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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Report: Hostage Negotiation Underway; Terrorists "Want To Die As Martyrs"

Aired January 09, 2015 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: The French Interior Ministry says they believed they have surrounded the suspects in the terror attack in Paris two days ago. Said and Cherif Kouachi, these men are now believed to be holed up inside what is some kind of printing factory or small printing office or a sign making office in the town of Dammartin-En-Goele.

That is where we are hearing from Frederik Pleitgen right now. They are reports that these men are holding as many -- well, at least one hostage.

Just a short time ago on French TV, a member of parliament said that the police have spoken to these men, have spoken to these terrorists. This French official said they told police they would like to die as martyrs that report a short time ago on French television.

Clearly this ongoing situation where you are, Frederik Pleitgen, and you are reporting that there seems to be some effort to get civilians out of town as more law enforcement moves into town.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Yes, you can absolutely see that. The other interesting thing, on the way out here, the area you are talking about is actually quite interesting. It is a small town which does cover a wide area though.

There are several highway exits that actually lead to this place. All have massive police convoys on them. Police are stopping any vehicles trying to get off the highway in those areas from doing so. You can see that that they are making this area a big one.

They are putting out a very wide net and then narrowing it down. It does appear they have the suspects cornered in the place. They are making sure to get people out of the area in a very, very large area around that place where the people are holed up.

Right now, I'm seeing another police convoy come toward us. There are some police cars racing down the street. You can tell that even though everything appears to be in place for the siege they are going on right now, they are still moving around a lot.

There seems to be a lot of motion. There are helicopters in the air as well. It is a very dynamic operation. It appears as though the suspects are cornered at this moment. Police officers are getting out of their car right now. They are barking out orders. I cannot make out at this point, but they clearly are telling people to do something. It certainly is something which is a big dynamic. The cops are here telling us to do something. I have to get off the phone. The cops are telling us to move away.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Please, by all means, do what you have to do. I know you have reporting to do and also the police. Folks, what you are seeing are live pictures of what is happening there right now as law enforcement and SWAT teams and police and firefighters and now we know squads from local hospital are trying to get ready and stage for whatever is going to happen here next.

BERMAN: And the French Interior Ministry is saying just now that the Kouachi brothers, Said And Cherif Kouachi, the men suspected of staging that terror assault on "Charlie Hebdo" just two days ago, they are almost certainly the men holed up in the town northeast of Paris. Just around the Charles De Gaulle Airport, the town of Dammartin-En- Goele.

You're looking at pictures of these two suspects right now. They are almost certainly the men believed to be holed up right now and they refer to them as hostage takers. They are believed to be holding one hostage. The French Interior Ministry, I believe now, referring them as hostage takers.

So removing some of the mystery there and clearly giving us the sense of just how intense this situation is. Our Frederik Pleitgen had to get off the phone with us, being pushed back by police, which is understandable given the ongoing operation.

Let's get to Chris Cuomo right now in Paris near the newspaper of "Charlie Hebdo" which was attacked two days ago. Chris, we are watching this unfolding situation developing frantically really over the last two hours or so.

These brothers have moved into this town and moved into this building, and now believed to be with the hostage and now apparently communicating directly with police -- Chris.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": Right. We have some new information about what is going on right for and some new information about the planning. What Christine was just mentioning is very important. Medical teams are on the scene now.

That is very important because they would not stage an assault or make a move in this without having the right medical back-up for any eventualities that go along with it.

So having the teams in place, which we are told they are now, is critically important. To what Fred was saying about how they have been staging the different levels of containment here that all seems to be right, but operating in reverse.

First, they chased the suspects in the area and secured them in that place and that building. Then they start to fan out. All points of egress from there then get blocked off. Ingress into the communities gets blocked off.

Then you shut down the community. You try to get people out. You stage away from the point of crisis. So that you start to do as much particular containment as you can if things go wrong.

The reason Fred is being moved away is because their understanding of the weapons that these men have, as you well know, John, have significant range.

So if there is any kind of firefight, a kalashnikov could well kill you from 100 yards, 200 yards away. So they want make sure they have a very clear area. Now in terms of the communications with these men, how many other people are in the building? Do the men know?

What is it like in the building? Do the men know very often unsophisticated scared people like who they are dealing with right now may give them information that is very vital?

In terms of what they are able to do, the S.W.A.T. team leader does have full authority to launch an assault. There is a big caveat on that, which is preservation of life of the hostage involved. That is a very important consideration.

There also seems to be pretty significant leaning on the president. This was somewhat unusual for me to hear. He is very tied in to the actual stages of operation that the president is very much in control of what happens. They have to check with him before they do things.

So that is part of this ongoing dynamic as well. So that is what we are hearing in terms of the latest. The medical teams are in place. That means they could be ready for an assault if they deem it worth the risk to do it.

BERMAN: Chris, not to be glib, but it seems if, in fact, these men are in that building, they are not getting out of this village. The issue here is how does this unfold given the French police and authorities as you have reported, their mission is to not let them out of the village. It is creating the best outcome available that seems to be the goal here.

CUOMO: Yes. Also, you then have the function of time. Time is a commodity, right? Time in a situation like this we are told works in favor of the good guys. That the longer that these men are in there, common sense, would have told me, wouldn't they become more unstable or less able to judge their actions?

But I'm told time works on the side of the good guys. They are exhausted and they know their options are cut down. It gives the good guys, the S.W.A.T. team more time to plan and think and have contingencies in place and do the outer rings of preparation and get the medical team there.

And that the longer this goes, the more satisfactory they believe the outcome will be so they are not in a rush. That, however, obviously, is checked by the welfare of the hostage involved. ROMANS: The parallels, Chris, to what we covered unfolding in Boston a year and a half ago are pretty striking. We spoke to Ed Davis, the former Boston police commissioner, who said, the same thing basically.

Two brothers holed up, unpredictable, desperate, a high degree of planning in the beginning of their operation, but no exit strategy starting to come unraveled. That's what hostage negotiators have to deal with.

CUOMO: Well, absolutely, but also remember, Boston was really a bad set of circumstances for the good guys there. They are in such a densely populated area. At least one of the brothers, once they took out the older brother, the younger one knew where he was going. Could move in and out of buildings and put a lot of other people at risk.

That obviously created real containment issues there. They also didn't know how big a team they were dealing with their at that point. Remember how they were going into places and thinking others may be involved. We saw a lot of what we thought were arrests of primaries that wind up not being.

This is different. We now know that these two men are largely operating alone. If anyone has been supporting them, they have done a horrible job because there has been absolutely no consistency or intelligence to their actions in terms of giving them any practical chance of escape.

That is good obviously for the cause of justice. So here, they are in a place now where you have an unknown number of people. It is populated. It is industrial. It would have been better if they could have done this in one of these open fields with the woods, of course.

So they have to deal with the situation as it lies. That is why they are dealing with specific containment and then remote areas of containment because the worst scenario obviously is loss of life and these men making an escape.

ROMANS: Chris, we will let you do some reporting and catch up on what the French media are saying. I want to go back to Atika Shubert. She is in Dammartin-En-Goele.

We were just, Atika, talking to Frederik Pleitgen on the phone and the police were moving the perimeter and were giving new instructions to the media. What is happening there now?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): That is right. I'm in that area. They just pushed the media back several kilometers from Dammartin-En-Goele. Traffic is coming out of the town, but they are stopping anyone going in.

We can't see the ongoing operation. All we know is that police are pushing us back at this point. There is heavy fog in the town at the moment. We don't see any helicopters up that might be why they are not flying at the moment.

So that's what we know so far. They're clearly trying to clear people out of the area. Certainly keep the press away. It looks like a number of residents are coming from the town as well.

BERMAN: Let's remind people what we are seeing now. The French Interior Ministry says they believed they have these two men. You are looking at pictures of them right there on the left handside of the screen, Said and Cherif Kouachi.

French Interior Ministry say they are now surrounded in the town of Dammartin-En-Goele, which is about north east of Paris, very near Charles de Gaulle airport.

Our Atika Shubert is there. A huge police presence inside that town. People and the media being pushed back outside of town at least a kilometer or two perhaps because there is fear of the range of the weapons that these men still might have inside that building.

They are believed to have at least one hostage holed up inside this building. A French member of parliament says they are now talking to police. This French Member of Parliament says the terrorists say they would like to die as martyrs.

So there is an ongoing situation happening right now at this moment where Atika is. Atika, you have been following these men, in a sense, over the last 24 to 48 hours. Remind us how we got here.

Yesterday, you were at the gas station the men were believed to have held up and robbed and drove off. And then they were believed to have gone to a town and perhaps tried to hide in a forest. How did we get from there to here?

SHUBERT: You know, it really started with that I.D. card that was found in that first car that the attackers used. Said Kouachi, that was his I.D. that led police to his apartment. We saw the raid into the apartment, a very heavily armed presence there.

The next morning is when they had this gas attendant at 10:30, he reported and saw the suspects that came into his gas station heavily armed. Stole fuel and food and then quickly left.

Police pursued them. Now what we understand is that they started searching the area around the gas station. That is a heavily forested area. They used helicopters and thermo imaging to try to find them.

Overnight, they kept searching. As far as we know they did not sight them. However, at around 10:00 this morning, it appears they stole a car near Dammartin-En-Goele. Then they were cornered in this industrial area.

We understand they are inside the building. It is a publishing or printing company. It is a retail area. There is a supermarket nearby. There are a number of different shops. As you can imagine, everything now is on lockdown.

We spoke to the principal of the school nearby just around the corner from the area. She says all students are inside. They are trying to -- nobody is allowed to go out at this point. They are all nervous about what has happened. They are seeing a very heavy police presence.

ROMANS: All right, Atika Shubert there in Dammartin-En-Goele in France where these two suspects appeared to have been cornered. The police moving the media back and trying to make sure there is no way out for the suspects and trying to make sure that people in that town are safe and are sheltered in place.

I want to go to terrorism expert, Sajjan Gohel, again and talk a little bit about how this is unfolding. You have a local lawmaker saying that these two suspects have talked to hostage negotiators, have talked to police. These terrorists want to die as martyrs.

Chris Cuomo making a very interesting point, they had plenty of chances to die as martyrs. But instead, this horror just continues to unfold.

SAJJAN GOHEL, TERRORISM EXPERT: And unfortunately it is potentially going to reach a climax now. My concern is with the potential hostages that they have taken. These individuals, they talk about martyrdom, but they want the issues to linger.

They want their terrorism to be visualized as we've witnessed over the last couple of days. This has become a tactic that these groups have adopted. These individuals have become very skilled in knowing how to manipulate that for the situation. They want to continue until it ends in a very bloody way.

ROMANS: We have seen it evolve, haven't we? From suicide or multiple suicide bombings to now really drawing out the episode for maximum terror PR.

GOHEL: Very much so. It is effectively what is called a mission where the individuals will not necessarily blow themselves up, but try to kill as many people as possible and die in a hail of bullets. It has another term which is to plunge into the so-called enemy.

This is based on the medieval scholar. These individuals read these texts. It is part of an ideology. Counterterrorism is about capturing, arresting and prosecuting.

But we need to start to engage in the ideologies to what motivates these individuals to try and tackle it. For every individual captured or killed, another five are coming on the assembly line.

BERMAN: People who are just waking up, what's happening right now is that French law enforcement has surrounded they believed the two terror suspects in the shooting at "Charlie Hebdo." The men believed to have killed, massacred 12 people inside that newspaper and wounded so many others.

They've been on the run now for two days. French authorities now believe they have the men surrounded. They also believed that they are holding at least one hostage at this moment. Sir, we received news overnight that at least one of -- are you still with me? Are you still with me?

GOHEL: Yes, I am.

BERMAN: I was going to say, we received news overnight that at least one of these brothers, Said Kouachi, had traveled to Yemen and received training there, had contact with al Qaeda there. How do you think that that information now changes situation we're seeing on the ground right now?

GOHEL: It is an important dynamic. We know the al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula has tried to target the west in the past. Remember the underpants bombing plot with Faruk Abdul Muttallab (ph) who tried to bring down a Trans-Atlantic flight.

Then you also had the lofty ambitions. They have a transnational agenda. If there is a connection to Yemen, it needs to be investigated because it shows that there are new groups that have assumed the mantle of al Qaeda.

And you also should not forget that Sharif Kouachi had actually wanted to travel to Iraq ten years ago and link up with Abu Musabal Zakawi (ph) the Jordanian terrorist who visualized terrorism by beheading people on camera.

There is a history and a connection to these two individuals, which needs to be delved into further.

ROMANS: Sajjan Gohel, terrorism expert, thank you so much for that fantastic background and context for what these men, the ideology not just the police operation, the ideology behind these brothers.

Let's get back to the scene outside of the "Charlie Hebdo" offices where Jim and Chris are. Right now this is very much a police operation at this point trying to minimize the damage these two very desperate suspects could bring.

CUOMO: Well, I think that the primary point right now is that we are going to have to wait. This could take a very long time. We know they had a standoff in 2012. Yes, the man was in his house. They believe it was booby trapped.

They knew there was no further exposure to others and there was a reason to be deliberate and entering because of the booby trapped so they allowed time to playoff about 24 hours there.

I'm told that in this instance, now that they know the surrounding community is safe and they understand relatively the level of exposure to danger to others, this could take hours and hours. That's what we were told.

And a lot of this, Jim and I were just discussing, the negotiators and the police and the S.W.A.T. team trying to get a sense of who these are as men and what they may be capable of -- Jim.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One of the things we have seen here in France, not just that one incident you talked about. They have a good track record of hostage release and negotiating weapons away from people who want to kill themselves or other people. They have a pretty good track record of doing it without bloodshed. So I think that they are very experience with the techniques and that's what they are doing.

Also gathering information, we heard this interview this morning on one of the local radio stations and basically with a guy, who supposedly shook hands with one of the suspects.

CUOMO: Not because he liked them. He mistook him for someone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was at that factory, a reception guy at the factory. He took the suspect to be a police officer who came in dressed in black with a weapon thought that he was a police officer. The guy said to him, get out of here.

We don't want to kill civilians. So he followed the orders. He thought it was strange that is the way the police officer was in that way. He said this is not a police officer.

CUOMO: Right. Obviously now part of the critical analysis is that a true beneficent. You know, we do know that they mistook the building here at the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" and there were maintenance workers downstairs and the men they asked, which is the right building. When they got the right answer, they opened fire on them.

That, of course, contrasts with what we heard from the expert just moments ago, John and Christine, he used the term type of mentality about them killing as many as they can before they themselves were killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just to go back, Chris, there is something that we heard earlier from the French president. It seemed like it was disconnected from the current situation. In fact, it was. I mean, basically he was speaking at a meeting of the top officers.

About 90 or 100 gathered this morning after the "Charlie Hebdo" attack here. They wanted to bring everybody in to talk about what the mindset should be. That is what the president was doing. He was not really talking about the events today, played out on the events going out in the field.

CUOMO: Right. Well, he has to deal with both as the president and as we learned from some of the sources close to the investigation, the president very much involved with the operations in the field. That they are reaching out to him to let him know about the situation.

They would be waiting on him for word. Of course, that is checked and balanced by the elite S.W.A.T. team commander, John, who does have authority to act when he thinks appropriate if it can be done without exposure to the risk to the hostage they believed that's inside.

BERMAN: Chris, I want to pick up on one thing you said that I found very, very interesting. You said you have been told by French officials near or close to the scene, at this point, they just need to wait. That it could take hours for this to develop. I wonder if you have a sense of what exactly happens then within these hours. You know we have been talking about the similarities to Boston. Let's talk about Sydney where you had a guy perhaps not with as much training as at least one of these brothers seemed to have with an armed man inside a chocolate shop with a number of hostages.

Authorities watched and waited there, and then ultimately did end up moving in, but there was loss of life.

CUOMO: Right. You know, obviously the big distinguishing factor between here and Australia is the number of hostages and the control that they had over safety and the possibility of release.

In Australia, of course, we saw escape, not release. Here, let's say they are right about what they are dealing with the authorities in terms of one hostage. Who else is in that building? What is the risk to them if they enter?

You know, unlike the terrorists, the interest of the police is the preservation of life. So time is on their side because if there are not more people exposed to danger, they might as well wait it out.

See if these men can grab on to some sense of reason in their minds and surrender. If not, then they'll take matters into their own hands. But they are telling us there is no reason to rush at this point unless that female hostage becomes in danger or others do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a rural area. This is a small town, 9,000 people. It is a very different situation that way, too. This looks to be a mom and pop printing operation probably not too many employees so maximum number of hostages would not be as many as Sydney.

CUOMO: John and Christine.

ROMANS: The story, Jim, you were saying, the radio interview you're telling is about the handshake of the man in the factory who saw a gunman come in and mistook him as a police officer. The inconsistencies over the past 48 hours, I think, are sort of remarkable.

I mean, you have the gunman asking for directions to the "Charlie Hebdo" newsroom. Then shooting one of the maintenance workers and killing him. Yet not injuring the person at the gas station and now apparently letting at least one person go from the factory. It is inconsistent.

BERMAN: What we are going to do right now is remind people exactly what is happening right now in this town of Dammartin-En-Goele. Police have surrounded the two men behind the Charlie (inaudible) the two terrorists who killed 12 men and wounded so many others.

They are believed now to be holding at least one hostage inside a building. They are surrounded. There are reports they are communicating with the local police. This is a rapidly developing situation. So many things have happened over just the last few hours. We will take a quick break and "NEW DAY" will pick up with all the latest just ahead.

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