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Campbell Brown
Confederate History Month?; Violence in Kyrgyzstan
Aired April 07, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, everybody. There is blood on the streets in a country far from our shores. But it is a country with an important U.S. military base that supplies Afghanistan. There are reports of the overthrow of the government.
We're going to give you the very latest on that coming up shortly.
And here in the U.S., one of the most heated arguments in the country today over the legacy of the Civil War. Should the South still be honoring the confederacy. Critics say it's offensive. It's time to turn the page. We're going to have a lively debate on that issue coming up.
Plus a stunning admission from the Obama administration about an American citizen marked for death?
We've got a lot to get to tonight but we're going to begin with the trouble in Kyrgyzstan in our "Mash-Up."
A day of violent protest in the capital city appears to have ended in the overthrow of the government. And the country's former foreign minister says she is in control, but there is no independent confirmation tonight of a coup. The Health Ministry telling CNN 40 people were killed in the protest and 400 wounded.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALI VELSHI, CNN ANCHOR: Demonstrations have swept the Central Asian nation which is a key U.S. ally following recent hikes in gas and electric prices.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The opposition said at least 100 died today before announcing it had forced the government to resign.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: The State Department says it can't confirm reports that the government of Kyrgyzstan has fallen.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: By the end of the day protesters had freed their leaders from jail and taken over state-run TV.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: When thousands attacked the president's office, police used live ammunition to repel them.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: There are also reports that Kyrgyzstan's president has fled the country.
LEMON: Kyrgyzstan has been politically unstable for years.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Five years ago in 2005, President Akayev was ousted. And that's how the current president came to power.
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN ANCHOR: The former Soviet republic is a key link in the supply line for U.S. forces in nearby Afghanistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A senior Pentagon official tells CNN that flights out of the American base there have stopped because of the turmoil.
And the latest on the mining disaster in West Virginia. The clock is ticking in an Upper Branch mine tonight. And four miners still unaccounted for after Monday's explosion. Authorities say they know where all four were at the time of the blast. But rescuers still can't get inside the mine. The levels of poisonous gas is still too high.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The drill teams are furiously drilling holes in this mountain to try to vent out some of those dangerous gases but right now they are confronted with the problem of more than one dangerous gas that is keeping the rescue teams at bay.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: To vent the mine of its dangerous gases, crews started drilling three holes last night. The first drill broke through nearly 1100 feet of rock just after 4:00 this morning. Rescuers then banged on the drill but got no response from below.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Officials are focused on three of the five drill sites. All 1100 feet down where the lethal gas is being vented. Two sites are near an airtight refuge center stocked with enough food and water to last four days where they hope to find three miners. They believe the fourth miner is no more than 1,000 feet away.
DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS: ABC News has confirmed two more citations at this coal mine the morning of the explosion. And we've learned that involves cables beneath and also escape routes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And if the missing miners got to the rescue chambers they may have a chance. As we've reported, there's enough air and supplies to keep 15 people alive for 96 hours.
In political news tonight, a San Francisco man was arrested today for allegedly threatening House Speaker Nancy Pelosi over the health care bill. Officials say the man made dozens of calls to Pelosi's home and actually got through to her once. He's in due in court tomorrow. Meanwhile the speaker has a rather unlikely defender. Senator Tom Coburn, an Oklahoma Republican and leading conservative, took some heat from a town hall crowd the other day jus for saying that Pelosi is, quote, "a niece lady." Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: So I'm a 180 degrees in opposition of the speaker. She's a nice lady. I don't think we can wait -- come on now. She is a nice - how many of you all met her? She's a nice person.
Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they're not a good person. And I want to tell you, I've been in the Senate for five years and I've taken a lot of that, because I've been on the small side, both in the Republican Party and the Democrat party.
Just because I don't agree with them doesn't mean I'm bad. So don't catch yourself being biased by FOX News that somebody is no good. The people in Washington are good. They just don't know what they don't know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senator Coburn is up for re-election this year.
And Tiger Woods makes his return to Masters golf tomorrow. But today all the buzz has been about his return to advertising with an extraordinary spot for Nike that uses the voice of the golfer's late father, Earl Woods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EARL WOODS, TIGER WOOD'S FATHER: Tiger, I am more prone to be inquisitive to promote discussion. I want to find out what your thinking was. I want to find out what your feelings are. And did you learn anything?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now ad experts have called the spot everything from powerful to creepy. Woods has lost an estimated $50 million in endorsements in the wake of his sex scandal.
And that brings us right now to the "Punch line." This is courtesy of Jimmy Fallon. Have you heard the one about the airline that wants to charge you for carry-on bags.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": You're not going to like this, you guys. Spirit Airlines has become the first airline in the U.S. to charge passengers for carry-on luggage. $45 to put a bag in the overhead bin. Which is odd because if you had an extra 90 bucks to spend, you probably wouldn't be flying Spirit Airlines. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jimmy Fallon, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
Tonight, new developments in a controversy we've been following all day. A governor honoring the Civil War history of the Confederacy. Well, now he is apologizing.
Also a man wanted in connection with terrorism on U.S. soil. Now the CIA ready to kill him if they find him, despite the fact he is a U.S. citizen.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight in the heart of Civil War country, a long simmering controversy is heating up again. Late today, Virginia's governor, Bob McDonnell, a Republican, issued an apology.
On Friday, he had declared the month of April Confederate History Month. That proclamation issued quietly on the governor's Web site failed to mention anything about slavery. And that omission has infuriated civil rights activists.
This proclamation has been a hot potato for years. Virginia's past two Democratic governors refused to issue it. In a moment, I'll talk with former Governor Doug Wilder who spoke with McDonnell today about all this.
But first CNN's Kate Bolduan gives us the backstory.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Virginia, known for its civil war battlefields. Its capital Richmond was the capital of the confederacy. Now a new battle over that legacy.
Virginia Republican Governor Bob McDonnell has declared April Confederate History Month. "To understand the sacrifices of the confederate leaders, soldiers and citizens."
GOV. ROBERT MCDONNELL (R), VIRGINIA: I thought that just having people look at the history, learning from the mistakes of the history, but understanding Virginia's role in the battlefields, et cetera, would be helpful for economic development. And -- so that's why I signed it up.
BOLDUAN: But the governor is now apologizing for what he calls a major omission, failing to make any mention of slavery, and is amending the proclamation to include it. Civil rights activists had accused the governor of trying to, quote, "white-wash history."
BEN JEALOUS, NAACP: To, you know, not take even a second to acknowledge that the Civil War -- the main purpose of it, the main reason for the -- you know, for that fire that burned across this country was the south's refusal to let go of slavery, which is a deep and abiding crime against humanity. It does suggest that he lacks courage.
BOLDUAN (on camera): For better or worse, Virginia is steeped in confederate history. Monuments like this one can be found throughout the state. Governor McDonnell, in the proclamation, suggested that the move was meant to help boost tourism ahead of next year's 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War.
(Voice-over): The governor says he issued the proclamation at the request of the group Sons of Confederate Veterans. They say the outcry is politically motivated. Earlier, McDonnell gave this explanation for leaving slavery out.
MCDONNELL: Slavery was an absolute abomination on this nation. It was a vile and horrific practice that I'm delighted is wiped off the face of this country. And so I didn't mention it solely because I was trying to keep the focus on really the war aspects of it.
BOLDUAN (voice-over): Kate Bolduan, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And a short time ago, I spoke with former Virginia governor, Doug Wilder, who was the nation's first African-American governor ever elected to serve as a governor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Governor Wilder, welcome to you.
L. DOUGLAS WILDER (D), FMR. GOVERNOR, VIRGINIA: Campbell, always good being with you. Wish you were back here in Richmond.
BROWN: Sometimes I do too.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: So, tonight, before we get to Governor McDonnell's statement that he just put out this evening, I want to go back to how he defended his proclamation to the "Washington Post" earlier.
And he said, quote, "There were any number of aspects to that conflict between the states. Obviously, it involved slavery, it involved other issues, but I focused on the ones that were most significant for Virginia."
Now, I'm guessing, Governor Wilder, that to African-Americans living in Virginia, slavery was a pretty significant issue, but you tell me.
WILDER: Well, I think so.
BROWN: What did you think when you first read that?
WILDER: Well, when I first read it and heard about it, I knew that it was not right. I knew that it was wrong. I knew that it had to be revised. I knew that there had to be a change. And I knew that there would be a reaction. And all of that has come true.
BROWN: You spoke with Governor McDonnell this afternoon as he was putting the statement together.
WILDER: Yes.
BROWN: What did he tell you?
WILDER: Well, he called and he pretty much said that he was going to do what he's done in terms of revising the statement and ultimately revised the proclamation itself.
And I reminded him of what he said to me when he said to the people of Virginia during the inaugural. He pointed to me while I was in the stands and said this nation, this state, has come from a place where Doug Wilder, the grandson of slaves, could be a governor.
Now that is what slavery was about. We came from a period of deprivation and denial and dehumanization, and uplifted. That's the Bob McDonnell that I thought would have been a part of this proclamation.
That's why I think he should be commended for being man enough and strong enough and straightforward enough to say look, I made a mistake. It was a mistake. I should have included things in it that I didn't. Now I shall do so and make it even in this proclamation.
BROWN: So you're satisfied with what he said now?
WILDER: I am pleased to the extent that he's let it be known that he is not acting as if this was something that a glorious period of our times. He's called it an abomination. He has said it was (INAUDIBLE). He has likewise recognized that he made a mistake in not fully letting people know what he really meant and what he was attempting to do.
BROWN: So do you think now that it's OK to celebrate Confederate History Month?
WILDER: No, I don't. And that's where we get past. Celebration to me is a time of joy. It's a time of fulfilling suppressed desires of getting over it and saying oh, boy this is good.
What is there to celebrate when you consider a half million of people during that time were Africans in slavery? People who had no hope to believe that anything was going to happen. This was the celebration of the beginning of the Civil War? What would have happened had they been successful?
BROWN: Governor, I got to ask you, you did refuse to endorse the Democrat who ran against Bob McDonnell last year. Do you regret that?
WILDER: That's correct.
BROWN: How do you --
WILDER: No, I don't --
BROWN: How do you think this whole episode reflects on him now?
WILDER: I don't regret that. It's all -- I think that the Bob McDonnell that I spoke at the inaugural when he was sworn in is the Bob McDonnell that's speaking to the man in the proclamation that he issues. He's recognized the mistake. He's not the -- Bob McDonnell that was a part of that pieces that Creigh Deeds focused upon.
No, the candidate for the Democrats, in my judgment did not represent the values that I think most Virginians believed in and I think that this hiccup, as far as the McDonnell administration, is something that could be and should be cured. I hope that it is.
BROWN: Governor Wilder, it's always good to talk to you. Really appreciate your time tonight.
WILDER: Thank you so much. Always, Campbell.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And we're going to go deeper into this controversy in just a moment. My guests include the man whose group asked for that proclamation in the first place. That coming up right after the break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we continue our conversation about the controversy surrounding Virginia's declaration of Confederate History Month, here are a couple of facts. There are more statues of Confederate soldiers in Virginia than any other state. More than 100. And it was only 13 years ago that Virginia stopped using as its state song "Carry Me Back to Old Virginia" which included some racially offensive lyrics.
A lot of history here and with me now to talk about this is Virginia state senator, Donald McEachin, Brag Bowling of the Virginia Vision of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, and historian Doug Brinkley joining us as well.
Brag, let me start with you. Your group has been pushing for Confederate History Month for a long time now. Make your case. Why do we need it?
BRAG BOWLING, SONS OF CONFEDERATE VETERANS: Virginia was a southern state. The confederate soldier was the person who defended that state against a huge invasion by the north. And he hasn't been honored and it's very similar to what's happening today with the Vietnam veteran.
It's like a chapter of history has been erased. And we felt like -- and Governor McDonnell said it perfectly. There's education that will benefit everybody and tourism will help the state and make people money. And the confederate soldier needs to be honored and remembered.
BROWN: So what do you make then of the governor's decision to add this anti-slavery language to the proclamation today?
BOWLING: Well, as you can see from Governor Wilder's statement, it really doesn't matter if that's in there or not. He's still against it. And that makes a good case, I think, for the need for Confederate History Month, because the opposition, the people who are making the most noise about this, don't even want to hear it.
That's bad education. That doesn't move the ball forward.
BROWN: But -- I think the point of my question though is don't you think that slavery ought to be a part of the conversation if you're going to talk about Confederate History Month?
BOWLING: The language of the resolution was an omission by Governor McDonnell. We didn't create the language. All we asked for is a truthful and accurate history of the period.
BROWN: OK. But this -- before I get to everybody else, very quickly --
BOWLING: And that includes slavery.
BROWN: Do you think -- that's what I was going to say. If --
BOWLING: It does. It includes slavery.
BROWN: If you want an accurate picture of the period, you've got to include slavery, right?
BOWLING: Right. But I think what Governor McDonnell was looking for, since it was a resolution asked for by the Sons of Confederate Veterans which is an organization which represents confederate -- ancestors of confederate soldiers that would be more geared towards the soldier.
And I think that's where he was coming from and it was an omission on his part, something that our organization is not opposed to. Any sane person in the 21st century is opposed to slavery.
But we've got to look at the period of the time. You look at Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant.
BROWN: Right.
BOWLING: At the end of the war, who owns slaves? It was Grant.
BROWN: All right, Senator McEachin, you were opposed to Confederate History Month before. I'm assuming you have not changed your mind in the midst of all this. Have you?
A. DONALD MCEACHIN (D), VIRGINIA STATE SENATE: No, I haven't. You know unfortunately Virginia has been in a very bad new cycle for the past 24 hours. And it's regrettable.
If you're going to do something like this, you ought to be -- first of all, all of this Civil War history that we're looking at and the sacrifices of people on both sides, both the north and the south.
But you know, the real problem we have here is that we have a governor who has failed to embrace a non-discrimination statute. That's put us on a negative light. We've had an attorney general who has sued the federal government over health care. That's put us in a negative light. And now we have this.
BROWN: Doug, let me bring you in and take us, I guess, to a little broader perspective here. First of all, when you first heard about this problem proclamation did you think it would survive the day as is?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, RICE UNIVERSITY: No.
BROWN: Or clearly we were headed down this path?
BRINKLEY: Well, I think, since you read the language of Governor McDonnell, you realized he made a terrible mistake. Whether it's purposeful or not, I don't know. But it was obvious he was going to have to put in a -- some slavery language.
This is the lost cause scenario that somehow the south -- there is some big neo-confederate movement -- groups like the League of the South, the southern party, United Daughters of the Confederacy, you can rattle off 20 of them -- feel that the winners, the union has somehow dominated the history books and that confederates never get their fair due.
And then tend to build it up on Lincoln as a Marxist, and that slavery wasn't the real cause of the war. So it's part and parcel with the kind of neo-confederate literature that comes out. And it's a revisionist at its heart.
BROWN: And to that point, Doug, it comes out every time this issue comes up, involving flying a confederate flag. I mean it's like we repeat the same debate over and over again.
BRINKLEY: Well, look, we're in a big states rights movement right now. There's a real anti-federal government feeling particularly in the Republican Party. Governor Rick Perry of Texas, I'll talk about Texas succeeding from the union. And the people of New York said, gosh, what a mistake, but ended up beating Kay Bail Hutchison.
Governor McDonnell is a shrewd man. He figured that there was some political play in this that was going to solidify him with the right of the Republican Party and show him that he was a true Virginian in this regard.
It was a mistake. I'm glad he fixed the language and we can move on with it -- things. Because it wasn't a helpful day for anybody.
BROWN: Brag, do you agree with that sentiment at least? I mean, given what you were trying to achieve here, where are you on this?
BOWLING: Well, I mean, I think the professor is completely wrong. And I think Governor McDonnell did this --
BROWN: But wrong about what? Be specific that -- I mean, what your -- I mean you don't agree that we don't continue having this conversation over and over every time this issue is raised?
BOWLING: Well, I mean the issue is, does Virginia honor the people that fought for the state who had to fight armies three times their size that basically destroyed the state and killed thousands of our citizens?
Our organization represents the descendants of confederate veterans. We view them honorably, whether the national media does or not.
BROWN: Let me give you the last word here, Senator.
MCEACHIN: Well, you know, we are hired in Virginia to solve the problems of Virginia. We've got huge problems in terms of transportation, education, any number of -- any number of other issues. And things like this, things like this proclamation and the other things that Governor McDonnell has done over the past 60 days are not advancing the ball in that regard.
We need get back to solving the kitchen table problems of everyday, ordinary Virginians.
BROWN: All right. Gentlemen, appreciate your time tonight. Thank you very much for joining us.
MCEACHIN: Thank you.
BROWN: When we come back, we're going to talk about a man who is now marked for death. Does the U.S. government have the legal right to order the assassination of an American citizen linked to terrorism?
We'll talk about that after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In a stunning development, a U.S. official confirmed to CNN today that our government has targeted an American citizen, a Muslim cleric, for what amounts to legal assassination.
Anwar al-Awlaki who is believed to be hiding in Yemen has been linked to the accused Ft. Hood shooter, the accused Christmas Day bomber and the two of the 9/11 hijackers. He also has a huge following in Britain where followers say he is like Osama bin Laden.
But should our government mark an American citizen for death? And joining me right now is Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ron Tuscan who's with us from Washington, former CIA operative, Fred Berman in Little Rock, Arkansas tonight, and CNN senior legal and political analyst Jeffrey Toobin here with me in New York.
Jeff, let me start with you. The American government putting an American citizen on an assassination list. Do we do this? JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, you know, in 1975, Gerald Ford signed an executive order that said we do not assassinate. Period. Well, after 9/11 that really became obsolete.
BROWN: Right.
TOOBIN: We have been targeting Osama bin Laden and everyone associated with him for quite some time. It is not surprising and it is not illegal that an American is now on that list, because the argument is our military requirement are that we kill Al Qaeda leaders. And if it's an American, so be it.
BROWN: So, Fred, is this the first time that you have heard of an American being targeted?
FRED BURTON, FORMER CIA OPERATIVE: No, Campbell. If you look, we've had Assam (ph) the American, which is Adam Gadahn, has been a high-valued target for quite some time. And I think that if you look at this from a strategic perspective, this is to be expected. And if you think about it from the concept of these predator drone strikes hit, they're going to take out whoever is in that building or hut or cave. So I think they're looking at just a counterterrorism strategy here, where this individual has placed himself in a position where he's going to be at the receiving end of a missile strike.
BROWN: That may be the case, Ron, but that doesn't change the fact that I think a lot of jaws dropped today hearing this news that it's not capture this guy but kill this guy, an American. And I know, as Jeff pointed out, the rules certainly changed after 9/11. But were you surprised to hear that this administration would be taking this step?
RON SUSKIND, JOURNALIST, AUTHOR: You know, from the very start, Campbell, I think the thinking was this administration would be moving in the other direction, rather than going further than the Bush administration essentially had which is what they have done at this point. You know, it's interesting because what you're in again is the same sort of problem the Bush administration faced. I don't think the Obama administration is doing much better about it in terms of these wider issues of American principles.
You know, the fact is that how this will traffic around the world as the United States is now willing to kill American citizens that oppose it. Now, obviously, nobody wants this guy to be out there creating the trouble he has been creating, but think about what this does, what happened today. Essentially, it raises the profile of al- Awlaki, who's a real problem. It makes him something of a rock star. He's already celebrated. And probably ten times as many people will start reading his virulent matter online on the vast World Wide Web.
You know, this issue of identifying in a kind of we're going to get you way, these terrorists or these folks encouraging terrorism, has been shown not to be particularly effective. What happens is essentially, they become enlarged. They become actually more prominent and what they say becomes more prominent. And now, he is in a kind of peer status with the United States. There are much better ways to do this. The Bush administration found this out at the end of their tenure, to work quietly, to not essentially act in this sort of blustery way. And that goes to the heart of this hearts and mind struggle. It seems the Obama administration still hasn't figured that part out.
BROWN: Go ahead.
TOOBIN: This was a news leak. It wasn't an announcement by the Obama administration. Now, I know sometimes news leaks are intentional but I don't know the idea that the Obama administration raised his profile. The journalists at the "New York Times" did a good job in ferreting this out. I don't think that's the same thing as the Obama administration intentionally raising his profile and turning him into some kind of hero. He was already a pretty big hero to start with.
SUSKIND: Well, look, to be fair, you know, the fact is in the news cycles and the way they operate now, if you do something it's going to get out. You have to think about the fact that we make this step and we essentially put this guy on the kill list, it's going to get out. Actually reporters in January, "Reuters,' "L.A. Times," others have been on this story for months.
You know, I think we're not thinking as clearly as we might be thinking as to how the United States can say we stick to our principles and there are certain things we do not do. And we try not to engage with these people in the kind of us or them way which I think, frankly, we are now with Awlaki.
BROWN: OK, Fred, I'll give you the last word very quickly if you can.
BURTON: Well, I think it boils down to still an intelligence problem which we've been talking about (INAUDIBLE) for quite some time. You still have to find him. You lack the human intelligence to be able to find him.
BROWN: All right, guys. Thank you very much. Appreciate your time. We're going to take another quick break.
In Minnesota today, a coming together of two conservative mega stars, Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann. They're wowing the tea party crowd, but will Democrats have the last laugh? We're going to talk to Mark Halperin when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We have something new for you tonight. A segment we're calling "M2." That stands for Matalin and Martin, our powerhouse team of Mary Matalin and Roland Martin. They're going to be here every night, each with their distinctive take on the stories that everybody is talking about. They're in New Orleans tonight.
Guys, what have you got?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Hey, Campbell, thanks a bunch.
You talked about the confederate story in Virginia. And, Mary, I'm sorry. This is a month honoring American terrorists. People who wanted to defend a system of degradation called slavery. You don't honor people like that?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Really?
MARTIN: Yes.
MATALIN: Really? So despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of southerners were not slave owners and the overwhelming majority of northerners were not abolitionists.
MARTIN: Right.
MATALIN: That's not what this was about.
MARTIN: What is it about?
MATALIN: The absence of condemnation is not proof of approval in the south. The heritage of the south, I'm new to the south.
MARTIN: I'm not. Born and raised in Texas my whole life.
MATALIN: All right. So to celebrate the unique heritage, the culture, the literature, the food, the arts, the architecture.
MARTIN: No, no, no. This is -- Mary, this is not a food and architecture. This is celebrating confederates, people who were traitors who seceded from the union. People who wanted to keep a system, a sin against humanity in place. How do you honor people like that? That's like somebody saying, hey, let's go have a month to celebrate, you know, the Nazi soldiers who were only doing their job.
MATALIN: That's like saying that if you celebrate anything in Germany today, you're celebrating Nazism?
MARTIN: No, not celebrating anything in Germany but when you specifically are celebrating confederates, confederate heroes, and then the governor of Virginia, Bob McDonnell, even had the audacity to say he didn't include slavery in his initial statement because he felt that it wasn't significant enough. Quote, "I focused on the ones I thought were most significant for Virginia." Slavery was huge as related to the confederacy.
MATALIN: You know what? I understand and respect this invokes very deep emotions and passions. I really respect what you're saying. I understand it's symbolic. But I also understand it's a seminal event in American history, that Virginia --
MARTIN: No.
MATALIN: In Virginia, there are 123 battles. The next closest state was Tennessee with 38. We have a farm in the Shenandoah Valley. It's replete with history. This is a piece of American history. MARTIN: It is.
MATALIN: Part of it is ugly, but there are many, many other issues.
MARTIN: we're in a post racial, 150 years later. We can't talk about this? We're in the post racial 150 years later. We can't sit and talk about this?
MARTIN: We can talk about this but all the concentration camps a part of Germany, absolutely, but no one is celebrating the German soldiers. They condemn them.
You condemn the acts against humanity.
MATALIN: Condemn Nazism. We condemn slavery.
MARTIN: We don't celebrate the confederate for a whole month.
MATALIN: You don't condemn the whole south and you don't --
MARTIN: No, this is not the whole south. This is not the whole south. This is confederate.
MATALIN: Nobody is celebrating slavery.
MARTIN: They want to celebrate the confederates. That, again, in fact, he even said that one of the reasons they did that because this is designed to promote tourism. So, hey, I guess we ought to have folks walking around in chains around the capitol to celebrate.
MATALIN: You know what? There are three civil war reenactments. Some of this -- OK. Look, we're never going to agree on this. I get the focus you have. I understand why you have the focus you have.
MARTIN: Why? Because the people who lost? They wanted folks like me to still be in chains.
MATALIN: No, no, no.
MARTIN: So, yes, I don't really excuse them.
MATALIN: No, no.
MARTIN: Yes, they did.
MATALIN: OK. We're not going to agree so we're going to move on to a really silly story. I don't know where we're going to be on this. It's sort of -- you know, we might be on the same side.
MARTIN: OK.
MATALIN: For people who spend more time in airports. Wish we were here at Giacomo's more often than we're in airports. Which airline is it today?
MARTIN: Spirit Airlines.
MATALIN: They're making you pay extra for carry-ons? I say hurrah. I'm paying for the carry-ons. Cheaters now anyways. People who don't want to check their bags carry so much stuff I can't even sit down.
MARTIN: No, I'm not buying it. You know, I'm sick of these airlines charging for everything. I get -- OK, I accepted this whole deal of charging for the bags you check. But now to carry-on? I mean, what's next? Are you going to charge me for bringing my own food on because you have to dispose of the trash?
MATALIN: Go somewhere else.
MARTIN: Exactly right.
MATALIN: Take another airline.
MARTIN: I will never every fly Spirit Airlines.
MATALIN: Spirit, I'm with you.
MARTIN: This is dumb.
MARTIN: Spirit, I'm with you.
MARTIN: And the CEO had the nerve to say but we're doing this because we want to make it faster for people to get off. It's a carry-on. It's a bag.
MATALIN: Oh, no. Don't you get on planes with carry-on cheaters? They've got stuff under their feet. They got stuff overhead.
MARTIN: Why? And why do they do that?
MATALIN: Because they don't want to wait for their bags.
MARTIN: No, they do it because these airlines are sticking it to us by charging us all of this money. So I think that Spirit --
MATALIN: Spirit, I'm with you.
MARTIN: No, Spirit -- forget the fact, I will never fly with that airlines.
All right. Talking about Spirit, let's talk about this ridiculous demonic spirit at Augusta National Golf Club. Today, Chairman Billy Payne gave a news conference and he made this statement regarding Tiger Woods.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILLY PAYNE, CHMN., AUGUSTA NATIONAL GOLF CLUB: It is not simply the degree of his conduct that is so egregious here. It is the fact that he disappointed all of us and more importantly, our kids and our grandkids. Our hero did not live up to the expectations of the role model we saw for our children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: Our hero, our role model? This is a sexist golf club that will not allow an accomplished woman like yourself, Mary, to even become a member. And they have the audacity to criticize Tiger Woods and beyond. And shut up, Billy Payne.
MATALIN: Look, it is not -- it is not Tiger's job to be a hero to our kids. It's his job to be a hero to his own kids. I don't want to be in that club. I belong to two all girls' clubs here. Fine, it's a private club, far less offensive than the government, a club I cannot unjoin making me use my tax dollars to pay for abortions and other things like --
MARTIN: But a lot of these private golf clubs take advantage of governmental tax breaks as a result of the land. So in that light it's totally private.
MATALIN: They shouldn't. There should be no government complicity.
MARTIN: But who are they to stand here talking about disappointing role models when you have a sexist club? How do they look to their wives and their daughters in the face condemning Tiger but they stand there and say, oh, ladies, I'm sorry. You can't come in.
MATALIN: This is what we call tone deaf in the political business. And I'm sure people will make that point. But I go back to the point we've been making all week, and I think we agree on. It is that the only person to whom you owe heroism and role modeling is to your own kids.
MARTIN: I agree. I agree.
MATALIN: His job is to be a golfer.
MARTIN: I agree.
MATALIN: So --
MARTIN: I agree there. But Billy Payne, I'm sorry, stop being a sexist all you Augusta National Golf Club members?
MATALIN: And Tiger, just win so we can quit talking about you.
MARTIN: Absolutely.
MATALIN: That is it for us. Fried green tomatoes from Giacomo's tonight.
MARTIN: Go, Tiger.
BROWN: And still ahead, the first ladies of the tea party joining forces to rally conservatives to the Republican cause. Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann together on one stage after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few moments. Larry, what do you have for us tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Campbell, we've got a prime time exclusive with Martina Navratilova, the tennis legend, a formidable opponent she's determined to beat then tell us all about it. And Dr. Oz is here with some advice that could save your life. We'll also go live to West Virginia for the latest on the mine disaster. We'll talk to the governor and the survivor of the blast. He's got an incredible story. All next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in just a few minutes.
We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, tea party favorites Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann bring down the house in Minnesota. Mark Halperin is going to be here to tell us all about it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Could this be the face, the new face of the GOP? Tea party superstars, Sarah Palin and Representative Michele Bachmann, join forces today to rally conservatives in Minnesota. Thousands turned out to watch the two women tear in the Democrats and heap praise upon each other.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: -- is absolutely drop dead gorgeous as this woman is, on the outside, I am here to testify she is 20 times more beautiful on the inside.
SARAH PALIN (R), FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I knew that we'd be buddies when I met her up there when she told me that we should drill here, drill now. And then I replied drill, baby, drill. And then we both said you "you betcha." Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Also on hand today, Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty, who will all know has his eye on 2012. He's doing a delicate dance with an unpredictable grass roots insurgency, pretty outraged over beltway business as usual.
And joining us right now is Mark Halperin, senior political analyst and editor-at-large for "Time" magazine to talk about all this. Let me start with Palin and Bachmann. And I'm going to throw out some pictures of them sort of working the crowd today. And I think like think back to a couple of years ago, most people didn't know who these two women were at all. And now they are the superstars.
MARK HALPERIN, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "TIME" MAGAZINE: They are icons of American politics. As you point out, they've just become known. But for Republicans, it's like twin Ronald Reagans in dresses and skirts. For Democrats, it's "Thelma and Louise." These two have a huge following.
I wrote in "Time" magazine this week and last week that Sarah Palin doesn't do subtle very well. You know, she is the mistress of subtle thinking compared to Michele Bachmann. These two are take no prisoners. They don't have any aspirations to leave the center of the country, but they are revving up the tea party movement and conservatives across the country in states like Minnesota and elsewhere.
BROWN: Now, Tim Pawlenty, usually a headliner of events in Minnesota, now the opening act today. Let's take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. TIM PAWLENTY (R), MINNESOTA: I want to leave you with one thought. The Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King said that the measure of a person is not where they stand in times of comfort and privilege, but where they stand in times of challenge and controversy. Your presence here today answers the question. You're standing up to say enough is enough. You're standing up to say I'm willing to fight back. You're standing up to say that our freedom, our liberties, our values matter and we're putting a marker down. And we're going to restore common sense to the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So you look at Palin and Bachmann. And then you look at this Republican rising star.
HALPERIN: Right.
BROWN: And they really do represent different parts of the Republican Party in a way, who very much need each other, I guess. How do they relate to one another?
HALPERIN: Well, Sarah Palin and Michele Bachmann do not need the Pawlenty wing, the more centrist ring of the party to do what they do. If Tim Pawlenty wants to be president, he's going to have to deal with and energize that wing of the party, the Palin-Bachmann wing, but also find a way to do something, again, that Bachmann and Palin do not seem to care about, which appealed to the center.
He there -- he came out for freedom, he came out for, you know, liberty. He came out for a lot of things that are easy to say. The tougher part is coming up with policies that don't alienate that wing of the party.
BROWN: Well, I was going to say, it's a delicate dance though, too, because there are a lot of people in this country if you're trying to appeal to the independents who find this whole tea party movement with the anger that is associated with it right now a little bit scary. HALPERIN: Well, there are people who find it scary but there are also people on the left and the right who share a lot of things that they're angry about. They're angry about expensive wars. They're angry at Wall Street. They're angry at bailouts for fat cats. So it's easy these days. And Tim Pawlenty is probably, I think it's fair to say he wouldn't take offense, not as charismatic as Bachmann and Palin. But he can go into a crowd like that and give a great speech, totally consistent with what he believes. That is easy. The harder part, again, is going out to a wider group of people who either find the tea party movement scary or who want to hear some policies specific and not just Tim Pawlenty who loves freedom.
BROWN: Rallying the crowd. All right. Mark Halperin, good to see you as always. Thanks very much.
HALPERIN: All right.
BROWN: And we've got a fascinating story for you when we come back. Cosmetic surgery in a war zone. We're not kidding, right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You would think people living on the front lines of war would have perhaps more pressing problems, but apparently the beauty business is booming in Baghdad. Mohammed Jamjoom reports for us tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MOHAMMED JAMJOOM, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These days you hear a lot about the changing face of Iraq. But that's a phrase that was never meant to be taken literally.
"When I'm quiet, I don't have a problem with my face," says Noor. "But when I smile, I feel like my face isn't pretty, so that's how I decided."
The 26-year-old got her first nose job at 15. She thought that surgery was botched, so she's going under the knife again. To her, this is nothing out of the ordinary, even for an Iraqi.
"The Internet, video clips, television, we see that those who get surgeries done, they look prettier," says Noor. "And that encourages us and give us an incentive to get cosmetic surgery."
(on camera): Noor could have gone to a government-run hospital here in Baghdad and gotten this procedure entirely for free. But Noor, like many other Iraqis who were electing to have cosmetic surgery procedures decided to come to a private-run hospital, like this one. Even though it's more expensive, it ends up taking less time and more importantly they can choose the doctor they want.
(voice-over): Dr. Zakaria used to work primarily on the war wounded, but demand for plastic surgery has skyrocketed in the past few years. From tummy tucks to eyelifts, he gets more patients every month. And he has a good idea why.
ZAKARIA MAHMOUD, SURGEON: I think because they are watching TV too much. Now the international, you know, the satellites has brought such a new culture, new culture to our society.
JAMJOOM: At Ahmad's (ph) salon, his customers are loyal and his business is booming. Hair is styled and brows are tweezed.
"You know, the Iraqi woman has to take care of herself," says Nada (ph). She's known throughout the Arab world and throughout the rest of the world for her style, for her look, for her design.
And Nada, like Noor, doesn't have to go for inspiration.
"We searched the Internet," says Nada, "and watch the satellite channels, always looking for something special."
Inspiring for some, disturbing for others.
YANAR MOHAMMED, FEMALE RIGHTS ACTIVIST: In a society where you are bombarded by messages from the media that you need to look like a model, your nose needs to be small and your eyebrows do not look good you need to replace them by synthetic eyebrows and your lips are not big enough, you cannot live in peace with yourself as a woman.
JAMJOOM: A different kind of bombardment than Baghdad has been known for, but more and more billboards like this will go up promising procedures that will erase the scars of normal Iraqis standing in stark contrast to a city still pockmarked by years of war.
Mohammed Jamjoom, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And that's it for us. Thanks for joining us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
