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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Official: Suspected Mastermind of Paris Attacks Targeted. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I am sure they have emergency meetings all the time because of this, particularly with people still at large and particularly the big fear as they have said ever since Friday that there may be repeat attacks. So, there's that fear and then there's the imperative to catch these people, who may threaten for French citizens. So, that is no doubt something ongoing.

[04:00:00] And yes, we were told, he may be meeting with his top, you know, prime minister, interior minister, et cetera. But remember he said, you know, Syria is the biggest terrorist factory in the world right now. So, to that end, he will be going for more intelligence sharing with the Americans. They've already offered more intelligence to Russia, to get them to not have two separate strategies.

Even President Obama today in the Philippines says that Russia still needs to be onboard. Get with the program. We have one strategy against is in Syria.

HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Christiane.

Christiane Amanpour, John Berman, I'm Hala Gorani. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world.

We continue to follow this dramatic developing story in Paris, as police north of the center of Paris have killed, we are hearing, at least three terrorism suspects in a massive pre-dawn raid. And sources tell CNN those suspects are thought to be connected to Friday's deadly attacks.

And, John and Christiane, at least five other people are under arrest. Take a look at some of this footage.

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JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: All right. You can hear what went on. You can hear the gunshots. Later on, there were a series of explosions as well.

There was heavily armed police, SWAT teams. There's a military presence around Saint-Denis this morning as part of this raid that's been going on now for, oh, about five hours. And we do understand that it is still ongoing, although, perhaps, winding down, based on our sources on the ground. The Paris prosecutor says at this point, that three people, three suspected terrorists have been killed. At least five people under arrest, including three who were taken into custody. One of those killed, a woman who blew herself up early in the operation.

GORANI: And as so many of the journalists and experts we have been speaking two who know this area very well have been saying almost every aspect of this story has been unprecedented.

BERMAN: Unprecedented.

GORANI: France never had suicide bombers, certainly never a female suicide bomber. And we were discussing the fact that we had no idea -- I don't know for how long intelligence services knew -- that there were potentially up to six suspected terrorists connected to Friday's attacks still on the loose.

BERMAN: And one of the keys here, the target of this operation, this morning, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who is believed to be the mastermind behind the attacks here on Friday. Not to mention other attacks. A 26 yield, 27-year-old Belgium man, believed to be close to Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. This guy has been to Syria, but he was the target of this raid. For some reason, they thought he might be in Saint-Denis this morning. We don't know for a fact that he was there. We don't know if he is among the killed. We do not know if he is among the arrested, but we do know he was the target of this raid.

GORANI: Well, it's a very fluid situation.

Senior international correspondent Atika Shubert is in Saint-Denis, part of our team covering this developing story.

Atika, what's the situation right now?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it does seem to be winding down. Police visibly more relaxed, although, there is still quite a few police in riot gear that have weapons, I can also still see soldiers inside stationed around the area there. It happened just perhaps maybe a few hundred meters down there.

That's where we saw units moving earlier in the early hours of the morning. Information at one point having their guns pointed up towards the upper floors of the apartment there. So, a very tense and dramatic situation. It started around 4:30 in the morning with that gunfire. Residents saying they are woken up by the sound of what seemed like automatic gunfire and an explosion.

One woman we spoke to, one man we spoke to said he was about to leave for work just before 5:00 a.m. when police told him to evacuate. So, he quickly rushed in, grabbed his 3-year-old daughter and brought them outside.

Other residents were told to stay inside and away from the windows. It was absolutely terrifying for residents here. Later on, we heard that series of explosions. And the operation is still ongoing. So, as you can imagine, it is a frightening and surreal experience for those residents here in Saint-Denis.

[04:05:00] BERMAN: Atika Shubert in Saint-Denis with these operations going on for five hours now. Thank you for your reporting.

We should note, President Obama, we're told by our senior White House correspondent, Jim Acosta, President Obama who is traveling to the Philippines and ultimately Malaysia, he has been informed of this operation. He has been read into what is going on. It's just that big and perhaps that significant of an operation.

Atika, do you know anything about the people who were taken into custody on the streets? We know that three people were arrested from inside the building. Three people killed. We are also told that several or at least a few were arrested on the streets.

Any information about who they might be or how they might be connected?

SHUBERT: From our affiliates, in addition to the six people in the actual apartment, they were looking at who organized for them to stay there. So, according to our affiliate BFMTV, it was really the landlord of the apartment, who was also in that area in that area, in that vicinity, he was taken in, arrested. Another woman was taken in with him.

So, this is all a part of the investigation to try and figure out not just what the suspects were doing there, the network around them. What allowed them to carry out these attacks?

And again, incredibly, Saint-Denis is where one of the attacks occurred. The attack on the stadium, three suicide bombers blew themselves up. So, to think that possibly, the perpetrators of the attack for just, you know, especially in the neighborhood the whole time and in the aftermath of this, the attacks, is astonishing.

GORANI: Atika Shubert, stand by.

We'll get back to Atika for the latest from Saint-Denis.

Thierry Arnaud joins us once again. Describe a little bit Saint-Denis here, because it's an interesting neighborhood in France. It's one of the close suburbs, really greater Paris.

THIERRY ARNAUD, BFMTV JOURNALIST: Yes, just on the outskirts of Paris, north of Paris, it's as close a melting pot you can get in this city, in this French capital. It's very ethically diverse. It enjoys a serious renewal for the past five-to-ten years, large companies set up the HQs there, plus, there's this soccer stadium, the Stade de France, when one part of the attack was carried out on Friday. It has been built in Soccer Cup in the world final in '98.

BERMAN: It was about to host the European championship.

ARNAUD: The whole country is about to host the European championship. BERMAN: Yes, there will be lots of games there.

ARNAUD: There will be lots of games there. So it's an interesting part of Paris, against diverse, very working class and it's quite shocking, really, what's happening today here.

GORANI: I have to ask you about the -- I mean, we all woke up to this surprising news. We thought one intellect is on the loose, it turns out, programs, up to six.

ARNAUD: Yes

GORANI: We don't know, perhaps even the mastermind is among those, either killed or arrested. How were so many clues missed here?

ARNAUD: I don't know, it's really puzzling. You are absolutely right. We have the feeling one suspect was on the loose. We heard two yesterday.

And when I left the office around 10:00 p.m. last night, we sort of got a sense that something was going to happen fairly shortly. We kind of got ready for something to happen throughout the night, because we knew something was going on. It was made the clear they were pretty hot pursuits there. There were some serious leads.

BERMAN: The math did not do it, because it can be as many as six. Three suspected terrorists dead. As many as three or five now taken into custody. That's a lot of people.

ARNAUD: That's absolutely right. That's the true surprise, because usually, when ISIS claims attacks, they get very precise information. And they talked about a terrorist and there might be as far -- around 15 so far.

GORANI: And, yes, Thierry, the question is, was it a support network, was it not the frontline, sort of, quote/unquote, "terrorist combatants" terrorizing the attacks? Were they referring only to the men who were going to kill or explode themselves, rather than the underlying support? Because this need to be planned very carefully.

Suicide vests are not easy to put together. The material is volatile. You need pre-planning. You need to rent apartment, you need to rent cars. You need finance trips across borders. So could this have been some sort of support network here?

BERMAN: It has to be one of the things they're looking into right now.

Again, the news this morning as we look at them putting up some kind of a tarp there, which usually indicates they planned to be there for sometime. I mean, they are setting up a staging operation inside that neighborhood in Saint-Denis -- enormous law enforcement presence. We've seen military, you've seen police of all kinds, you've seen some medical personnel there as well.

Three suspected terrorists killed, three taken into custody from inside the building during this raid. Two people, perhaps, arrested on the streets outside and the target -- the target we are told from intelligence officials in Belgium and France, the target of this operation, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, believed to be the mastermind behind these attacks in Paris on Friday.

[04:10:10] And President Francois Hollande in his address to the joint session of parliament said this was an operation conceived in Syria, organized in Belgium, carried out in France -- this is France. This raid is going on in France. You have, perhaps, terrorist leaders operating right next to the stadium where they carried out these attacks.

ARNAUD: You're absolutely right, John. If it turns out to be the case that Abaaoud who was in France all along, it will be a major surprised and it will be a major security failure, obviously, because everybody up until a few hours ago, seemed at least to us to be convinced that he was still in Syria, and that's was where he was organizing and masterminding the whole operation. And to find out this morning that maybe it turns out he was here amongst us all along is a major surprise.

BERMAN: Maybe. We should say maybe.

ARNAUD: Maybe, absolutely.

BERMAN: We just don't know if he's one of the three killed, one of those in custody or whether he was even there. But the mere fact that they suspected he might be is an extraordinary development.

ARNAUD: Just what I want to point out very quickly. What is very striking, as intensely frustrating as that, when you were talking to French politicians and senior security sources, all these weeks ago, they were telling you that they were almost certain a new attack would be carried out. When they would describe to you the scenario, the nightmare scenario of what could happen, it was so close to what we have been seeing.

GORANI: Interesting.

Let's bring our viewers -- thank you, Thierry. It's always great getting your analysis and perspective.

We were seeing some sort of tense, being fed up. That also could be sort of forensic analysis.

BERMAN: Sure.

GORANI: That happens often, where they have to kind of set up a little mobile area, where they can analyze, because if, indeed, there was forensic material that can be looked at a little bit outside that apartment as well as inside the apartment, where we understand a female suicide bomber killed herself. That could also be one of the possibilities here.

BERMAN: It means they're staying a while. They're bringing more people in as opposed to if you were removing folks right now. Although it doesn't seem to be the ongoing shooting operation that it was several hours ago.

A lot of gunshots, about five hours ago, several explosions about three hours ago in the last hour or so, this is what we have seen right now, law enforcement, various authorities moving about, staging in and around this area, where three suspected terrorists are killed, including one woman early on in this operation, Hala, blew herself up.

GORANI: All right. It is still ongoing, but as our Atika Shubert, as well as our Frederik Pleitgen had been reporting, perhaps a very active sort of raid portion of this operation has wrapped up. However, it is not over. Police officer, official, SWAT teams all still there ambulances, fire trucks. It is a full security operation sort of set up that you would see in a tense and dramatic situation.

BERMAN: We heard from Atika a moment.

I think our Frederik Pleitgen is there with us in Saint-Denis. Also, he's in a different vantage point in Saint-Denis.

Fred, give us a sense of what you are seeing right now.

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, I'm actually at the exact opposite end. There is a bunch of police motorcycles that just went in the through the barricade here, it's where the pool of journalists that we have here. And I can certainly confirm this operation doesn't appear to be winding down. It appears to be bringing in reinforcements.

I think the road right now is one of the main ones that they are using to bring additional people and also additional vehicles there to the scene. We've seen several police van with police in riot gear, also police in bulletproof vests come through the streets. The area is cordoned off in a very, very wide location here. There is a lot of police officers on the streets stopping people also from going through here because they don't want people on the ground.

It certainly doesn't seem to be the case, John, that this at this point is a waiting game. It certainly is for the long run. Again, we keep seeing more and more officers coming in. Some are coming out. It might be a sort of shift change or something like that.

But certainly, a very interesting twist of events. And one of the things that I think they get away with, that we have seen so far, that have been apprehended by the police, one close to here yesterday. The black Renault Clio, the black Seat Leon that was in the different part of Paris.

And then, of course, the one that was at the Bataclan shooting, they were all still in the Paris area and it was unclear whether or not the attackers have left the area. So it certainly is something that is an interesting point if, indeed, it turns out that some of them might have been hiding here in Saint-Denis the entire time, John.

[04:15:06] BERMAN: And, Frederik, Christiane Amanpour, senior international correspondent, is with us a short time ago. She said she was getting information there were also raids in Bobigny, where you were yesterday because that was an area where some of the attackers were believed to have rented some kind of space for the previous week.

PLEITGEN: Well, they certainly were raised in the vicinity of here. There was some in Saint-Denis, but also generally in the northeast of Paris, for instance, in Bobigny, where I was a couple days ago as well. There were raids going on there.

So, it does appear to have been some sort of activity here. The other thing about all this is that this would be if, indeed, some of the attackers would be here. This would be the third apartment or hotel that they would have wanted to see and as part of the state house/safe area. There was one in Bobigny that was found also in the northeast of Paris, which was found by the police and then raided. One of the attackers came from there.

There was another one sort of the west from here. Now, there would be this one. It does appear there was a logistical web at work here, which would have required a considerable amount of planning. Of course, we are still waiting to get the results of what's going on here. We don't know what this apartment was, in fact, used for. We don't know who was inside, whether or not this was some sort of support network, whether or not it might have been some of the attackers or the plotters, themselves, inside that apartment.

Of course, judging by the size of the operation that's going on here, judging by the violence that we've seen in the early morning hours here today, it does appear as though the police must have struck something. They must have gone into something that appears to be much bigger of a nest than anyone might have thought prior to all of this. But it is still unclear what sort of role these apartments in Saint- Denis played, what sort of people were inside, how much they actually knew about the operation.

Those were all things that we're still waiting to find out. And as you are seeing, them budget up that tarp out there, certainly it does indicate that they are in it for a long run. They might want to block the view of the press. They might want to also block the view of anybody inside that apartment, to make sure they have absolutely nothing to inhibit the operation that is still going on.

It certainly is very much going on. Right now, you can see another motorcade of a police motorcycle coming through here right now. They're telling the press to get out of the way. This is something that's been ongoing -- the police on the move, bringing forces in and out of that immediate vicinity where all of there has been going on for almost five hours now. So, a very, very long standoff, we have been seeing here -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Frederik Pleitgen for us in Saint-Denis, where obviously, there is some activity still going on -- Fred, thank you so much.

GORANI: All right. CNN terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank is with us for more. I am reading reports that one of the concerns of authorities right now

that apartment may be booby trapped. So, even though some -- obviously, something took place there. A female suicide bomber killed herself there. They have to be very, very careful going in.

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: They have to be extremely careful. I mean, ISIS has a track record of putting IED, booby traps in place. It would appear they have been for some time, Hala, one woman blew herself up at the beginning of the raid, we understand. So, they'll be very careful.

There will be likely a treasure trove of information. This is urgent information, because these Paris attacks may not be over. I mean, I think all the indications are, given the weapons they have. Given that one of them blew themselves up, is that this was perhaps a second attack scene primed to launch an attack in the coming days or even the coming hours. I think there will be huge concern about that, that it was even more than ambitious than we understood.

So there could be others, you know, even a third attack team out there, there could be other, a part of the potential plans, second wave as well, Hala. You know, it's really a stunning development. So there will be eight more people, guys, eight more people, three which have been killed. Five of which have been taken into custody. That's the same number as that first attack, right?

BERMAN: Two things -- first of all, number one, tell us what you know, what your sources have been telling you? Because you've been working about the targeted attacks. Was it Abdelhamid Abaaoud? Was he target?

And secondly, you keep on bringing up this possibility that there are more attacks in the works. Are your sources raising this as a concern?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, here's what we know. A senior Belgium counter- terrorism official cold me just a little while ago that information came into 47 and Belgium investigators. They're developing this information and that's suggested that there were some priority targets at this residence in Saint-Denis, including possibly and I must stress possibly, Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

[04:20:11] It was a hypothesis that he could be there. When the French police went in, they did not know for sure he was there. That is the extent of the information CNN has confirmed through one of the top investigators in Belgium. This has been a sleepless night for counterterrorism officials in Belgium, in France, major developments here.

The concern is that there could be more ways that will come down the pipeline. It's not a case of specific intelligence pointing to that. But, look, you had this one group of eight people who launched a terrible deadly attack. Now you are seeing another group of people who have been arrested or killed where it would appear explosives maybe heavy weapons as well. Look, I mean, what are they doing in Paris if they're not here for

tourism and, you know, if they didn't join in with that first wave, I think, certainly, the sort of one of the plausible conclusions, John, is that this is a second wave that is being run. I struggle to find any other explanation.

GORANI: If it could be a support network. Sort of a support underlying structure for the Friday attacks. I mean, ISIS did say eight attackers, we know seven were killed. We know there is one presumed to be on the loose right now. Is this another team or is the first one on Friday?

CRUICKSHANK: Look, I mean, the police go in, from everything we are hearing so far heavy weapons, explosives. There is a reason they have these. It's not to force people. It's very likely they are inclined, they want, ISIS wants them to kill as many people as possible.

I think that it sort of -- it beggars the believe belief they would be the support network.

BERMAN: You have to be prepared, certainly, no matter what, you certainly have to go if presuming that perhaps they would attack again.

Finally, I want to reset here in a moment. Paul, if there were five suspected terrorists in custody. They killed three suspected terrorists. They made three arrests, perhaps two more on the street. You say a treasure trove of computers were there. That's a lot of intelligence.

CRUICKSHANK: Absolutely. They will be interrogating them around the clock trying to find out what more is planned, because there really could be more in the pipeline. I think all the intelligence points to ISIS pulling a string of attacks against France, a string of attacks against Europe.

They suspect the mastermind Abdelhamid Abaaoud is being connected to a whole series of plots against France and Belgium and you go about that in general. We have been talking about it from her cell phone from Greece in that attempt and a profile source. April, there was a plot by an Algerian student here in Paris, who meets with French ISIS fighters in Turkey. They direct them to come back. He goes, Abaaoud is also suspected to have a link in that plot.

Then, the train attack by Ayoub el Khazzani, those three American heroes. I mean, that could have been awful, right?

GORANI: And a Jewish school as well.

(CROSSTALK)

CRUICKSHANK: Of course, absolutely, Hala, back in May of 2014 this French ISIS fighter who went and shot up a museum, killed four people, and that the working French authorities. He was an ISIS-inspired, let's put it this way. He was an ISIS fighter that had come back and launched this on his own scene. For the fact now that we understand and are able to report that

Abdelhamid Abaaoud was if contact with him, knew him, so just that may also have been an ISIS directed plot to some degree. So, there appears to be a full frontal ISIS campaign to launch attack there is this country, with several attack teams potentially, at least two we know about. I think the coming days are going to be extraordinarily worrying for everybody here in Paris.

GORANI: OK. Paul Cruickshank, thanks very much.

We want to remind our viewers of the importance and significant breaking news that we are covering on CNN. There is no shell shock in Paris. Take a look at some of the images that came into us overnight.

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BERMAN: Gunshots, explosions, ring out in Saint-Denis, it's a neighborhood just north of Paris. French police, SWAT teams, military targeting people.

[04:25:03] They believe to be connected of Friday's terrorist attacks. At this point, police say three suspected terrorists are dead, including a woman who blew herself up earlier in the raid.

GORANI: Now, five other people are under arrest. Three from inside this apartment, two outside the apartment. Police are believed to be targeting Abdelhamid Abaaoud now.

This is -- his name is fast becoming a sort of household name, because this is the man that now authorities were saying he was behind, he masterminded these terrible Friday attacks.

But, John, it is believed, if, indeed, he was anywhere in the apartment or anywhere near the apartment, this man, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who many believe, most people believe, was in Syria this whole time.

BERMAN: Right.

GORANI: If, in fact, he was in France orchestrating attacks on football stadiums and concert halls, just a few kilometers, a few miles away from where a massacre took place when really we were all led to believe he was in the Middle East, it would be extremely significant and a big intelligence failure.

BERMAN: It is.

GORANI: But that remains to be confirmed.

BERMAN: We do not know if he was among the dead. We do know if he is in custody. We do not know if he was there.

What we do know is that one of the reasons they launched this raid, he might be there, and now, as you say, in and of itself is extraordinary. GORANI: Our CNN senior international correspondent Atika Shubert is

part of our team in Saint-Denis where police forces launched their raid.

What is the latest there, Atika?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHUBERT: A number of police with masks on, with balaclavas, and arm bands that say police, these are the investigative police. They were looking around in the crowd here, among the journalists, moving down the street. They seem to be looking for something in particular.

A number of male officers and a female officer moving down there, again we couldn't see any of them. They have their masks on. But very unusual that they were moving in the crowd and moved down the street. You see one of them here still operating, showing a photo to -- oh, an explosion has just gone off.

This is still an ongoing operation. That was quite a large explosion in that direction. A second one now.

Just hold on. No gunfire, a third explosion. Fourth. That was much larger, police asking them to evac. There are a number of military soldiers that are now being moved into the front as well.

Again John and Isha, this is very much an ongoing police operation at this point. We know that a number of suspects have been cornered. We don't know the exact number of who they have.

That's another explosion that's just gone off and another. There seems to be a series of them. We don't know if these are controlled detonations or not. It's gone quiet for now, but very unusual scenes here.

We saw to recap a number of those explosions. We heard, we saw, a number of the police have now -- military have been deployed on the streets as well in addition to the heavily armed police out here. We saw investigative police with masks on, balaclavas, coming into the crowd of journalists, seeming to look for somebody and then moving down the street, showing a photo of some sort on their phones to the other police stations here, clearly looking for something.

So, again, a very fluid situation. It does appear those explosions have gone quiet for now. But we will keep on top of the situation for you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: All right. Yeah, that was from several hours ago. She was describing the scene early in the morning hours with gunshots and she was there, explosions that were taking place about two or three hours ago.

GORANI: That was height of the drama overnight. It was an active raid situation. You had SWAT officers, police officers, military troops deployed in a suburb of Paris. Unbelievable sites there.

Even though the situation is ongoing, three confirm dead. Five under arrest, several police officers injured by the way, it has to be said.

BERMAN: Five injuries, that's what we are told.

GORANI: It's what we are told, possibly more. I'm seeing other reports, slightly injured, which is a news there. It appears as though the active raid part of the operation is winding down. Abdelhamid Abaaoud is the presumed target of this operation, though that is not confirmed.

BERMAN: Not confirmed.

Three at this point. They are saying three suspected terrorists dead. Three who were taken into custody from inside the building that was raided. A couple of other people taken into custody from the streets. So, as many as eight people. If we're doing the math here, as many as eight suspected terrorists rounded up or killed in Saint-Denis.