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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Manhunt for Two Men Connected to Terrorist Attack; One Terror Suspect in Custody; Events in Paris Raise Terror Concerns Across Europe

Aired January 08, 2015 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. The breaking news this morning, two terrorists on the run, wanted in the deadly attack of the French satirical magazine. A third man turning himself in overnight. He is being questioned, along with several others.

Right now, France is in mourning. The terror alert raised. We have the very latest.

Our live team coverage starts now.

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to EARLY START. I'm John Berman.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Christine Romans. It's Thursday, January 8th. It is 4:00 a.m. in the East.

We welcome all of our viewers here in the U.S. and around the world.

BERMAN: All right. Breaking overnight: several people are now in custody in the worst terror attack in France in recent history. Twelve people, of course, we killed in the attack on the French satirical magazine "Charlie Hebdo", 11 more were wounded. One eyewitness called the scene a massacre.

After the attack that was clearly carefully planned, the suspects jumped into a car and drove away. That began the huge manhunt for three suspects, stretching to the scene in Paris to the city of Reims, about 90 miles away.

Overnight, France's interior minister announced that there are now, quote, "several detentions" they say in connection with the shooting.

One suspect named earlier by police is also in custody. That is 18- year-old Hamyd Mourad. He turned himself in. That is according to the French press agency, AFP. He could have been the driver in the getaway car. Police say two other suspects, brothers Cherif and Said Kouachi are still on the run.

With the latest now, let's turn to our international correspondent Frederik Pleitgen in Paris.

Good morning, Fred.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good morning, John.

And we're here outside of the headquarters of the satirical magazine that was attacked. It is, of course, cordoned. There are people who are laying flowers. There are many people who are coming to visit this area here and, of course, Paris today is in a state of mourning.

There are however, several new developments that happened overnight. There was already a press availability that happened earlier today by the French prime minister. One of the things that we have learned in the past couple of hours, apparently, there was a shooting in the southern suburb of Paris called Porte de Chatillon. Apparently, several police officers were wounded in all of that.

We're going to try to get more details for you as the show goes on because all of that is still in the early stages. As you said, though, the suspects now have been named. One of them is Cherif Kouachi, the other one, his brother Said Kouachi. Both of them are still on the run. One of the other things that the French prime minister said earlier today is that he believes both of these men are still at large and they are still heavily armed and very, very dangerous.

Of course, judging by the video that we saw all of yesterday, by what was going on here at the headquarters of this magazine of the carnage that happened there, it does appear as though, these people, if they are indeed involved with all this, are very much a threat to anyone to anyone.

As you said, there was a large police operation in the town of Reims, which is about 1 1/2 hours away from here in Paris. Several other people were netted, were taken into custody in all of that. So, all of this is an ongoing operation.

So, at this point, we know the suspects names and we know their ages, but who exactly are Cherif and Said Kouachi? And who Hamyd Mourad, the third person who has turned himself in? And just as importantly, what don't we know? What important questions remain to be answered about the suspect in this deadly terror attack?

Let's bring in CNN's Paris-based senior international correspondent Jim Bittermann.

Jim, first of all, tell us what do we know about the suspects?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the two are best known to police. In fact, one of the two brothers actually served time. He was arrested in 2005 for recruiting young people to go to Iraq to fight with al Qaeda. By the time he got to trial in 2008, he already served about 18 months. And so, he was sentenced to three years in prison, but it was almost, straightaway that he was turned around and released in 2008.

So, he has a record. He's known to have been familiar with terrorist groups. He's been a recruiter for terrorist groups, al Qaeda in Iraq and perhaps Chechnya. His older brother, however, had a criminal record, but a very minor one, kind of small crimes and misdemeanors. The two of them, apparently, according to reports, were identified

because one of them left an ID card behind in the getaway car. Police searched the car and found the ID and that's what led them to the two shooters suspects who are being tracked right now.

Overnight, as you mentioned, John, in fact, a number of people were taken into detention. But these were friends and associates of these two guys. I think the police are basically rounding up as many people as they can who might have anything to do with the two of them and might have any leads as to where they might be right now.

PLEITGEN: Jim, one of the things we have to mention in all of that, it brings up a lot of questions, because one of the main priorities for French intelligence services has been keeping track of radical Islamists. It appears that most of these people were known and they lost track of them. How can that be?

BITTERMANN: Well, I think it's pretty explainable if you recognize the larger picture here, and that is the fact there are hundreds and hundreds of people under investigation for having contact with al Qaeda and ISIS and other nefarious groups. And those folks, the police I guess can't keep track of everybody. That is an explainable situation.

Also, there was nothing since 2008 that this younger brother committed that would have led police to the trail. However, he must have gotten military training somewhere. We don't know what happened to him after 2008.

PLEITGEN: We have to talk about this new shooting that we're hearing about this morning. Are there any other details that you have for us?

BITTERMANN: Our colleagues at BFM are reporting this morning that two police officers are shot. A gunman just got out of a car. The police officers were on duty at a traffic accident. A gunman, according to eyewitnesses, got out of a car and started shooting at the police. He was dressed in black as the shooters were yesterday. Police have taken into custody a 53-year-old man, according to reports.

Whether or not that's connected with this shooting here, we don't know at this point. We are still waiting for clarification. But the interior minister went to the scene and broke out of the crisis meeting. So, obviously, the government takes this very seriously.

PLEITGEN: You are Parisian by -- more so than some French people. What's the city like this morning? Is it different than it was before all of this?

BITTERMANN: You know, I don't want to over-exaggerate. But the fact is I think there is a tension around. You certainly see a lot of police on the streets.

One of the startling images for me this morning came from Le Bourget Airport, when troop transport planes -- French troop transport planes landed with troops coming in, getting out, to back up the French police. And it's just amazing to see army coming from the French capital to back up the police. We have seen army on the streets here for years because of terrorism alert levels, but --

PLEITGEN: Around the Eiffel Tower, you'll see the troops around there.

BITTERMANN: You'll see the troops and the rest of it. But this is something radically different that they are actually flying in troops to back-up the police here. It is a means of reassuring I think the population. But by the same token, it also shows the severity of the problem.

PLEITGEN: Jim, thank you very much. You will be on top of this throughout the entire, updating us with anything.

BITTERMANN: Yes.

PLEITGEN: John, as you can see, the city as Jim said, is very much on the edge. However, you have an interesting reaction that happened yesterday with protests that took place against, of course, the awful events that happened here where people were displaying they will not be intimidated by terror attacks. They will not allow their liberty taken away from them.

The interesting thing we saw at those demonstrations, there was no hint of any anti-Islamic sentiment among those people who came out. Very, very quickly to say in France, Muslims and Christians and Jews come together and get through this, which is a very important at this point of time, because in France, like other European countries, you have extremism on the rise, both right wing extremism as well as Islamic extremism. We know that this country is one that has had a lot of people go to Syria and Iraq -- John.

ROMANS: Well, in France, the national identity, Fred, is to interesting. It is French first and then everything after that. It's all about unity of being French no matter what your religion or where you country of origin, your family's country of origin. So, that's interesting part of that whole process.

Let me ask you, I'm curious what authorities are telling you about whether this was a small sleeper cell or whether these men had a big expansive group of people who were helping them. Do they know yet?

PLEITGEN: Well, they certainly don't. It does appear as this is not one of those lone wolf incidents. It appears to be something that seems to be pretty well-planned. One of the things that Jim just said, it very much appears as though, these people had had some sort of military training.

It is unclear whether or not that would have been formal military training or whether or not they were in some place where there was fighting, where they actually got experience on the battlefield. But, certainly, one of the things we hear from authorities in the United States and here as well as here, is that it does appear as though these people have used firearms before and very well-versed in using firearms, and also went about what they did in a very cold and calculated way, and that seems to indicate that there was some sort of pre-planning stage. On the other hand, the other thing, of course, is interesting, is that these people didn't do this and then make a stand here in this place. They actually also had a plan to get away. So, that certainly seems to also indicate there was some form of planning.

And, finally, of course, what's also important, these people were able to acquire AK-47s in the western European capital, and that's something that a certain degree of logistics as well.

ROMANS: Frederik Pleitgen, thanks so much, Jim Bittermann, too, great analysis.

BERMAN: Yes, we'll check back in with you as soon as we can if there's more information about the shooting in southern Paris.

But right now, for more on the attack yesterday at Charlie Hebdo, I want to bring in Fawaz Gerges. He's chair of the Middle Eastern studies department at the London School of Economics and author of "The New Middle East: Protests and Revolution in the Arab World".

Professor, thanks so much for being with us.

I want to talk about the Kouachi brothers. Born in France of Algerian descent. What is that speak -- how does that speak to the complications in that country dealing with Islamic extremism?

FAWAZ GERGES, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, it's not just -- as you know, John, it's not just France, it's in Britain, in Germany, in Belgium. You have these particular phenomenon, of self-radicalization of young, diluted people who buy these kind of utopia projects. Al Qaeda ideology, as you know, has mutated. It has found home amongst some young men in particular in the European countries and other Middle Eastern countries. Al Qaeda offers a utopia.

The two brothers, Cherif and Said, are this particular generation. We should not exaggerate the significance of the particular generation.

I mean, take France, for example. France has about 5 million Muslims. We are talking about 1,000 young men who have traveled to Iraq and Syria to fight with ISIS. Yes, it's a large number, 1,000. Very deadly.

All it takes two or three people who could do a great deal of damage. But we are talking about a small, tiny segment, insidious, dangerous, that basically has bought into this particular ideology. The second point about Cherif and Said, the two brothers, they were radicalized after the American invasion and occupation of Iraq in 2003. Cherif is on record saying that the reason why he was self-radicalized when he saw the torture images in the American-led prisons in 2003, 2005. He basically tried in 2005 to create a network to send militants into Iraq, was arrested in 2008. His brother, Said, reportedly has traveled to Syria.

So, you have Iraq and Syria have served as basically theaters to radicalize not only people in Iraq and Syria, but thousands of young men in European countries and Middle Eastern countries. ROMANS: The inconsistency, Fawaz, is these gentlemen did not try to

bomb a U.S. embassy or a U.S. military structure. They tried to bomb or they shot and killed people in a place where believe it or not, the cartoonist of "Charlie Hebdo" had fun of the United States and mocked the United States government, mocked the very wars these gentlemen were radicalized by.

GERGES: You know, this is a very important question. The question really on the table is why France? And the second question is why "Charlie?" Why this particular newspaper?

There are two questions for your own viewers. France now in the eyes of militants, not just al Qaeda, the al Qaeda variety, whether you're talking about al Qaeda in Yemen, the Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, because there are some reports that these three men belong to al Qaeda and affiliate in Yemen or ISIS. They view France as public enemy number one. In fact, the bigger enemy than the United States. This would come to you as a surprise.

Why? France is engaged in fights against militants in West Africa and Mali and Chad and North Africa, in Iraq and Syria. It has taken on militants.

The second component of the question really is cultural. France is seen by militants of al Qaeda variety as waging a cultural war against what they perceived their Islamic values, their identity, their prophet. They have chosen "Charlie."

"Charlie" is a very important symbolic target. It represents France. It represents in their eyes hyper secularism, secularism that has imposed on these Salafists who had this ideology. So, the fact is, you have two components. You have radicalization, ideological and culture.

And as you know, Europe now, where I am in England, U.K., or France, or Germany, it is a culture mind feed. You had the religious right and you have the militant Islamist right. And, unfortunately, I mean, even the Muslim community could be said is a victim pressed between a rock and a harder place, the rock of its militant and the harder place of the rising Islamophobia in the heart of Europe.

BERMAN: Fawaz Gerges, always great to have you with us. Thanks so much for coming in to EARLY START. Appreciate it, sir.

GERGES: Thanks.

ROMANS: Among the 12 people killed in the attack, some of the most controversial cartoonists in France, "Charlie Hebdo" editor Stephane "Charb" Charbonnier was among the dead. At least seven other journalists were killed, including well-known cartoonists Georges Wolinski, who worked under the pen Wolinski. Jean Cabut, known as Cabut. Bernard Verlhac also known as Tignous and Philippe Honore known as Honore. Also killed was journalist, economist and "Charlie Hebdo" shareholder Bernard Maris. Now, authorities say a maintenance man and two police officers also died, 11 people were wounded in the attack, four were in serious condition this morning. BERMAN: So many people around the world were standing with the victims of the terror attack at "Charlie Hebdo". Solitary rallies were held in French cities and across Europe, even in Brazil. They took the streets in Sao Paolo. So many people were holding signs with the local phrase for "I am Charlie." They lit candles at the vigil in Geneva, to remember those who were killed. Rally outside the French embassy in Madrid was organized by the group of Reporters Without Borders.

In the United States, there was a gathering in Boston displaying signs with the message "Not afraid". We saw that in Paris also, that was voicing support, universal support for the freedom of expression. In Washington, D.C., there was a rally outside the museum.

ROMANS: That is "Je Suis Charlie" or "I am Charlie" and "Not afraid". Those were around the world, spreading around the world, within minutes of this attack yesterday.

We'll continue to follow the latest on the Paris terror attack all morning. Two gunmen on the loose, several detained by police now are being questioned.

But, first, this terror threat spreads across Europe. Experts warning about the rising risk of attacks. We are live in London, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: All right. Breaking overnight: French officials now say they have several people in custody in the investigation into the major terror attack on a Paris magazine. Police continue the manhunt for the men they believe were behind the attack on the magazine "Charlie Hebdo." The two gunmen stormed the magazine's office midday Wednesday, shooting a dozen people, including writers, cartoonists and others. Eleven were wounded. It was a dramatic get away, car chase, shootouts with police, carjacking. Terrorists switched cars and got away.

Police are now looking for two brothers in their early 30s. Said and Cherif Kouachi, they are warning French that these are armed and dangerous. Another suspect, Hamyd Mourad has already turned himself in.

ROMANS: Speaking out against Islamic extremism is clearly a dangerous business. Few people under that more than Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Ali is Somali-born American writer and activist and the long-time critic of Islam's treatment of women. In 2004, she was forced into hiding, protected by government security agency in the Netherlands after receiving violent threats to her life.

Listen to her tell Anderson Cooper say how risky free speech can be.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AYAAN HIRSI ALI, ACTIVIST: When you live the way I live, you have to ask yourself over and over again, what is -- who are these people who want to kill me and what do they want from me? What is it that drives them?

Over and over again, I come to the conclusion that this is not some kind of random event. These are not some bunch of deranged thugs. This is a movement. It's an ideology. The people who are doing this have a vision and they're united around that vision. And it's embedded in a world religion and a world civilization.

For me to be safe, I have to outlive a generation of young minds who are polluted, whose minds are contaminated with this ideology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: There is something deeply painful and very poignant about the last cartoon published by Charlie Hebdo's editor and one of its best known cartoonist, Stephane Charbonnier known as Charb. Take a look at the headline. It reads, "Still no terrorist attacks in France." This was published a few days ago. Below the headline, a militant says, "Wait, we still have until the end of January."

ROMANS: We are following the latest on the terror attack in France all morning long. Two gunmen on the loose right now. Several people detained by police questioned. New developments and the rising terror threat in Europe. We've got that for you, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: The events in Paris raising terror concerns across Europe. European terror expert Claude Monique says what he has seen so far shows that "Charlie Hebdo" gunmen were well-trained and might have had combat experience, perhaps in Syria. Monique says the "Charlie Hebdo" attack is proof that terror environment in Europe is escalating.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLAUDE MONIQUE, EUROPEAN STRATEGIC INTELLIGENCE & SECURITY CENTER: In the past, we had a few hundreds dangerous people in all of Europe. Today, we have a few -- at least a few hundred dangerous people in each European country. That means thousands of dangerous people in Europe and thousands of people waiting to take action (ph) in the Western world, willing to kill people and willing to go into jihad, in Syria or in Europe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You know, one sign of the heightened anxiety in Europe, Spain has raised their terror threat level by one tier to level three.

Joining us now to discuss the situation across Europe, CNN's Max Foster live in London.

Good morning, Max.

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, John, this is not just seen as a threat to the people of France, it's seen as a threat to all European countries, but all European civilian society. So, for example, last night, I was here with David Cameron and German Leader Angela Merkel. They received a briefing from U.K. intelligence. And the message really was the countries can't act alone in countering this terror threat. They are liaising, they're all working together because this is a European, a global problem, not just a French problem.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We are working very closely together in such situations because this is not something that a single country can solve by itself.

DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: We have to all be vigilant. We have to try to address all the problems of radicalization that have happened in our country. We have to make sure we invest in our security intelligence agencies properly. We have to deal with the problems at source.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: At this hour, John, the government's emergency COBRA committee will be meeting over the way there. They will discuss the British preparedness in light of what happened in France, because a similar thing happened after the Sydney attack, a lone wolf attack.

Again, if we got a different terror attack here -- it's a military- style, very sophisticated operation -- there are things that all countries can learn from this, a type of response. If a similar thing happened here, if a copycat threat here, how would the U.K. respond? That is the type of question governments around Europe and the world are asking today.

BERMAN: Of course, it's a very real threat in the continent with the borders there, virtually nothing to keep these men, these terrorists, heavily armed terrorists from going across borders, all part of the E.U.

Max Foster for us in London this morning, thank so much, Max.

ROMANS: All right. Breaking news this morning, the different manhunt for those terrorists behind the deadly attack at a French satirical magazine: 12 dead, 10 wounded, two gunmen on the loose. Several people detained now by police being questioned.

We are live with the latest developments, next.

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