Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Novak, Hunt & Shields

Tom Daschle Discusses Sweeping Changes to Hit Senate

Aired May 26, 2001 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AL HUNT, CO-HOST: I'm Al Hunt. Robert Novak and I will question the soon-to-be majority leader of the United States Senate.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: He is Democratic Senator Thomas Daschle of South Dakota.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Senator James Jeffords traveled from Washington to Burlington in his home state of Vermont to say that his life-long allegiance to the Republican Party had become intolerable.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAMES JEFFORDS (R), VERMONT: Increasingly, I find myself in disagreement with my party. I understand that many people are more conservative than I am, and they form the Republican Party. Given the changing nature of the national party, it has become a struggle for our leaders to deal with me and for me to deal with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Senator Jeffords will nominally be an Independent, but in fact will join the Democratic caucus. Within two weeks, that will give the Democrats control of the Senate and its committees, and transform Tom Daschle from minority leader to majority leader.

He has been a member of Congress for 22 years, a senator for 14 years and Democratic floor leader for six years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, congratulations.

SEN. THOMAS DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: Thank you very much, Bob.

NOVAK: You have been very critical in the last few years of the Republican leader, Senator Lott, the way he has handled the running of the Senate. Would you tell us, now that you're going to be majority leader, how you will do it differently specifically and briefly?

DASCHLE: Well, Bob, I think the word is "inclusion." I think as long as people are included, as long as they feel as if they've got a stake in the process, I think we can do a lot more on a bipartisan basis. Both Republican and Democratic caucuses need to feel invested. There were many times when Democrats didn't feel invested in the last few years in the legislative process, in the agenda, in all of the workings of the Senate.

So I think it's very important for us to be able to work together. I think we've gotten off to a great start this year, by and large. I think you've seen what we can do when both parties feel invested, and I hope to extend that environment as we move to this new phase.

NOVAK: The people in the Republican leadership, sir, tell me that, although you talk a lot about bipartisanship and there are some people who are working hard on the Democratic side for bipartisanship, you never wanted bipartisan agreement, even on something as liberal as the education bill.

Are you going to, now that you are majority leader, change your ways and not be quite as partisan on some of these issues?

DASCHLE: Well, Bob, I'd just ask you to look at what's happened this year. First of all, we got an historic power-sharing agreement. Trent Lott and I worked on that in a bipartisan way for months, and I think it has borne out. It has been a very good success.

We passed the bankruptcy bill in a bipartisan way. We passed the campaign finance reform bill in a bipartisan way. We've taken up nominations for the Cabinet in a bipartisan way, even though some of us have objections with some of the more controversial nominees.

So I would say the record is fairly replete with all kinds of examples of bipartisan efforts from the leadership on both sides.

NOVAK: Let me give a specific thing, sir. You and other Democrats were critical of the Republican leadership of the Senate for not allowing a clear, open vote on a lot of proposals by former President Clinton when he was president.

Would you guarantee that all of President Bush's proposals, including for example privatization of Social Security, will be given an open vote, up or down, on the Senate floor?

DASCHLE: I'll tell you this, we're going to have an open process. I can't conceive of using the filibuster and the cloture opportunities that a majority leader has available to him to stymie debate. We criticized that in the minority. We're not going to be criticized for it now that we're in the majority.

HUNT: Senator, before you get to be majority leader, you were negotiating with a Republican group of five, I guess, over the new rules. What's the major sticking point?

DASCHLE: Well, I would say that the most significant sticking point will probably be what happens in the committees, Al. Obviously, when you have this realignment, one of the big questions is, what will happen to committee staff? What will happen to members... (CROSSTALK)

HUNT: Do you figure the Democrats will have a one-person majority on all committees?

DASCHLE: In the colloquy that Trent and I were involved with when we passed the power-sharing agreement, we stipulated that any change by one vote in the full Senate would dictate a one-vote margin in the committees themselves. So we've already laid that out.

HUNT: Some Republicans are saying that before they get any agreement, they want an agreement from you that first batch of judicial nominees will reach the Senate floor for action. Will you give them that agreement?

DASCHLE: Well, I've not heard any kind of a demand of that kind, so I don't know that I'm prepared to comment right now.

We're going to work with all of the agenda of the Bush administration -- nominations and legislation. We obviously are not going to simply be a rubber stamp. We're going to be trying to put a balance to whatever it is we have to take up. But I do think that we want to show real fairness, and that includes judicial nominees.

HUNT: Very quickly, Senator, who will be the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Pat Leahy or Joe Biden?

DASCHLE: That's up to them. Obviously, this is one of the big questions that we'll be facing right off the bat, who will chair many of the committees. I don't think that issue has been resolved yet.

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, your counterpart, Senator Lott, was talking about you on CNN this week, and he had some interesting things to say. Let's just listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TRENT LOTT (R-MS), MAJORITY LEADER: Well, he's been going to find that sometimes being majority leader is probably tougher than being minority leader. And he'll also see that some of the tactics that they used on bills like the tax relief package are not helpful, and he will not want to see those same tactics employed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: You could read that as a threat that Senator Lott is going to put in amendment after amendment, even though they might not pass on some of your legislation, as the Democrats did on the tax bill this past week, even though, of course, none of it was going to pass, just delayed the bill.

Do you think that would be fair of Senator Lott, if he used your tactics?

DASCHLE: Absolutely, absolutely. The minority has whatever tactics available to them that they can employ, and if they choose to use the same tactics we used, how could I fault them for it?

I would hope that it would never get to that. I would hope that I would be inclusive enough, and I would hope that we would feel invested enough in the process where they wouldn't feel the need to resort to that. We resorted to it because we were shut out. We were shut out of the writing of the bill; we were shut out in the process, because they used reconciliation; we were really shut out in the negotiations all the way through. I'm not going to shut out our Republican colleagues, and I hope that's going to a major difference.

HUNT: Senator, the GOP and the president got the tax cut they wanted, but already conservatives are saying there's going to be another tax cut to take care of some things we couldn't get to. Would you go along with another tax cut bill in this Congress?

DASCHLE: I'd be very apprehensive about how we can afford another tax bill. We're already committing over $1.4 trillion out to this tax cut. That's what the budget calls for.

So I think it would be very difficult for us to do that with additional tax cuts, knowing that we've already locked out many of the important priorities in education and other matters, and knowing that we've already raided Medicare and Social Security.

HUNT: So even something that would be popular with your party, like the research and development credit which wasn't in the first bill, that won't be acted on then in this Congress?

DASCHLE: Well, I said, I'm going to be very apprehensive about looking at additional tax cuts. We're going to want to extend the economic provisions, but they're going to need offsets.

HUNT: OK, fine. Well, Senator, we're going to take a break now.

But we'll be back in just a minute to talk to the soon-to-be majority leader of the Senate about, is there an ideological litmus test for judges?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, the new soon-to-be chairman of the Court Subcommittee on the Judiciary Committee, Senator Charles Schumer of New York, has said, "No more of these right-wing judges getting through." That sounds to me like an ideological test on federal judges. Are you in favor of that?

DASCHLE: I'm not. I don't think there should be a litmus test, Bob. But I do think that, while we expect the president to appoint or to nominate conservative judges, I think that there is a mainstream component here that we will come to expect. I don't think we can expect to see far-right judges enjoy the broad-based support they're going to need to get confirmed.

So we want integrity, we want diversity and we do want moderation. We just don't want to see them from the extreme elements on either the far right or the far left. NOVAK: But is that ruling out just plain, old conservative judges?

DASCHLE: Not at all.

NOVAK: Is that ruling out judges like Justice Scalia and Justice...

(CROSSTALK)

DASCHLE: No, obviously, I supported Scalia. So I think that there were many occasions when I've supported most of the judges who are serving on the Supreme Court today.

But I don't think that we want to create this ideological bent that I think could be very problematic for us.

NOVAK: Just to follow that through, there was a signal given -- some people thought it was a signal -- last week when, in the last phases of the Republican Senate, Ted Olson was confirmed the U.S. solicitor general with 47 negative votes by the Democratic Party. It was a party-line vote. All those people, I'm sure, did not study the case.

I don't want to relive the American Spectator/Arkansas Project question, but that was an ideological vote, wasn't it?

DASCHLE: Well, I can see why you don't want to relive the Arkansas Project, because I think that's a glaring example of the kind of thing that shouldn't be a part of anybody's resume...

NOVAK: He shouldn't have been on...

DASCHLE: ... if he's going to serve on the -- I don't think he should have, I don't. I disagree with those who have advocated him. I think he's -- I think it's disconcerting to see somebody with that much of a political agenda serve in that sensitive a legal position.

HUNT: Senator, you've said you're going to bring a patients' bill of rights to the floor soon after you take over. Is that the McCain-Edwards-Kennedy bill? Would that be the bill? Do you have the votes to overcome the filibuster?

DASCHLE: I think we're very close, Al, and I think once we get the bill on the floor we're going to pick up even more support.

HUNT: Right bill?

DASCHLE: It will be the McCain-Edwards-Kennedy bill. I think it's an excellent bill. It shows the compromise and the movement that we made. As you know, even last year we had the necessary votes for the original patients' bill of rights to pass, the Dingell bill. And I suspect that we'll have the votes in this case, as well.

HUNT: On another matter, Senator, Chairman-to-be Ted Kennedy said he's going to bring a bill increasing the minimum wage to the Senate floor. Republicans insist that business tax cuts have to be part of that. Will you buy off on some kind of a deal like that?

DASCHLE: Well, we'll look at anything, of course. But here we will have just passed a $1.35 trillion tax cut, and right out of the box, almost virtually the week following, they're going to be calling for additional tax cuts.

So I think that there is a limit, and it goes to the earlier question: How do you pay for it? If they can find the offsets, we'll certainly look at whatever suggestions they have.

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, as soon as Senator Jeffords indicated he was going to leave the Republican Party, there was immediate speculation that Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who's been voting with the Republicans on key issues, might leave the Democratic Party, so our Judy Woodruff talked to him about it, and let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: I thought some about it, but there's a lot of things that I have to take into consideration.

This class warfare stuff is just something that's come along in the last few years in the Democratic Party, and I hope it's not going to be permanent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Well, that's a sort of a "no," he wasn't going to shift, but he didn't say "never." Is this something you have to keep an eye on, that he doesn't walk over on the other side and you're back to being the minority leader again?

Are you going to have to keep a very -- are you going to have to be a little nicer to Zell Miller, who I understand you were very upset with when he introduced the Bush tax bill?

DASCHLE: Well, I think Zell has said publicly that the treatment that he's gotten in our caucus and from me directly has been acceptable and certainly in keeping with his expectations.

So I don't feel there's any question Zell Miller is going to stay in our caucus, because that's where he's the most comfortable. He's been a Democrat all of his life. He was a Democratic governor; he's now a Democratic senator.

I have indicated to him on many occasions that I'd love to give him even more assignments, more roles, more responsibility. That's up to him.

But I do want him to continue to know he's very, very welcome in our caucus, as is anyone else. We're going to continue to include and reach out as we have all through my tenure as leader.

NOVAK: Is it true that you gave him a little something already this week which hasn't been made public to make sure that he didn't leave the caucus after Jim Jeffords made his switch? Is that true?

DASCHLE: A little something?

NOVAK: Yes.

DASCHLE: Like what?

NOVAK: I don't know. That's why I asked you.

DASCHLE: No, I don't have anything to give...

NOVAK: You didn't give him anything here?

DASCHLE: I did not, no, not at all.

HUNT: Senator, describe your relationship with President Bush so far this year.

DASCHLE: Well, I think it's been an on-again-off-again relationship. We had a great early relationship. I think it was a very promising one. For whatever reason, I guess, I suppose it was because he didn't feel he really needed to involve Democratic leadership in the House and the Senate, he chose not to make any contact with us for the last several months.

HUNT: You had no contact, the Democratic leader of the Senate and the president of the United States didn't talk over the last two months?

DASCHLE: Correct.

HUNT: Is that unusual?

DASCHLE: I think it's unusual. I called him a couple of days ago and indicated that I really hoped that, now that we're in this new situation, I can work more closely with him. It was a very cordial conversation. We're going to pick up where we left off.

HUNT: Did he suggest he will be in more frequent contact with you now that you're the majority leader?

DASCHLE: Well, he did suggest that he recognized the importance of working together, and I expect that we will. I think it's a necessity, I don't think it's an option.

HUNT: We're going to take a break right now, but we'll be back in just a minute with the big question for Tom Daschle.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: The big question for Tom Daschle: Senator, there have been huge debates between Republicans and Democrats this year on taxes and budgets, a budding debate on defense. But Bill Clinton and Al Gore, the two party leaders for the last eight years, have been silent throughout. Would you like to have Clinton and Gore weigh in on some of these issues now, or do you think it's better if they remain quiet for a while?

DASCHLE: It's up to them. We welcome them, of course. They're spokespeople for our party. Ultimately, I think you're going to see more visibility from both of them. But they have to decide...

HUNT: Soon, do you think soon?

DASCHLE: I don't think so. I think in both cases, they probably feel that they like private life for a while. They've been at it for a long period of time. This respite is probably good for both of them. But they'll be back, and you'll hear a lot more from them in the future.

NOVAK: Senator Daschle, it's been very difficult for a majority of the leader of the Senate to run for president while he is majority leader. Senator Lyndon Johnson tried it, and he did a really bad job of running for president. Bob Dole found he couldn't do both when he resigned as majority leader.

Now that you are majority leader, would you say that, if you wanted to run for president -- we're not saying you do -- but being majority leader, do you think, just about rules out any run for president?

DASCHLE: I have said all along, Bob, that I'm not going to make any decisions about that until after the 2002 election. My job now is to be the best majority leader I can be. My job is to recruit good candidates. My job is to raise the resources to stay in the majority, and that is my intention.

NOVAK: No, you misunderstood my question, Senator. It was strictly a hypothetical question. I meant, does doing these extra duties make it impossible, so you wouldn't even have to make a decision?

(CROSSTALK)

DASCHLE: Well, the answer is, I don't know. All I know is, I've got a job to do in the next 18 months, and I'm going to do it.

NOVAK: Senator Tom Daschle, thank you very much, and good luck with your new responsibilities.

DASCHLE: Thank you, Bob.

NOVAK: Al Hunt and I will be back with a comment after these messages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: (AUDIO GAP) that inclusiveness. But Tom Daschle really practices it, and that could be his operating style. That's why someone like Zell Miller, who otherwise would be off the reservation totally, I think, knows that he's treated fairly by Tom Daschle.

NOVAK: Of course, Al, the Republicans say he doesn't include them. And they get enraged when he talks about bipartisanship because they consider him one of the least bipartisan people they have seen. I think that Senator Daschle -- it's going to be very interesting to see if he really is as tough a majority leader as he's been a minority leader.

HUNT: Bob, I think that's the right wing of the Republican Party. If you talk to the John McCains or even the Thad Cochrans, they will tell you he's very, very -- he knows he's going to put together a centrist coalition. It won't include Larry Craig and Don Nickles, but it will include a vast majority of the Senate.

NOVAK: Al, what's going to be really interesting is how they handle the judicial nominations. He says he doesn't want a litmus test on conservatives, but he's against extreme right-wingers. One man's conservative is another man's extreme right-winger. He did say, however, that he considered Justice Scalia a conservative, a non- right-winger. He may have to eat those words if Scalia is nominated for chief justice.

I'm Robert Novak.

HUNT: And I'm Al Hunt.

NOVAK: Coming up in one-half hour on "RELIABLE SOURCES," how did the media cover the defection of Senator James Jeffords?

And at 7:00 p.m. on CAPITAL GANG, fallout from the Jeffords decision with former vice presidential candidate Jack Kemp, and a Memorial Day weekend visit with the commandant of the Marine Corps, General James Jones.

HUNT: Thanks for joining us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com