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Campbell Brown
Disaster in the Gulf
Aired May 27, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everybody. Campbell's off. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Just when we began to think that there may be a glimpse of hope, things tonight have turned sour in the Gulf of Mexico. I want to show you first of all this live picture of this leak we have been sharing with you. I have got some experts who are going to be coming on in a moment to analyze it for you and tell you where we are in this top kill process thus far that's had, well, let's just say, a couple of wrenches thrown at it tonight.
BP says the operation was suspended not once, but twice, because too much mud was escaping. We're going to go through this with you.
Also, tonight, it's official. This is now the worst oil spill in U.S. history, and the effects are being felt all the way from the Gulf -- Gulf Coast to Washington. The political implications were also front and center today. The head of the agency that's supposed to watch over drilling was fired. And yet the president says he doesn't know if that's true or if she just quit.
However, the president goes on to say that he is in charge. And he pushed back against those who say that he has not been engaged in this process, accusing them of not knowing the facts. That's a direct quote.
Before we get into the politics, though, there's something else that I want you to see. This is from a hearing on the Gulf spill today in the House. But what you're about to hear is not so much really about policy. This is personal. This is a situation that seems to be now enough to make literally a grown man cry.
Here's Louisiana Congressman Charlie Melancon today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. CHARLIE MELANCON (D), LOUISIANA: Our culture is threatened. Our coastal economy is threatened. And everything that I know and love is at risk.
Even though this marsh lies along coastal Louisiana, these are America's wetlands. Excuse me. I just wish to submit for the record. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thank the gentleman. And every member of our committee and every American is praying for the people of Louisiana and the people of the Gulf. It's just an unimaginable tragedy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He wasn't able to finish. He wasn't able to even stay there. He had to walk away because he was so overcome. I mean, that doesn't seem to be a politician or policy-maker talking. I mean, that's a Louisianian. That's a guy who's really, you know, very upset about this.
Ed Overton is an environmental scientist at Louisiana State University. Carl Smith is an oil rig captain. He testified just yesterday, by the way, at the government hearing into this disaster.
Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining me.
Ed, I want to begin with you, because now I'm really confused. And I think many of the American people are confused as well. We just heard an interview that John King did not long ago with one of the BP executives that this thing has now been stopped twice. We were -- I was reporting on this very set about three hours ago that it looked like things were going pretty well.
Let's just start with the basics. What happened?
ED OVERTON, LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, I mean, you reckon we got a bunch of clowns running the show over there?
(LAUGHTER)
OVERTON: I mean, this is just -- it's worse than mind-boggling. But I could -- without being on the inside circle and knowing what's going on, you have got to assume that they ran out of something. And my guess is, they ran out of drilling fluid, that they were -- the mud that they were pumping down there.
I suspect that they weren't too sure that this was going to work, so they got some fluid, and it started working, and, gosh, everybody got surprised. Then they realized they were using the fluid at a rate faster than they could replenish it. So, that's a wild guess on my part, but it's probably pretty close.
SANCHEZ: But regardless as to whether that's the case or not, as I understand this, from experts that I have been talking to, this is not so much about the accumulation of mud -- and I will just use this device here to show what I'm talking about -- it's -- this is just a regular tube -- but it's the accumulation of pressure.
They're trying to push pressure down from the top here to equate the pressure that's coming up from the bottom here. From the bottom, it's the natural gas and the oil. And from the top it's the mud. Once you stop, common sense tells you you're back at square one, aren't you, Captain? CARL SMITH, OIL RIG CAPTAIN: No, not necessarily.
SANCHEZ: All right. Take us through it.
SMITH: The -- the key of well control is actually the hydrostatic pressure at the bottom of the well, which is excerpted by the column of fluid. And it's a function of the height of the fluid and the weight of the fluid. So, if you can get a heavy enough fluid down to the bottom, you can actually balance the pressure at the bottom of the well with nothing mechanical.
SANCHEZ: But -- OK, no, I understand what you're saying perfectly well. What you're saying is that because they have already been going for something like 37, 38 hours or whatever, when they stopped it, they had already pushed enough mud down that there's pressure.
But what I don't understand and what you just explained is, sir, what's to keep that pressure down? Once you stop applying pressure this way, won't that all blow back up again?
SMITH: Well, if you have not balanced the formation pressure, then it will try to keep coming back up, but if you can put enough heavy mud down, it will actually balance the pressure and stop.
SANCHEZ: So, you believe...
SMITH: That's what they're trying to do.
SANCHEZ: So, you believe there's a possibility that they shove, for lack of a better word, enough mud with pressure down there, that they have started to reach that equilibrium, but they haven't reached it yet, and it's OK to stop and then just start all over again?
SMITH: You just keep pumping as much as you can. To balance the pressure with the weight of the mud is the only way you're going to stop that well.
SANCHEZ: Ed, you buy it?
OVERTON: Well, you know, I think you could look at the pictures. Is anything flowing out of the top of the pipes, the breaks? And if it is...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let's put that picture up. Is this live, guys, in the control room? OK. This is a live picture.
I want you two guys to take a look at this and tell me, if you could, sir, if this is telling you anything and how it compares to what we saw earlier today and what we saw before this operation began.
Ed, you first.
OVERTON: Well, unfortunately, all I see is a camera, so I can't see what's going on there, so please describe it, and we will comment on it.
SANCHEZ: Well, it looks to me -- Captain Smith, can you see it, sir?
SMITH: Yes, I can.
SANCHEZ: OK. Why don't you take a shot at it then?
SMITH: I'm just looking at a picture of something flowing out. I really can't assess what the volume coming out is. That's going to have to be left up to the people on scene that are actually working this problem.
SANCHEZ: But, you know, I looked at this picture yesterday -- earlier today, and the mud seemed redder.
I don't know if that means anything. And, in comparison to earlier today, it also looks like a bigger flow. Does that -- does that correlate to anything?
SMITH: It's a visual image. I really can't assess it.
The color might reflect the composition of oil and gas being changed a little bit, but there's some real smart people working on this. And I think what we need to do is leave them alone and let them work on it.
SANCHEZ: Ed, you think they're smart enough?
OVERTON: Well, they clearly were caught off-guard here. And I think that what we have got to do is let them recoup, get whatever they need to get, and start again.
It was successful. It was working. Now -- and I think, for whatever the -- whatever caused the glitch in this, what we need to do is to get back and start putting more and more mud down there. Of course, what worries me, Captain, is that, as you put the mud down, if you don't have enough of the mud, then the pressure at the bottom of the well will blow the mud back up once you take the pressure off at the blowout (INAUDIBLE).
So...
SANCHEZ: That -- that seems to be, gentlemen, what a lot of people would be thinking.
But we're going to continue to go through this. I mean, look, I think, like a lot of people who are there, we're all looking for answers as a nation. And we're glad that we have got you two gentlemen to try and take us through this explanation.
By the way, we're just now getting started on a night that could prove crucial for stopping this oil spill.
Today, we saw President Obama under pressure. He was defending his performance. And vowing that the buck does, in fact, a la Truman, stop with him. Our political panel is ready to go next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Every day that this oil gushes into the Gulf, the rumblings grow louder in Washington. And, today, the president did his best to dispel accusations that he was not in charge and in control.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The American people should know that from the moment this disaster began, the federal government has been in charge of the response effort.
Make no mistake, BP is operating at our direction. Every key decision and action they take must be approved by us in advance.
This has been our highest priority since this crisis occurred.
Personally, I'm briefed every day.
But there shouldn't be any confusion here. The federal government is fully engaged. And I'm fully engaged.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: By the way, the president said today that he's so in charge, so fully engaged, he even used his daughter Malia to make a point, make the case that this spill is the first thing that he thinks about every single day, this story.
And Doug Brinkley is back with us tonight, along with CNN's political analyst Roland Martin and CNN senior political analyst David Gergen.
Guy, I can't start this conversation without asking you about the developments that we have tonight, because if this thing continued on schedule and was working as well as three or four hours ago some suspected it was, then we might be looking at a scenario where, hallelujah, the thing gets plugged, they throw in the concrete, and maybe there's a respite, politically.
But they have stopped this thing twice tonight, and it's starting to become very suspicious as to whether or not they're going to continue this operation and if so how long it's going to take. Has the game changed, David?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I don't think it's changed, but I think, if this doesn't work, it's going to change.
You know, they always said it was a 60 to 70 percent chance of success. If this does not work -- I mean, if it works, terrific. We're all going to be full of relief.
SANCHEZ: Absolutely. GERGEN: But, if it doesn't work -- if it doesn't work, this ratchets it up to a whole new level and does demand I think stronger and tougher leadership by the White House and by the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: But here's -- but here's the real question, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
MARTIN: We're saying that it demands stronger leadership. I understand that in terms of overseeing it.
But the federal government, clearly, they're not sitting on a magic bullet where they actually have the technology to actually stop this. And that is -- and so the problem here, I mean, I'm sitting here thinking about Apollo 13.
Just imagine if there was a 24-hour cable news cycle when Apollo 13, when they were trying to figure out how to get our astronauts back. The reality is, Rick, is, they don't know. So, they are literally trying to figure out on the fly, the government and BP, to figure out how to get this done. That's -- that's why it's so crazy.
SANCHEZ: But, sometimes, Roland -- but, sometimes, you know, it's what you do in terms of appearance.
MARTIN: Oh, I agree.
SANCHEZ: It's standing before -- you know, when George Bush grabbed that bullhorn in downtown New York, where the buildings once -- the buildings once stood, and sounded robust, like he was in charge, he probably didn't have all the answers as to what was going to go on in Afghanistan and Iraq at that moment, but it seemed to validate him.
This president with this crisis has not had a bullhorn moment. Is that right, Doug Brinkley?
DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: I think that's correct.
I think the problem that the president's getting into -- and I think it was great that he did a press conference today. He either dismissed or fired the head of MMS, Elizabeth Birnbaum, which was a step in the right direction. He called a moratorium on doing more offshore, particularly this summer up in the Arctic. Shell is not going to be drilling. Things are happening.
But the perception and the anger level of the American people is growing, and it's because BP's not trusted. When Tony Hayward said it was a drop in the bucket in the sea, in the Gulf of Mexico, when BP said it was -- had such low figures, nobody can be following this crisis and say BP isn't constantly minimizing and misleading the American public.
That puts pressure on President Obama, because as Roland said, we can't plug the well. Only BP can. But the president has got to show a determined leadership and also has to start containing this.
(CROSSTALK)
BRINKLEY: We need to get more National Guard down there, perhaps have the Southern Command of General Ken Keen, who did an excellent job with the 82nd Airborne in Haiti.
We have got to look at this as a serious attack on American soil. All of the outrage is coming out of Louisiana for a reason.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: You have three issues, Rick. You have three issues.
SANCHEZ: Go ahead.
MARTIN: OK? There is a -- the primary issue is, we don't have -- the federal government does not have the answers to solve the leak. So, I mean, that's A. The second issue that you really have...
(CROSSTALK)
BRINKLEY: That's just been said.
MARTIN: No, no, no, no, but -- no, I got you. Follow me here.
The second flank that you have is, you're really dealing with a P.R. issue. When you had BP, frankly, that did not tell people they actually stopped this procedure. They told John King, hey, maybe we should have done that.
The third piece is the political angle. So, the problem is, as long as A still is there, you can try to minimize it all you want to. You can try to say clean up. You can try to say a P.R. initiative, but at the end of the day, unless you stop it, the rest of the stuff is meaningless.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: But even -- even a card, even an ace that was handed to him today, most people today looked at the firing of the MMS director, Elizabeth Birnbaum and said, wow, the president went out there and did something based on what we have been reading that was a problem with that agency.
MARTIN: Right.
SANCHEZ: And two sources are telling CNN that she was, indeed, fired.
When the president's asked, "Mr. President, Mr. Gravitas in this moment, did you fire this person because they weren't getting the job done?" listen to his answer.
Play that, Lucas (ph), if you got it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Elizabeth Birnbaum resigned today. Did she resign? Was she fired? Was she forced out? And if so, why? And should other heads roll as we go on here?
OBAMA: I found out about her resignation today. Ken Salazar has been in testimony throughout the day. So I don't know the circumstances in which this occurred.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MARTIN: That's crazy. That's crazy.
SANCHEZ: David, in the same breath that the president said he's in charge of this operation and has been from the very beginning, he comes back and says one of the persons who's the director of the most important agency dealing with this was fired, or maybe quit. He doesn't know. He didn't find out because somebody else did it.
I want to ask you about that. But we have got to get a break in. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And we welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Historian Doug Brinkley back with us tonight, along with CNN political analyst Roland Martin and CNN senior political analyst David Gergen.
Back to that question, David. The president says, in one breath, I'm completely in charge of this, have been from the beginning. And, in the next breath, he says that, as far as Elizabeth Birnbaum's firing is concerned, as I heard it, David, he was sounding like he wasn't even in the loop. So, is he in charge or is he not in charge?
GERGEN: That's a darn good question.
Let me just say this. I join Doug Brinkley in saluting the president for coming up, having a press conference today and in a manly way taking a responsibility and say, look, I'm the guy in charge; the buck stops here.
I like that. Having done that, it does not inspire confidence that you're really in a take-charge situation when you don't know the facts in something that's pretty darn central, and one of your key people has been fired. And either his team didn't tell him, which I think is, you know, they let him down, or something else went kaflooey here, because he should have known. Everybody was talking about it this morning.
Now, the second is that Thad Allen said today -- and I have a great deal of respect for Thad Allen. But when he says, look, I don't know quite what's going on with top kill because they haven't called me yet from BP, well, that's -- that's not what Americans are looking for right now.
They're looking for a person and people who are on top of this thing, directing it in an emergency way. This is -- they need a -- sort of a war room, in effect, where there's a central command where these things are being done.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Right.
GERGEN: And, OK, I know the government doesn't have the -- doesn't have the drilling equipment.
SANCHEZ: Right.
GERGEN: But it's not -- BP is not the only darn country -- company around. There's ExxonMobil. There are a lot of companies who have got expertise in this thing. Have we got the best people working this?
Why are we still having our fate in the hands of BP and waiting for them to tell us, when we don't even know if they're telling us the darn truth or not? Clearly, they haven't been...
(CROSSTALK)
GERGEN: Go ahead.
MARTIN: And, David, on that point, when I called the White House and said, hey, if terms of if you say you don't have the answers, then what in the heck are you doing, they said, look, we have the energy secretary who has assembled this team, some of the most brilliant people in the world, down there. When BP comes up with a solution, they say, that's not going to work. Try this one.
And I'm sitting here saying, OK, but does anybody know that? And you're absolutely right. It's a situation where, if BP says we should have been more forthcoming in telling people that we stopped the process, no, you should have a clear chain of command, just like you had the case in Katrina, where you had Legitimate General Honore saying, look, everything comes from me downward.
That instills confidence.
GERGEN: That's what I believe.
MARTIN: And so they're dealing with a serious perception problem. And, look, the perception is, they're clueless.
SANCHEZ: It's called message -- it's called message control. It's called message control.
GERGEN: I agree with that, Roland. SANCHEZ: And let me give you an example.
GERGEN: That's right.
SANCHEZ: Guys, look at this. I got little props here, all right? Lucas, open this up. This is the -- this is the -- it's written so small over here. OK. This is "The New York Times." All right?
This is BP's ad. This is the "USA Today," same ad, BP. And there's still another one here somewhere. This is "The Wall Street Journal." Look at this. So, while the White House seems to be, you know, as some might describe, kind of looking for its footing in terms of just deliberate message control, here's BP taking out full-page ads.
What say you, historian Doug Brinkley?
BRINKLEY: I say that, in those same newspapers, the front page of an excellent story in today's "Wall Street Journal" and an excellent front-page story in "The New York Times," it talked about how BP basically has lied and covered up the original Deepwater Horizon disaster.
SANCHEZ: There's some irony for you.
BRINKLEY: Yes.
And, so, they're -- in the news coverage, they're trying to just buy their P.R. right now. This is a company that told us there was a 1,000 barrels a day, when it's -- now we know it's 19,000. That's 19 times wrong. It took a -- on CNN, a Purdue University associate professor to give us the math after looking at it in 10 minutes.
What David Gergen and Roland Martin are both saying is that BP can't be trusted. We want to trust President Obama, but he can't deal with the micro-game of this hour by hour. He needs to appoint a Madeleine Albright or Colin Powell, or, as I mentioned, the Southern Command, or -- and Roland mentioned -- during Katrina, it wasn't just Honore coming in the Thursday after the storm.
It was when the 101st Airborne came in New Orleans and got control of the situation. Maybe it's the Seabees need to come and start helping on the marshlands right now, the Navy Seabees.
(CROSSTALK)
BRINKLEY: But this needs to be treated as a military operation, not this piecemeal of all these different voices. One does not feel there's a command center, because Thad Allen is the head of the Coast Guard, and he may be doing a good job with the Coast Guard, but he's not doing a good job explaining MMS, FEMA, Bobby Jindal's concerns for barrier islands.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Let me bring David into this, because this goes right to what you can do as an administration.
You have worked in several, David. What does the White House do in a situation that they really can't control and there is, as Brinkley just said, information out there that these guys may have been deceitful? What can the White House do in a situation like this?
GERGEN: Well, listen, when we -- when most Americans heard today that the government was in charge, that came as one hell of a surprise, because it hasn't at all been apparent that anybody's been in charge.
What is -- but this is not just a question of appearances. To go back to Roland's point, there are different aspects of this. It's a P.R. question. But it's also how do you actually get things done?
MARTIN: Right.
GERGEN: And you need a command structure, just as you have in a wartime situation or in any national emergency in which one or two strong individuals, a really Giuliani-type person, is reporting to the president and then has other people reporting to him on a day-to-day, hour-to-hour basis, on exactly what's going on, and orders come down from the top.
This is the way the military does it. This is what we need on the coast. You know, when we see those pictures tonight again from the coast, and we will see them -- maybe we will see them tomorrow, depending on how they run this tour tomorrow. But we see those pictures coming back from the coast.
We're -- there's tons of oil out there. And nobody's out there cleaning it up. It hasn't been cleaned it up for a week. It undermines the argument that we're on top of this and we have got tons and tons of people working on it.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: And it should be a big name, should it not? It should be a big name, right? It should be somebody who has got credibility with the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: First of all, you know, we can throw around names all we want to, but if Thad Allen is there -- first of all, the Coast Guard, they are a part of the military. You do have ships down there.
But what you simply need is, if he is the person, then take control. Then tell BP, you know what, it's coming through us. You don't -- you guys don't have to depend on calling news conferences. We are going to tell people everything every hour every minute.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: We're going to have to -- guys, we're going to have to leave it there. We will continue the discussion. You know we will. I don't think this thing's going away, and especially given the news that we have just heard within the last hour or so.
My thanks to all three of you. Interesting discussion. We will watch it as it goes. We will see what kind of political implications it has.
We will be right back, in fact, with James Carville. You will certainly want to hear him tonight, as residents along the Louisiana coast wait to find out if the top kill is a success or as frustrating as it seems to be appearing tonight.
We will be right back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We're joined now by CNN's James Carville, who's been following this as closely as anybody. And to him, as you can tell from some of the comments that he's made thus far, it's very personal.
James, thanks so much for being with us. I got to tell you -- I got to tell you, James, the information that we're getting from BP tonight, I mean, I've had scientists tell me that this is about sustained pressure, downward, on the oil spill, and now we're hearing they turned this thing off twice? That can't be good news for you and the people down there who have been monitoring this. What say you?
JAMES CARVILLE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, you know, I don't know. You have to hope. And, you know, this thing is just -- it's just degrading to watch this thing go. I don't know -- you're right. I don't believe anything BP says. I don't know why people call on them to provide us more information because the information that comes from BP should be discarded. They haven't told the truth about anything. And so --
SANCHEZ: Now, you called -- you called the -- I'm going to read your quote that everybody's been talking about, and that is "the president needs to act like BP's daddy." So the president calls a news conference today.
CARVILLE: Right.
SANCHEZ: And he says, look, I'm in control here. I'm in charge of the situation, have been from the very beginning. You buy it?
CARVILLE: I mean, look, I don't -- I think the president has been ill advised. The president says that everything down there is being done, people really working. You know, Anderson Cooper, we were with him and with the governor. For three hours, we went to the mouth of the river. We saw thousands of acres of distressed wetlands. We didn't see a single, not one, not one person doing a single thing.
Now, look, I'm as good a Democrat as anybody. I support -- I supported everything this president did. I supported the bank bailout, the stimulus. I support health care, even the expansion of the war in Afghanistan. I said, look, gee, I guess this is the best guy I can come up with. But I've got to tell you he is being ill advised. I know what my two eyes saw. I mean, I can -- and he says that the people out here don't have the facts. I know -- I know I'm not a Harvard Law review guy, professor of law at University of Chicago. But the people down here know what they're seeing. And it seems like the president is actually madder at his critics than he is at BP, and BP is the person that's at fault here, not me.
SANCHEZ: What do you make of the fact that -- and I was talking with David Gergen about this a little while ago, that he goes on this news conference today and he essentially says that he really wasn't in the loop in the firing or dismissal or the quitting of Elizabeth Birnbaum. But in the next breath he says I am completely in control of this situation, have been from the very beginning. Is that a little -- how do you reconcile those two?
CARVILLE: You know, look, you're the president, you have a lot of things to do. That was probably not the best moment he had in the press conference. I really do take real issue here, and I'd like to know from the secretary interior what was going on, because we knew this was a corrupt thing. This inspector general report in 2007 I think is one of the most devastating things ever. Why this place wasn't fumigated, cleaned out? I don't know -- and I'm going to say something right now, Rick, the one thing that this president can do is he brings in the attorney general, and a guy by the name of Cole (ph), the head of the criminal division, and launches a grand jury investigation into BP. And I'm told by a professor at Tulane Law School, they have very likely significant criminal exposure, as does a real and open investigation in the MMS. When people see that, you're going to get their attention. This stuff is going to stop.
I really do believe this. I believe there's a strong possibility that crimes were committed in the Gulf of Mexico. And that that's the way you're going -- I'm going to tell you this right now, Mr. Hayward would not fair well in Louisiana jail. It would not -- it wouldn't be a pretty sight.
SANCHEZ: Strong words.
CARVILLE: And I know the director of corrections here. And we can arrange a nice place for him, you know?
SANCHEZ: He has not faired well so far, not even in these moments where he'd had these news conferences and that one instance of him screaming at reporters the other day on the beach or having the guys around him --
CARVILLE: Right. Yes.
SANCHEZ: -- do so didn't look good. I must have gotten -- I must have gotten 500 tweets the moment Americans saw that saying, who's this guy telling American reporters that they can't be on a beach, which is public, shooting video of a story that's of this kind of national importance?
CARVILLE: He's arrogant. He's arrogant. He went over to Britain and said this was a minor thing. That the chief of the board, chairman of the board, the BP board said, look, we're a big important company and America is a big important nation. He thinks he's equal to the United States government.
This president says I'm the daddy around here. I'm in charge. Meet Mr. Holder, meet Mr. Cole (ph), meet the grand jury, throw your right hand in the air.
SANCHEZ: Let's see.
CARVILLE: And I'll tell you what, these people will be humbled.
SANCHEZ: Let's see if it happens. James Carville, thanks so much. James, I appreciate you taking time to talk to us tonight.
CARVILLE: You bet.
SANCHEZ: Coming up, plugging the oil leak now more urgent than ever. Officials now are admitting it is the worst oil disaster because it's now official, the worst oil disaster in U.S. history and it still ain't plugged, larger by far than the Exxon Valdez spill. But after a shaky start for operation "top kill," is there any hope tonight? That and more still ahead. Stay with us. We're continuing after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: I want to follow up a little bit on what James Carville was talking about just a little while ago because when we come back, we're going to have some startling new details that we've learned about BP's safety record and what that tells us about BP and the oil industry and some of the other companies that have been involved in this fiasco.
First, Joe Johns. He has a look at some other stories that we are following tonight. Joseph, how are you doing, sir?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Good, Rick, how are you doing? It's hard to believe, but there is actually more bad news for the Gulf Coast. Forecasters are predicting a, quote, "active to extremely active" Atlantic hurricane season with up to 23 tropical storms and 14 named hurricanes. As many as seven of them could be category 3 hurricanes with winds reaching more than 100 miles an hour. A typical season only has six hurricanes, two of which are category 3 status.
The death toll is climbing in Jamaica, as security forces hunt for an alleged drug kingpin. A deputy police commissioner in Kingston says at least 67 people are dead, and tonight security forces are kicking down doors and arresting dozens of residents in a bullet- riddled slum. The suspect, Christopher "Dudus" Coke is still on the run. He's wanted in the U.S. on drug and weapons charges.
And tonight, the full House is likely to vote on whether to allow gays to serve openly in the military. Take a live picture now of the U.S. House of Representatives. That House vote, they're debating now on the floor, would repeal the 1993 law known as "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" requiring gays to hide their sexual orientation while serving. Just two hours ago, a Senate committee passed a measure to repeal that law. Seems like they've slow walked this issue for years and years, Rick, and now all of a sudden hit the accelerator on it.
SANCHEZ: Yes, it certainly has. And you know what, if there's news on this thing since it's going on right now, we'll bring it to you before the end of the newscast. Joe, thank you for working a little O.T. for us tonight.
Straight ahead, what's BP's safety record really like? You heard James Carville allude to this. A lot of people have. Some experts say it's not the most impressive. What are the facts? More on the oil giant's long history of violations. That is coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez. The horror of the Deepwater Horizon oil rig, yes, that explosion that many of us passed on because the story has continued so much. It was brought back today, made vividly clear as survivors testified before a House investigative committee.
I want you to listen to this. This is a rig worker. His name is Stephen Stone. He's describing here what happened moments after the blast, as we show you some very powerful new video that's just coming in from that fateful day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOICE OF STEPHEN STONE, SURVIVOR, DEEPWATER HORIZON EXPLOSION: About 10:00, I woke up to the sound of an explosion. I didn't know what the sound was so I waited for a few seconds to see what was happening. Another explosion went off. The force of it ripped through my body and collapsed the upper decks of the rig. Someone had opened the door to my cabin and people were running up and down the halls screaming we had to get out. Once we were outside I turned and looked at the derrick, which was completely engulfed in flames so bright.
I remember seeing people just staring at the flames. Someone was trying to muster, which means to get everyone assembled and to get a head count. Some people were getting into the lifeboats and some were just in such shock, they just stood there unable to move.
Suddenly the flames in the derrick intensified and that was when people started to panic and scramble for the lifeboats. I got in the lifeboat number 2, strapped myself in and waited for what seemed like hours. Some people were getting back out of the lifeboat. Another person was still trying to muster and get a head count. I was pretty certain I was going to die, so I just sat there and waited for something to happen, for the derrick to fall down and take the lifeboat out. Finally as the lifeboat filled up with smoke, someone made the call to lower our boat into the water.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SANCHEZ: Eleven workers were killed in the April 20th explosion. It was the latest chapter of BP's long history of safety and environmental problems. Despite claims on its Web site and its company literature that, quote, "they are safe, reliable operations," and that is the primary focus of their company." You see it right there.
But we've learned different. Analysts and officials say that BP actually has the worst record than any oil company operating in the United States. In little more than a decade, BP has paid $730 million in fines, including $370 million for workers safety and environmental violations. It has pled guilty to two criminal charges and in addition to the Deepwater Horizon blast, it was found responsible for the deaths of 18 workers in two earlier explosions. Fifteen at a refinery in Texas in 2005 and it doesn't stop there. BP is currently under investigation for alleged safety violations at the Atlantis, another of its offshore drilling platforms in the Gulf of Mexico.
Of course, the oil industry is a dangerous business. But is BP putting profits before safety?
Joining us now is Tyson Slocum. He is the director of Public Citizen's Energy Program. And former Coast Guard Captain Carl Smith, he's an expert witness at this week's government hearing into this disaster, some of which we alluded to earlier in the newscast.
Tyson, I want to begin with you. We've seen whistleblowers come forward. I have interviewed some of them, myself. And we've seen records of things that should have been done like the replacing of a battery. Something as simple as that. Given those scenarios, and the information that I just read to our viewers, is it time to literally put the hammer down on this company and say, you are not doing your due diligence?
TYSON SLOCUM, PUBLIC CITIZEN'S ENERGY PROGRAM: Yes. Absolutely, Rick. I mean, when you've got a company with the kind of track record that BP has, the company's currently on criminal probation, like you said, for pleading guilty to two environmental crimes in 2007. And when you look at the Department of Justice docket sheet against this company, what you see is a company that in instance after instance is made aware of serious safety problems and the company time and time again has refused to do anything about it because of cost considerations. And if this was just an isolated incident, that would be one thing. But when you see dozens of such cases throughout the entire chain of BP's management, you've got to begin to conclude that this is a --
SANCHEZ: But is it --
SLOCUM: -- this is a corrupt company at its core, and we can't be satisfied with just another financial slap on the wrist in terms of penalty. We've got to have permanent sanctions against the habitual corporate criminal like BP.
SANCHEZ: OK. But, Tyson and Captain Smith, I want to bring you into this, is this really just about BP? Or is this an institutional problem? Because when they didn't fix that battery, shouldn't there have been somebody protecting us? Making sure that they did? When whistleblowers come forward and say they're supposed to do tests on those blowout preventers that last five minutes but they cut corners and they do it for 30 seconds, shouldn't somebody have been there to say you can't do this? Is this really an institutional failure, Captain Smith?
CARL SMITH, OIL RIG CAPTAIN: Thank you for the promotion. I'm a retired Coast Guard commander and captain on a rig today. The safety systems of all of the drilling contractors and the well operators are all pushed very hard toward making sure that the systems operate safely. They have a planned maintenance system and if there's going to be any deviation from that planned maintenance, then it's going to have to be approved by the rig management and also by the company.
SANCHEZ: So what they did wrong, they did on their own? It wasn't because nobody was looking over their shoulder? That's what you say?
SMITH: No, everyone was looking over everyone's shoulder. There was no independent doing something wrong. This was an engineering decision. I don't know the specifics.
SANCHEZ: Right.
SMITH: But it sounds like it's an engineering decision. Can we still operate safely with this particular item? And the decision was made to proceed.
SANCHEZ: Gentlemen, my thanks to both of you. We hopefully will be able to continue this discussion.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a couple of minutes. Larry is standing by now to let us know what he's got coming up -- Larry.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Rick, as you well know, President Obama defended himself and his handling of the worst oil spill in American history. It could be twice as big as you said, as Exxon Valdez. He said he takes responsibility. The government is in charge. But is enough been done? Well, legendary oil man T. Boone Pickens will join us to weigh in. Plus we'll have the latest from the Gulf Coast and what's happening with the "top kill," which you've been covering so well, Rick. This is abominable.
SANCHEZ: I can't wait to hear what T. Boone -- you know, that's a good get. Well, I hadn't thought of that one. Well done, sir. Look forward to it.
KING: Thank you, Rick.
SANCHEZ: Up next, the nation and the world watch as BP struggles to stop this devastating oil disaster. We're going to have the latest on this "top kill" fix. Or maybe lack thereof, unfortunately. Coming up after the break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: We've got a couple minutes left. I want to do something because I think the most salient part of the story is what's going on 5,000 feet below the surface, right? So let's see if we can get that picture up once again.
What is actually happening with "top kill" right now? Well, there it is. This is a live streaming picture of "top kill." And it does seem, and maybe it's just the angle at which it's being shot, but it does seem like more is blowing out now than was blowing out previously. Maybe it's the accumulation of the mud that's been sent down there. Maybe there actually is a difference since they stopped the operation.
As we look at this, I want to bring somebody who's an expert on this. Ed Overton, he's joining us now from Louisiana. He's been following the process for us since the beginning of this newscast.
Given the news that they've stopped this thing twice, Ed, what are we, as Americans, you know, many of us who are praying and hoping that this thing would work, what are we left with tonight?
ED OVERTON, LOUISIANA STATE UNIVERSITY: Well, we're left with hoping that they can recoup and start over. It looked like there was some modicum of success. Certainly they were pumping oil -- I mean, mud in and it looked like the oil had stopped. Perhaps they need a more dense mud. Something changed here, and to be as optimistic as we can, we need to assume that they want to change the modus operandi. Why didn't they figure these out beforehand? You know, these are supposed to be mud engineers that know what they're doing. Doesn't give you a lot of confidence that they have a way to fix this thing, does it?
SANCHEZ: No, and you know what? Here's the real bad news. Let's go ahead and talk about this. And I hate even saying it, but I will. Last time something like this happened was the Bay of Campeche. That was 1979, I believe, and you know what, they didn't. They tried everything that they're trying now. They tried and none of it worked. And what we ended up with instead was something like months and months and months and months and months of the same oil just flowing into the environment. That's a heck of a thing to think about, but it's starting to become, what, a possibility?
OVERTON: It was the relief well that shut the -- it cut one well off.
SANCHEZ: And how many months did it take them to do it?
OVERTON: Nine to ten. I mean it was a long haul. And this is worse than the Ikstock (ph) because it's so close to land. I mean, the Ikstock was, well, it's close to our land. Ikstock was close to the Mexican shoreline, but the general currents took the oil north, you had some impact on the southern shoreline, but --
SANCHEZ: So this went for months and months it would even be worse. We're down to 20 seconds, Ed.
OVERTON: Yes, I just -- this is just more than unbelievable.
SANCHEZ: We'll have to leave it there, sir.
OVERTON: OK.
SANCHEZ: My thanks to you. And you know, we'll just keep watching it. It's a frustrating end to what started out as a promising day.
OVERTON: Absolutely.
SANCHEZ: We'll get back into it tomorrow.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a couple minutes. First, though, I want to look back at some of the comedians and what they're saying about this situation about this oil disaster.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE JAY LENO SHOW": Here's how bad it's getting. Experts predict by next fall seawater will be $4 a gallon. That's seawater.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez. And tonight's "Punch Line," the funny men at NBC are taking aim at the White House over the massive oil spill. Jay Leno, Jimmy Fallon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE JAY LENO SHOW": According to a White House report, President Obama becoming more and more frustrated by this whole oil leak thing. He lost his temper today. He reportedly yelled at people, "plug the damn hole." That's what he said. He said plug the damn hole. That's the same thing he says whenever Joe Biden starts talking. Plug the damn hole.
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": In response to the spill, President Obama is expected to announce tougher requirements for offshore drilling. In other words, he's going to announce some requirements.
LENO: It turns out according to a report by the Interior Department inspector general, employees of the federal agency that inspect these offshore oil rigs accepted gifts from the oil companies. Yes. And you know who arranged the payoffs? Fergie.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And the situation gets so bad you feel like crying. Sometimes the best thing to do is find something that makes you laugh. My thanks to both of those gentlemen.
That's it for now. Thank you so much for being with us.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts now. He's going to be taking it to these developments as well. Here now is Larry King.
