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Campbell Brown

President Obama Wraps Up Nuclear Summit; Painful Truth About Adoption

Aired April 13, 2010 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey there, everybody.

A big day in Washington. President Obama wraps up his nuclear summit there, the biggest gathering of world leaders in the U.S. since 1945, and the first ever global summit devoted exclusively to nuclear -- nuclear terrorism. Obama says we are all safer now that 47 countries have agreed to secure the world's nuclear materials within the next four years. With few specifics and an agreement that is nonbinding, the president still had a positive assessment. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We recognized that while different countries face different challenges, we have a mutual interest in securing these dangerous materials. So, today is a testament to what is possible when nations come together in a spirit of partnership to embrace our shared responsibility and confront a shared challenge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What comes next? We're going to ask Senator Sam Nunn, who has made the nuclear threat his life's work. He is going to join us a little later.

And that brings us to a thread that runs throughout a lot of tonight's show, the art of compromise. You know the song you can't always get what you want? So, where do you exactly draw the line?

First lady Michelle Obama, that's where we begin, in the news tonight after her stealth visit to Haiti, has struck -- or stuck very much to a supporting role since moving into the White House. So, did she make a conscious decision to tone herself down to fit the traditional first lady role? We're going to talk to some smart folks with very strong opinions about that.

And today we also learned that investigators still haven't been able to talk to the Tennessee family who returned their child, their adopted child, to Russia. But we have a fascinating conversation tonight with another adoptive mom who admits that her story was not exactly happily ever after either. Do we expect too much of adoptive parents? We have got all that and a whole lot more coming up.

But we are going to begin with your cheat sheet for the top stories of the day, our "Mash-Up." And our top international story tonight is, of course, Michelle Obama's first solo international trip, the first lady due to arrive within the hour in Mexico City. But, earlier, she surprised everybody when she showed up unannounced in Haiti to visit with survivors of January's devastating earthquake. Aides say they kept the Haiti visit secret because of security concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She took a helicopter tour of the quake-damaged capital. She was there with Jill Biden, the wife of Vice President Joe Biden.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But, beyond the wreckage, she found glimpses of hope in Haiti's children, singing and dancing to traditional Creole songs, and painting with them in a makeshift art studio constructed from a bus.

KELLY COBIELLA, CBS NEWS: Many Haitians tell us they want to see President Obama walk these streets as a show of support, like other leaders have already. Still, they see this visit from the first lady as an important gesture.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Tomorrow, the first lady will meet with students in Mexico City and have dinner with Mexico's president and his wife.

The caught-on-tape beating of a student by police is our top domestic story tonight, and it happened at the University of Maryland after the men's basketball game -- or bask team there defeated Duke on March 3. And you should know that this video is rather disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BRAD BELL, WJLA REPORTER Watch carefully what happens now, as he is slammed into the wall, knocked unconscious, and then beaten more than a dozen times by Prince George's County police officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is police brutality, pure and simple.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the sworn police statement, the officers claim McKenna struck them and their horses, causing minor injuries, and that the student was -- quote -- "kicked by the horses and sustained minor injuries -- unquote.

MAJOR ANDREW ELLIS, SPOKESPERSON, PRINCE GEORGE'S COUNTY, MARYLAND, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, we are embarrassed and we are outraged to look at what's happening on the video. The statement of charges clearly is not supported by what the video shows, and it is not the type of behavior we expect from our officers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Due to the incident, one officer has been suspended and prosecutors are now investigating the incident.

Our number-one political story tonight, good news and bad news for Mike Huckabee. The latest CNN/Opinion Research poll found that 24 percent of Republicans and independents who lean Republican would support Huckabee for president. Well, that puts him ahead of Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, and Newt Gingrich. That's the good news. The bad news is this interview he did with some college journalists last week in which he compared same-sex marriage to incest and polygamy.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MIKE HUCKABEE (R), FORMER ARKANSAS GOVERNOR: You don't go ahead and accommodate every behavioral pattern that is against the ideal. I mean, that would be like saying, well, there are a lot of people who like to use drugs, so let's go ahead and accommodate those who want to use drugs.

There are some people who believe in incest, so we should accommodate them. There are people who believe in polygamy. Should we accommodate them? But where do you...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, accommodating gays and lesbians is equivalent to accommodating those who are incestuous?

(CROSSTALK)

HUCKABEE: No. What I'm saying is that, once you accommodate someone's desires for a lifestyle, who gets to choose where it starts and where it stops?

If -- only when you get to say, look, I get to make that choice. I have always found it disingenuous, once again, when people say, well, it's OK for this to be changed, but not polygamy, for example. Why not? What is different?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Today, Huckabee put out a statement defending what he called the traditional definition of marriage and accusing the interviewer here of sensationalizing his comments.

And the story that people are buzzing about tonight. Medvedev loves metal whom. Would have thought? The Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev, is a Pink Floyd fan? Well, he is. Take a listen as he fessed up to George Stephanopoulos this morning on "Good Morning America."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC ANCHOR: As a teenager, Medvedev saved for months to buy Pink Floyd's The Wall.

You have a deep love of heavy metal. Where did that come from? Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Pink Floyd...

DMITRY MEDVEDEV, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): That's from my childhood, my adolescence. I don't know. What music did you listen to at the age of 15 or 20?

STEPHANOPOULOS: My wife makes fun of me. It was soft rock.

MEDVEDEV (through translator): Although I lived behind the Soviet Iron Curtain, the music seeped through. We listened to what the whole planet listened to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Medvedev is 44, the youngest Russian leader in more than a century.

And that brings us to tonight's "Punchline," courtesy of Jimmy Fallon, who just can't resist a joke about Hillary Clinton. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": There is a rumor going around that Hillary Clinton could be Obama's choice for the next Supreme Court justice.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

FALLON: Now, this is a lifetime appointment that would take up all of her time, or, as Bill Clinton calls it, she will take it.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Jimmy Fallon, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."

A big deal worked out at the nuclear summit today in Washington, but will it really keep the terrorists from getting their hands on nuclear material? One of the most important experts on the issue of nuclear weapons, former Senator Sam Nunn, will give us his take right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Obama issued a broad challenge to world leaders today at his historic 47-nation nuclear summit. The president urged the group to move from talk to action when it comes to trying to secure nuclear stockpiles.

By day's end, the White House was touting real progress in the high- stakes negotiations. A series of deals were made aimed at keeping nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists in rogue states.

Our own Dan Lothian reports on what today's agreement really means. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's not legally binding, but President Obama says this communique, unanimously signed by world leaders at the nuclear summit, is a promising pledge.

OBAMA: I believe they take their commitments very seriously. If what you're asking is, is, do we have a international one-world law enforcement mechanism, we don't. We never have. So, in all of our efforts internationally, in every treaty that we sign, we're relying on goodwill.

LOTHIAN: The two-day summit produced other agreements, too, Ukraine, Mexico, Canada, Chile promising to reduce dangerous stockpiles, a move the president calls the most effective way to keep these materials out of the hands of terrorists.

OBAMA: We are declaring that nuclear terrorism is one of the most challenging threats to international security.

LOTHIAN: But there was no agreement on whether China will support tougher sanctions on Iran. It wasn't technically on the agenda, but it hovered over sideline bilateral meetings.

President Hu Jintao says China and the U.S. share the same goals, but he stopped short of embracing what the U.S. wants. China has dispatched representatives to the U.N. in New York to hash this out. President Obama expressed confidence that China will come on board, but cautioned that even tougher sanctions aimed at curtailing Iran's nuclear appetite won't produce immediate results.

OBAMA: Sanctions aren't a magic wand. What sanctions do accomplish is hopefully to change the calculus of a country like Iran, so that they see that there are more costs and fewer benefits to pursuing a nuclear weapons program.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN: Now, in describing the strategy going into this two-day summit, a senior administration official said that they use this gathering shamelessly to try to get some of these countries to show up with -- quote -- "house gifts," in other words, come here with some kind of commitments.

Well, the U.S. did get commitments. They have the handshakes. But, again, the big question is whether or not those handshakes and commitments will turn into real action starting tomorrow -- Campbell.

BROWN: All right, Dan Lothian for us tonight -- Dan, thanks very much.

And Sam Nunn, the highly respected former senator from Georgia, has been leading efforts to try to stop the spread of nuclear weapons for decades, first in government, and now as the CEO of the Nuclear Threat Initiative. And I spoke with him earlier this evening.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator Nunn, let's have you walk us through some of this.

There were a number of commitments made today, among them, Ukraine and Mexico giving up their entire stockpile of highly enriched uranium. Russia will eliminate weapons-grade plutonium from its military program. Russia will close a major plutonium production reactor.

So, given what the president sort of laid out for us, in your view, are we now safer because of all of this?

SAM NUNN (D), FORMER U.S. SENATOR: I think the main thing, in addition to those accomplishments, which hopefully will be carried out in the near term, is to focus the world's attention on the threat, because there has not been a consensus that this really was one of the most important security issues facing not only the United States, but the world.

So, to get 46 heads of state here to talk about the threat, to be exposed to briefings on the threat, and to come out with a communique which acknowledges that this is not only a top security issue, but it also is going to require cooperation around the globe, to me, that's the most significant outcome of today's conference.

We have been waiting a long time for it. It's overdue, very important. Now, in terms of the individual countries, I would say at the top of my list would be Ukraine getting rid of their highly enriched uranium, because that's been a goal for a long time.

BROWN: Everybody pretty much agreed today that perhaps the most important thing is keeping this nuclear material out of the hands of terrorists.

And I know you just worked on a new documentary about that very thing. It's -- and screened it for the president at the White House last week. I want to show people a very quick clip of this. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NUNN: We know several things. We know that the know-how in terms of how to make a crude weapon has exploded over the last 10, 15 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: This is a very frightening documentary that, hopefully, a lot of people will see. But, given what you know about all this, how scared should we really be that that could possibly happen?

NUNN: Well, putting it in perspective, Campbell, the chances of an all-out war between the United States and Russia has gone down tremendously.

So, in that respect, the world is safer. But the chances of an attack or an act of catastrophic nuclear terrorism, a small attack by another country, a rogue country, a war between India and Pakistan, all those dangers have gone up.

And this securing of nuclear material takes away -- if we can do it around the globe, it takes away the most important ingredient. And that is the raw material from which a nuclear terrorist -- catastrophic terrorist event would take place. Without highly enriched uranium, without plutonium, there's not going to be a catastrophic nuclear attack by a terrorist group.

BROWN: If terror groups like al Qaeda have been trying to get their hands on this material for a long time now, why haven't they succeeded?

NUNN: Well, when the Soviet Union broke up, I have to give the Russians a lot of credit and Ukrainians and people in Kazakhstan and the people in Belarus. They basically guarded that material pretty well.

We helped them with a program called Nunn-Lugar program. But, by and large, we dodged some very, very serious possibilities during the 1990s after the breakup of the Soviet empire. But, again, there's -- that's not just the only place for nuclear material. There are over 40 countries that have weapons-usable nuclear material.

And we have seen some of them in the last several days pledge to give those up. So, this is a global problem. It will take cooperation across the globe. And the focus on it in this very unusual summit meeting hopefully will greatly improve and reduce the dangers.

BROWN: Senator Sam Nunn, always appreciate your time, sir. Thank you very much for talking to us.

NUNN: Thank you, Campbell.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And coming up, fighting terror on the front lines. We're going to take you inside the counterterrorism team that is protecting al Qaeda's number-one U.S. target.

Plus, first lady Michelle Obama, how she is reshaping her image right before our eyes -- that and her surprise visit to Haiti still ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The latest now on the saga of that adopted boy who was sent back to Russia. The Tennessee woman who sent him back on an airplane, the 7-year-old boy, is still refusing to talk to authorities. But she could face child abandonment charges, we're learning.

Torry Hansen claims that she was misled about the boy's psychological problems. It is an extreme case, for sure, but statistics do show that many adoptions turn out, well, far from perfect. Families don't always live happily ever after.

And "Slate" magazine writer K.J. Dell'Antonia says she can relate. She actually admits she didn't love the little girl she adopted from China. And I spoke with her about what she initially went through with her new family earlier tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: K.J., a lot of us were just horrified at the thought of a mother shipping her adopted 7-year-old son back to Russia. You say, though, you understand, or you think you understand where she was coming from. Explain that to us.

K.J. DELL'ANTONIA, "SLATE": Campbell, adopting an older child, as opposed to a baby, is a process. And it can be a really painful one.

When I first brought home my adopted 3-year-old from China, it took her a long time to learn to love me, and it took me a long time to learn to love her. And when I read what Torry Hansen had done to her 7-year-old, I -- even with the horror of reading about that, I still couldn't help but understand what lengths she must have reached to go to that, to go to such extremes.

BROWN: But share with us, to try to give us a sense for what you were feeling a little bit of your story, what you were going through.

DELL'ANTONIA: Well, we adopted our daughter in -- last summer. So, she came home in July.

And for those first few weeks, I -- you know, I would -- I would look at her as she struggled or had a temper tantrum, or just -- I would just look at her and I would think, what have we done? What have we done to her? What have we done to us?

She would struggle to learn to be a sister to what we had presented to her as look, this is your new sister and your new brothers. And she would struggle. She would cry. She happened to have lived in a foster home. And she would call for her mommy. And she knew she didn't mean me, and I knew she didn't mean me.

And when she got me in the middle of the night, it was hard for me to see what that did to her. And, you know, I didn't feel like her mommy either. And I think that's a transition. It's -- it's -- affair.

BROWN: You wrote, though, that you -- and just I think these words are a little bit haunting -- that you didn't feel like you loved her. I mean, she didn't love you, but you didn't love her either.

DELL'ANTONIA: I didn't.

For the first few weeks or even months that she was home, I didn't feel like I loved her the way that I wanted to feel like I loved her. I didn't feel like I loved her at all. I felt like I was the mother at a playdate that would never end.

I -- there would be moments when I would look at her and say, when will your parents come and get you? And, of course, I am her parents. And I signed up to be her parents, and I wanted to her parent. But it took time to feel like her parent.

BROWN: I was struck by another line from your article. You write that even the best adoptive parent is just the cleanup crew. Explain what that means.

DELL'ANTONIA: Well, she was really destroyed by being taken from her loving foster family and adopted, which is supposed to be such a happy thing. And, of course, she was abandoned to begin with. It's not a happy beginning to any story. And when I -- it's simply true. Any -- even the best adoptive parent, even if I had been able to walk right into that room and, you know, love her with all my heart and soul right away, even the best adoptive parent is still going to be dealing with what has already happened.

BROWN: So, is it better now?

DELL'ANTONIA: It's absolutely better now.

BROWN: I got to ask you, finally, because you probably know better than anybody, I mean, what -- what needs to change, so that you don't have a situation like this again that we saw, you know, with this mother sticking this kid on the plane?

Is it because the system is broken, and there not -- there is not enough support there for you when you go through this process, or parents have screwed-up expectations about it? What is the biggest problem here?

DELL'ANTONIA: What needs to change is the way that we talk about it. We really romanticize adoption, and because we want it to be the happy ending for a child and for a family. We want it to be a happy ending right away.

And we need to talk about this in a different way. We need to talk about it as a process. We need to talk about learning to love our child and learning to be a family and becoming a family, as opposed to you're instantly home and it's immediately happily ever after.

And the more we talk about it, the better that's going to be for both adoptive families and for children.

BROWN: K.J., I have got to say, I just think your honesty is so powerful. Thank you for sharing your story with us in the context of all of this.

K.J. Dell'Antonia, best of luck to you and your family.

DELL'ANTONIA: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And still ahead: our exclusive look at New York's groundbreaking program to guard against nuclear terrorism.

Plus: the stunning transformation of first lady Michelle Obama -- how the woman once blasted as un-American is now the most popular political figure in Washington. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As President Obama today pressed world leaders to keep nuclear materials out of the hands of terrorists, his top counterterrorism adviser was pretty blunt about just how hard that job will actually be.

John Brennan says there is -- quote -- "indisputable evidence" that dozens of groups, particularly al Qaeda, have been after weapons of mass destruction for years. And number one on their strike list if they were to get them is New York City.

But New York has long been fighting back with its own counterterrorism unit. Tonight, we have three of New York's finest keeping the city safe

CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: John Brennan says there is, quote, "indisputable evidence that dozens of groups, particularly al Qaeda, have been after weapons of mass destruction for years." The number one on their strike list if they were to get them is New York City. But New York has long been fighting back with its own counterterrorism unit. Tonight, we have three of New York's finest keeping the city safe on land, at sea, and in the air.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAPTAIN MIKE RIGGIO (ph), NYPD COUNTERTERRORISM: In today's day and age, we can't wait for something to happen. We actually have to go out and try to find it first. My name is Captain Mike Riggio. I work in the NYPD counterterrorism division. I've been assigned here for about two and a half years. Our purpose is to kind of go out and be proactive and actually search for weapons or materials that can be used to make weapons. And specifically talking about radiological devices, a dirty bomb, or an improvised nuclear device. This vessel that we're in now actually has state-of-the-art radiological and nuclear detection capabilities.

We're worried about the ferry terminals. There's also a lot of critical infrastructure that's out of here, famous sights such as the Statue of Liberty, but also underwater tunnels, electric grids, sewage plants, and things like that. If you look at what happened on September 11th, just across this harbor here were our two buildings. And every day when you come out and you got to think, I got to put in 120 percent because if I don't, you know, there's a chance that the bad guys could get by us today. And we don't have the luxury of letting that happen.

KURT WIN (PH), NYPD COUNTERTERRORISM: I'm looking for dirt bomb. I'm looking for an improvised nuclear device that somebody is going to try to sneak into this city.

I'm detective Kurt Win (ph). I work in the Marine Services Unit.

UNKNOWN MALE: I could get to you and cover more ground with this equipment than a smaller unit on foot. WIN: Right now we're just checking a counterterrorism location, which happens to be the Coney Island train yards, the subway yards. This is where they house the subways when they're not in operation. So, we just give a good look, a nice sweep around this area, make sure nothing suspicious pops up.

UNKNOWN MALE: This green line that you see is the route, the flight path we took. Since it's green, it's normal radiation right here on the screen. If there's something, the screen will change collar. That tab would change color.

WIN: All of us, security at any of these locations are random. So, there is no set schedule, no set time, which makes it a much more secure.

ART MOGELL, NYPD COUNTERTERRORISM: The biggest worry is New York City getting hit again by a 9/11-type attack, because that's reality. That's a sense of reality. Every single day, there is something going on at some time. My name is Art Mogell (ph). I'm a lieutenant in the NYPD counterterrorism section. You're looking at a cover chokepoint and a Hercules deployment. The whole purpose of the cover chokepoint is rally kind of the deterrence and detection of rad nuke materials that terrorists could potentially bring into the city.

The Hercules teams are either intelligence-driven or done randomly all throughout the city. We have large detectors for radiation and nuclear devices built into vehicles. This whole vehicle is built to be a sensor. You have detectors that are in that boom. That boom can go up and down to try to help you pinpoint the source. And then you have the small devices, even the one I'm carrying right here which is RPRD. And we have everything in between.

I remember going down to the World Trace Center site that day and just looking at the hole in the ground that used to be thousands of people. I will never forget the fight. So, until we can all feel comfortable that it's put to rest.

(END VIDEOTAPE))

BROWN: These are just three of the one thousand New York City police officers risking their lives to keep the city safe from terror.

America's first lady wows Haiti and the world. But are we getting everything that she has to offer? How this former top executive is carefully mapping out her image. That story next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Michelle Obama is on her way to Mexico tonight after a surprise visit to Haiti. Landing in Port-au-Prince this morning, the first lady visited Haitian President Rene Preval and then took a helicopter tour of the city still shattered by January's devastating earthquake. The joint Haiti and Mexico visit is her first official solo trip as first lady. And another sign of just how much has changed for this Harvard-trained lawyer, once blasted as un-American. Tonight CNN's Jessica Yellin goes inside Mrs. Obama's remarkable transformation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JESSICA YELLIN, CNN NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Mrs. Obama began her trip with a surprise, a good will visit to Haiti. Next stop, Mexico, where she'll meet with the country's first lady, tour schools, and speak with youth leaders. Nothing controversial there, and some observers say that's just the point.

NAOMI WOLF, AUTHOR, "THE BEAUTY MYTH": She certainly learned from the mistakes of past first ladies and is playing some very -- placing some very safe bets.

YELLIN: More than a year into the job, CNN polling shows Mrs. Obama's favorable rating at 68 percent, higher than her husband. She seems to be doing something right.

WOLF: You know, she had very high negative numbers coming in. People were freaked out. Is it too feminist for the times, you know, the first African-American first lady. What she and her handlers have done is very strategically calm everybody down.

YELLIN: With her foreign travel, the first lady is taking a page out of Laura Bush's handbook, safe diplomacy to a friendly nation. So far in the job, Mrs. Obama seems more Laura Bush than Hillary Clinton, playing traditional female roles, mother.

MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: I approached the job first as a mother.

YELLIN: Big sister.

OBAMA: Mentoring has been something that has been important to me forever.

You're going to be the first ones to do it.

YELLIN: And keeper of the hearth and home, tending to her organic garden. The issues she has taken on, helping women balance home and work, opening the White House to Washington's low income kids.

OBAMA: This is your white house.

YELLIN: And fighting childhood obesity.

OBAMA: We're here because we all care deeply about the health and well-being of America's children.

YELLIN: Who could object to that? Above all, she is not stirring drama. Some say, the secret to her popularity as first lady is projecting that certain image.

WOLF: I'm a mom just like any mom in any suburb anywhere in America. I'm a middle class mom.

YELLIN (on-camera): It's an image that's made her one of the most popular first ladies in memory. But some wonder whether the traditional role she's chosen has overshadowed the real Michelle Obama. Jessica Yellin, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we are going to have more on the first lady's image right after the break. Why she may be playing down her modern working woman cred, and why America seems to love it?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: No doubt, first lady Michelle Obama has won the world over. But are we getting everything this fierce intellect has to offer? You saw the piece just a moment ago that Jessica Yellin reported on her first trip. And joining us to talk more about this right now is Lisa Caputo, former communications director to first lady Hillary Clinton and Naomi Woolf who's author and former adviser to Al Gore's presidential campaign also on women's issues. Welcome to you both.

WOLF: Thank you.

BROWN: Lisa, let me start with you, her schedule. We have the surprise trip to Haiti and then she is going to go to Mexico which is a safe choice, probably. Are you surprised by this first choice for her first solo trip?

LISA CAPUTO, FMR. CLINTON COMMUNICATIONS DIR.: No, I'm not. I think what she is doing is evolving her role. And I think that she's been very strategic about it, because remember, the president made a statement that it's time to reengage in the world due to everybody's mutual respect and mutual responsibilities that everybody has as an interconnected world. That plays to her because she is taking a message that she's had domestically to young people and taking it global. And going to young people and trying to get them engaged through their mutual responsibility to help build a better world. And that's why going to Haiti today I thought was very smart. It's the three-year anniversary of the earthquake.

She went to a safe place where young children who are without homes are getting mental advisory services. They're getting food, water, sports. She went to a high school that is being rebuilt. Remember, this is all about young people and kids. Ninety percent of the schools in Port-au-Prince were devastated. Forty percent in the surrounding areas outside of Port-au-Prince were devastated in terms of schools. So, this is really wrapped around her message to young people.

BROWN: But in parcel to that, and you have written about this too, there is not anything controversial for her and for the president in terms of how it would play around the country, for her to be in Haiti, for her to go to Mexico, right?

WOLF: Right. But isn't that exactly what she wants to do? I mean, Lisa would understand this very, very deeply. What her team clearly has done is learn from the mistakes of first ladies of the past. So, she avoided the Mrs. Reagan plutocracy messaging of the expensive clothes and the fabulous dinners that sent a message that I'm not like every mom out there. And she avoided Mrs. Clinton's steps. I actually think the team around Mrs. Clinton were largely brilliant, but --

CAPUTO: Thank you.

WOLF: But in many ways, pushing the boundaries of what a first lady is supposed to be doing appropriately. And so they're avoiding -- Mrs. Clinton kept stepping on mines and a minefield that then distracted from her husband's message. You know, what Michelle Obama isn't doing is creating headlines that in any way detract from the messaging that --

BROWN: This do no harm approach. But explain how it works? Because you have been on the inside.

WOLF: Yes.

BROWN: I mean, to what extent are you being managed in that role by the president's staff versus what you can say hey, you know what? This is what I want to do today. I mean, it's not that complicated.

CAPUTO: As Naomi said, she is supporting the president's message. And if you'll recall, Hillary Clinton played a similar role after health care failed in 1994. Hillary Clinton became a global ambassador around the world for women and girls.

BROWN: That was a good tour.

CAPUTO: It was a great tour for her. And I think it reshaped her image as a first lady and was very much reinforced the president's agenda. Similarly, if I can make a comparison with Michelle Obama, she is becoming a goodwill ambassador globally for youth around the world. Youth are connected more than they've ever been around issues like global warming and drugs and the environment.

And they're also engaging more at the community level, which is a passion of her. So, it's a perfect fit as an outgrowth of what she has been doing. But it also supports his larger agenda of hey, we all have a responsibility in the world to do our part, particularly, at the community level.

BROWN: But to Naomi's point, yes, she is trying to support, but you also don't want to make news sort of separate from that. So like, for example, Mexico, and Hillary Clinton did this when she was first lady. She spoke out about human rights in China. Laura Bush spoke out about women's rights in Afghanistan. She is in Mexico where the drug war is a nightmare? I mean, can you go to Mexico and not say something about it?

CAPUTO: Well, I think it will be interesting to see what she does. Again, her schedule as I've seen it is very focused on youth again. She is speaking at a university.

BROWN: Right. CAPUTO: She'll have a major address. I would wait to see what is in that address. She is visiting a school for low income children, and she is meeting with young leaders of nonprofits in Mexico City. But remember, Mexico and the U.S., there is a broader issue here of our, you know, our foreign relations between our two countries and two governments. I would watch with real careful eye what she says, because she will be reinforcing a message that the president wants to send to the government.

WOLF: But Lisa, isn't it unusual to have a Democrat or Democrat's spouse with any kind of message discipline of this kind? I mean, one is so used to seeing the Democrats veer off message. And to see her kind of being such a good soldier is remarkable.

BROWN: Let me ask you this -- is that because that democratic women are often -- there is pressure there to sort of be the feminist and be the working woman that she was prior to taking on the role of first lady?

WOLF: Now, I'm going to say something that may seem controversial. But I actually believe that the first lady role, and I hope soon the first gentleman role is one that people should do with an eye towards serving their country.

CAPUTO: And serving the president.

WOLF: And then serving a symbolic role.

CAPUTO: Right.

WOLF: Serving the president, serving the nation. You're sort of the mother of the nation or the father, you know, spouse of the nation, if there is ever a first guy. And it isn't an elected job. And so when Mrs. Clinton with all due respect was hands-on with health care policy, I'm a feminist and I was thinking I didn't vote for you. It was appropriate when she, you know, was a senator, when she was running --

BROWN: But not in that role.

WOLF: Not in that role.

BROWN: Guys, a much longer discussion, I know, but we're out of time. Many thanks. Lisa Caputo and Naomi wolf. Good to have you here.

Coming up. M squared, Mary Matalin and Roland Martin take on some of tonight's most talked about stories right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Time for M squared with two of our best, Mary Matalin and Roland Martin. once again, Mary and Roland are here tonight with their unique take on some of the most talked about stories of the day. Guys, what have you got?

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Campbell, thanks a bunch. I'm watching America Morning this morning, and they're teasing this story about the study regarding spanking and all of the sudden I'm watching it, and apparently a mom -- something about a mom, kid maybe more aggressive they spank him. Let's hear what the co-author of the study had to say, then we'll get into it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNKNOWN FEMALE: The children of those mothers that had been spanked more frequently at age 3 had much higher odds, 50 percent higher odds of being aggressive by the time they were age 5.

(ENDVIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: Man, give me a break.

MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Of course. Do you think there is a 3-year-old makes a rational connection between --

MARTIN: Yes.

MATALIN: Bad behavior and getting hit? No, they make a Pavlovian Connection which is aggression, violence. You ever spank a kid?

MARTIN: Absolutely.

MATALIN: Really?

MARTIN: Yes, I have. I spanked a kid, and I will spank a kid again. It's about discipline. You know, when the bible says spare the rod, spoil the child. I'm not spoiling a child. Act the fool, you don't listen to what somebody has to say, you will get spanked.

MATALIN: What the scripture meant was pay attention, be present for your children. It did not mean whack your kids around.

MARTIN: It's not whacking. It's a little tap on the bottom. Look, the bottom line is here, a lot of us grew up getting spanked. We turned out just fine.

MATALIN: Yes, that's a matter of dispute, you're just fine.

MARTIN: No. I'm just fine, but also, this study is talking about moms. That's why dads, go ahead and spank your kids. The study deals with moms.

MATALIN: No, no. Do you know what works is when your mother says wait until your father gets home.

MARTIN: That's right, because you know what's going to happen.

MATALIN: It's anticipating all this like confession without the benefits.

MARTIN: And that still will whip you behind when you get home.

MATALIN: The most you'll get out of your kids is positive reinforcement. Try it sometime.

MARTIN: No, I'm not trying that.

MATALIN: Try a little positive reinforcement.

MARTIN: The only time mother ever visited in my house was a time-out between walking to the room and getting the belt and coming back. That's the only one that worked.

MATALIN: This explains a lot about you. All right. Let's move on to another story. You're absolutely insane about another football story. Big Ben, another indiscretion. My beloved saints have to wear a suit on the plane when they fly.

MARTIN: And all the teams have to do that. I get that.

MATALIN: All right. Because it's a decorum thing. Mr. Benson provides a mass or service before the games, it's a team, it's decorum. Now Big Ben, second charge, not charged, who would want to be charged --

MARTIN: The first one was a civil lawsuit. They say that, you know, frankly wasn't enough to even charge him. This time, he was, you know, alleged to have committed a sexual assault. Wasn't charged. Now, the NFL has this rule.

MATALIN: He followed her into the bathroom.

MARTIN: OK. We don't know what happened in the bathroom, the bottom line he didn't get charged, but here's my whole point, the NFL has a rule that says even if you don't get charged, they can suspend you for conduct detrimental, whatever to the league. The issue I simply have is, you know, you're being punished for something that wasn't -- that wasn't illegal. You weren't charged. There was no trial. And how fair is that when you didn't -- get in trouble, but you might be suspended?

MATALIN: Because it's Roger Goodell's, it's the commissioner's job to keep a level of respect and decorum about this game. We have so few heroes left.

MARTIN: Right.

MATALIN: You represent your team, you represent the league, you represent your city, you represent your fans. Followed her into the bathroom. That's enough of a charge for me.

MARTIN: No it's not.

MATALIN: Yes it is.

MARTIN: Oh, come on. OK, look, he might be a freak. We don't know exactly what happened in the bathroom, but the point is --

MATALIN: I'm not calling him a freak. That's just an indiscreet thing to tag your whole team with. I'm sorry. You have responsibilities.

MARTIN: I understand that, but again though, so if you did something or were accused of something, how would you feel if a boss suspended you and you weren't even charged? How would you feel?

MATALIN: If I knew the rules were to be discreet, I would be discreet and represent my company and my teammates and my city.

MARTIN: Everyone is discreet, but I understand your point. All right. Now, you talk about being discreet. How about being stupid? Here we have United States census. We have U.S., but we're actually counting.

MATALIN: We could go anywhere how about stupid.

MARTIN: But actually we're counting Americans.

MATALIN: That's a good thing.

MARTIN: Every ten years is constitutional.

MATALIN: That's right.

MARTIN: We got a photo here, though, of some of the hats and shirts and things like that. These products --

MATALIN: Stylish.

MARTIN: Were not made in the U.S. The Chicago Tribune has a story -- actually the Chicago "Sun-Times" a piece that some of these products came from china, Bangladesh and other places. Come on, if we're going to count Americans, can we at least have something made in the USA?

MATALIN: I take your point.

MARTIN: Please!

MATALIN: $340 million for those hats? Come on and t-shirts.

MARTIN: Now, you know, I like looking good, but I agree with you.

MATALIN: Yes! You would never put that on.

MARTIN: I would put the hat on.

MATALIN: Ten questions, ten minutes. Still it up. Do your sense of -- I'm not sure this goes under the category of government waste to me, whoever is making those stylish shirts. How is $340 million worth of a mini-stimulus package not spent in this country going to motivate people to do what they should be doing in anyways.

MARTIN: But Mary, if you own the hat and T-shirt business, you love that contract. I'm simply saying if we're going to do this kind of deal, can we at least buy American?

MATALIN: If American unions did not distort the markets. MARTIN: Oh stop it.

MATALIN: Oh really? Have you bought an American-made T-shirt?

MARTIN: OK. Is everything about a union to you?

MATALIN: No, I am a steelworker union.

MARTIN: Okay.

MATALIN: I am a member. I am a card-carrying union member. I love the unions. They distort the market.

MARTIN: I'm not saying unions. I'm just simply saying can we buy American?

MATALIN: But you would have to have government ways at least make it stylish. How about that? Why don't you be the government clothes waste designer?

MARTIN: No, trust me, I don't know if they can afford a brother. But you would never see that look, ever, on this head or anybody else's head.

MATALIN: All right. Good night, all.

BROWN: Thanks, guys.

And when we come back, an uplifting afternoon with Haiti's littlest victims reminds us why we can't forget.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we mentioned earlier, first lady Michelle Obama made a surprise visit to Haiti today to tour the earthquake's devastation. One of her first stops, the children's place, a safe haven where some 900 kids take part in art therapy each day, and another 2,000 are fed. Surrounded by dozens of smiling faces, a beaming first lady laugh, danced, slapping high-fives everywhere she turned, and the kids giggled and sang and high-fived back, reminding us all why we can't forget the many victims of the Haiti earthquake. That's it for us. We'll see you tomorrow. Larry King starts right now.