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Campbell Brown
Texas Textbook Hearing Heats Up; President Slams Arizona Immigration Law
Aired May 19, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, everybody. You are looking right now behind me at a live picture of the White House tonight where the president and first lady are hosting a glittering state dinner inside for Mexico's first couple. But the day began with both presidents side by side in an extraordinary moment both blasting Arizona's tough immigration law. So, is this country's policy on immigration giving us a black eye internationally? I'll ask former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright tonight in an exclusive interview.
Also, tonight, we begin a special series "America's schools in crisis." We take a look at the problems our schools are facing from massive budget cuts across the country to the debate over what we teach our children. We'll cover the showdown in Texas tonight about textbooks that critics say white wash history.
And in Chicago, the controversy over what to do with kids in failing schools and then later the story people are buzzing about tonight. John Travolta and Kelly Preston announce that they are expecting a baby. He is 56. She is 47. Are American moms and dads getting older and older? We're going to talk about that as well, but we begin with our number one story.
The fireworks in the Texas textbook battle. At a hearing before the Texas Board of Education today, more than 200 people argued over the proposed changes to the state's social studies curriculum. Changes like renaming the slave trade the Atlantic triangular trade and replacing the word capitalism with free-enterprise system. The state is one of the largest buyers of textbooks in the country. So, there are fears that as Texas goes, so goes the nation. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN TODD JEALOUS, NAACP PRESIDENT AND CEO: Let's tell the truth as it was. Not as we want to remember it to be.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The far right faction of this state board has demonstrated their willingness to undermine the quality of our children's education and drag our classroom into the culture wars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wayne Christian from center backed the changes that the predominantly Republican Board of Education wants to make. WAYNE CHRISTIAN, (R) TEXAS STATE SENATE: The arguments that are going around are evident that there have been legitimate questions raised. They're being discussed. They're being debated and they're being answered. We have seen an expansion in standards of minorities by a significant portion while the debate says that there always should be more. That's the debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Rod page who was George W. Bush's first education secretary today urged the Texas board to delay voting on the new textbooks charging that it was allowing ideology to define the curriculum. Their proposed overhaul would affect language on everything from civil rights to communism to whether church and state were really meant to be separate and that is only the beginning. Tom Foreman starts us off with a closer look at a local battle that could affect kids nationwide.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is about a basic question. What do we want in textbooks when we are teaching young people about this country? Does it tilt liberal or conservative or stay in the middle and right now the battleground is Texas.
UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE: Save our history! Save it now!
FOREMAN (voice-over): In Austin, heated words. The state school board is in hearings over the content of new textbooks and some conservative board members want it moved to the right. For example, since textbooks include sections on democratic president Franklin Roosevelt's new deal which expanded government, they also want a favorable light shined on Ronald Reagan's vision of a smaller government and the political power surge by conservative groups. Don McLeroy is leading the charge.
DON MCLEROY, TEXAS SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER: What we have is the history profession that experts seem to have a left wing tilt. And so, what we were doing is trying to restore some balance to the standards.
FOREMAN: More examples of what those board members have wanted, out. Too much talk about Thomas Jefferson and the enlightenment which stressed reasoning and science over faith, in. More recognition of the contributions of religious leaders like Moses to American ideals, out. Calling the U.S. government democratic like the party, in. Calling it a constitutional republic, out. Capitalism which some board members fear has been turned into a dirty word, in, free enterprise.
FOREMAN (on-camera): And on it goes with these board members wanting more prays for conservative icons like Phyllis Schlafly, the leadership qualities of confederate general stone wall Jackson, and even the cultural value of country music.
FOREMAN (voice-over): Not all these measures have survived but even the discussion has many more liberal Texans furious.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not fair for public school students to have the personal and political ideologies and agendas of the conservative of state board members crammed down their throat and into their textbooks.
FOREMAN (on-camera): All of this matters because it's almost 5 million students. Texas buys a lot of textbooks and that helps push publishers in terms of what they make available for all the rest of us. Electronic publishing is mitigating that factor just a little bit, but for the time being as Texas schools go in large part, so go the rest of the nation's schools, and right now, Texas seems set on going to the right.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: All right. That was CNN's Tom Foreman reporting for us.
And joining me right now from Austin is Kathy Miller of the Texas Freedom Network. She is among the leading critics of the proposed changes. And on the other side of the debate, Jonathan Saenz of the Liberty Institute with us here as well. And Kathy, let me start with you. I know you and your group attended every state board meeting for 15 years. What changes in the curriculum concern you the most and is there a trend that you're observing here?
KATHY MILLER, TEXAS FREEDOM NETWORK: There are a number of changes that concern us. Why we can't describe America as a Democracy? Why board members deny that the separation of church and state is a fundamental principle in our constitution? Why they want to say about reformers like Susan B. Anthony or Ida D. Wells who were exposed the KKK blanching (ph) campaign that they were obsessed with oppression and somehow too negative? These are all really important questions, but the trend is that this state board would rather put politics ahead of what teachers from our classrooms and experts from our colleges and universities say our kids need to be ready for the 21st century.
BROWN: So, Jonathan, how do you respond to that that in a way this curriculum is just getting it wrong?
JONATHAN SAENZ, LIBERTY INSTITUTE: Nothing could be further from the truth. The reality is there've been so many parents, teachers, professors, and experts in the state of Texas that testified today supporting the standards. And I got to clean something up here. This whole Thomas Jefferson myth thing that has been rolled out for two months, you know, there were people saying that Thomas Jefferson had been removed. I got some news from people. I found Thomas Jefferson.
He's in three different sections in our history and social studies standards that's in grade five and grade eight. He's in two places in the U.S. government, and by the way, the declaration of independence that he wrote is referenced over 25 times in the standards. This is a clear example of how the other side used him as a pawn. BROWN: Jonathan, let's talk about that because there are specific examples. The new curriculum would rename the slave trade as the Atlantic triangular trade. Why in the world would you want to do that?
SAENZ: Look, that was talk about today in that same section they talk about slavery, and so, there are many of --
BROWN: Just answer that question, why would you rename it that? I mean that sounds ludicrous to me.
SAENZ: Well, the reality is in that section, they talk about slavery. Regardless of what someone has decided to name it. I don't think --
BROWN: Kind of we've all -- slavery seemed to have worked for most of us in terms of how you define it for many, many years now. Why do you feel a need to rename it?
SAENZ: Look, slavery is talked about so many different times. This is a clear example of another semantic. They're trying to knip knick (ph) little different words. They're --
BROWN: That's knip knicking (ph)? Changing the definition of slavery?
MILLER: And how about Democracy.
SAENZ: You're skewing it yourself. The definition of slavery hasn't been changed. Slavery has mentioned numerous different times in the standards. You know, talk about the separation of church and state being in the constitution, it's nowhere in the constitution. I'm a constitutional lawyer, myself. It's not in the constitution. When they were debating the first amendment, they never used the phrase separation of church and state for their official meetings on that issue and that's why people are standing up, constitutional lawyers (INAUDIBLE) who is an expert.
MILLER: Jonathan, Jonathan, checks and balances aren't in the constitution. The separation of powers and Democracy is missing from the curriculum.
BROWN: Guys, stand by because I want to get into some of the more specifics here and have both of you respond. I want to get in a quick break, though. We'll be back with more from Jonathan and Kathy miller right after the break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We are talking about some controversial changes that are being suggested for textbooks in the state of Texas and back with me right now to talk about it is Kathy Miller and Jonathan Saenz. And guys, I'm going to correct myself a little bit here and maybe I didn't give you enough credit, Jonathan, when were having this discussion before the break because one of the producers looked specifically at the proposed language in curriculum and what it actually says, for example, in eighth grade economics, it says students are expected to quote "explain reasons for the development of the plantation system, the Atlantic triangular trade and the spread of slavery."
So, it does -- it's not like as though, which I think, Kathy, your group has sort of pushed the idea, that they're replacing the idea of slavery with something else and it's not quite that clear cut, is it?
SAENZ: That's right. And this is something that's been going along all the time for the past year and a half on this issue. And what's not being talked about is some of the things that happened early on. You know, Kathy's group is saying send it back to the teachers and let them start from -- and you know what, let's talk about what those teachers did. They took Christmas out of the standards. They took Neil Armstrong out of the standards. They took Albert Einstein out of the standards. They took Independence Day and Veterans Day out of some sections.
Is that the people, that group we want to send the standards back to? I don't think so. The state board corrected those mistakes, and we've been able to move forward in that. And what I think is going on is there's really not much left to talk about and so the other side just wants to delay and obstruct the process because we've actually got a good balanced product that's been scrutinized and been criticized and now has been refined over a year and a half.
BROWN: All right. Hold on. Let me like Kathy get in here. Kathy, just respond to the general idea that there are clearly conservatives on the board who want to get more of their point of view in the curriculum without question and what is wrong with the idea of teaching kids about who some of the conservative leaders are and incorporating these people into historical record. Aren't our children, I guess, smart enough to be able to understand everything and encompass it all and make up their own minds ultimately.
MILLER: I have absolutely no objection with including conservative leaders and liberal leaders. I don't think that our curriculum standards should be about the political left or the political right. I think they should be about what our kids need to be successful in college and the jobs of the future. And Jonathan is being very disingenuous to suggest that somehow the teachers and the experts get it wrong. 1,200 historians have signed a letter telling this board that the curriculum will not prepare Texas students for college. I think this board should at least acknowledge that maybe it's worth a second look.
BROWN: And Jonathan --
MILLER: I don't understand.
BROWN: Yes, I mean, don't we have to give our historians and our professors the final say on what it supposed to be in this curriculum?
SAENZ: Look, plenty of professors have waited on this and many of them are saying what we are saying. Take a final vote. And actually, our state historian, his name is Jesus Delateha (ph). He talked about this with me. He said women, minority, religion, all of that is covered fairly in our standards. And so, you know, this is our state historian who is one of the handpicked six experts to talk about this and is a renowned history professor in our state. There's an expert right there.
A couple of experts and professors talked today and said some of the same things. So, there's plenty of experts supporting the standards.
BROWN: A story that we will continue to follow. Kathy and Jonathan, appreciate both of your time tonight. Thank you for joining us.
MILLER: Thank you for having me.
SAENZ: Thank you.
BROWN: And when we come back, John Travolta and his wife, 47- year-old, Kelly Preston, are expecting a baby. More and more older women are doing it. Is 40 the new 20? But up next, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Find out what she thinks about the president of Mexico slamming Arizona's new immigration law. That's right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our number one political story tonight, a tough question for Michelle Obama and it came from a second grader. Listen to what happened when the first lady visited a DC area school today with Mexican first lady, Margarita Zavala, and the topic turned to immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED KID: My mom said - my mom saw Barack Obama. My mom said that, I think that she says that Barack Obama is taking everybody away that doesn't have papers.
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, that's something that we have to work on, right? To make sure that people can be here with the right kind of papers, right? That's exactly right.
UNIDENTIFIED KID: But my mom doesn't have any papers.
OBAMA: Yes, we have to work on that. We have to fix that. And that everybody has to work together in Congress to make sure that that happens. That's right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A school spokesman says the district will not reveal the girl's identity saying that officials are legally prohibiting from asking students about their immigration status or giving out the information to others. An immigration was a big flash point between the two presidents at the White House. And interesting scene as President Obama welcomed Mexican president, Felipe Calderon, standing together both men trashed Arizona's controversial new immigration law. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The United States of America no law abiding person be they an American citizen, a legal immigrant or a visitor or tourist from Mexico should ever be subject to suspicion simply because of what they look like.
FELIPE CALDERON, PRESIDENT OF MEXICO: We oppose firmly the SB 1070 Arizona law given in fair principles that are partial and discriminatory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: President Obama has called for an overhaul of the nation's immigration laws, but right now, does he have the political clout to make that happen? Madeleine Albright was Secretary of State during the Clinton administration, and she joins me right now from Washington.
Madame Secretary, so good to see you. What have your thoughts been as you watch the debate over Arizona's immigration law play out in the last month especially as an immigrant yourself?
MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FMR. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's great to be with you, Campbell. As an immigrant, I find this issue a very difficult one. Nothing is more important in my life than having become an American. And this country has been built on many, many immigrants contributing everything that we can to the greatness of this country, and I definitely agree with President Obama when he says that the system at the moment is broken.
And I think it puts a very difficult situation in terms of our relations with our close neighbor, Mexico. It clearly is a very difficult issue both in terms of foreign and domestic policy.
BROWN: So, explain though, and I want to get into the impact it does have around the world but why? You look at the polling and it does seem like a majority of Americans do back the measure. What do you think is driving this attitude?
ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, I'm not a pundit, so I really can't answer some of the political part of this, but I think that always in a period when there are economic difficulties that people try to find some way to find somebody who is to blame, but I think actually if one looks at the history of America, it has been strengthened by people coming from overseas and literally contributing their blood, sweat, and tears to the building of this great country.
So, I hope very much that we cannot have an approach or a law in one state that, in fact, reflects on the feelings of the whole country because my sense is that this is not something that is overwhelming. Most Americans are immigrant. And so, I think that we have to get a system that is fair for people and have an open and fair immigration policy and be a country of laws that we are.
BROWN: But as you said, you know, it's not just about Arizona when you look at how it may be playing to the rest of the world. They see this as something that America has done as opposed to just a state in America, don't you think? And is it not just Mexico that is deeply concerned about this, but how does it play with the rest of the international community?
ALBRIGHT: It doesn't play well, but I have to tell you, Campbell, one of the issues just generally around the world are immigration policies. I find this in other places. I just spent an awful (ph) lot of time in Europe working on this project about a new strategic concept for NATO, and there are people coming in from a variety of countries and it is a big issue. We're a very mobile world. But I think America has been known for being the beacon of freedom and the statue of liberty and give me your tired and your hungry and so I think it's sad. I think a lot of people do understand that it is just one state, and they are looking to Congress and the president to rectify it.
BROWN: Let me change focus and I want to ask you about something that you have devoted a lot of time too lately. You are testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee tomorrow on the need for a new strategy for NATO. And this is, of course, the 28-country military alliance that the U.S. has been part of for 61 years. In a word -- you can't do it in a word, but what, if you can narrow it down, what in your view really needs to change here?
ALBRIGHT: This is an alliance that was set up originally to fight the Soviet Union. And the Soviet Union is not our enemy, and yet, there are a huge number of problems internationally. Fighting terrorism, nuclear proliferation, cybersecurity, energy security, and we need a lot of friends in terms of dealing with those kinds of issues and so what we are doing is trying to make NATO an alliance for the 21st century. And looking forward and seeing how to make sure that the basic countries that are member of NATO feel safe and secure. And also that we can work outside of the area in order to protect all of us against these global threats.
BROWN: But how do you do this, I guess, when -- I know your report found that many allies aren't confident right now that NATO could come to their defense in a real crisis situation. So, how do you modernize the thinking given the new threats you just pointed out?
ALBRIGHT: First of all, we do have to give assurance to the countries of NATO itself. We talked about that that if there's an attack on one, there's an attack on all. That is the whole collective defense aspect of this. But at the same time, I think people need to understand the new generation that there are threats coming from outside and that they are better dealt with by an alliance of common values and that there's not a discrepancy between protecting the territory of the NATO members themselves and also working outside, but we have to persuade people that NATO is the greatest alliance that can be both military and political and protect the people of all our countries.
BROWN: Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Madame Secretary, always good to talk to you. I really appreciate your time tonight. Thanks for being with us.
ALBRIGHT: Great to be with you, Campbell. Thank you. >
BROWN: And coming up next, John Travolta's wife, Kelly Preston, says she is pregnant at age 47. And not just in Hollywood, more and more women getting pregnant later and later. We're going to talk about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The number one buzz story tonight, Bret Michaels' first television interview since the brain hemorrhage that nearly killed him. The Poison frontman and reality TV star sat down with Oprah Winfrey and told her that he's still having headaches but that he is on the mend.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET MICHAELS, MUSICIAN: It puts things in perspective real quickly. You instantly put into your life what matters the most at that time. People say this happens, but it's really happened to me. It is your immediate family, your kids, your best friends, and at that point, you're not thinking about anything else.
OPRAH WINFREY, HOST: Now, we notice when we saw you lying in the hospital bed with all of the wires and tubes and anything, you still had you your bandana.
MICHAELS: It is like Superman without the cape.
(LAUGHING)
MICHAELS: I said if I'm going out, I want to go out rocking.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: You got to love that picture.
Tonight, some good news for the Travolta family. John Travolta and his wife, Kelly Preston, announced that they are going to have a baby. This is one year after their 16-year-old son, Jett, tragically died. Now, she is 47 years old. He is 56. And this is a trend that we are seeing more and more of. But is there a downside to older women and men having children?
And joining us right now to talk about some of the stuff, Dr. Jamie Grifo is the program director of New York University's Fertility Center and psychotherapist, Robi Ludwig who is a contributor for care.com. Welcome to both of you. Dr. Grifo, we all know that it is a lot harder to get pregnant the older we get, and at 47, obviously you don't know the details of Kelly Preston's pregnancy but explain to us what scientifically possible, feasible given the age of a 47-year- old woman who's trying to get pregnant?
DR. JAMIE GRIFO, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY FERTILITY CTR.: Well, it's very possible for a 47-year-old to get pregnant but it's highly unlikely. And I think that's an important message because we see a lot of these older couples achieving pregnancy and we think we can plan our lives around when I'm ready I'll have a baby, but fertility dramatically declines. At age 30, you go to age 40, it's cut in half. But at 42 it's cut in half again. You go to 44, it's cut in half again. And probably less than five, or three or five percent of patients at age 47 will have to spontaneously (ph) conceive. And even if you use assisted reproduction, like IVF, very low success rates over the age of 45 less than two percent of cycles result in delivery. So very limited.
BROWN: So what's the -- given the statistics, the most likely scenario for her would be?
GRIFO: Well, I wouldn't speculate. And it's really their business. I mean, it's possible they had a spontaneous conception. It's possible they did egg donor. And now it's even possible maybe 12 years ago she froze her eggs and saved them to get pregnant at a later age when those young eggs work much better even though she's older.
BROWN: So I was going to say, it's not really it's not her age, it's the age of the egg.
GRIFO: The age of the egg at the time.
BROWN: So if we are talking about donated eggs for a 47-year-old woman, then carrying through with the pregnancy is not the challenge as much as the eggs, correct?
GRIFO: Getting pregnant with old eggs is much more difficult and younger eggs give you a much better chance.
BROWN: So you see these images -- and I'm going to bring you into this in one second, Robi -- but of all of these older -- I think celebrities in particular because they're plastered on the magazines of Halle Berry over 40. Look, I had my kids late in life, too, so I'm by no means critical in any way. Marcia Cross. But you say it can sort of send the wrong message, I think, to a lot of women that oh, yes, you can as you sort of referenced earlier wait and they're may be not doing it by, you know, traditional means, I guess, and you really can't. Is that what you're trying to say?
GRIFO: Well, you have to careful. You can't assume fertility and I think we all do. And until you get treated for infertility, you don't really understand how devastating that can be and how difficult that can be. So you want to be thoughtful about your life especially as a woman because you have limits and you better know them and make good decisions around them.
BROWN: So talk about -- let's say the science is there.
ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes. BROWN: That there has been -- I've been reading it today, sort of this debate about, well, should you even if it's possible, have a child if you're 47 years old and your husband is 56 years old.
LUDWIG: Why not? You know, if you have the ability to love a child and you're financially able, it might be a really good time to have a child. Maybe you're professionally stable or you really are ready to focus on raising a child and focus on that child. So I think it's a wonderful thing if you can have a healthy child and there's the means to do it.
BROWN: So is this the trend you were sort of headed in this direction, a nation of older parents where, you know, I guess 70 is the new 50 here?
LUDWIG: Well, men have always had that option. And now women have that option if they plan in advance. In fact, I was just asking Jamie, you know, if f my daughter wants to plan in advance, she's 7. I'm thinking ahead for her. The thing is if she wanted an option to have children later, to pursue her career, when should she freeze her eggs? And that's an option. It's an option for women to make all different choices about when they want to be a parent.
BROWN: Do you see a lot of women doing this now? Or it has like, our mentality has changed?
GRIFO: Freezing their eggs? Well, I think in New York there's a lot of women delaying child bearing and they're aware of the risk that they take with their fertility and a lot of them are, you know, having this insurance policy of freezing their eggs --
BROWN: Right.
GRIFO: -- so that they can be their own egg donor down the line if their eggs don't work at the time they try.
LUDWIG: And I just want to say, too, you know, having a child, you have to be emotionally ready and not everybody is emotionally ready when they're biologically ready.
BROWN: Right. All right, we've got to end it there. But Robi, Dr. Grifo, appreciate it. Thanks so much.
Coming up, the kids are good. The schools are not. We are going to go to Chicago to see if the government's new public school fixes are actually working. Right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our number one international story tonight, Bangkok has turned into a war zone after days and days of protests. The Thai military today rolled in tanks and opened fire on protesters in a bloody crackdown that ended only when the anti-government protesters surrendered. "The New York Times" said it best that Bangkok has been, quote, "brought to its knees."
Our coverage comes from CNNI.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clashes between the Thai government and Red Shirt protesters reached a boiling point on Wednesday. At least five people lost their lives in a massive offensive on the protesters. Riots then throughout the city made the Thai capital look like a war zone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It became clear the Red Shirts were operating a scorched policy setting more than a dozen buildings ablaze including Thailand's biggest shopping mall. Incendiary politics of Thailand have ended a new and grave face. The government implies ousted Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is to blame for these scenes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Thailand's prime minister says he is confident that peace will be restored.
Coming up, closing down dropout factories. A special report on the government's new plan to fix failing schools. But first, here's Kate Bolduan with a look at some of the other stories we are following tonight -- Kate.
KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there, Campbell. Well, some disturbing new video tonight from the Louisiana marshlands. Thick, heavy oil has started to pollute the state's sensitive wetlands. A local official said everything the oil blankets will die. The state's governor describes the situation as a spreading cancer. BP said today the cleanup efforts from the gulf spill have made a measurable difference.
And it's the season of the twister. Take a look at this dramatic video from Oklahoma. It was shot from a helicopter hovering over the town of Hennessey, Oklahoma. Amazing to look at. This is what's known as a white tornado because it didn't kick up any dust or debris from the ground. No injuries or major damage was reported fortunately.
And the mayor of Los Angeles tonight rejected a warning from Arizona utilities that they could cut off power to L.A. should the city go ahead with its boycott of Arizona. A quarter of L.A.'s electricity comes from Arizona power plants. The utilities threatened to pull the plug unless the city reconsiders its boycott over Arizona's new immigration law.
And the White House is hoping for a scandal-free state dinner this time around. Tonight, Mexican President Felipe Calderon and his wife are being honored with all the glitz and glamour these events are famous for. Roughly 200 people are on the guest list and before you ask, Campbell, the gate crashers, the Salahis, it's safe to say they were not invited. And, yes, I do believe my invitation was lost in the mail.
BROWN: Mine too. All right. Kate, appreciate it. Thank you very much.
When we come back, good kids caught up in bad schools. Tonight, our special series "America Schools in Crisis." Shutting down schools that don't work sounds like a good idea, but what do you do with the students? We're going to explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: They are called dropout factories and they are the worst of our nation's failing schools. So what do you do with them?
Tonight, we begin a special series on "America Schools in Crisis." The Obama administration is spending $4 billion to try to improve bad schools. To qualify for the funding, districts have these options: to close the school, send the students to a better one, fire the teachers, change principals or turn the school over to a charter operation. It's a page out of education secretary Chicago's playbook and Soledad O'Brien went to Arne Duncan's old district to see how some of these solutions have played out there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Every year, Chicago marks the start of school with one of the biggest annual parades in the country. In 2008, Jordan Norwood was named king of the parade for being a model student.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jordan, did you do your homework?
JORDAN NORWOOD: No.
O'BRIEN: Just two years ago, Jordan was academic royalty, but today he's struggling. One reason, his schools keep closing down.
JOSEPHINE NORWOOD, MOTHER: They really don't know the really true impact that it does to a family, to a child, to a parent that wants her child to succeed.
Have a good day. Love you.
O'BRIEN: It's a story of good intentions and unintended consequences.
Timothy Knowles is the director of Chicago's urban education institute.
TIMOTHY KNOWLES, URBAN EDUCATION INSTITUTE: Children were in schools which had been failing for generations and the district made a sensible decision to close them. However, they were surrounded by equally failing schools and some of the children were transferred into those schools.
O'BRIEN: Not just some. There were was no district policy requiring that students from shuttered schools be transferred to better schools, so they weren't. Most ended up in equally bad schools with predictable results. And yet the Chicago plan could be a model for the nation.
ARNE DUNCAN, EDUCATION SECRETARY: We have closed schools for academic failure when we needed to do that. Those are not easy decisions to make.
O'BRIEN: President Barack Obama wanted an education secretary who wasn't afraid to take radical, even controversial action to improve schools. He got that with Arne Duncan, the Chicago district's former CEO.
(on camera): So you say you have to do something dramatic. Close a school considered dramatic?
DUNCAN: Marginal change is not the solution.
O'BRIEN (voice-over): In the seven years he ran the district, Duncan shut down dozens of struggling schools.
(on camera): You got some flak when research came out that the kids who have been sent when the schools closed to another school, went to an equally crappy school.
DUNCAN: When you go from one low performing school to marginally better, yes, you're not going to have big benefits.
O'BRIEN (voice-over): So Duncan shifted his policy but tried something equally dramatic. He called it turnaround. Duncan started turnarounds in earnest in 2006 with Sherman Elementary, a school that was in real need of help. Ask any parent.
LADONNA BREWER, MOTHER: There was no stability with the kids, the learning. And my kids were bringing home good grades but they weren't being taught.
O'BRIEN (on camera): Describe for me exactly what was done in Sherman. You closed the school.
DUNCAN: Children stayed. Came with another team of phenomenal teachers, principals, who just had a real commitment.
O'BRIEN (voice-over): In other words, Duncan fired almost every adult at Sherman and with the help of a nonprofit academy for urban school leadership brought in a new principal, new union teachers and staff.
LIONELL ALLEN, SHERMAN PRINCIPAL: Gentlemen, make sure your shirts are tucked in.
O'BRIEN: Principal Lionell Allen took the job when he was just 28.
(on camera): Do you feel that the school has been successful?
ALLEN: We know we can't crown ourselves, you know, champions in a sense. We are not where we want to be but happy with the progress that we've made so far. O'BRIEN: Sherman's hallways are orderly and attendance is up. Test scores, too. Still, only a little over half its students pass the state test.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You got one.
O'BRIEN: But Secretary Duncan says the change at Sherman is proof turnarounds work.
DUNCAN: Same children. Same poverty. Unfortunately, same violence in the community. In three or four short years, the number of students meeting state standards has basically doubled. Does it take going way beyond the call of duty? Absolutely. But it is also absolutely possible.
O'BRIEN: The district is in the process of turning around dozens of schools and while they're still closing schools, they're closing fewer. And for Lionell Allen at the turnaround school of Sherman, the turnaround was just the beginning. He soon discovered there was a larger and more daunting problem ahead.
In America, Soledad O'Brien, CNN, Chicago.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The new CEO of Chicago public schools revised this policy this year. If the district closes schools, students must be sent to a better school. Tomorrow, we're going to take a close look at the epidemic of suspensions in the Chicago public schools, how a school in one of the city's toughest neighborhoods is trying a new alternative that seems to be helping kids who normally would have just been kicked out of class.
But coming up next, hopefully some answers. We're going to put two education pioneers to the test. Bill Bennett and Geoffrey Canada tackle a big question. What is the one thing that would turnaround our failing schools?
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BROWN: The nation's broken schools. Do you just close bad ones or try to save them and make them better? And most importantly, what about the kids?
Earlier I spoke with Geoffrey Canada who is president and CEO of Harlem Children's Zone, and CNN contributor Bill Bennett, who did serve as education secretary in the Reagan administration. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Geoffrey, let me start with you here. In the piece that viewers just saw, Chicago moved a child between failing schools and that was supposed to help him and it actually ended up hurting him because it caused so much disruption. Does that show that when we try something new in our schools sometimes that we are ultimately carrying out an experiment of sorts on our kids?
GEOFFREY CANADA, PRES., CEO, HARLEM CHILDREN'S ZONE: Well, I think that under some circumstances you would say, well, the experiment hurt this particular child and maybe some other kids and should we do it? But here's what -- here's what I got from that piece.
The idea was to send this child from a failing school into a better school. There were no better schools. The schools were lousy. So where you have a situation where all the schools are lousy, we have a real crisis.
BROWN: Bill, Arne Duncan who, of course, is now the secretary of education, came up with this alternate plan to keep failing schools open but replace them with new teachers and administrators. Do you think that that should be kind of a nationwide model?
WILLIAM BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, maybe. It all depends. I agree very much with Geoffrey. There's no point in continuing to do the same things over and over again that have failed and expect anything other than massive failure. Try things that work. The only thing I'd say different from Geoffrey and it doesn't disagree but I hope he will regard as heading on is we do have some sense of what works. What he has done has worked. The Harlem Village Academy with (INAUDIBLE) has worked. The KIPP schools worked.
It's not as if we're operating in some arcane part of, you know, human existence discovery on some foreign planet. These are our children. We do have some sense of how to educate them, how to hold people accountable in schools for their education. And we have learned some things.
BROWN: So, Geoffrey, what is it? What's the secret sauce? I mean, there's so much focus on getting rid of bad teachers. Explain to us is that the key in your view? Is finding good teachers and how do you define what a good teacher is and how did you find them for Harlem Children's Zone?
CANADA: I think, Campbell, that you hit on a lot of the keys. I think all of us in education understand that your workforce, the people who produce the children are the teachers. And the ability to find good teachers and retain those teachers and make sure those teachers are delivering I think is the key to our schools getting better. When you have systems that it is impossible to judge teachers because they won't allow you to use test data to even see if the teachers are good, just take our word for it even though all the kids are failing, that's the kind of insanity that goes on in public education.
Where no matter how bad you are as a teacher, we cannot get rid of you. That to me is a travesty. And if the nation wasn't at stake, meaning if we don't educate these kids, we're going to drown in paying for jails and prison. I'd say let that go. It's time for us to be sensible about this and do the right thing and say these simple reforms have to happen if we're going to improve education in America. BROWN: Bill, let me be more specific because I talked to you about this. I know the last time that you were on the Rhode Island school district --
BENNETT: Yes.
BROWN: -- that planned, had planned to fire all of their teachers. It was applauded by a lot of people including the president and then this week, we learned that those teachers are actually being kept on after making some concessions. I mean, does that prove I guess just how hard it is to make the kind of systemic change in the system that Geoffrey is talking about.
BENNETT: Yes, it is. It is hard to make systemic change. We need a revolution. But, yes, there's always a let down in these things. There always seems to be a disappointment. At the same time, the irony is there are a lot of very talented young people such as people who applied to teach for America, many of them don't even make it who are very talented, who would love to teach for two or three or four years before they move onto something else. We have to make it possible for more of our talent to be in our classroom, to be encouraged and rewarded in our classroom. And we've got to stop with the notion that I heard 1,000 administrators say to me, the hardest thing they had to do in their job was to get rid of an incompetent teacher. That's just crazy. It's just crazy. You don't stand for it. Airline pilots, nurses, doctors shouldn't stand for it with teachers.
BROWN: Gentlemen, we're going to have to end it there. Geoffrey Canada, always good to have you here, and Bill Bennett as well. Thanks to both of you. Really appreciate it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. In case you missed it last night, Larry had a rare one-on-one interview, a prime time exclusive with rock legend Mick Jagger. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": How do you account for the longevity of "The Stones" as a success?
MICK JAGGER, ROCK LEGEND: I think "The Stones" are very lucky. Yes, you always need a lot of luck. And I think they were in the right place at the right time. And we, quite when we worked, we work very hard. So I think you need all of those things. It's no good just being hard working. Lots of people are hard working. But you've got to be hard working on your game and be lucky.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And tonight on "LARRY KING LIVE," another prime time exclusive. Laura and Lisa Ling will be on the show to talk about Laura's nightmare in North Korea, her arrest and imprisonment, and Lisa's fight to bring her home. Up next, though, tonight's "Punch Line." Our own roundup of the best material on late night.
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BROWN: Time now for "The Punch Line," our nightly roundup of the best in late night. Tonight, it's courtesy of Letterman, Lopez and Fallon. (INAUDIBLE).
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE LOPEZ, HOST: I was on vacation. I thought it would be a good idea to get some sun. So I went to Arizona. I got some sun all right. Son, can I see your papers?
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": Listen, these Iraq security forces say they had detained an Al Qaeda member suspected of planning an attack on the World Cup in South Africa next month. The man has already admitted that terror and destruction was his ultimate goal.
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": Tar is washing up onto the beaches. Big globs of tar. And people are saying, well, is that going to ruin our summer at the beach? No. No, of course not. You take the big blobs of tar, and you use them to hold down your blanket. There, it won't blow away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That's it everybody. Have a good night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
