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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

French Police Surround Terror Suspects; Potential Ongoing Hostage Sitauation; French President Releases Statement

Aired January 09, 2015 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Again, you are looking at live pictures, perhaps from just outside that town on the right -- a big police presence. You can bet in and around that building where the brothers are now believed to be holed up, that police presence even greater.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: We can show a picture of that building, "Le Figaro" tweeted a picture of the file photo really the building where this is all thought to be doing down, potential hostage situation and these two suspects, the interior minister says these are the "Charlie Hebdo" suspects in the building. This is the operation underway at the moment.

I want to bring in Chris Cuomo. He is outside the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" where this massacre took place, this execution took place just a couple of days ago or yesterday.

Chris, tell me, what -- what is the latest from your vantage point?

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, NEW DAY: I have been listening to your reporting. You guys are doing a good job.

The key in the situation obviously is for us to exercise some restraint. It is tough to watch a flurry of activity. We are fortunate to have sources very close to this investigation. So, we are getting information as it moves.

It is worth taking half a step back because we will get a better understanding of why the authorities are doing what they are doing now. There is a lot of manpower thrown at this. There's no question about that.

However, right now, the entity that is surrounding the suspects is the elite SWAT team from the French. It is a combine of -- combination of the police and the military trained. They are surrounding the area.

The reason they are using that tactical force is because of what they have seen up to this point. They don't believe this is an organized exit plan, that should be obvious to everybody.

Throughout the night, they had surveillance on the suspects from the sky in helicopters. They believe that the suspects became aware of that. They exited their car. They entered the woods on foot. The authorities took that as a very good sign, because common sense tells you it will be difficult on foot carrying weapons, thick woods, to evade capture. They did. Night fell. There were surrounding fields. Again, this played to the

advantage of the authorities that had in place extensive easy to use, portable infrared equipment, night vision. So, they were using that, and they were tracking their movements through that.

They were in largely remote areas which seemed safer in terms of lighter pursuit, what they call lighter pursuit as opposed to actively trying to catch them right then and there, because there weren't as many populations to deal with.

Then, this morning, there was a change. They got a vehicle. They started to move.

There was never a hot pursuit as they were right on the back of the vehicle. I'm told that had been the case and they had the equipment and wherewithal to take out a vehicle either remotely or direct contact. They didn't do that.

The two suspects chose this course of moving toward this area of northeast Paris. Why? Well, the sources close to the investigation tell us they think it is random. This is not an organized cell. They are not following a protocol. They do not have a plan. They're scrambling.

Did they want to get close to the airport? We're told by our sources, there is not reason to believe that. They are about six or seven miles away from Charles de Gaulle, the major international airport right now. That airport is acting accordingly. It's diverting some of its flights. But there is no reason for any sense of interplay.

So, that's how they get into this industrial area. You have lots of units.

Because of what they learned in 2012 when they had a hostage standoff with the terrorist, then a solo actor, they brought in medical teams very early on. There is a flurry of reports of how many hostages, how many wounded, maybe there were dead -- all premature as far as our understanding at this point, but they are preparing for what happened the last time. You learn from experience in this business as you heard from Commissioner Davis.

So, now, they are in a lightly industrial area. The concern is that these two will move from place to place. They are running scared for lack of a most sophisticated term. That is why they brought in the SWAT team.

The marching orders at this point are that they cannot let them leave this area. A check on that will be hostages. As you have been reporting this morning that there is good word there may be a hostage. That will change things.

The French are protective of hot damage situations. They try not to be reckless at all. The rule is preserve life before engaging the enemy.

However, the number one mandate is they cannot let them run anymore. They believe they are too close to the airport, too close to the more heavily populated areas. They must keep them here.

There are ongoing negotiations with the suspects. What are they asking for and what are they hearing in return? We do not know at this point.

That is how we got to where we are right now -- John and Christine.

BERMAN: I should say, we have been expecting a statement from French President Francois Hollande. We were expecting that any minute. We now understand that has been delayed. He is meeting with his top advisors right now. He will be speaking. We will bring you that statement the second it happens.

Chris, you just said something interesting that I had not heard yet. You said there were ongoing negotiations with the terrorists. Does that mean they are in one building and French negotiators are at that building communicating directly with these men at this moment?

CUOMO: I am told John there are direct negotiations. They believe the hostage is a woman. The message from the terrorists to the SWAT team is that they are prepared to die as martyrs.

Now, that is a frightening thing to hear. Not unexpected from these two who have clearly drunk the poison of extremism and have been saying all of the things that martyrs normally would say.

However, John, let's remember, they had a chance to die and they didn't take it here at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo". They had several chances to martyr themselves and they have not.

However, now, they're in a different predicament, and again, that is the message to negotiators. That's the latest word I have for you.

ROMANS: All right. And this is all still developing, as all three of us know, in breaking news situations. It is very fluid and sometimes the information can be contradictory and it can change.

I want to go to Atika Shubert. She is on the way to the location. We are sending Atika Shubert and Fred Pleitgen there, around this business, this place Creation Tendance Decouverte, in this lightly industrial area where we think there is a hostage situation underway -- Atika.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): That's right. We are about 15 minutes away from the location. We already see the police presence on the roads going to Dammartin-en-Goele. Now, what we know we have spoken to the headmistress of a school nearby, very close by.

And she said this started at 10:00 a.m. this morning. They saw heavily armed police come in. The schools in the area have been shutdown. Parents have been asked to take children and stay inside their homes.

So, clearly, this town is on lockdown. And this one printing or publishing business is located in the industrial area where there is also a supermarket and a few other retailers. This is where it all seems to be unfolding. As you can imagine, residents are scared about what will happen next.

BERMAN: Give me a sense, Atika, of exactly what you are seeing at this point, the level of law enforcement. We have seen helicopters. We have seen all kinds of police vans and heavily armed law enforcement officials. What do you see on the ground as you move ever closer?

SHUBERT: Well, we know that helicopters have been circling the area this morning. Last night, they were scouring the forested area around Dammartin-en-Goele. What we have seen police on every major road and a quite a few of small back country roads as well. They are checking cars. They're looking to see who is coming through. They are preventing traffic from going through the center of Dammartin-en- Goele.

Keep in mind that there are literally thousands of police involved in the investigation and operation. Of course, they're keeping the area safe. Something like 88,000 according to the national police here. So, we are talking about an extremely ramped up police presence and heavy security all around this area.

ROMANS: All right. Atika, thank you for that.

I want to go back to the scene outside the "Charlie Hebdo" offices. Chris Cuomo is there.

And, Chris, what has been fascinating to watch, has been to watch how the story has developed over the past, you know, 48 hours now. And also to see the optimism this morning from the interior ministry that they got the two suspects found and cornered. What happens next, though, of course, is what is harrowing about this.

CUOMO: You know, there are so many different levels in a situation like this, Christine and John. You know, you have obviously what matters most, which is the protection of the surrounding public. No more harm from these two men. That's why obviously, taking them into custody, if not killing them, is very important.

But there are a lot of optic concerns here. The French people are watching. And this is a message about who is the enemy and how does the enemy respond?

And now, you have them running scared, you have them disorganization, you have them showing cowardice. And that's an important message here.

Also, it's not one that you want to exploit as authorities. Obviously, you want this to end as soon as possibly. But remember, you know, here near the offices of "Charlie Hebdo", where Thierry Arnaud and I, a local journalist who's joining me.

You know, people are watching. They're here around the memorial. This is about their national confidence. This is about their sense of security. This is, you know, about whether or not the government can keep them safe. All of these matter.

There's another perspective on this as well that will really inform why what we're seeing is happening right now. And that is, Thierry, what happened in 2012.

You had a solo madman religious zealot who had killed, who had attacked and had attacked a Jewish, was it a --

THIERRY ARNAUD, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, BFMTV: A school.

CUOMO: A school he had gone into.

ARNAUD: Yes.

CUOMO: And they wound up in a hostage standoff in a one-on-one standoff. It took 24 hours.

What were the lessons from that situation that we see played out today?

ARNAUD: It was very long. It was very difficult obviously. And the lessons here are right.

We have a massive deployment and we have abundance of precaution I think is the key of what you are seeing right now. There's a will both to be quick and decisive, but not to run unnecessary risk at the same time. So, they will go when they are ready to go and when they are sure that they can handle the situation.

CUOMO: One of the things I'm hearing from sources close to the investigation, last time they were having to ask remotely for help and advice about what to deal with different protocols. This time --

ARNAUD: Everybody is here.

CUOMO: All assets are in place.

The last time, 2012, this man had extensively booby trapped where he was holed up.

ARNAUD: Yes, that was in his home. Remember, he had time to do that.

CUOMO: Right.

ARNAUD: What made it difficult as well, it was in a very cluttered urban area. So, there were people all over, there were buildings, which is not the case here.

(CROSSTALK)

CUOMO: There's a reason for deliberateness and delay there that they don't have here.

ARNAUD: Yes. In that sense, it is easier from that standpoint. Today, what makes it difficult, of course, is the hostage situation. CUOMO: Now, in terms of what the French people want out of a

situation like this, OK? Like, for instance, in the United States, when somebody hurts members of the United States, there is an instantaneous blood lust.

What the Americans want is to see those people taken right away, going to the justice system is a formality that's not necessary. How about here? What do you think?

ARNAUD: I think it is different. There is no death penalty here and no wish for a death penalty to be reinstated other than in a minority of a political sense.

CUOMO: We did hear from the ministers, the death penalty should be reinstated. You think that's a sole voice?

ARNAUD: Not a minister. The head of opposition political party, not a minister.

CUOMO: OK.

ARNAUD: So, she was going out and said maybe she wanted it to be reinstated. But she's the only to claim for that.

CUOMO: Minority opinion.

ARNAUD: Yes.

CUOMO: So, here, you think the French people would want the men brought to justice just as much they end their lives here?

ARNAUD: Yes, they would, because I think there's a feeling you don't respond to the terrorists shooting people by going out and shooting people.

CUOMO: You know, that complicates things, though, John and Christine, because we both know, and certainly, John, you know, with your extensive war coverage, it is not easy to take people into custody when they are armed. At least one of them somewhat trained in how to use that weapon. They have shown ample blood lust themselves.

So, taking them into custody is the harder course of action. But, right now, there are ongoing negotiations which, of course, suggests a little bit of a deliberateness, a little bit of process there.

You will forgive me while we are talking keep checking the iPhone. That is how we are getting our information here. Latest report is that the negotiators are really right now working about information inside the building and what they are dealing with and what they believe these two men may plan from there.

And that's the nature of the dialogue they are having with them right now, about trying to figure out what these two men are expecting to come from the situation. That's what we have from here.

BERMAN: Chris, check your iPhone for one minute while we give people a reset of what is happening.

It's important to tell people the developments over the last few minutes, because they are extensive. The French interior ministry tells CNN, tells the world, they believe they have surrounded these terror suspects, Cherif and Said Kouachi. They are surrounded in this town of Dammartin-en-Goele, which is not far from Charles de Gaulle Airport, just northeast of Paris right there, about six or seven miles from the airport.

These men are surrounded. Believe to be in some small catering company. There are French media reports that they are in fact holding hostages. That is a picture right now of the building they are believed to be in right now. It's a file picture. This is what the building looks like from days ago.

You are looking at live pictures right now of law enforcement presence, taped pictures, of law enforcement in and around the village right now, extensively law enforcement right there.

In and out of Charles de Gaulle airport, there are some flight delays, flights being diverted, why? You can see right there, there's helicopters flying overhead right now. It's a precaution. They want to keep the air space clear. This intense focus on the area right now.

Just moments ago, you heard from our Chris Cuomo on the ground in Paris that they are negotiating. Well, I shouldn't say negotiating, they are communicating. French law enforcement is now communicating with the terrorist brothers holed up. And there are reports in French media that these men have indicated they would like to die as martyrs.

ROMANS: What is terrifying about the situation is that the most recent example we have of a hostage-taking situation ended very badly in Australia. You know, there is a recent precedent that is very concerning. You have officials trying to figure out how to diffuse this and how to capture these suspects.

This has been a manhunt for about 48 hours. This is now a negotiation and a hostage situation in the small enterprise in the light industrial area near Charles de Gaulle Airport.

BERMAN: And, Chris and Thierry, if are you still with us, you brought up a key of reporting that developed in CNN overnight. The news from Barbara Starr that one of these brothers Said Kouachi, at least one of these brothers, had traveled to Yemen as recently as 2011 and appeared to receive some kind of small arms training there, perhaps explosive training.

How does that now inform the situation on the ground as French law enforcement, as French intelligence deals with them in what could be their final moments?

CUOMO: Right. I mean, you know, John, you had the immediate suspicion when you saw the bullet pattern on the windshield of the police cruiser. The way they moved and the way the one brother executed the policeman, you know, that nonchalant, that should make a normal warm blooded human heart beat with panic. They did not show it. That is part of the training and delusion of their ideas about humanity.

However, what the police now know or the authorities know or the SWAT team has to deal with is dealing with someone who knows how to handle a weapon. They believe they still have these heavy small arms, these Kalashnikov that they were able to carry with them throughout the night. And he knows how to use it and they could kill from range. It can easily take out this female hostage that they believe they have. So, that's going to be a consideration.

But there are two other considerations they are picking up on. The first situation is dialoguing with the men to create an ease to the moment, relaxation, remove tension. And to get an understanding of what they can from the men about where they are.

Literally trying to use them to figure out what's going on inside that building. Are there points of ingress? Are there things to work to the advantage of the SWAT team for an eventual assault? Because that has to be their plan if they are going to follow this mission sensitive requirement of not letting them move. That is why you see the tentacles of the scene spread as far as they are.

If the intention is not to let the men move to another area, you have to have all of the supporting arteries and points of ingress into neighborhoods sealed off. So, you know you have someone who wants to kill, but you also know you have something else now. The romanticism of a terrorist, and, you know, what they're about, and their idealism, all of that is all drained away in the subsequent actions, John and Christine.

These men are acting like what they are, which cowards. They are running. They are looking to shield themselves from their adversary by using innocent human life. They are not acting like warriors.

And that's something else that the SWAT team has to take into consideration. These men say they will die as martyrs. They have opportunities to do that, they're not taking them themselves.

So, that's something to take into consideration also, creates an instability, but also a need for dialogue. The fact that the men will talk to them is a very good sign that the good guys will be able to control the outcome and, obviously, that's of paramount importance.

ROMANS: What we know that you've got hostage negotiators will have to talk to those, negotiate with those brothers and try to keep the hostage or hostages safe. You know the community is in lockdown. The schools have been closed. Parents have been told to keep their children at home inside.

It is a reminder what it is like to have a major international terrorism in a city where people live. We don't know how many people are in the building "Le Figaro" tweeted out. We don't know how many people are inside there. It looks like a sign-making business, a little factory.

BERMAN: We do now have a statement from French President Francois Hollande. Let's listen.

FRANCOIS HOLLANDE, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): We did so, so that the friendly country could keep its territory integrity and so that we can protect ourselves from aggression, which could come from outside.

And there are threats on the inside as well. They are not new. And our country has been victim in recent decades of attacks and aggression of the terrorist kind.

And we have known for quite a number of months that there were some of them frustrated as the minister has said on many occasions. I cannot give you actual figures, but quite often there were planned attacks which fortunately didn't take place. But others can take place.

So, at the present moment, we should do everything we can to protect our citizens. And that is your responsibility. The minister of interior recalled, and the prime minister also acting as minister of the interior, knows that he can trust what you represent. You are the state.

In your departments, you should show that the state is there in its right place. That means to deploy all that is necessary where there are dangers. Those particular places and to reassure the population that is the meaning of (INAUDIBLE) which has been heightened with the deployment of forces which has been intensified.

Reassure the population that means that they are living under the rule of law and that we want to live together to refuse caricatures and stigmatization and however stressing and all our citizens can be part in parcel of our republic. We need to take preventive measures so as to avoid the repetition of the kind of thing we have just seen.

There can be a copycat effect. That was a serious event in December. And we heard of the possibility that some may use these opportunities to cause other disasters. Information, prevention and all of our intelligence and information services show us that responsibility.

And, finally, we should assure the security and safety of vigils and manifestations. They were respectful and dignified. All citizens can come to manifestations. There is not control over them.

And it -- it is an expression of this conviction that many of us, citizens, will come on Sunday and if the unions and political parties have called for a manifestation, that is their responsibility. It is the citizens who decide to go or not to go to these events, sometimes many decide to go and we need to reassure them and to assure there is protection and free access. That is our responsibility.

There will be manifestation and demonstration in Paris and others throughout the country. I met the president of the association of French mayors yesterday. And he assured me that even in villages, there will be meetings and vigils. And they should be able to be held in a dignified way, which is characteristic of the reaction and guaranteeing protection and security as well. There is international solidarity which we have seen, very strong, in

Europe, in particular, because we are all involved. There have been attacks against friendly countries in recent years. When it is France, then those countries might think that they, too, could be involved. They are involved. So, we need to act at European level.

On Sunday, there will be the ministry of the interior, of European minister of the interior, with cooperation of other ministries from non European countries, in particular the United States. And our prime minister is acting in coordination with intelligence agencies. That is very important.

It shouldn't prevent us from carrying out surveillance on our borders, but also to provide the right to asylum. That's our responsibility. So, we should have the right level of response, in Europe and outside Europe.

I will conclude by expressing my confidence and trust in the action of the various officials. It was the day of the attack, of the drama at "Charlie Hebdo" but I couldn't speak to everyone.

I'm speaking now to you. France is a force, is a strength. It's a guarantee. France has officials and each day they act on behalf of the public interests, aware of their mission and purpose and what they have to do.

These officials in all areas and we see today how useful they are -- the police, Gendarmerie, the magistrate and different authorities, local authorities so that our citizens can be protected when necessary, that there'd be a presence and intervention when necessary.

And France has its principles and its values and what it represents through its officials, it will be able to resist and come through all of these trials. I trust you and I trust our country. This will be shared, a great ability and capacity.

It doesn't mean that there might be a number of shortcomings of errors, which we may live through, but capacity is great when we can meet and come together around what brings us together. You, police, you can make sure that French people can live together in security and have trust in the future.

Thank you.

BERMAN: What you saw there were some broad sweeping comments from French President Francois Hollande, reassuring that they are taking care of the situation on the ground, I think trying to boost moral support for the situation, law enforcement situation, saying France is a force. We will deal with this situation, noting he will meet with officials from all over the world on Sunday this week in France to talk about terrorism.

ROMANS: What's happening on the ground there, you can see on the side of your screen is veritable siege in the city not far from Charles de Gaulle Airport, northeast of Paris. A veritable siege because you have two men who authorities think are the terrorists in a small, what looks to be a sign making factory with at least one hostage. Reports saying that hostage is a woman and those hostages have spoken with negotiators there.

Just arriving now is our correspondent Fred Pleitgen.

You know, when I look at the French media reports and what people are saying online about what's happening in that town. They say the town is like a war. They are veritably under siege there.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Yes, I wouldn't necessary say it's a war, but it is certainly a town that under siege.

You can tell that the police -- I just arrived at the last police barricade for the actual area of this operation. You can tell that the police are on edge. What they're doing is they moved the barricades around. You have a lot of police vehicles that are stationed here, but you also have a lot of police vehicles that are driving around and have their horns on every once in a while, you have a convoy of police come past us.

We do know in the area the schools are all on lockdown. Apparently at 10:00 a.m., there was one school saw a helicopter overhead. They got the order to put the school on lockdown. Students were not supposed to go out.

The residents of this area have all been ordered to stay indoors. Police here who are trying to clear the area of media and other onlookers as they seem to be expanding this area that is cordoned off.

So, from our vantage point here, it appears as though they have a strategy where they are trying to get the civilians in this area as well out of the area. They're trying to cordoned the area off in a large scale and try to move in further and further through that place where these two suspects are presumably have one hostage.

So, a very large operation. You can tell the police here -- I would not necessarily say are on edge, but very, very focused and determined as they deal with us, the media, and also they conduct this operation here.

BERMAN: The situation as it goes on right now. The French interior ministry says they believe they have surrounded the suspects in the terror attack in Paris two days ago, Cherif and Said Kouachi. These men are now believed to be holed up inside what is some kind of printing factory or small printing office.