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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Officials on Sydney Hostage Standoff; Hostage Standoff in Sydney

Aired December 15, 2014 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

REPORTER: Have you cleared the Opera House and other buildings of any explosive devices?

ANDREW SCIPIONE, NEW SOUTH WALES POLICE COMMISSIONER: We are only at this stage dealing with one location. We are not concerned at this stage about any other.

REPORTER: Tell us the reason for locking down other buildings like the Opera House? Because you had information you needed to investigate other locations?

SCIPIONE: We needed to be sure those locations were safe. They have been cleared and deemed safe.

REPORTER: Because of information you had?

SCIPIONE: Certainly, we were acting on advice. That advice is something that led to us to build on that.

Again, if people see something, we want you to tell us. We want you to ring the national security hotline. If you see something that's happen, ring 000. If we need to respond urgently, don't hesitate. Use the 000 number. That's what it is there for.

But at this stage, we certainly had a lot of support from the public and we would encourage that to continue. If you see something, say something.

REPORTER: Are you certain it is just one gunman involved?

SCIPIONE: Again, we are not going to talk about numbers and those that might be inside that stronghold. Suffice to say at this stage, we know it's at least one.

REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) communities played in this so far. Looking at some of the places out there from other people and talking about reprisal attacks. What is your message to other people in Sydney?

SCIPIONE: Well, clearly, reprisal attacks are clearly something that should not happen. At this stage, we need to let everyone just settle down. We want people to remain calm.

There are large numbers of police involved in ensuring that we have a level of safety and in fact confidence that people can go about their business normally in any part of New South Wales, particularly at this time. So, those police will be out there. You have seen them all recently after big operations like Operation Appleby where we had groups that were involved in making sure the community confidence and the police were there to serve and keep everyone safe and secure. That will continue.

REPORTER: We have seen threats made online. (INAUDIBLE) Is anyone monitoring those?

SCIPIONE: I can assure you that we are working with community leaders as the premier indicated. We are working towards insuring that everyone is kept safe. That will continue and will go on.

REPORTER: Thank you very much.

SCIPIONE: OK?

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: You have been listening to the premier of New South Wales in Australia and also the police commissioner there. They are putting up a news conference -- finishing up a news conference.

They didn't have a lot of information. That was on purpose.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.

BERMAN: They didn't want to do anything that enflames the situation. Clearly, to me at least, it seems that they are taking into account the possibility that this man holding the hostages could be listening to this, or can at least catch wind of what's going on. So, he didn't want to talk about the number of hostage takers, didn't want to talk about the number of hostages.

What they did say was that their goal is to get everyone out safely. They said that is the only goal. They also said they are in contact with this man. They wouldn't say if it is direct contact or through people through on social media.

The other thing that was interesting that I do hope we can get a chance to talk about, they made clear this is an isolated incident. And the premier of New South Wales said, I want people to go back to work tomorrow. This will be a close -- it's nighttime right now.

ROMANS: Right.

BERMAN: It's about to be nighttime in Sydney. People are going to go to bed. They're going to wake up tomorrow morning. He told people, go to work tomorrow. Go about your daily lives. There will be this area that is closed off to the public, but he is calling on people to get back to life as usual.

ROMANS: If you work in that Martin Place area, that specific location where this is, he said you have to work from home tomorrow. But for the rest of the city, they are treating this as an isolated incident.

They did say they are treating it now as a terrorist event. That is how they are treating it at a moment.

He also -- the police commissioner, I find it interesting, he spoke directly to the hostages at one point, and he said, we will do what we can to set you free. He spoke directly to them.

On the point of have they talked to the gunman, have they talked to the hostage taker, they did not say they have spoken directly, necessarily with him. They said, we have got contact with him, but they didn't exactly say why, didn't say specifically what those negotiations have been like.

BERMAN: Do we still have Will Geddes on the phone with us?

WILL GEDDES, SECURITY ANALYST (via telephone): You do.

BERMAN: Will Geddes, a security analyst, hopefully, you had a chance to listen to the news conference as well.

Not a lot of specifics, but setting the scene for us to give us a sense of what's going on inside. What do you make of what we heard from the premier of New South Wales and police commissioner?

GEDDES: Well, I think, as you rightly say, a lot of it is kept very loose at the moment. They are credibly aware that the hostage taker is inevitably gaining intelligence on what's going on outside of the cafe at this moment, whether from the hostages that are communicating with the media, whether that'd be actually on the instruction of the hostage taker themselves, or whether it'd be through news feeds or any other intelligence that he may be trying to gather through social media, that is obviously generating around this event.

Now, bearing in mind, the hostage taker may have very considerably chosen this location because it is opposite one of the main Australian TV network. So, that network, Channel 7, I believe, has got a direct line of sight towards the cafe. And, again, we know with many terrorists these days, they are very, very media savvy.

ROMANS: It's really remarkable to me when you look at this event, Will, how one person, I don't know how many guns he has, they're not letting us know, but one armed person can walk into a chocolate shop or a cafe and hold what is -- clearly more than a dozen people hostage for 10 hours. I mean, with remarkably little effort how you can disrupt a major city, Will.

GEDDES: Yes, absolutely. But bearing in mind, this is a very central, very busy district. And for most people, it would have been a typical Monday morning going into work, picking up their cup of coffee. It started about around 7:00 in the morning. So, 7:00 or 8:00 in the morning.

So, people weren't expecting someone to walk into the coffee shop with what's believed to be a shotgun and holding them obviously hostage. Never to be people are not going to resist. They are going to obviously concede fairly quickly to the hostage taker's demands.

And again, we don't know some of the build up in the first instances when the incident first occurred.

BERMAN: Just to bring people up to speed about what's going on right now -- in Sydney, Australia, a Lindt coffee shop, it's a cafe, in the central business district, a busy area filled with people who work in the city, people who visit the city. About 11 hours ago, an armed gunman went into this chocolate shop and took people hostage. We don't know exactly how many people are being held hostage, but we have seen several of them in the window.

We have seen the hostage taker clearly armed in the window as well. Authorities there evacuated the vicinity of this chocolate shop, an unknown number of police are now on the scene. We have been hearing from officials all morning who tell us their only goal is to keep the people in there safe.

Five people did manage to get away. We do not know if they escaped or they were released. We just heard from police who did not want to say whether they escaped or were released.

ROMANS: Right.

BERMAN: Clearly, being sensitive to the possibility that the man who is holding these hostage is listening and perhaps not wanting to embarrass them.

We do not know the motivation of the man in the shop. He's made two demands, apparently. One to speak to the prime minister of Australia, Tony Abbott, and the other is he wants an ISIS flag delivered to the shop.

Will, if you are still with us, it is this connection to ISIS that people all around the world and United States, this possible connection that people will be honing in on right now. Is this a coordinated ISIS attack? Is that even -- does that even matter? Because if this man is inspired by ISIS and still a lone wolf, then it does show that the message is somewhat pervasive.

GEDDES: Yes, absolutely. I think, it's potentially likely -- again, I'm speculating here, this is a self radicalized individual. Certainly when we look at the statements by police, it appears it is a lone actor. It is an individual acting on their own.

Now, bearing in mind, this is a very different departure to a lot of ISIS-related attacks that we've seen in the past. From Canada to Mumbai and through to even to London, you know, we are seeing a hostage taking situation. Now, this is not normally their process. Even in Mumbai, we saw them going in and looking to gather as many fatalities as they possibly could.

So, at the moment, obviously, the negotiators, which are some of the best in the world, will be dealing with this situation. Ultimately, it's gong to be controlling this situation. It is believed the police have identified the actual name and identity of the hostage taker.

So, they will probably look for friends and associated and certainly nothing can be drawn from the statement that we are looking at a Mumbai-style attack in terms of other attacks generated around the city. This seems to be in isolation.

ROMANS: Will, for the purposes of the investigation, they really are not releasing much information. You think they know a lot more than they are telling us at this point because they are trying to -- they are trying to get as much as they can about this guy so they know how to deal with him.

GEDDES: Yes, I think there's going to be a number of different elements. He's going to be looking at the individual, his background, who he is, who he associates with, and obviously trying to understand whether this is something that has been building. Obviously, they made note that they are monitoring social media. So, they will look for any ISIS-related propaganda. Communications generated around this particular incident.

But added to which, also the identity of the hostage-taker. They'll be looking for associates that they can potentially bring in as neutral elements within that negotiations to perhaps discuss or talk through the hostage taker about releasing hostages or even stepping down entirely.

BERMAN: Will Geddes, security analyst, thank you so much for being with us. Hopefully, we can get you back on in just a little bit to talk more about this.

There is this ongoing situation in Sydney, Australia, a man that's holding people hostage inside a chocolate shop in the central business district. We did learn that there are no other sites right now that are areas of concern. It is isolated to this one area.

We also know that as of now, none of the hostages has been injured. One who did manage to get away was taken to the hospital because he had a pre-existing condition. But as of now, the safety of everyone inside is paramount.

ROMANS: We're going to take a break and bring back with everything you need to know about this ongoing hostage crisis in Sydney. This is happening just steps from the American consulate. Some people have escaped, but many remain trapped inside.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: All right. Our breaking news this morning: hostage standoff in Sydney, Australia. You can see it there. A gunman holding hostages in Sydney's central business district inside a chocolate shop. You can see it there.

Just moments ago, officials at the news conference didn't reveal the number of hostages being held. They didn't really want to reveal details of what is going on there.

The New South Wales police commissioner says they are treating it as a terror incident. They have been in contact with the hostage taker. They are not saying exactly how they are communicating. We have seen five people managed to get out. Whether they escaped or they were released, we do not know. But five people have managed one way or the other to get out of this standoff that began 11 hours ago.

We did hear from the man who happened to be sitting outside the Lindt chocolate shop when the drama began.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was in the cafe getting a takeaway coffee and I sat outside the cafe to chat on the phone. In those few minutes I was on the phone, this unfolded. I don't know if the gunman was in there when I was in the cafe or in a minute or two afterwards. But either way, this unfolded very, very quickly at 9:35 or 9:40 this morning. Inside that cafe, there was not hint. People were sitting down chatting over coffee going about their normal business.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: We have been able to see through the window. There is the man believed to be holding hostages appears -- clearly armed, wearing some kind of a backpack or vest. We've also seen several of the hostages at different points pressed up against the window.

There are media reports, Sky News of Australia saying that he's communicated demands whether directly through police or through the hostages, that is still unclear. But the two demands by this man calling himself "the brother" are, he wants an ISIS flag delivered to him in the coffee shop. That was an earlier Arabic he posted on the window. But he wants an ISIS flag delivered to the coffee shop and he also wants to speak with the Australia Prime Minister Tony Abbott.

BERMAN: I want to bring in Clarke Jones. He's a counterterrorism expert and a former national security operative in Australia.

Let's talk first about those two demands in particular, to why police are treating this as a terrorist event they say. The lone wolf risk is something that every government is very concerned about. Whether this man is deranged or just glomming on to the ISIS ideology, or whether he truly believes the ISIS ideology, is that the core -- the core motive you think here?

CLARKE JONES, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT (via telephone): Look, I think -- certainly, I mean, it's very hard -- I don't want to speculate too much. It appears to be a lone wolf attack.

But if you think about the location of Martin Place. I heard it described earlier, it is a busy part of Sydney. It is very close to Channel 7News Network in Sydney. It is close to the United States consulate and other government buildings. So, symbolically, it's fairly significant.

Now, there was a couple of months ago, I can't remember the exact date, but there was a plot to behead an innocent bystander in Martin Place. And that's going through their court system and I think it is coming up for mention quite soon. But, so, if there is any link, those supporting the Islamic State, seem to use Martin Place as a very strategic location to carry out their --

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: It is.

JONES: That indicates that some sort of connection maybe to the Islamic State and using Martin Place as a symbolic target.

BERMAN: In fact, what we have seen around the world, in Canada for instance, where that man did storm the Canadian parliament, that it doesn't necessarily with someone in central headquarters of ISIS in Syria or Baghdad. You can be inspired by these terror groups and act as a lone group.

And, in fact, we have seen evidence of this overtime that is often the vulnerable, it is often people who are not of their right mind, who are influenced by some of these terror groups.

JONES: Yes, look, that's right. I mean, it doesn't have to be someone -- it can be someone who is unhinged, if you want to put it that way with some mental condition or disability. It's also, we have seen those that are marginalized or disenfranchised in the community. So, it doesn't -- it can be someone who feels alienated from the Australian society or from the community which they're in. So, it doesn't have to be a direct link to the Islamic State as we have seen previously. It doesn't, the association now, is not what it used to be. It doesn't have to be a direct link to al Qaeda or what we have seen.

So, yes, it's quite likely to be this lone actor. What mental state this person is in at the moment is hard to say. It's a little too early to speculate. But it appears to be a man in his mid-40s to late 40s from some of the footage, whether that is the perpetrator, that is still too early to tell. But the police certainly know more than what we the public know at this moment.

ROMANS: Yes, clearly, they are keeping a lot of the details to themselves for obvious reasons because they have an operation underway here and an investigation underway here.

Give us a little sense from their perspective, I guess without giving away any of their motives or their playbook. What are they doing here? They are probably trying to find out who this person is. Maybe they know who this person is right now.

How are they trying to speak to him? What -- give us a sense of what is happening behind the scenes?

JONES: Whether there were certain hostages that made communications with family or delivered a mobile telephone and they are using the cafe chocolate shop telephone, they would have had that number. They certainly would have been trying to communicate with the perpetrator the whole day. I believe it took a while to get communication through. But, obviously, he made demands. The police would be trying to assess the situation through the information that has been given to him.

Now there are a number of things they are trying to understand where the hostages are located and where they are hiding and where the perpetrator is whether he is moving around. They will be trying to get other types of -- you know, whether it is camera inside or all sorts of things.

Also to set up the worst-case scenario where the hostages are stuck and get threatened, and whether police need to move in and take more decisive action. So, there's a whole lot of things going on. And we have seen them move in emergency services in case the ambulance and fire engines just in case things turn worse or hostage released with medical care. We have seen one with a previous condition.

So, there's a lot of unknowns in relation to what we are seeing. I believe the police by now, since 10:00 this morning, would have lots of operational intelligence and tactical intelligence in case needed to be decisive action taken.

BERMAN: We have been reporting this is the only area right now, the only place in Sydney that authorities are concerned about. It is isolated geographically to the coffee shop. We just got a statement saying the consulate general in Sydney, which is very nearby, has been evacuated as a precaution. There is a smaller number of staff there. But that has been evacuated as a precaution.

I want to talk about the overall security situation in Sydney and in Australia over the last few months. The terror alert level has been raised from medium to high. You mentioned a specific event earlier this year about the possibility that someone kidnapped and beheaded. That was a very specific concern inside Australia. There were terror raids over part of the country that netted a couple of suspects earlier this year.

So, this is not happening in a pure vacuum as far as terror concerns go in that country.

JONES: Yes, that's right. I mean, look, I any there were a number of things. One, there was a raising or strengthening of counterterrorism of legislation to deal with foreign fighters and tightening the legislation of people leaving. So, a number of things going on, and we've also had the deployment of Special Forces which was stuck if limbo for a while in Iraq or entering Iraq. We had increased the aerial bombing.

There also has been the government talking about everything from team Australia. There are a number of things coming that push or pull factors or trigger event that are happening overseas that are justifying the raising of the alert level. There also has been disagreement with the counterterrorism legislation and feeling that that legislation directed at the anti-Muslim (ph) community, but the Muslim minority groups in Australia.

So, there are a number of things to justify that alert level. There have been foiled plots in Australia as well. Counterterrorism raids may have been shots across the bow people carrying out (INAUDIBLE) during the economic forum in Brisbane. So, there's been major events, major sporting events in Australia.

So, the government has been cautious to make sure that some of those symbolic targets didn't eventuate.

ROMANS: We should say more than 40 Australian Muslim groups have condemned this siege getting together in releasing the statement, calling it a despicable act.

Obviously when you have so many people for so long, 12 hours now -- from I guess a security standpoint, when you look at a hostage event that has taken this long and lasted so long, you know, what does it take for police to go in and do something? At this point, they wait him out? What is the strategy, do you think?

JONES: Look, the police no doubt want a peaceful resolution to this end. They will be doing all they can to try to talk to the perpetrator out of this particular situation. I think the only time the police may act is if the hostages become threatened. The police will try to calm the situation and wait it out. They do not want a disastrous end to this. They want a peaceful solution.

ROMANS: We did hear the police commissioner speaking directly to the people when he gave that press conference recently say, we will set you free. So, he spoke directly to those hostages, clearly thinking they do have access to everything they're saying.

Clarke Jones, thank you so much for your perspective and for your time this morning. Thank you, this evening in Sydney.

JONES: Thank you very much. I wish I could say more.

ROMANS: No, great context. Thank you.

We're going to recap all of this unfolding drama and keep you up to speed in every new development. There are hostages still in a cafe. We have reaction from the ground and sort of the questions swirling around the motives of this man. Who is he, what does he want, and will he let these people go?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)