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Campbell Brown
Tar Balls Reach Lake Pontchartrain; Why Won't BP Help Spill Victims' Mental Health Program?
Aired July 07, 2010 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: CNN primetime begins right now.
CAMPBELL BROWN, HOST: Hi there, everybody.
It is day 79 of the disaster in the Gulf. And today, Louisiana Senator Mary Landrieu put a price tag on the recovery. She says her state will need up to $1 billion a year.
With oil and tar balls turning up in Lake Pontchartrain, worry is growing in the Big Easy with oil seemingly everywhere now. We're going to hear from some local officials on the ground about what's going on there tonight.
Also tonight, new developments in the case of the suspected Russian secret agents. Could they be headed to Moscow as part of an international spy swap?
And then later, parents who say they love their kids, they just don't like parenting. Are moms and dads secretly less happy than everybody else? A very interesting new research on that.
A lot to get to tonight. But we're going to begin with the pretty disheartening news in the fight to try to save the Gulf Coast tonight. The battle is going to take a lot longer than anyone could have imagined when the Deepwater Horizon blew up nearly three months ago.
Today, the man President Obama tapped to oversee long-term oil spill restoration, secretary of the Navy and former Mississippi governor, Ray Mabus, now with frustrated local officials.
Our David Mattingly was there, and he's joining me tonight from New Orleans.
So, David, what exactly did Secretary Mabus hear from the people he met with? I know it was Governor Jindal, Senator Landrieu and the rest. What do they say?
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, the secretary got an earful, so to speak -- respectful, but an earful nonetheless -- as they took an aerial tour over the affected areas. He heard a lot about Louisiana's coastal woes, that dated back decades, before this oil spill happened. He is the president's point man on the restoration of the Gulf Coast. And nowhere is that needed more than here in Louisiana. You heard about the price tag that Senator Landrieu was talking about this. Now, they're talking about practicality, about when to start these plans for restoration.
I put that to everyone, the governor, the senator, and the secretary, when is this restoration going to begin? Because we haven't even finished with the cleanup yet and there was some very unsettling predictions on how long it's going to take for this cleanup to go on. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: It's not going to be done in days, it's not going to be done in week, and nobody's predicting they're going to cap that leak tomorrow, by the way. So, we know that just when it comes to cleanup and dealing with oil, and that's oil on the surface and subsurface, we know we'll be dealing with this oil at least for months, maybe longer, maybe even year washing up on our coasts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MATTINGLY: And you heard what he said there, Campbell, at least months, maybe years, that they're going to see the effects of this oil spill washing up on the coast here, and that's what they're preparing to do to continue this cleanup as long as it takes here.
BROWN: And, David, we're also hearing these complaints from -- well, coming from at least one parish president, (INAUDIBLE), he's saying that these chemical dispersants that are everywhere now, that are supposed to break up the oil, are actually making it harder to stop tar balls from washing up on the shore, in places like Slidell, and he wants an immediate freeze on using dispersants, period.
What are you hearing about this from officials down there?
MATTINGLY: Well, that debate really heating up when those tar balls showed up in Lake Pontchartrain. No one thought the oil would get that far. They thought they were going to have measures in place to prevent from that happening. But it did happen. And it really set people off.
And the governor was reminding everyone today that, all along, he has been saying that he has not signed on to that subsea dispersant application. And he's asked the federal government to reexamine that and stop doing that. But at this point, they say that while that's continuing, they're looking at the possibility now that that subsea dispersant is making it harder for them to watch this oil, to track this oil, and to protect themselves from this oil as it breaks up into smaller pieces and continues to come to shore.
BROWN: All right. David Mattingly for us from New Orleans tonight -- David, thanks.
Unfortunately, Slidell not alone. Nearby, we are learning more about what is a huge psychological blow for the people of New Orleans, tar balls are showing up in Lake Pontchartrain. Lake Pontchartrain sits right on the northern edge of New Orleans.
This is a saltwater lake. It's the largest in Louisiana, where people live. They fish. They enjoy the water there.
All through this crisis, we have been in close contact with community leaders along the Gulf.
And back with us right now -- we have Jefferson Parish councilman Chris Roberts and Jean Lafitte, who is Louisiana Mayor. Do I have that right? I'm sorry, Tim Kerner, Tim -- I'm sure, Mayor --
MAYOR TIM KERNER, JEAN LAFITTE, LOUSIANA: Yes, ma'am.
BROWN: Mayor Kenner, welcome to you, too.
And let me start with you. I know, you know, as we said, you have tar balls washing up in Lake Pontchartrain. And because of that, I think, for lot of people, a lot people in New Orleans, that really does bring this home, because, you know, that's essentially oil coming right into the heart of New Orleans, isn't it?
KERNER: Yes, not only are tar balls washing up in Lake Pontchartrain, right now in Lafitte, Louisiana, across the bay, Bayou Barataria, there's water actually on the street, just from this outside wind, and it's getting a little dangerous right now. We hope it starts receding tonight.
But we're actually worried any kind of disturbance or hurricane would actually put water and oil into homes in my area.
BROWN: Wow. Chris, you talked to me about what this means for folks in your community.
CHRIS ROBERTS, JEFFERSON PARISH, LA COUNCILMAN: Well, Jefferson Parish is -- certainly borders the lake. The lake is one of last areas still open for fishing, for recreation. It's an area during the summertime that a lot of people will go out to in order to enjoy themselves. And now, you know, we're not just seeing this oil along the coast, like in Lafitte and Grand Isle, but we have it on the backside now as well, which is the lake.
So, virtually, every bit of shoreline that surrounds the city and the entire metropolitan area is some way impacted. And as the mayor alluded to, we're in the midst of storm season. The height of the season yet is still to come. And these disturbances and hurricanes don't help the situation at all.
BROWN: So, let's talk about what you guys are trying to do to stop it from coming any closer, or to the degree you can. Secretary Mabus flew our the area today, Chris, where I know that you and other local officials are pushing to have these rock barriers built and -- to try to keep the oil further from shore. And a lot of scientists, as you know, strongly oppose this idea. They call it a quick-fix solution that would ultimately damage the shoreline and setting you up -- I mean, you guys are talking about the danger of storm season. They're saying it could set you up for true disaster during storm season.
What's your response?
ROBERTS: That's absolutely correct. And, you know, a lot of these people that are making these comments are not people that have lived in these communities their entire life. You talk to a fisherman that's been along the bayou and they'll tell you that the passes we're talking about trying to block were much smaller. They grew in size because of hurricanes. Therefore, we're not really changing anything from its original condition, when you go back and look 50-plus years ago.
In addition to that, when this oil comes in, it's doing damage to the marsh, too. We're not speculating on what the damage is to the marsh. When you go out there and you look where the oil has impacted and has hit the wildlife and hit the marshland, the marsh is dying.
Their comments are totally based upon speculation. We're not speculating what the risk is with the oil.
BROWN: Right. But, Chris, it's not -- you know, these aren't hacks who are saying this. This is -- the Corps of Engineers has said this is going to be -- this is a very short-term fix with long, long term implications. EPA is with them, NOAA all supporting their findings on this.
I mean, these scientists don't want to cause any more problems for your community. But how do you address their concerns?
ROBERTS: No, we don't want to cause any more problems for our community. Our engineers are telling us completely opposite.
Keep in mind -- this is the same EPA that's allowing dispersants to being used without any testing in our seafood. We don't know what the long term impacts are going to be. In addition to that, this is the same corps that constructed the floodwalls that basically flooded this city following Hurricane Katrina.
So, when you talk about the corps and you talk about the EPA, the corps really doesn't have much credibility in this community at all. We saw firsthand what their engineering does. And we're looking at, you know, trying to provide some temporary protection to these communities at the height of hurricane season.
These barges cannot be left in these passes because when a storm comes, the Coast Guard requires that the barges be pulled out. You can't expect the boom to work because Hurricane Alex went in in Texas, 85 percent of the boom was displaced.
So, the rocks are the only thing that can stay. And I know the mayor's got strong feelings about that as well.
BROWN: So, Tim, let me go to you on this. Yes, go ahead.
KERNER: Let me just tell you that, if you walk here right now, in lower Lafitte, Barataria, you're going to -- you're going to go have water over your ankles because we have just a south wind. If you have any kind of disturbance or hurricane, you're going to get four, five feet of water in there with oil, in people's houses. You're going to ruin the Barataria estuary, you're going to ruin our community, you're going to ruin our way of life.
I want to know which scientist would actually tell me that that -- that putting rocks is worse than that. And what I'd like to do is for them to come over and try to tell me right now, when we actually almost have water in our homes, and worry about -- we have a -- I tell you, it would be hard not to stick one of them heads in the water. And I'm sorry, I just got enough.
BROWN: Well, I wish we could get some consensus on this. You know, given all of the challenges that everyone's trying to deal with, with the oil still flowing, it's impossible to sort of get a read on what really is accurate.
But I appreciate your point of view, Chris, as always.
And, Tim, thank you very much for being with us tonight.
ROBERTS: Sure thing, thank you.
KERNER: Thank you.
BROWN: And next up: Families all along the Gulf Coast being pushed to the brink right now. They're running out of money as their jobs fall victim to the spill. And the stress for a lot of people is just too much. We're going to talk about why BP is refusing to help pay for a mental health program that could provide some real help. We'll talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, another growing problem to tell you about stemming from the oil spill, the psychological and emotional disaster that people are coping with along the Gulf Coast. And yet again, BP being accused of sitting on its hands and doing nothing to help, all in the name of saving money.
Randi Kaye talks to some people who claim the oil giant is ignoring their pleas for help.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When Louisiana's health secretary sent this letter to BP last week requesting $10 million in funding for mental health, he expected a speedy answer, days at most. This is what he told us last week.
ALAN LEVINE, LOUISIANA DEPT. OF HEALTH & HOSPITALS: That's one of the reasons why we put a deadline on the letter. If you notice, the last sentence, we said we need an answer by next week.
KAYE (on camera): But that deadline has come and gone. No answer from BP. And this was the state's second request for $10 million.
BP responded to the first request, saying it, quote, "looked forward to continuing the dialogue." But the oil giant provided nothing.
(voice-over): The money, if it ever comes, would be used to treat those experiencing emotional trauma since the spill, fisherman like Louis Lund, Jr., who can no longer fish because of the oil.
His wife says he's full of rage.
RACHEL MORRIS, FISHERMAN'S WIFE: He wants to go on a rampage, screaming, punching, hitting, whatever he can do, and he can't, and he just can't get it out. It's just stuck in there bubbling.
KAYE (on camera): How's that anger coming out?
MORRIS: It comes out -- he started drinking. He's smoking more when we're trying to quit. He takes it out on us, just in general. We do something that kind of would make him upset and all the other stress is kind of piled on top of that so he blows up.
KAYE (voice-over): Rachel Morris wants to help. She's learning how to navigate the emotional pressures at group wellness classes like this one at the St. Bernard project. Other Gulf wives are here, too. Same problem.
YVONNE LANDRY, FISHERMAN'S WIFE: I've got one at home right now that needs to vent, you know, but won't, he'll fuss at me or he'll fuss at him or the kids.
KAYE: Among other things, the group is taught breathing exercises to control stress.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Push the air out. Release all that negativity from your body.
KAYE: The project CEO, Zach Rosenberg, says if BP doesn't pay, this lifeline will end for many. They won't have enough money to treat everyone.
Even now, it's far from ideal. Those anxious, angry or depressed already have to wait eight weeks just to get in for a first appointment.
(on camera): Is this wellness group an example of why you need more money from BP?
ZACK ROSENBERG, CEO & CO-FOUNDER, ST. BERNARD PROJECT: If we are able to get more dollars in the door, start a peer-to-peer counseling program, we're going to add evening and weekend hours to our center, and we're going to open a satellite office down the road, because the need is clearly there.
KAYE (voice-over): We tried to contact BP numerous times to ask why it hasn't even responded to the state's latest request. No one at BP responded to us either.
(on camera): Does it surprise you that BP hasn't come forward with the $10 million to help people like your family, that the state has requested?
MORRIS: No, I don't think -- it's not surprising to me. I don't think they're doing nearly what they could do. I don't expect to see the $10 million because they don't care about us. We're an inconvenience to them.
KAYE (voice-over): An inconvenience and perhaps just another expense in BP's $3 billion tab in the Gulf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Randi Kaye is joining me right now from New Orleans.
And, Randi, you just made the point. I mean, considering how much BP is on the hook for here already, it seems like $10 million that the state is asking for doesn't really seem like much. I mean, you know, that it wouldn't make much of a difference to them.
KAYE: That's certainly the way, Campbell, that folks here are looking at it. In fact, in addition to the health secretary's letter to BP, one Louisiana congressman sent his own letter to BP, to Doug Suttles there, the COO, about two weeks ago, saying, hey, why don't you guys forgo your bonus, the executives forgo their bonuses for one year? Because last year, the top five executive's bonuses came out to just about $10 million, which is what the state is asking for, for mental health funding. So, he said, why don't you forgo those? And he, too, is waiting for a response, two weeks later, from BP, just like rest of us.
BROWN: Randi Kaye for us tonight from New Orleans -- Randi, thank you.
And let me bring in right now our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who's also in New Orleans tonight.
And, Sanjay, talk to us about how something like this -- this sort of manmade disaster, compares to Hurricane Katrina, in terms of how people are dealing with it and how they're affected by it, because people in that part of the country have been through a lot over the last decade.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, really, I mean, it's one thing after the other -- the hurricane, several of them, as you know, the recession, and now this.
You know, there are a couple of important differences. And one might just be obvious. And that is that this is ongoing, Campbell, 2 1/2 months now, more than that. We've been talking about this.
And for many people, there's just no end in sight. As long as the hurricane lasted, as long as the flooding afterward, people did have some sort of sense that eventually, it was going to come to an end. They don't have that same feeling here. And that takes a much larger mental toll.
Something else that may be a little less intuitive, unless you're from this part of the country, and that is, if you have lost -- if you lost your job or your livelihood after Katrina, if you're a carpenter, if you had some sort of skill, you might be able to go to a different part of the country, another part of the state even, and find work. So, many of the people here, Campbell, depended on the water, fishermen, and that's what they do. So, it's very hard for them to move to a different part of the state or different part of the country. And that's another part of what's such a huge part of the mental toll.
BROWN: Wow. Sanjay, studies have also shown a big increase in depression among local residents after Exxon Valdez. And talk to me about what you're hearing from local officials down there on this in comparison.
GUPTA: You know, Campbell, you may have heard these stats, but these were quite surprising to me. More than 20 years now after Valdez, 40 percent of the nearly 30,000 residents of that sound area near Valdez still complain of some sort of mental health impact -- 40 percent. And that's more than 20 years later.
You see many of the same types of things in the short term. First of all, there's a lot of shock -- initial shock at what's happened here. Then there is a sort of acceptance of it. And also even, Campbell, a sort of heroic period. People coming together, television crews here, a lot of attention focused on them. That can be somewhat uplifting.
But almost predictably, that goes away after a period of time, that heroic period goes away, and you start to develop a much more corrosive community. People don't trust each other as much. There is fighting over what few jobs are left. And it becomes very difficult to sort of rebound.
So that's -- that's the sort of critical area that a lot of mental health professionals sort of target, trying to maintain that sense of community, trying to get rid of that distrust and make sure that people can really rely on each other.
BROWN: And, clearly, they need help with that. More outreach programs like we saw Randi reporting on a few minutes ago.
GUPTA: Right.
BROWN: Sanjay Gupta joining us tonight from New Orleans. As always, Sanjay, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
GUPTA: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: And also, let me also mention that Sanjay is going to have a lot more on New Orleans tonight, coming up on "A.C. 360" at 10:00 Eastern Time, right here on CNN.
And next up, the verdict is finally in on those scientists caught up in the climate-gate scandal. We're going to tell you what a brand- new report says.
And, also, yes, you love your kids. But do they actually make you happy? The latest research may surprise you -- when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Some answers tonight in the investigation surrounding the so-called climate-gate scandal. A British review panel has cleared the leading scientist at the center of the international controversy. Critics claimed hundreds of leaked e-mails prove the group was deliberately trying to manipulate data to prop-up global warming claims.
Here's what the lead investigator had to say about the allegation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUIR RUSSELL, IND. CLIMATE CHANGE E-MAIL REVIEW: We went through this very carefully and we concluded that these behaviors did not damage our judgment of the integrity, the honesty, the rigor, which they had operated as scientists.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, is climate-gate now over? And where does it leave the debate over global warming?
Joining us via Skype from Copenhagen, Denmark, Bjorn Lomborg, who is a professor at Copenhagen Business School and the author of "The Skeptical Environmentalist."
And also with us Bill Nye, the very well-known science guy, and vice president of the Planetary Society.
Bill, why don't you start and just give us kind of your take on this. "New York Times" calls today's ruling by the British panel a, quote, "sweeping exoneration of the scientist in question." How important was it that they be cleared here?
BILL NYE, "THE SCIENCE GUY": Well, it's important to people like me. It's important to all the scientists. I think people who don't believe in climate change, who deny climate change, I don't think it's going to affect them very much at all because they're already committed to their -- to their beliefs and this will be just one more brick in the great ziggurat of conspiracy for those people.
But for people who are in the business, for people who are, if you will, trying to change the world, it's a great thing. This was based on -- on, really, selective taking of phrases and twisting them -- taking them out of context. It's almost, as I said a few months ago, it's not just mean-spirited, it's irrational. So, I'm delighted this got done.
BROWN: And, Bjorn, this episode, climate-gate, totally overshadowed the historic climate change conference in Copenhagen and it really did some damage, didn't it?
BJORN LOMBORG, "THE SKEPTICAL ENVIRONMENTALIST": It certainly changed a lot of people's minds. And I think we need to establish two facts. First of all, this was never about whether global warming's real or not. It is. Bill and I agree, it's manmade, it is important, it is something we need to tackle.
But the point here is, it's much more about scientist's behavior, the circling of wagons, if you will, the portrayal of climate change as this monolithic polished entity that everybody agrees. And that was where you saw these scientists talking about deleting e-mails. We've seen that the largest primary data of the fundamental data that underlies most climate change research, namely, the temperature data of the last 150 years, has disappeared.
Now, they actually criticized -- the Muir review actually criticized them for doing so, although I don't think quite strongly enough. And the fundamental problem here is that what makes people turn off on climate change discussions. When they get the feeling that they're not hearing the whole truth but they're only hearing our edited version, if you will.
BROWN: So, even when they're cleared, that definitely, it's a credibility issue, that it's hard to -- especially when you're trying to communicate with the public, that can be so damaging.
But let me ask you both this question, because you're not in disagreement over the existence of global warming or the fact that it is manmade, as you pointed out there, Bjorn. But you are very much in disagreement over how to address the problem.
And let me start with Bjorn on that because -- Bjorn, our government, you know, seems very focused on cap-and-trade, on creating emission standards. And I know you think that that will not solve the problem. Kind of explain your position on this.
LOMBORG: Well, fundamentally, it's the same thing that we've seen the science discussion, we need to open up the policy discussion. As you say, the only game in town has been this "let's promise to cut a lot" in 10, 15, 20, maybe even 40 years from now. And then let's not do it. That's what we've been doing for the last 20 years.
And there's a good reason why this is not working, because fundamentally, green alternatives right now are quite expensive, which means it's fine to subsidize a little of it, but you're never going to get a lot of it because that becomes prohibitively expensive.
What we do need is to start talking about other alternatives, instead of the failed arguments. That's the real reason why Copenhagen failed, because nobody really wants to consign a large sum of their wealth to battle this problem.
BROWN: Right.
LOMBORG: We can get it if we can get cheap green energy. And so, it's about investing in research and development into green energy. Get it much cheaper. If it's cheaper than fossil fuels, everyone will get it.
BROWN: Right. OK. Bill, let me get your quick take on this as well?
NYE: Well, I agree. Sorry. I agree.
But I will go on to say that if the United States -- now, I'm in the United States, was born here, an engineer here, and all this, so on. But if the United States were to embrace green solar affordable, take for example, solar hot water, it's an open -- it's a very easy thing to do if we committed to it, and then wind energy, and then, also, this way to distribute it, the smart grid -- everybody in the world would follow. You wouldn't have this raving debate at the climate conference about who gets to give up what for whom, which is the big problem.
The smaller countries feel that they didn't cause this problem so why do they have to deal with it. If the United States led, the world would change. And, you know, I'm hopeful.
BROWN: All right, guys, we got to leave it there. Many thanks to both of you, Bjorn -- and Bill, I know you're coming back a little bit later for a very important segment we're doing at the end of the show.
Thank you, both. Appreciate it.
NYE: It's a real thing.
BROWN: Coming up next: New developments in the case involving those Russian spies. Will there maybe a secret spy swap in the works between Russian and the U.S.? We're going to have the latest from Moscow -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Five suspected Russian secret agents being held in Virginia and Massachusetts jails are being moved to New York. They're going to join the other five suspected Russian spies in a court hearing tomorrow. Also, CNN has learned that a researcher in jail in Russia after being caught spying for the U.S. could soon be part of a spy swap between the two countries.
CNN senior international correspondent Matthew Chance has been following the story from Moscow. Matthew, what do you know? Tell us.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, it's all very cloak and dagger, but speculation is right, that a prisoner swap is in the offing between Russia and the United States involving those 10 suspected spies accused in the U.S. of being part of an illegal spy ring.
Igor Sutyagin, a nuclear researcher jailed in Russia for spying for the CIA, says he and other convicted spies are to be exchanged for the 10 suspects in the U.S. in a Cold War-style spy swap, according to his family members and legal team. Sutyagin, who was sentenced to 15 years in a Russian penal colony in 2004 for passing nuclear secrets to the CIA, told his mother that he's seen a list of prisoners in Russian jails to be swapped. And that he's expecting to be expelled from Russia and sent to Britain as early as Thursday. Well, neither the U.S. nor Russian authorities are confirming any deal has been made. But the U.S. State Department has confirmed a high level meeting between U.S. and Russian diplomats is taking place in Washington. That is only fueling speculation that an imminent and dramatic spy swap is about to take place.
Back to you, Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Matthew chance. It is the stuff that good spy novels are made of. But our next guest is a veteran from the real world of espionage. Peter Earnest is executive director of the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. and he worked for the CIA for 35 years. I spoke with him earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Peter, welcome to you. Good to see you.
PETER EARNEST, INTERNATIONAL SPY MUSEUM: OK, good to be with you.
BROWN: So first of all, explain how unusual a spy swap really is.
EARNEST: Well, it wasn't certainly not all that unusual during the Cold War. You had things that were sometimes done quietly. Sometimes they were highly publicized like swapping Colonel Abel for Gary Powers when he was shot down in the U2 plane.
BROWN: As we just heard from Matthew Chance, I think the U.S. and Russian governments are being very tight-lipped about it right now. But based on the information we do have, do you think a spy swap is in the works?
EARNEST: I think it could well be. I mean, these reports are unconfirmed so far. But quite clearly, both governments seem to want to just treat this like a bump in the road and get on with it. Relations were improving. There was a good meeting apparently with President Obama and Medvedev. And so all the noises coming out of both capitals indicate they don't want to get -- they don't want to get mired down on this and certainly having a trial would do that.
BROWN: And you also say a swap also more likely because these people aren't U.S. citizens, right?
EARNEST: I think so, yes. In other words, I think if you take Rick Ames who spied, was a traitor, spied on the CIA and the U.S. government as well as Hanssen, FBI turncoat, they're U.S. citizens who betrayed their agencies and the U.S. government. We're not going to swap them for anybody. And the Russians would feel the same way. If they had a Russian who had spied against his own country, they would not swap him. I think the case we're looking at sounds like someone who is not an official, not an intelligence officer, but who was charged with spying, and it sounds like it was somewhat of a shaky case.
BROWN: And take us through exactly how a spy swap would happen. I mean, is there literally a meeting somewhere where these people are handed over basically?
EARNEST: Yes. This is sort of a -- this is a sort of a new-age spy swap, isn't it? But during the Cold War, a number of spy swaps took place at the Glienicke Bridge outside of Berlin. And the protocol would be worked out by the respective governments, perhaps a lawyer representing each individual. There would be a protocol, and the individuals would be brought to the bridge, carefully escorted into the middle. It's like a minuet. And one would walk to one side and one would walk to the other. That was the swap.
BROWN: Wow. I think part of what's so fascinating about this case in particular is the people involved. You have this woman, Anna Chapman, who is this beautiful redhead. Also, a social butterfly. Not exactly low profile. How unusual is that for a spy?
EARNEST: It's very unusual. We've never seen illegals, so- called illegals, in a network like this. What the bureau is calling a network. It sounds like the bureau's done a terrific job. They've been over them for the better part of the decade. And in mounting the surveillance they did, we now have the benefit of hindsight. They covered every move these people made. The problem in being in a network is once they got one of them, we don't know what the tip-off was. Once they got one of them, they could identify all the others.
Typically, during the Cold War, illegals were sort of a rifle shot approach. You're put in a singleton, maybe a couple. They would lie low like sleeper cells and they would be used for a special mission, something very sensitive. This is different than what we've ever seen.
BROWN: Peter -- Peter Earnest, joining us tonight. Peter, as always, thank you so much.
EARNEST: Good to be with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Coming up, if you live anywhere on the East Coast right now, you know it is scorching out there. But we had to ask, well, one of my producers had to ask, is it hot enough outside to actually fry an egg on the sidewalk? Yes. He tried on the steaming streets of New York to find out. We'll show you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Having children, sure, there is the love, but what happens when the little bundles of joy turn into the burdens of everyday life? We have some fascinating new research about that coming up. But first, Joe Johns is here with a look at some of the other stories we'll following tonight.
Hi, Joe. JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, the Justice Department announced charges today against five people suspected in an Al Qaeda plot to stage attacks in the U.S. and the United Kingdom. Prosecutors accuse the suspects of taking orders from senior Al Qaeda leadership in Pakistan. Some of the suspects are in custody already, including one linked to an alleged plot to bomb New York City subways.
Police in Los Angeles tonight announced a break in the "Grim Sleeper" serial murder case. They say they have their man. Lonnie David Franklin is under arrest, charged with 10 counts of murder. The suspect got the nickname of "Grim Sleeper" for taking long breaks between attacks. Police say he's responsible for multiple murders in south Los Angeles from 1985 to 2007.
The search continues tonight for two people missing after a tour boat collided with a barge near Philadelphia. The Coast Guard confirms 37 people were on board. Thirty-five of them have been rescued. It's not clear tonight whether the two missing people are crew members or passengers.
And can you possibly believe Ringo Starr is 70 years old? Yes, Ringo, Ringo Starr, ex-Beatle, musician in his own right, the rock legend who literally put the beat in the Beatles with his amazing powers of percussion, that means playing the drums. He's still going strong tonight. Starr performs at Radio City Music Hall. And Ringo's two birthday wishes we're told are peace and love.
BROWN: Of course, they are.
JOHNS: What else?
BROWN: Of course, they are. I know. All right.
JOHNS: Totally fitting.
BROWN: Happy birthday to him.
JOHNS: You bet.
BROWN: Well, Joe Johns for us.
Coming up next, the parent trap. Do kids really make us feel complete or just downright depressed? Some answers right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Parents often call the birth of a new baby the happiest moment in their lives. A newborn typically called a bundle of joy. But is that what they still think once reality sets in?
Well, research shows that parents actually are not happier than people without children. In fact, in many cases, they are less happy. The latest findings, according to this research, are in this week's "New York" magazine cover story, "Why Parents Hate Parenting." Is there anything to it? Earlier, I spoke with Po Bronson who's the author of "Nurture Shock: New Thinking About Children," about this very subject.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Po Bronson, welcome to you. Great to see you.
PO BRONSON, AUTHOR, "NURTURE SHOCK": Thank you. Nice to be with you again.
BROWN: And, Po, you have written extensively on parenting and you're a parent yourself. I personally was a little bit offended when I saw the cover of this magazine. How do you feel about essentially being told that you're not happy or not as happy as you could be because you're a father?
BRONSON: I thought it was a riveting article but like a lot of people, I felt like I wish these scientists had asked me because I happen to be very happy doing the job of parenting, living with my children, it's improved my overall life satisfaction tremendously. And, like a lot of people, I'm suspicious of these scientists. And I do know this body of work quite well.
BROWN: But because you've studied it, I really want to get your take on it, because it's clearly hitting a nerve. I mean, I for one, when I saw the cover of this magazine, basically dropped what I was doing to read the article immediately. I wanted to hear the reactions of other parents. People really want to talk about this.
BRONSON: Yes, and the nerve that it's hitting is that a lot of people are grinding it out as parents. Their day-to-day tasks of ferrying their kids from school to activities and disciplining their kids and getting their kids to eat and be diaper trained is exhausting and wearing them out, and they're kind of losing the joy of their life. And a lot of parents are living that way. And there's things the science does say that it can help them do that better.
BROWN: So according to the article, I think about 40 percent of the arguments between married couples are about their kids. And this is the source of a lot of that angst that it focuses on.
BRONSON: Right.
BROWN: Are you surprised by that? And, by and large, and what effect do kids have on a marriage? I mean, what does the science say?
BRONSON: Ok, so that body of work by Mark Cummings out of Notre Dame, I talked with you about that larger body of work before, Campbell. And it does look a lot at not traditionally division of labor-type families where the dad is the disciplinarian but the mom spends most of the time with the kids and she stays home and cooks and dad works. You don't see that many squabbles about kids because the roles are clearly defined. It's in the co-parenting couples, where they're always trying to sort of even it out 50/50. What did you do? And what did I do? And where do the kids have to go? That there's a lot of logistics to work out. A lot of labor to be divided and a lot of squabbling over that labor. And a lot of it in front of the kids themselves. So I wasn't surprised by the number, but I realized that a lot of people are surprised. We argue in front of our kids about our kids itself. And this does take a toll. Marital satisfaction for these sort of co-parenting-style couples is lower than for traditional couples on average.
BROWN: How much of that is about our expectations? I mean, talk about the expectations people have about parenting before they actually become parents.
BRONSON: That's a great point, Campbell, because there are other studies that show the amount of experience a person has with real child raising. Maybe you took care of your sister's kids or the kids on the street and you baby-sat for them or been a baby-sitter yourself. The more you've been trained to know what to expect, the happier you are when it does happen. Or one might say, the less overwhelmed or shocked you are by when it does happen. It's when -- but in our society today, a lot of couples get married and they move to the suburbs. And so the people who don't have kids aren't around as many kids that much and are sort of surprised what happens when they do get kids themselves.
BROWN: I guess the bottom line here, though, is that how happy the parent is does have a direct relationship on the happiness of the child, doesn't it?
BRONSON: Absolutely. A great work by Alan Golinski (ph) did polls of kids and they found that kids -- the number one thing that parents think their kids want is more time with the parents. And the parents are really stressed out about giving more time to the kids. But that's not what the kids wanted. What the kids want most of all is for the parent to be less stressed out when they are together.
And the lesson here is simple. You know, baby-sitters are less expensive than marriage counselors. Get some baby-sitters. Get out on the town. Make sure as a couple you're having some joy. And then let that shine on your kids and they'll be fine.
BROWN: A great note to end on. Po Bronson who wrote the book on parenting literally, one of my favorite books, "Nurture Shock." Read eat. Definitely Po, great to see you always. Thanks so much.
BRONSON: Thank you, Campbell.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. But up next, tonight's "Punch Line." You never know or it's never rather too hot to laugh.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our number weather story tonight will come as no surprise to anyone in the northeast. It is hot. It's really hot. Hot as in buckled roads, blackouts and bending train tracks. We had triple- digit temperatures all the way from Raleigh, North Carolina, to Newark, New Jersey today, and it ain't over yet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the bright lights and concrete here in Times Square easily puts the temperature up to 100 degrees or so. Another hot day that tested everyone's endurance and tested whether the power companies can keep the power turned on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Extreme measures to cut down on extreme demand for electricity. New York's power company pleaded with customers to conserve energy. Office buildings voluntarily shut down banks of elevators, lowered the lights, turned up the thermostats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In Washington, D.C., paramedics were on track to field nearly 300 more calls than usual.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: People are trying to keep cool any way they can, heading to the beaches, the pools and water parks. Heat advisories are in effect in several states until tonight. At least two deaths are blamed on the heat wave.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: You heard the saying a thousand times before, it is so hot, you could fry an egg. Those record-break temperatures today have topped 100 degrees in New York City. That can't be hot enough to scramble one up, can it? Our producer Ed Meagher determined to learn the truth went outside into the heat, eggs in hand, to actually test the famous claim. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED MEAGHER, CNN PRODUCER: Who here thinks I can fry an egg in the sidewalk? Here goes the first egg. We take the nice dark surface. Oh, that one came out a little better.
That one looks like it's getting a little white. A lot of people have been telling me I'm doing this wrong, that I should be doing this in the middle of the pavement. Find a nice smooth spot. And there we go.
Campbell, you got to come here. We're trying to see if the expression hot enough to fry an egg is a true expression so --
BROWN: Yes.
MEAGHER: You can see the mess I made of the New York --
BROWN: Are you going to --
MEAGHER: Absolutely, security has already asked me several times.
BROWN: Is that bacon too?
MEAGHER: That's bacon bacon. BROWN: Oh.
MEAGHER: My girlfriend is vegan so -- so I've heard the expression used two ways. Hot enough to fry an egg on the sidewalk and hot enough to fry an egg on the hood of a car.
The road thing and sidewalk thing isn't working out. I'm going to try and hail a taxicab right now and see if I have any luck with the second option.
I was going to see if you would let me cook an egg on the hood of your car. Would you let me try to cook an egg on the hood of your car?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TAXICAB DRIVER: Sure, why not.
MEAGHER: Yes? This is for science.
Whoa.
We got some egg cooking here. It's hard to tell because it's a New York City yellow cab and the yolk is yellow. I don't think a fried egg is very appetizing on a hot day anyway.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And because he was already booked for the show to talk about climate-gate, we brought back Bill Nye, "The Science Guy," right now.
Bill, you're here to answer my producer Ed's burning question. Just how hot does it actually have to be to get that egg to fry?
BILL NYE, "THE SCIENCE GUY": Well, I think it will work if one's a little more careful. Under, if I may, ideal cold cooking conditions, I was able to fry this egg. So I did it at about 130 Fahrenheit, about 55 Celsius.
BROWN: Right.
NYE: And it worked fine. The problem is, if you're going to go into the egg cooking business, you're at a diner or something, it takes about 10 minutes. And I don't know --
BROWN: So that was the problem, he was just too impatient? He didn't stand out there long enough?
NYE: Well, let me go on to say two other modifications I would make to his technique.
BROWN: Right. Yes.
NYE: I would use some sort of cooking oil. Butter is a very traditional thing with fried eggs.
BROWN: Right. NYE: Olive oil, which I recommend to people, olive oil. And then you have better conduction between the hot surface and the bottom of the egg. You know, the egg is a little discus, a little thick, so it won't flow into the pours of your sidewalk. Or that's pretty smooth or like that rough surface, that's going to be a little tough right there. So, the other thing, you traditionally cook an egg at about 250 Fahrenheit. I mean 250 Celsius. I'm sorry, 250 Fahrenheit, about 125 Celsius. And so you're just a little too cold. But it will cook if you are patient.
Now, the other thing you might want to do when you go into the diner/egg cooking business on the sidewalks during the heat wave is a --
BROWN: Right. Yes. A final tip here, Bill.
NYE: An egg ring, the same thing that gives the famous breakfast sandwich the nice round egg.
BROWN: Oh.
NYE: By the way, if all our pavement was white and the roofs were white, rather, you would have a lot less trouble with climate change. It's a real thing.
BROWN: You know, why don't we do that?
NYE: Thank you very much.
BROWN: Bill Nye, "The Science Guy," I learn so much from you, Bill. Thank you so much for joining us tonight.
We'll see you next time. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. But up next, tonight's "Punch Line."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And now it's time for our "Punch Line." The best of late night in 60 seconds or less.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY FALLON, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH JIMMY FALLON": Fourteen patients broke out of an Internet addiction clinic in china last week. Do you know how they did it? Control, alt, escape.
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE COLBERT REPORT": Wal-Mart employees can now earn college credit by loading trucks and ringing up purchases. Best of all, Wal-Mart course work teaches business skills so that one day students can realize their dream of opening their own company that gets crushed by Wal-Mart.
JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": According to this report, this is so bizarre. The oil in the gulf is now heating up in the sun and actually cooking the birds that are covered in the oil. Isn't that awful? It's horrible. Scientists believe they may have inadvertently stumbled on Colonel Sanders' secret recipe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that's all for tonight. Thanks for joining us everybody.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
