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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Manhunt Now Focused Near Paris Airport; Ongoing Hostage Situation; "Charlie Hebdo" Suspects Surrounded

Aired January 09, 2015 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: They say that hospital says they have had no wounded at that hospital yet, but the hospital officials tell CNN that that could change.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Isa and Jim, I'm wondering, this is close to the airport, close to the Charles de Gaulle airport. How close is it?

And do we know? Are they diverting flights? Are they making any kind of changes to business around Charles de Gaulle Airport because of this manhunt?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I don't know this for a fact, but I would guess no. It's a fair distance away from the airport. There is nothing to indicate it would cause problems for any of planes that are flying in and out of Charles de Gaulle. It's a fair distance.

I should just say that hospital -- we are talking about is the hospital which is probably the biggest hospital in the area, just a few miles away. A town that is famous for other things -- mustard, in fact. But in any case, that hospital is not that far away and could be, if there are injuries, would be the biggest place to find treatment for anybody that was injured.

But no, I would say with the question of the airport, we are using the airport as a geographic reference. I don't think there's anything to indicate that there is any problem there.

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christine, also if we bring that map up that we have looking at the northeast area that the police have been concentrating the past day or so, you get really an idea of it is all part of one area, and the airports that we pointed out is to give a sense of how close everything is. And, obviously, we saw police chase northeast of Paris. There we go. There is Dammartin-en-Goele. There's Roissy Airport in Paris. I mean, it is still quite far out, isn't it, Jim?

BITTERMANN: Yes, exactly, yes.

BERMAN: I want to see if we can bring back Atika Shubert right now who is race together scene right now, Dammartin-en-Goele, where this operation is ongoing. The interior ministry says they have surrounded the suspects, the terror suspects in the shootings at "Charlie Hebdo" just yesterday. We've lost Atika just for the moment. She was headed to that area

just moments ago. She was reporting a large police presence on the road. Everywhere she went. She could see law enforcement officials trying to keep people out of the area, only letting certain cars pass. She has been working her way to the scene.

Atika also reported this incident -- today's part of the incident began when these men believed to be Cherif and Said Kouachi, the brothers believed to be behind the attacks in Paris, stole yet another car and raced to this town that you're looking at right now, Dammartin-en-Goele. The French media is reporting that there could be one or more hostages there.

ROMANS: "Le Figaro" newspaper, a French newspaper, is actually tweeting a picture of what looks like the factory where this hostage situation is happening that is being surrounded in Dammartin-en-Goele. The French media saying there is a hostage situation there. At least one hostage has been taken. There is that photo right there being tweeted by "Le Figaro", the French newspaper. That's where "Le Figaro" says this is unfolding.

And around there, we are showing where police, where reporters are standing by waiting for any developments as the situation unfolds. The interior minister is saying it is confident that they are closing in on these two suspects.

It is a dangerous situation, a very dangerous situation. We know they are armed. We know they potentially have petrol, gasoline from a gas station they knocked off yesterday. Authorities say they knocked off yesterday.

We do know that it looks like there is no exit. If this is exactly happening as we think, this is the end-game for these two gentlemen.

BERMAN: The Paris prosecutor's office, we should say right now, says that he has no confirmation of any deaths or injuries in this situation. There have been some reports of shootings, but also reports of people wounded or killed at this point. The Paris prosecutor says that is not so. A local hospital, one of the major hospitals in the area just told CNN they are sending medical personnel to the scene you're looking at right now. That's the town of Dammartin-en-Goele.

The two pictures you're looking at, Christine, the one on the left --

ROMANS: "Le Figaro".

BERMAN: -- is "Le Figaro", which is a picture of literally the building where they believe this operation is going on right now. That's not a live picture. That's the picture that they have on their file right now, to give you a sense of what it looks like where these suspects Cherif and Said Kouachi are now be hiding.

This other picture you're looking at right now, these are live images coming in to us to give you a sense of what is happening right now. We've seen a very large police presence. We have seen helicopters flying overhead right there as well.

ROMANS: "Le Figaro" is calling it a hostage-taking, taking place at this business called the Creation Tendance Decouverte. That's the name of the company, the company there.

And remember, it is about just before 11:00 a.m., so you could have -- you know, most of France doing business as usual even as there are three actually -- three active shooters on the loose being hunted in France.

BERMAN: Jim Bittermann, give us a sense of what law enforcement officials were talking about here. The types of people involved here. In the United States, we have the FBI. We have SWAT teams. We have, you know, hostage people who negotiate for the release of these people.

What do the French have on the scene?

BITTERMANN: One of the things that is interesting just happened in the last couple of days here. One of the terrorist experts expressed some surprise at how well everybody is cooperating. I think you have the same problem here that you see in the United States sometimes, and that is that sometimes it is difficult to get intelligence agencies, the police, the army and the military cooperating.

But the French have all three of those things going on. There is, of course, the internal intelligence and external that had been tracking the guys we're talking about, or maybe not tracking them.

And as well, you have police at every level, you have local police and you have Gendarmerie, and then you have the more sort of elite police, things like the SWAT team and vehicles that Atika has been following is part of the SWAT team, a very highly trained group that have -- the highly equipped group that are called out only in the most extreme circumstances and something like this would be right up their alley. And then, of course, you have the military.

Now, the military -- the role of military has been pretty much back- up. We see the military on the streets and have for years because of the terrorist alert level in France. We have seen the military out on patrols.

But, really, they follow the directions of the police. You have these things at every level. What is taking place here, I think we've got Gendarmerie, and we've got that elite squad, the SWAT team basically on the policing side, acting with as we heard in the last couple days, the cooperation of the various intelligence agencies involved as well -- John.

ROMANS: We have Frederik Pleitgen on the way to the scene, our correspondent Frederik Pleitgen has been following this for the past few days, of course, and is on the way to the scene there of this enterprise, this business in Dammartin-en-Goele, where French media reporting, there is a hostage situation.

Fred, are you there? Can you hear me? FRED PLEITGEN, CNN ITNERRNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes,

I can. Yes, we are on the way to the scene right now. We will see how close we can get to the place. We heard from the French authorities that they apparently cordoned the area off on a large scale. A couple of incidents they told media to move back somewhat. There is an established corridor that they have for liaison points with the media and police to see how far we can go to that area.

But we are going to try to get as close as we can. They said the only way to approach the area or approach that village where this is taking place is to go in from the south. That is what we are going to try to do to see how close we can get. We are a ways away, but we are hearing everything is cordoned off and the police operation is taking precedence over everything else.

BERMAN: We are showing you live pictures of a helicopter overhead and police gathering in certain areas. We should make perfectly clear, CNN is being very careful not to show you anything that would give the terrorists a sense of the operations or exact operations going on in and around them right now. You don't want to give any operational details about what law enforcement might be up to.

But, Fred, the information is from the French Interior Ministry that they believe they have these suspects surrounded. There have been reports from the French media that one or more hostages might now be held by these men. And we heard from a local hospital they are sending medical personnel to the scene.

ROMANS: You know, Fred, it's interesting. Some of these reports have been contradictory as is the nature of breaking news, the nature of this sort of stories.

The Paris prosecutor's office is denying to us Friday -- denying to us that there are no injuries or deaths in this ongoing police operation outside Paris. There have been media reports earlier that there have been a shootout. Fred, we just don't know at this point. What we do know, the only thing we know for sure is the interior ministry is confident they have closed and they are closing in on these two suspects, right?

PLEITGEN: Yes, certainly. And you are absolutely right. There were reports earlier that possibly some people have been injured. There were reports of people possibly having been killed. However, those reports to us have not been confirmed just yet. And, of course, we're going to be holding back reporting anything.

Right now, all we know is that there is a major police operation going on. There are helicopters in the air. This is a very large police operation in that area. We have to see whether or not any of that will affect a very large airport, Charles de Gaulle Airport, is near that, whether any of that is going to affect the operations at that airport.

However, right now, all we know, the large area around where this seems to be taking place is cordoned off. What is interesting, they are confident they tracked these people down. They have surrounded the right people and positively identified them. We're waiting to see whether or not that holds true. But at this point in time, it seems as though they are very, very confident they have the right people.

Of course, those reports of possible hostage-taking is something that a big concern here, because these various suspects have shown themselves to be very brutal and ruthless and not afraid to harm people as they go along on the rampage.

BERMAN: Fred Pleitgen with us on the phone with us. Fred is racing to the scene you're looking on the screen right now, Dammartin-en- Goele, where the French Interior Ministry said they have surrounded the suspects on the attack on "Charlie Hebdo."

Fred was talking about this area being near Charles de Gaulle airport. And we do now have reports from flight radar that at least two planes have aborted landing and not landing at Charles de Gaulle airport presumably due to the operations in this area right now, likely because the French authorities want to keep the air space clear for helicopters and for whatever else they want to be using right now for this operation.

Fred, a flurry of activity over the last 24 hours. These brothers believed to have robbed a gas station, believed to have been hiding out near a forest in the village of Longport, now believed to be in the city of Dammartin-en-Goele, this town of Dammartin-en-Goele, holed up in a building. Perhaps, French media reporting, one or more hostages being held.

This all coming as CNN got conformation overnight from CNN's Barbara Starr that one of these brothers, Said Kouachi, did travel to Yemen, did receive military training there as recently as 2011.

I believe we lost Frederik Pleitgen who is racing to the scene.

ROMANS: Let's bring in Sajjan Gohel. He's a terrorism expert and international security director for the Asia-Pacific Foundation, joining us via Skype.

You are listening to the developments, chaotic developments. Sometimes contradictory reports from French media. But we do know what we do know is that the interior ministry thinks it has these two suspects cornered. French media reporting a hostage situation. And you can see the video and the live feeds we are watching of a massive police operation under way.

What do you make of what we are seeing here right now and how desperate these terrorists must be at this point?

SAJJAN M. GOHEL, TERRORISM EXPERT: It brings back memories of a previous terrorist incident in France a couple years ago, Mohamed Merah, known as the scooter terrorist. He was an individual who went around in a scooter targeting the members of the French-Jewish community and French soldiers. It ended in a bloody shootout with authorities.

This current dynamic is bringing back those memories specifically. I think these individuals are waiting for a final showdown with the authorities. That is why they are taking all precautions necessary, bringing in all of the security personnel.

They also are conscious of the fact that the terrorists may want to try and use the media as the oxygen of publicity, as we know the terrorists groups utilize that to get the message out.

BERMAN: It is quite disturbing if they are girding for a final confrontation with law enforcement, if these reports turned out to be true, that they have one or more hostages with them.

ROMANS: Or they just haven't thought it through, or they thought through the initial operation and the exit strategy was just not part of the calculation. They maybe think they were going to get caught.

BERMAN: If they are holding hostages as part of the standoff that appears to be happening in this town, if they are, in fact, holding hostages, how does that change the situation for law enforcement? Is there any negotiating with these people? You know, it doesn't seem like death would scare them, sir.

GOHEL: They cherish and embrace death as much as you or I would want to live. That is the problem the authorities want to face. If there are hostages, the authorities will want to try and negotiate with them, to try and secure their release.

It doesn't always work, unfortunately. Look at what took place in Sydney last month where the individual had taken a number of people hostage at a cafe. It ended in a siege with the few hostages being killed.

These individuals showed no mercy in the first attack in Paris. As we saw, they gunned down a Muslim police officer on the streets. We can see how cold blooded they are and how calculated they are. And again, unfortunately -

(CROSSTALK)

ROMANS: Cold blooded and calculated, and desperate apparently at this point. And potentially with hostages, French media reporting at least one hostage in this enterprise. This business, "Le Figaro", newspaper "Le Figaro" has tweeted a file photo of what this business looks like. It looks like a small factor, small business in this town.

To bring you up to speed on another element we're following, Charles de Gaulle is seeing delays because of the security concerns. It is because of inbound delays because of security issues in this vicinity, high delays, they are saying, which is not really a surprise. I think we are talking a large area here. They are taking the utmost of caution.

BERMAN: You want to be careful with the air space with the helicopters flying overhead. That is what I'm sure is happening right now.

To bring people up to speed, the French Interior Ministry says they surrounded the suspects in the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting. The suspects are believed to have killed 12 people just the other day. They have surrounded the suspects in the town of Dammartin-en-Goele. You're looking at live pictures right now near the scene. We're not going to show you any pictures of what the law enforcement is doing right now.

I want to go to Isa Soares for us, who's with Jim Bittermann in Paris.

This really seems to be the end-game with the French law enforcement moving in ever closer to these terror suspects apparently who holding one or more hostages, Isa.

SOARES: Oh, absolutely. This is something we have seen intensify in the last 24 hours or so.

If you remember yesterday, John, you saw -- you saw the police really almost like a military operation in that north area of the country, really trying to hone in on them. They also spent hours in the gas station that Atika Shubert was reporting on, trying to close in on them.

It seems, though, that the area has expanded. The helicopter overnight caught them very briefly. We never heard anything else.

But, you know, one thing is clear from the police. They were adding pressure, as long as these two men were out there, they were not going to stop.

And, overnight, we saw them making mistakes. When they're inside their car, we saw they left some containers, some petrol as well. The fears were that they could make some Molotov cocktails.

So, as the pressure is being put on them, clearly, they are making mistakes. They are desperate. That is the concern now that we are getting reports there is a hostage situation. We do not know.

We are hearing reports that the hostage situation of one or two people. That is frightful, because we know what they are capable of, John and Christine. And, you know, that is something I will bring Jim Bittermann in on, because you've been following this.

BITTERMANN: Sure.

SOARES: Jim, this is must be so worrying. We do not know. This area here, though, we are talking about Dammartin-en-Goele has been cordoned off. We heard from Atika Shubert as well. Everything cordoned off. We are seeing these live pictures right now on our screen. The hospital as well is close by.

Tell us about that.

BITTERMANN: The fact they have sent medical teams says to me they have not yet quite prepared any assault. They are waiting until the medical folks are on the scene. We've just heard from the hospital. Medical folks are on scene.

So, if they are going to make an assault, they are in a position to do it now. You can see the helicopter hovering overhead for a half hour. Clearly, they believe that this is it. These are the guys that they are after and --

SOARES: And while we are looking at pictures, Jim, Hollande is expected to make a statement really at the top of the hour. We do not know whether it is to say they have caught these two brothers or they've got a handle of it. It does go to show looking at the live pictures they have the area contained at least.

BITTERMANN: Yes, that the president would come out and say something right now at this particular juncture.

SOARES: If they feel he had something.

BITTERMANN: Yes, exactly.

SOARES: You know, John and Christine, I was speaking earlier to you in the earlier hours this morning, that we did not -- the French government did not want to take any longer, to go into another day because that would be so dangerous for the people there in Paris. But it seems that the pressure has indeed, been put on them and has indeed come to manage to catch them. At least, that's what we are hoping looking at these images.

BITTERMANN: One of the things that I think is different the way the French reaction that we quite see in the United States, the president is directly involved in this and for good reason, because he is so politically unpopular, so viewed as kind of an incompetent, that he's got to get in front of this situation. And so, if we do hear from him in the next few minutes, as we are expecting, it is because he's going to capture the high ground politically.

SOARES: Absolutely. He has a lot to answer as well given the fact they knew the background of the two brothers.

John and Christine, I want to throw it back to you.

ROMANS: All right. I want to bring in Ed Davis, a former Boston police commissioner who is very, very aware of what it is like to hunt two suspects -- interestingly, two brothers who are radicalized.

This is something that happened in Boston in 2013. It's almost eerie, some of the similarities of the two men on the loose and a major international city trying to come to grips with finding them.

Mr. Davis, are you on the phone?

ED DAVIS, FORMER BOSTON POLICE COMMISSIONER (via telephone): Yes, I am. Good morning.

ROMANS: Tell me your thoughts here, as you're learning to sort of it -- sometimes the chaotic nature of a developing story and ongoing massive police operation.

DAVIS: Right, the similarities are striking. And it does bring back a lot of memories in the last 18 months. You know, you can see that there's a massive police presence here. They apparently have these guys pinned down.

So, time is helpful at this point, and the area is secure. But the hostages are in danger.

BERMAN: Yes, Commissioner Davis, this is John Berman here. We last spoke during the Boston marathon bombings.

And I think people do forget, there was a hostage that was taken in a car and he did manage to escape.

There are reports now on the French media that one or more hostages are currently being held by these two brothers who have proven, have showed their willingness to kill. How does that change the situation for law enforcement on the ground there as they surrounded these terror suspects?

DAVIS: Well, it certainly changes the equation in the negotiating process. There are certain options that you have, but they are limited in the situation like this.

So, you know, the police are moving in closely. They are trying to determine what is happening inside, but these type of situations as we saw recently in Australia, are very difficult and it is informs other countries as to how to move forward. So, in most cases, you try to wait and hold off as long as possible. But they move up any kind of action in a quick fashion.

ROMANS: Yes, weighing their response, how to weigh the response to the situation that is obviously so fluid. We don't know how many hostages have been taken in that business, in that town. French media reporting at least one.

We know the interior ministry, according to "Reuters", the French interior ministry spokesman says they are, quote, "almost certain" that the hostage takers are the two suspects in the "Charlie Hebdo" shooting. We know there is a massive police presence and operation under way here.

As you are running an operation like this, what are your first thoughts here?

DAVIS: Well, you try to get the best intelligence you can from the scene. So, I notice that there's a helicopter up, but the cloud cover is keeping the helicopter at low altitude, which puts the crew at peril. You know, small arms fire of an RPG could certainly affect that helicopter.

They are trying to get as much information as to what is happening inside the building as they can. They are also making sure that they keep the public and everyone else away from the scene so they can operate without any difficulty.

BERMAN: Commissioner, we just got word moments ago that French President Francois Hollande will be making a statement. We expect in the next 15 minutes or so. As someone who has been heavily involved a police operation like this,

which we believe is still ongoing. We believe that the suspects are currently surrounded, there are reports that they still holding hostages -- what would you think if a political leader, or what would you expect a political leader to say during that period?

DAVIS: Well, you are hopeful like we experienced here in Boston that the president would be very supportive and will say things that will bring the community together. The community is very upset, and have been on pins and needles for the last day or two.

And someone needs to show leadership and support for the people who are doing this very dangerous job. But also, you know, outreach to the victims' families. This is a terrible tragedy of epic proportion.

ROMANS: There is also, the people in the vicinity, the people living, working in this town, Dammartin-en-Goele, there are people presumably in that factory. We are told, French media, there is at least one hostage. And people in the town are presumably behind closed doors, you would think.

What would you be advising the people in this town?

DAVIS: Well, we would be sending out a very focused telephone message for people to shelter in place, to stay inside. You know, people termed what happened in Boston a lockdown, but the truth of the matter in Boston, the safest place you can be in a situation like this, if you're in a close vicinity, is to be in your home in the cellar or in a place that you can feel safe from any kind of shooting incident that may occur.

This is not -- this is not an easy thing to do. It's not a very controlled process when you go into a city and lock an area down like this. But people are very cooperative and listen closely to the messages we were sending out. I can see that same dynamic occurring here in Paris.

ROMANS: And when you look at sort of how this has unfolded. You have these suspects who clearly look as though they can really handle a weapon, who almost with, I don't know military precision, but some sort of training conducted that initial assault, killing 12 people at that magazine, and then having to knock off a day later, having to knock a police station to get food and to get some fuel. And now, this a hostage crisis.

What are your thoughts? Did they think this out? Did they think they would not get caught? What -- as a former police commissioner, what do you think?

DAVIS: Well, just like in our situation here in Boston, they seem to have done a plan as far as the initial assault. But they get very disorganized after the initial assault. They start to hijack cars and try to get away any way they can. It almost seems, as though, they expect to be killed in the assault and did not plan for an effective escape. That's precisely what's happening here. These guys had military training. They obviously are proficient with

firearms. But they also in some ways are very unprepared for the overall mission.

And I think that played out in Boston. I think it's also playing out here.

BERMAN: How does that play into their mindset right now? Because what we believe to be happening, the French interior minister tells us they have these suspects surrounded in the town of Dammartin-en-Goele.

You're looking -- Commissioner, we're showing people live pictures right now of the situation in and around that town. They are surrounded. There are reports that these terrorists could be holding one or more hostages. How does their mindset play in to what law enforcement has to consider during this operation?

DAVIS: Well, they are desperate right now. The truth of the matter is, if they are in a wooded area with the forward-looking infrared systems we have in helicopters, we can find them very quickly, and I'm sure this is the way it played out in Paris. When the helicopters are up, these guys have to find where they can get inside to hide. That's apparently what happened here.

Once they are inside and the area is locked down, this is not going to end well for them. They're certainly going to be taken into custody. They have to make a decision as to whether they want to go out in a shootout or whether they want to surrender. And all of the psychology around negotiating is focused on that right now.

Believe me, the negotiators will take this set of circumstances into opinion when they are discussing this with the suspects. Hopefully, they'll actually be able to talk to them directly. But the truth of the matter is, the mindset plays an enormous role in this. It doesn't leave a lot of options for negotiators.

ROMANS: Ed Davis, former Boston police commissioner, someone who has tracked a set of jihadist brothers himself. Now, we're seeing a very similar situation playing out in France. Thank you so much for joining us.

Another interesting parallel I think is that homegrown terror in both instances.

BERMAN: Let's bring people up to speed of what is happening: a flurry of activity in and around Paris.

Our breaking news this morning: the French interior ministry says they have the terrorist suspects surrounded. The brothers, Said and Cherif Kouachi, the brothers believed to be behind the assault on "Charlie Hebdo", the satirical magazine, killing 12 people inside and wounding so many others, on the run for two days, knocking off a gas station and perhaps hiding in the woods.

They are now holing up in this town Dammartin-en-Goele, that's according to the French Interior Ministry, and there is an ongoing operation to get them. There are French media reports that one or more hostages are being held which only complicates the situation on the ground.

Again, you are looking at live pictures, perhaps from just outside that town on the right -- a big police presence. You can bet in and around that building where the brothers are now believed to be holed up, that police presence even greater.