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CNN Novak, Hunt & Shields

Interview With Senator Joseph Biden

Aired April 13, 2002 - 17:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: I'm Robert Novak. Al Hunt and I will question the leading Democratic voice in Congress on international affairs.

AL HUNT, CO-HOST: He is Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUNT (voice-over): Yasser Arafat issued a statement condemning, quote, "all kinds of terrorist activity, using violence and terrorism against civilians," end quote. The Palestinians specifically condemned the latest suicide bombing that killed six people in Jerusalem. That event had the effect of postponing a Saturday meeting with Arafat by U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell. Arafat's anti- terrorist statement opened the way to hold a meeting with Powell on Sunday.

The secretary of state failed in a Friday meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to get an immediate withdrawal of Israeli military forces from the Palestinian territories.

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Israel is waging a war against the infrastructure of Palestinian terrorism, and Israel hopes to conclude this war very soon.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We believe as a friend of Israel, we have to take note of the long-term strategic consequences of the incursions that are under way, an its effect on other nations in the region and the international climate.

HUNT: Joseph Biden, elected to the Senate at age 29, is now serving his 30th year there. A former chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, he became Foreign Relations chairman nearly a year ago when Democrats took control of the Senate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HUNT: Senator Biden is joining us from Wilmington, Delaware.

Senator, has President Bush put his credibility and world leadership on the line in the Middle East now?

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: Well, in a sense he has, Al. I think one of the things that is going to come out of this is that I think the president is going to reach the conclusion that being tactical, as opposed to strategic, in this affair is not the wisest thing. By "tactical," I mean what time the Palestinians say what, how the Israelis pull out. I think that's a very dangerous position for the president to put himself in with no certainty that he's going to get a response.

And I think the president has been very reluctant to get this involved. I think it's time for him to sort of move to a more strategic view here and talk about what everybody says they have in common and basically to cut to the chase here; do, in effect, what his father did and essentially establish and call for a new international conference like Madrid 10 years ago. Because something drastic has to happen to get us off this dime that we're on now, this vortex that's just sucking everybody in and making, I think, the president look not as effectual as he can be.

HUNT: Well, Mr. Chairman, do you think, then, that Secretary Powell should stay in the Middle East until something like a conference of that sort is agreed upon? Or do you think he ought to give the parties an ultimatum, come up with some kind of a first-step agreement in the next day or two or I'm going home? And what would be the ramifications if he left with nothing?

BIDEN: Well, this is kind of delicate for me because I don't want to be critical of the administration while they're in the midst of what is their major initiative in the region, but let me answer you this way.

I'm not going to second-guess whether or not Secretary Powell should come home now or not, but I do think that they should look at the following three or four things.

One, you had, last Monday, Sharon say he's willing to go anywhere, anyplace to meet with moderate Arabs. You have the Saudis having pushed their plan that Sharon said had some merit to it. You had us signing on to the notion that the underlying notion of that plan, the Europeans as well.

It seems to me now is the time to get the Europeans and the Arabs in the deal here, not to negotiate the detail, but to actually get the parties at a table like what happened in Madrid, to lay out the framework for how we proceed from here.

It's got to be bigger than this tactical call. The Tenet plan made a lot of sense at the time, and the Mitchell plan made a lot of sense at the time. They are no longer relevant, in my view.

HUNT: But, Mr. Chairman, those Arab states say they won't sit down until the Israelis withdraw. Right now there is tremendous popularity within Israel for what Sharon is doing. They think it will buy them some temporary respite at least.

Why is there any reason to think that Sharon is going to withdraw? BIDEN: Well, it's not so much whether Sharon would withdraw, it's whether or not we can get each of the parties to acknowledge that there is an outline for a final settlement. The thing that the president has been reluctant to do is do what Clinton did and they've criticized and risked doing, and that is lay out the broad outline for a final settlement.

I think the reason things have become so desperate, Al, is the Palestinians don't believe Sharon has any intention of actually accommodating an independent Palestinian state. And Sharon doesn't believe and the Israelis don't believe that Arafat has any indication or any desire, any willingness to establish an independent Israel that's secure.

And so, we've got to somehow move it beyond that. Sixty seven percent of the people, both the Palestinians and the Israelis, think that they can have states side by side. And I think there's got to be a broader outline for what can be accomplished here and a willingness of everybody to sit down at a table and do it.

And I think that's the place we should be using our diplomatic pressure.

NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to get your view, if you don't mind, on Prime Minister Sharon. The president, through a spokesman, has repeatedly called him a man of peace.

Do you think Sharon is a man of peace? And do you think he should withdraw?

BIDEN: I think he is the leader of the Israel people. I'm not going to characterize him one way or another.

Look, let's face it. The reason why everybody is so upset at Sharon going in is not -- into the West Bank, is not so much because anyone doubts his right to go and rout out terrorists. The question is, in many people's mind, is he in there to rout out terrorism, to make the West Bank safe for Israeli occupation, or is it to make it safe for being able to withdraw?

And that's the bottom line in most people's minds. If this were Barak doing the same thing, you wouldn't have people questioning his ability to move in there and go after these nests of terror -- because they do exist.

And so, Bob, that's why I say, it has to go beyond this question of when he withdraws, how he withdraws, if he withdraws.

BIDEN: The president of the United States and the rest of the world leadership has to say, look, there is going -- we have all agreed that there should be an independent Israel, an independent Palestinian state, recognized by the Arab states. We're all signing on to that.

And two things have to be laid out. One, if the idea that there's going to be a right of return to the state of Israel is a non- starter, a right of return to a Palestinian state, fine. And secondly, the idea that all those settlements are going to remain is a non-starter. And this is what we've got to just say straight up.

And I don't know how we get through this morass, Bob, of moving from incremental initiative to incremental initiative.

NOVAK: Senator Biden, the Israeli government has said repeatedly, and a lot of your colleagues in the Senate have agreed with it, that the people who are doing the suicide bombings are very similar to the Al Qaeda, that Yasser Arafat is similar to Osama bin Laden.

But there is a dissenting view that was expressed on the NewsHour with Jim Lehrer by Thursday by an Israeli I think you know, a member of the Knesset, former justice minister Yossi Beilin. I'm going to put his quote up on the screen.

He said, quote, speaking of the Palestinians, "We're speaking about a national movement. It is not a group of terrorists, like Al Qaeda with bin Laden. It's a big group, it's a big nation with several millions of people who wanted their state, and they chose Yasser Arafat 30 years ago."

Do you think that is a correct assessment?

BIDEN: I do. But that does not mean that the people who are orchestrating the bombings, those individuals, those groups, are not like Al Qaeda; they are. The Palestinian people are not like Al Qaeda. So I think Yossi is absolutely correct in his assessment.

And the fact of the matter is, I don't think that Arafat has, at any point -- and I've, Bob, known him like you have for 29 years. I have been alone with him. I have been in the company of just several others of him. I was asked to actually negotiate a small peace (ph) with him on security. I don't think he has any intention of renouncing the prospect of the elimination of Israel.

I don't think he's the guy that's going to make this settlement. But the bad news is, the Palestinian people have chosen him.

NOVAK: Let me...

BIDEN: So the reason why I disagree with the idea of eliminating Arafat as part of the equation is that's who the Palestinians have chosen.

NOVAK: Let me ask you a quick specific question, and you might call it a tactical question, I'm afraid. The Israelis -- the Palestinians claim the Israelis have massacred several Palestinians in Jenin. The Israelis deny it, but they won't let any of the international media in to see.

Do you think they should let the media in to see what happened in Jenin?

BIDEN: Yes, I do. For their own sake, I think they should, yes. HUNT: Mr. Chairman, this week, as you know, Benjamin Netanyahu was in Washington. He is lobbying against President Bush's efforts to bring pressure on Israel.

He was invited up to the Senate while Secretary Powell was over in the Middle East. Was that appropriate for some senators to have Mr. Netanyahu up there while the secretary was on his mission?

BIDEN: Bibi's an old friend, but I think not. I was asked to hold a hearing, Al, this past week and have Bibi as a witness, and I refused to do it on the grounds that I thought it was totally inappropriate. I'm not Newt Gingrich. I'm not going to go ahead and, while a president has a major initiative and his chief diplomat in the region, invite someone, notwithstanding the fact that I like him, to testify to undercut that initiative.

HUNT: So Senator Lieberman's invitation...

BIDEN: I think that is inappropriate.

HUNT: So Senator Lieberman's invitation was inappropriate?

BIDEN: I think it was inappropriate to give a forum to Bibi in the United States Capitol for the purpose of countering the initiative of the president of the United States at this moment. There is plenty of time to do that when Powell comes home.

I just don't think -- I have been a senator 29 years. I have never trespassed on a president's right to engage in diplomacy while he is abroad or his chief foreign policy correspondent is abroad. I think that's a bad way to do business.

NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, we're going to have to take a break, but I want to ask you one quick question. If Mr. Arafat is not going to be the person who is going to make these agreements, who does the United States talk to on the Palestinian side?

BIDEN: I think the United States talks to the Arab world, starting with the Saudis, the Egyptians and the Jordanians. And they are the ones that create the consensus and force Arafat into the position to negotiate a real deal.

The real breakthrough here, Bob, it was a big deal, the Saudis saying, "We will recognize the right of Israel to exist, conditioned upon something along the lines of the U.N. resolutions." And that's what Arafat has said -- I mean, excuse me, that's what Sharon has now said. Let's call them all to the table and make them respond to their very assertions.

NOVAK: OK, we're going to take a break. And when we come back, we'll ask Senator Biden about Saddam Hussein's future and the prospects for an attack on Baghdad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Mr. Chairman, the Bush administration has made little secret of its desire to topple Saddam Hussein. Some say now, with the Mideast situation, that that has to put on hold. Others, including the Wall Street editorial page this week, say what we ought to do is get out of the Middle East and march to Baghdad now. Which is your view?

BIDEN: My view is the administration does not have a plan sufficient to act now. They will not move now. I think that they have been chastened by the realization of how deeply suspect the legitimacy of our friends are in the region -- and that is the Saudis, the Egyptians and others -- and how much each of those states and those leaders, view themselves as being in jeopardy.

So I think they're balancing a whole different set of concerns right now, Al. I don't think they have, nor should they, give the objective of toppling Saddam. But I would be dumbfounded if, A, this split administration on this issue has reached a game plan yet. And, B, I believe to the extent they're moving in that direction, that has been put more on hold.

We haven't even finished Afghanistan yet, for Lord's sake. And I don't think they're ready to take that initiative.

HUNT: Well, let me ask you about Afghanistan, Senator. You were on this show exactly six months ago today. And after correctly predicting that the Taliban's days were numbered, you said after that was over, you said, and I quote, "If we walk away from Afghanistan, leave it in chaos after we have succeeded against Al Qaeda, it is a time bomb waiting to erupt," end quote.

That seems very prophetic, as Afghanistan seems to be in chaos. Now, what should be do to detonate that time bomb?

BIDEN: Well, what we should do is we should prevent the time bomb from blowing up by making a further commitment of U.S. forces in the region, expand the international force beyond Kabul.

Look, I don't know a single, solitary person who believes that there is the ability of the Karzai government to transition into the democratic kind of regime that we hope for with this grand council that is supposed to be called this summer, absent more security on the ground. When I came back from spending five days on the ground there about a month and a half ago now, I spoke to the president and others and said, look, two big things are clear to me. One, Al Qaeda is still there. The Taliban is still there. It's going to take a great deal more effort to secure that country.

And I'm fearful that the reluctance of us to be part of any national -- any responsibility in any international force, has now scared off any international force. The Turks are worried about the hand-off from the Brits in Kabul in this international force. The Brits aren't talking about staying. We're having trouble getting anybody else to get in the deal.

I think we have a lot of work to do left in Afghanistan.

NOVAK: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Netanyahu, former Prime Minister Netanyahu, when he was on Capitol Hill this past week, told several senators that he thought that the Iraqis had weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, and that they could be transported to this country in a suitcase.

You have access to classified information. Do you think that's a realistic threat or realistic probability?

BIDEN: Let me make sure I got the question. I'll parse it two ways. One, weapons of mass destruction...

NOVAK: Nuclear.

BIDEN: ... chemical or biological or nuclear?

NOVAK: Nuclear.

BIDEN: Nuclear, in a suitcase, no.

NOVAK: So you think that was not a correct...

BIDEN: (OFF-MIKE)

NOVAK: ... nuclear threat.

BIDEN: That is not a correct assessment as to where the Iraqis are at this moment. It is a correct assessment of what their desire is, but not where they are at this moment.

NOVAK: What is the reason for U.S. policy to remove Saddam Hussein? is it because of the way he treats his own people, is that the measurement? Or is he a threat to our national security?

BIDEN: I think he's a long-term threat and a short-term threat to our national security, Bob. I can't picture a circumstance where, five years from now, he's still in play, he's still in power -- nothing has occurred in terms of curtailing his quest for weapons of mass destruction -- and the world being safer. And so, it seems to me that it is very much in our interest that he no longer be in power.

But the biggest deal, Bob, and the reason why the Arabs, as well as the Europeans, are concerned about our threat is that they have no threat we can take them down, they just wonder whether we're going to stick around and make sure there's a nation that is viable after, in fact, we take him down. And they're looking at Afghanistan and saying, "My lord, they won't even stay there. What's going to happen when you take Saddam down? Do the Kurds establish an independent state? Do the Shi'as move? Do the Iranians move?" (UNINTELLIGIBLE) chaos in the region.

And so, my plea to the president was, "Mr. President, lay our your vision privately to these leaders as to what you are willing to commit to, not just in terms of taking him down, but with multilateral help, what you're committed to as to what you think Iraq should look like five years from now."

NOVAK: OK, we have to take another break. And when we return, we'll have the Big Question for Senator Joseph Biden of Delaware.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: The Big Question for Senator Joe Biden:

Mr. Chairman, the various presidential hopefuls of the Democratic Party are all in Florida today at the first cattle show of this election cycle. Why aren't you there?

BIDEN: I'm running for re-election in Delaware right now.

NOVAK: So you're not interested in the presidency?

BIDEN: No, I didn't say that. I said I'm running for re- election in Delaware right now.

(LAUGHTER)

That's why I'm here.

HUNT: I don't think we're going to get anywhere on this one, Senator. Let me ask you this, though...

(LAUGHTER)

One of the politicians that was there -- or is there, rather, is former Vice President Al Gore, who just gave a speech. And he sharply criticized the administration's domestic policies. He said that they have ignored working Americans, and they cater to the wealthy, and they've shortchanged real American values. Do you agree?

BIDEN: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

HUNT: This is the Mike Mansfield of 2002. Short answers from Joe Biden.

(LAUGHTER)

When are you going to decide whether you're going to run for president or not, Senator?

BIDEN: I have to make that decision by January. Some argue that's even too late. But I don't know enough to know whether or not I should run. And quite frankly, part of whether I run or not depends upon if the president does the kind of job I think he can do on foreign policy, I don't feel any real obligation to my hat in the ring. If things slipped away -- they might -- then I would feel more of an obligation personally, not that anybody is drafting me, I don't mean to imply that -- me personally to get into the fray.

HUNT: Joe Biden, thank you very much for being with us today.

Bob Novak and I will be back with a couple comments in just a moment. BIDEN: Thank you very much.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HUNT: Bob, I don't know if Joe Biden will run for president or not. The Democrats could do a lot worse than that very, very impressive performance today. He, I thought, quite shrewdly assessed the situation in the Middle East, Sharon and Arafat, and the dilemmas and the problems in Afghanistan.

NOVAK: And, Al, I think for a Democrat with presidential aspirations, which he surely has, I think it takes a lot of courage for him to agree with Yossi Beilin that the Palestinian people are not just a bunch of Al Qaeda terrorists but people with national aspirations and have to be treated that way.

HUNT: He was also very forthright in saying that it was absolutely inappropriate to have former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu before the Senate this week. Joe Lieberman was one of the Senators who invited Mr. Netanyahu up there. Joe Biden is actually quite close to Colin Powell, and I think he was genuinely offended by that invitation.

NOVAK: And Senator Biden was very firm in knocking down Mr. Netanyahu's claim that the Iraqis have a nuclear capability to bring it to this country in a suitcase. He also said the reason the U.S. gets little support in getting rid of Saddam Hussein is that President Bush has not laid out an alternative for replacing the Saddam Hussein regime.

I'm Robert Novak.

HUNT: And I'm Al Hunt.

Coming up at 7:00 p.m. Eastern on "CAPITAL GANG," Colin Powell's mission in the Middle East, the cardinal's decision in Boston, and the first 100 days for New York Mayor Bloomberg.

NOVAK: That's all for now. Thanks for joining us.

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