issued yet. And both Senators Barbara Boxer and Dianne Feinstein are doing everything they can to say no permit until these investigations are completed. And until then, these families, Campbell, unfortunately, they can only wait and hope for the best.
BROWN: Kyra Phillips for us tonight. Kyra, thank you so much. Appreciate it.
And when we come back, we have an epic online battle that has reached fever pitch. Why China is now blocking Google searches. How the Internet powerhouse plans to retaliate. More on that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: More must-see news happening right now. Mike Galanos here with tonight's "Download."
Hi, Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HLN PRIME NEWS: Hi, Campbell. First off, just into us tonight, Oprah Winfrey settling a defamation lawsuit brought by the former head of a South African girls school. The one-time head mistress claimed she was defamed after Oprah publicly criticized her performance at the school which, again, was rocked by a sex abuse scandal back in 2007. This trial is scheduled to begin Monday in Philadelphia and Oprah was expected to testify.
And some breaking news tonight about the school district in Mississippi that cancelled a prom after a lesbian student asked to bring a girlfriend. A federal judge has agreed the school district violated the teenager's rights, but will not force the district to hold the prom. The case is going forward on a damages claim and the ACLU's request for attorneys' fees.
A Florida man has been sentenced now to 15 years for breaking into jail. Yes, into jail. Here's the story.
Sylvester Jiles is his name. Now he shot a man back in 2007, was released from jail on probation. Three days later, he returned begging officials to put him back in jail because he feared the victim's family was going to take out some revenge on him. The cops told him to file a police report. Instead, Jiles jumped one of the razor wire fences and was trying to get over the second when officials caught him. So on Monday, Jiles got his wish. Fifteen years for violating probation, trespassing on jail property, and he was also injured climbing those barbed wire fences.
Finally this, a newly released video to us from an Amtrak train taken seconds before the train, as you see here, plows into that fire truck. The police car barely got out of the way. This is in Detroit. The cop car backs out just in time. The fire truck not so lucky.
They were there because they were responding to a previous accident. That's why they were on the tracks. The driver of the truck and several passengers aboard that train treated for minor injuries. Only minor injuries, thankfully. And firefighters and cops, again, they're responding to an earlier accident. That's why they're on the tracks. This one is still under investigation, by the way.
BROWN: Oh, lucky.
GALANOS: Incredible video. Yes, I know it.
BROWN: Very, very lucky for all those folks. All right. Mike Galanos for us tonight. Mike, thanks very much.
GALANOS: Yes.
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starting in just a few moments. Larry, what do you have tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Well, we've got quite a show. On the day President Obama signed the health reform bill into law, Mitt Romney is here to talk about that and lawsuits in 2012. Also, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius is aboard. We're going to discuss Joe Biden's private comment too, made public. All that ahead on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. Thanks.
Coming up, it's an international showdown of sorts. Online giant Google sidestepping China, refusing to follow its censorship laws. Well, now China striking back? We have the full story just ahead.
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BROWN: The two-month battle between Google and China came to a head today. The Chinese government partially blocked access to the site, retaliation for Google's announcement yesterday it would no longer censor search results. Instead, Google is now rerouting customers to its uncensored search engine in Hong Kong, kind of a risky move that could cost the company hundreds of millions.
Joining us right now to talk about this from San Francisco is Michael Copeland, who's a senior writer for "Fortune." And here in New York is Nick Thompson, senior editor for "Wired" magazine.
Welcome to both of you. Nick, let me start with you on this. I think from the headlines, people may think that Google is pulling out of China. But explain what it really means, that they are redirecting through their Hong Kong site.
NICK THOMPSON, SENIOR EDITOR, "WIRED" MAGAZINE: Sure. So until yesterday if you wanted to search for say, Tiananmen Square, and you were based in China, you would type it into Google.
BROWN: Right.
THOMPSON: And then the request will be processed by a bunch of computers in China, in mainland China.
BROWN: Yes.
THOMPSON: Google said you know what? We have a slide trick. You know, we don't want any computers in mainland China have to follow the laws of the Chinese government, which are very restrictive. Probably there's another set of laws for Hong Kong --
BROWN: Right.
THOMPSON: -- which is part of China but has a different set of laws and they're much looser. So now, if you type in Tiananmen Square for mainland China, Google redirects that request over computers based in Hong Kong. Those computers don't have to censor and filter the results. So a user in mainland China can type in Tiananmen Square and show results -- BROWN: Well, now, they'll see everything. But before they would see nothing.
THOMPSON: Right.
BROWN: Now with the redirection, they see a list, right?
THOMPSON: They see a list of lengths. They may not actually be able to read the stories because the stories may be blocked, but you'll actually see a list of stories about Tiananmen Square or about democracy or about other terms that were blocked previously.
BROWN: And this is -- I mean, what's sort of the point, the point that Google is trying to make in terms of the big picture?
THOMPSON: Well, Google is kicking the ball back into China's court. They've been fighting for two months. And now Google is saying look, if you want us to leave and you want us to stop, you're going to have to actually throw us out. If you want a divorce, you're going to have to go and file. So it's very much -- it's a very savvy political move that they've done to make China look bad and shine a light on the censorship that's happening in China.
BROWN: But before -- before I bring in Michael here, they don't entirely have the moral high ground, I guess. Google is a little bit hypocritical on this because they do allow censorship in other countries of other information.
THOMPSON: Well, 25 other countries Google does censor some kind of information. Now you can say oh, my gosh, how can they possibly have the moral high ground while they're censoring in Vietnam and all these other places? And that's true to a point. But it's also true that every time censorship comes up somewhere, it's very complicated.
Like in Thailand, you have to censor search results that make fun of the king. Now, that's kind of lame.
BROWN: Right.
THOMPSON: But it's not bad. It's not really disrupting society. In Germany, you have to censor results about Nazi propaganda. Now, maybe that's good. So every country, censorship is different.
BROWN: Right.
THOMPSON: Sometimes it's maybe a little bit good, sometimes a little bad, sometimes it's terrible. So Google has made a judgment call that China is terrible.
BROWN: Michael, talk to me about the business implications of this. Because this is a really high-stakes game they're playing here, right?
MICHAEL COPELAND, SENIOR WRITER, "FORTUNE": Well, so the stakes today aren't quite so high. Google is a distant second in that market, anywhere between 30 to 40 percent of search traffic. And it doesn't make very much money there now. Maybe $250 million. So by Google standards, that's very little. That's very little today.
And don't forget, as with many things, China is the largest Internet market in the world. And so what's troubling for Google's business long-term is that they could put themselves out of that market for the long-run, and that's why you saw Google stock take a hit. That's why some competitors' stocks rose as a result of what they think might be Google getting shut out of China in the long run.
BROWN: And very quickly, I'm out of time here, but, Michael, what's your prediction for how this is going to play out?
COPELAND: Well, I don't think Google kicked the ball back in the court so much as blinked. I mean, China made it very clear that if you're going to do business in China, you've got to abide by our rules. And my sense is that China is not going to back down on this.
BROWN: Right.
COPELAND: The question is, you know, there's plenty of companies that will come in to fill the gap that Google might leave if it gets forced out.
BROWN: All right. Michael, appreciate it. And, Nick, always good to see you. Thanks, guys. Thanks very much.
THOMPSON: Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: That is it for us. You can follow me any time on Twitter. Thanks everybody for joining us.
"LARRY KING LIVE" live is going to start in two minutes. We'll see you tomorrow night.
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