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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Police: Terror Raid "Still in Progress". Aired 4:30-5a ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: So, as many as eight people. If we're doing the math here, as many as eight suspected terrorists rounded up or killed in Saint-Denis, this neighborhood in the shadow of Stade de France, which was the soccer stadium attacked on Friday. It's a remarkable development here.

Also remarkable that the target of these raids, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the man believed to be the mastermind behind the Paris attacks and other attacks previously this year, not known if he was there. We don't know if he was killed, arrested or if he was even there. But we do know he was the target.

HALA GORANI, CNN ANCHOR: Let's rerun back to Friday. Seven attackers that we know of, one possibly on the loose, related to one of the bombers. I am talking about a man named Salah Abdeslam. His family lives in an impoverished suburb of Brussels, in area with history of links to some of these extremist networks.

The mayor of Molenbeek has told CNN that a bar registered to Salah's brother, Ibrahim, was shut down for drug-related offenses eight days before the Paris attacks. Ibrahim detonated his suicide vests the day of the attacks. We are talking three brothers here, just in case people started getting confused.

BERMAN: And police actually had into questioning, Mohamed Abdeslam, a third brother.

Erin Burnett talked to him. He has since been released. He actually fears his brother could kill still. He is called on his brother to surrender.

GORANI: All right. Later today, Belgians are going to hold the demonstrations in Molenbeek in solidarity with the Paris victims.

Our senior international correspondent Ivan Watson is live in Brussels with the very latest.

Before we get to that, is there talk, chatter going on where you are there about the potential, the possibility that the mastermind of these attacks, a Belgian-born man may have been targeted in these raids in Saint-Denis?

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I spoke with the Belgian federal prosecutor here and asked him, and he said they're very much waiting to see the results of this raid in Saint-Denis, to see who in fact was in that house, because that could have an impact on the ongoing investigation here.

Abaaoud is the most notorious of hundreds of Belgians who have gone to Syria to join the ranks of ISIS. He is known here for having recruited his 13-year-old brother to join in the ranks. He has been linked as we heard from Paul Cruickshank, the security analyst, to a number of different violent actions planned both here in Belgium and in neighboring countries.

As far as the brothers go, I'm standing about 100 feet, Hala and John, from the house of the Abdeslam family where the released brother, Mohamed Abdeslam, did speak to journalists after his release and spoke to our own Erin Burnett, and made a public appeal for his fugitive brother Salah to please turn himself in, and also mentioned, of course, worryingly, he is worried his brother could commit more violence acts in the future.

And that is a fear that has been echoed by Belgian authorities as well. They say as long as Salah Abdeslam is at large, they fear for the worst. And they're taking the potential threat very, very seriously. For example, earlier this week, a friendly football match between Belgium and Spain being cancelled, and then across the border in Germany -- I mean, the security fears, in the entire stadium has beat out, though no explosives were found there.

But that just gives you a sense not just in France but in neighboring countries how seriously the authorities are taking the threat levels right now -- John and Hala.

BERMAN: You know, it's interesting, Ivan, as we see these raids taking place here just north of Paris here, in Saint-Denis, these raids where three people have been killed, as many as five people are arrested, you know, a reminder that over the last several days, there have been raids in Belgium where you are, in Molenbeek, in and around Brussels.

Any ongoing operations now in the search for Salah Abdeslam?

WATSON: That's right. I mean, and here's another important detail and it is important to point out that the Belgians, they have arrested since the attacks, two suspects and charged them with terrorist activities. We haven't gotten further details about those two individuals. We are still waiting to find out.

But there are more reasons. I mean, the Belgian authorities say that at least three of the suspects in the Paris attacks have been on the radar of Belgian authorities previously. The two brothers and then a third resident here in Brussels, a man by the name of Bilal Hafdi, who was also one of the suicide bombers in Paris on Friday night, and he was on the radar of the Belgian authorities because he is a resident of Brussels who is believed to have gone to Syria to go fight.

[04:35:02] What the Belgian authorities did not know was that he had somehow gotten back into Europe and was living underground. They did not know he was back in Europe until his remains were found in Paris after those deadly attacks on Friday.

So, some of these individuals again known to Belgian authorities, as well as the fugitive brother, Salah Abdeslam, he was known to the Belgian authorities. He had been questioned earlier this year along with his brother Ibrahim the other suicide bomber. They had been questioned, they had been suspected of wanting to go join jihad, join ISIS in Syria. They were questioned earlier this year and then released.

The fact that the brother who is a fugitive right now was stopped by French authorities after the Paris attacks, questioned and then released, that he did not set off any red flags for being a suspected jihadi among the French authorities, that is one of the concerns right now, that some intelligence sharing was not being shared properly between the Belgians and the French.

One final detail that's important, when he was traveling in a vehicle headed towards Belgium and questioned by the French, that vehicle was later found here in this very neighborhood, though he, himself, is still missing -- John and Hala.

BERMAN: All right. Our Ivan Watson in Brussels.

So many threads this morning from Brussels, where Ivan is. The hunt goes on there for possible people connected to these attacks. The Saint-Denis, this neighborhood just north of Paris, where there had been raids taking place overnight, a huge significance.

GORANI: Yes, this is really a story that's unfolded and expanded over two countries. Where was it planned? So much connection right now through the suspects to Belgium as well and right back to Saint-Denis, north of where we are now.

Our senior international correspondent Atika Shubert joins us with this latest on this dramatic overnight raid. Tell us more, Atika.

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. It started at 4:30 in the morning. Residents woke up to automatic gunfire and an explosion. It was a round first and a lull and a second round of gunfire, sustained gunfire.

In fact, we spoke to one resident when all of a sudden, he had to evacuate and police were telling him to come out. He rushed in to get his 3-year-old daughter and came out safely. But this was the kind of tense and surreal and dramatic situation there morning. We then heard those explosions, one after another six or seven explosions in all, possibly controlled detonations.

It now appears the operation is winding down. There are still police behind me. You can see them with riot gear. They are armed. They are a lot more relaxed than they were before.

There were also soldiers earlier and also firemen now in the area. One of the reasons we believe we might be seeing those firemen and those specialty police is police are very concerned about any explosives left behind by these suspects. Keep in mind that of the -- what now appears to be able to eight suspects, three of them were killed. One of them was a woman who detonated a suicide vest.

So, police are being careful about whatever other explosives, booby traps or anything else that might have been left behind if they were anticipating a raid like this, Hala.

BERMAN: All right, Atika Shubert for us in Saint-Denis right now, where the operation still officially ongoing but winding down some.

As Atika rightly points out, there is concern right now that this apartment that was raided, it could have booby traps or explosives there. We do know that one of the dead suspected terrorists, a woman, blew herself up early on in this operation. We don't know what type of explosive she used. But there is still obviously concern that something else could still happen.

Three suspected terrorists dead, five under arrest right now in custody, including three taken into custody from inside the department. The target of this operation, one of the reasons they went in. They thought that Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the Belgian mastermind, believed to be behind these attacks, they thought he might be inside that apartment.

That is a key piece of information. We are still waiting for this morning. Was he there? At this point, we don't know.

GORANI: Let's bring in Regis Le Sommier. He's the deputy editor of "Paris Match" magazine.

You have been in touch with authorities here in Paris. It is something quite remarkable.

REGIS LE SOMMIER, DEPUTY EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, PARIS MATCH: Quite likable, I spoke to one of my contacts, the head of police. He told me they got there right on time this morning. They were just about to move.

The team that was there, they got very lucky to be there right on time. He didn't want to elaborate what kind of operation, what they were about to carry, but we can assume there were secondary targets maybe in the neighborhood there were rumors in the past month or so that they were going to target shopping malls, and that could be what they intended to do.

[04:40:01] But the team was ready and the fact that the woman was wearing a suicide vest can explain, you know, and died very early in the operation.

GORANI: Just to recap for our viewers, this would be extremely significant, if, in fact, security forces and police arrived right in time to stop another attack not related to the Friday attack, perhaps another brand-new operation?

LE SOMMIER: Well, I cannot confirm. But my feeling is that, yes, when he said we got there right on time, it was not they moved, they cleared the area, they got there you know rushing.

BERMAN: Because we've been talking to our terrorism analyst Paul Cruickshank. There is obviously concern. The fact that there were as many as eight involved here, three suspected terrorists dead, five now in custody, that were as many involved in the attack on Friday. That's a large group.

That's enough to carry out very deadly attacks here or around here, so the possibility that they got them as your source says just before they were about to move maybe to carry something else out very significant.

LE SOMMIER: But what is interesting, too, is the number of people involved in this because, you know, it was originally seven attackers. And yesterday moved to nine and now we are discovering more and more people. And there is probably, you know, maybe others, they are now looking for a second, you know, a second wave of attacks.

So that's what's making people very worried today. Is this over or is this not over?

GORANI: Could this be the beginning of some sort of multi-facetted operation organized by ISIS in France? We had Friday, we had today, possibly an attack thwarted. People have to be worried now -- is there more coming?

LE SOMMIER: Yes. And, you know, if there is more.

But there is also something that I would like to, you know, to tell is that Abdelhamid Abaaoud, which is supposed to be --

BERMAN: Hold on, one moment, please, stand by.

I want to go to Fred Pleitgen who is in Saint-Denis.

Fred, I understand there is activity going on right around where you are standing?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, actually we were forced to leave the position that we were in earlier today, and get this elevated position that we are seeing me now. There were a lot of police vehicles that actually just went down the street a couple minutes ago.

There is a lot of activity or some activity that sort of further down the street, way back they are moving around. It's unclear what was going on. There was a convoy of seven or eight police vehicles that came through here with their lights flashing very quickly. Not exactly sure what that means.

But it certainly seems to show there is still despite the fact that this appears to be a waiting game at this point in time. There is movement going on from this elevated position that we have here. We can also see the amount of law enforcement, medical personnel, fire department personnel that is on the scene there.

It really is amazing to see how many vehicles are there. How many people are there. We see a lot of firefighters also get ready, of course, in case there is some sort of raid in case something happens, a fire breaks out for some reason. They will be ready as well.

So, that just goes to show how big an operation it is, how important it is to them. Again, we saw some movement. A couple minutes ago that seemed very out of the ordinary. There was commotion here.

Unclear what that was, whether or not there was a change going on. There is more police officers also now gathering towards the end of the street and some emergency medical personnel moving out there as well. So, not clear at this point. We'll keep you updated on the anything major changes in that. But there was some movement just a couple minutes ago. We will wait to see what exactly that is.

Of course, as we have been hearing from Atika, this rage here, this siege is still very much ongoing and looking around, you can see the commotion it is causing here in this town, John.

BERMAN: Fred, we can see behind you, there is still a great deal of activity. We are told by French federal officials. This is still an ongoing operation. And we do know one of the suspected terrorists who is dead, a woman, she blew herself up at the beginning.

So, there is concern there could be explosives inside, still that, original apartment complex, which they reiterated earlier this morning.

GORANI: Regis Le Sommier, we have been talking a little while Fred has been reporting live in Saint-Denis. Your sources saying about this female suicide bomber, he said something interesting.

LE SOMMIER: He said that she was -- she's not -- I asked if she's -- we all thought she was going to be Hayat Boumeddiene, Hayat, a former girlfriend of Coulibaly --

BERMAN: Back in January, in the kosher supermarket.

LE SOMMIER: She managed to make it to Syria, back to Syria, she managed to flee. We thought that there was you know the potential that this woman would come back. There is another woman high on the list whose name is Emily (INAUDIBLE). She's more related to a Khorasan group, which is al Qaeda.

But Hayat Boumeddiene is ISIS, you know, she is very dangerous she is very high on the list. I would confirm she was not the suicide bomber of this morning.

There is also this element at the beginning of when the attacks started, there were some tweets who said from ISIS account that said support our sister.

[04:45:08] So, there was the rumor of a female might be involved. You know, several people talked about it. We never heard of it anymore. A female suicide bomber. That question being raised, as to the identity and who is exactly this woman.

GORANI: And, Regis, the question also, this supposed mastermind, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, what is your source saying about whether or not that individual was present there?

LE SOMMIER: He didn't want to make comments. But my feeling, my gut feeling, is Abaaoud, having seen him on video cameras that he took from Syria. He was you know the video lasted from, dated from 2014. Back then, he was just a henchman in ISIS. He moved up the hierarchy.

But Abaaoud, I don't think Abaaoud is probably a leader of the team. He has, his combat seasoned. You know, he's made his way up in ISIS.

I don't, you know, that's my gut feeling again. I'm not the expert on that. But I don't believe he's the mastermind of this operation. There has to be somebody on much more organized of with other competence these guys.

BERMAN: Again, the operation has been going on about five hours right now, three suspected terrorist did, three who were taken into custody from inside the building, two from outside.

Regis, your sources tell you the police believe they got there just in time, perhaps because these folks were getting ready to stage some other attack in Paris.

We're joined also by CNN terror analyst Paul Cruickshank.

Paul, if you can step in here, hearing what we have been discussing, what are your sources telling you?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, you know, these are disturbing new pieces of information coming in, this possibility that there was some kind of imminent second wave attack, maybe about to be launched.

It really is staggering, the scale of this now, the scale of this ambition this network appears to have had. You got to presume that there is a connection between these two groups of heavily armed individuals, one who carried the attack out on Friday and the other that they've just done the raid on, because we understand that the information on the first investigation led to the second raids that we have just seen take place.

I think there is real concern. There are still others out there. I mean, you know, I have been stunned at every turn in this and it certainly would not surprise me if there are yet more gunmen out there.

I think they will be beyond maximum alert in Paris, public spaces. They may still want to carry out some kind of spectacular -- all the world's media are gathered here in Paris. I think it's possible the plan is wait until they all gather and then launch a massive second raid.

I mean, eight people, eight more terrorists, they could launch absolute carnage and that would be a one-two punch would be absolutely traumatic to this country. And, you know, much more than just the one attack and you know rattled nerves.

ISIS basically have declared all-out war it would appear on France. I fear also all out war on other European countries as well.

All the intelligence indications are they they've got sort of different language groups. They've got English and French speakers and German speakers and Dutch speakers. And they're all kind of organizing their personality groups to launch an attack back in their home countries.

GORANI: And, Paul, it would make sense Belgians and French speak French. The Dutch speak Dutch together. If they're going to form alliances in Syria, on the battle field, come back. It makes sense that the Belgians and the French would be working together.

LE SOMMIER: The groups, you know, by nationality, fighting together in Syria. I mean, they've had it from almost the beginning of the outpour of volunteers from France. We knew there was this French brigade that was in ISIS, operating in ISIS and all connected, you know, of course, because they know each other from petty crime, you know, from prison or for having served together or having been at school together, because they all come from the same suburbs.

We have this instance the family jihad with those three brothers. You know all from Molenbeek in Belgium, and apparently, you were telling me that Abaaoud and Abdeslam went together at school.

(CROSSTALK)

BERMAN: You know, it's interesting. You see the connection here in Paris and in prison.

[04:50:01] You also see the connection in Syria, where six of the eight of Friday's attackers had spent time. So, all sorts of connections.

LE SOMMIER: These are really the returnees that we're seeing right now. We are being hit by we fear the most, is these people have been trained in Syria and coming back to strike at home.

BERMAN: It is an interesting development, obviously, Friday, all the weapons used, the explosives then, today, to see the raid on this apartment, to see the shootout, to see this woman blow herself up. Obviously, a great deal, a great number of weapons still at their disposal.

Paul, I mean, how do they stage this kind of operation? How do you get the logistics, how you get the arsenal to carry out not just the series of attacks on Friday but perhaps more attacks that were planned for today?

CRUICKSHANK: Well, all these people, as we pointed out, were involved in criminality in the past, petty crime, armed burglary -- people who have easy ways of getting access to weapons. Some of them spending some time in jail it appears. And so, it's really not difficult for them to get Kalashnikovs because of their contacts. We saw that on Amedy Coulibaly who launched that attack on the kosher markets in Paris in January. And then with the bombing ingredient, the TATP, very likely, that's

something they would have learned to do in Syria. It's actually quite tricky to make. You can get the materials easy enough. It's so volatile. So unstable you have to know what you are doing otherwise you will blow yourself up.

So, the concern is some of them got trained in Syria. They've come back and they can build these suicide vests. Even larger bombs as well, right?

LE SOMMIER: One element we add to that is the common experience they got from -- I was in Syria a week ago with the regime forces in places like Jobar (ph) and northern Homs, and some of the places we went to had been conquered by the regime force. We could see you know the level of fortification that the rebels had built.

These people are used, have been used for years to go to, you know, from one end of the building to the next by digging holes in the walls. So, that wouldn't surprised me if you have somebody like this entrenched in building in Saint-Denis, that could last a little longer than somebody who doesn't have that kind of experience, you know?

GORANI: Can I ask you -- in Syria, what areas did you go with regime forces liberated from what group?

LE SOMMIER: It was re-liberated from Jabhat al-Nusra, and it was the town of (INAUDIBLE), which is north of Homs, between Homs and Hama. And I also went to Jobar, which is hold by al-Sham and Nusra, who's been, you know, the, we had a, we -- we witnessed an offensive by the regime going over there.

But, you know, the type of people that are fighting in this circumstances are really seasoned and fight -- you know, these people have been fighting there for a long time. So if those jihadists had this experience, obviously, you know they can maneuver very easily in a town -- in a peaceful town like ours.

BERMAN: Taking the war from Syria now perhaps to Paris.

The raid this morning -- just to remind people what's going on -- an ongoing operation in Saint-Denis, which is a neighborhood north of the city here. Three suspected terrorists killed. Five people arrested in custody right now including three taken in custody inside that apartment.

We understand that five police officers at least have been injured, hopefully, only lightly injured right now. A woman, a suspected terrorist, one of the terrorists, killed herself with an explosive early on in this operation.

Paul Cruickshank, one of the reasons why they launched this operation is they thought Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the ring leader perhaps, the mastermind behind these attacks on Friday, there was a suspicion he could have been inside that apartment.

CRUICKSHANK: That's absolutely right. I was told this by a senior Belgian counter-terrorism official that information, key information coming into the French and the Belgium investigators suggested that the priority targets were at this address, including possibly Abdelhamid Abaaoud.

There is a hypothesis when they went in. They didn't know for sure within they went in. And so, that's the extent of the information that we have at this point.

But it will be extraordinary if he managed to get back to Europe, given that just a month ago, the French were trying to target him in a training camp in Syria.

GORANI: All right. Paul Cruickshank, Regis Le Sommier, thanks so much for sharing this top level source.

We want to get for this hour the latest from Atika Shubert. She's in Saint-Denis, where all these raids took place.

Atika, what's going on where you are?

SHUBERT: Well, it does seem to be winding down. Police are much more relaxed. We've seen a number of units leaving.

[04:55:00] We do still however see soldier, military officers with weapons there. We also a fire team inside as well, and that may be because of concerns that some of the suspects may have left explosives behind.

We do know that all of the suspects that were either killed or arrested, one of them was a woman. She blew herself up with a suicide vest. It's probably why the operation isn't quite over yet. They want to make sure, absolutely sure that they've got everybody they need and they've cleared the area of anything that might be dangerous to the public, Hala.

BERMAN: Atika, you have been there some time, for several hours. Describe what you saw overnight. First, there was a shooting on the predawn when it was still dark, and then you heard a series of explosions a few hours later.

SHUBERT: That's right. It started at 4:30 in the morning. That's when residents say they were woken up by the sound of automatic gunfire and an explosion. There was a bit of a lull and a second round of sustained gunfire. In fact, we spoke to run resident who had to rush out.

The police literally pulled him out, his phone smashing down. You see police still operating in the area.

Another man who said he was on his way to work. Police told him to evacuate. He quickly rushed in to grab his 3-year-old daughter to rush out.

That's the kind of how intense it was. Now, when we arrived, it was immediately after the gunfire, while we were here, we were seeing a number of units in operation, including masked teams of investigative police that were here among the crowd, apparently looking for someone. Just as they were doing that, we heard that series of explosions go off. What sounded like controlled detonations, although we have fought confirmed that with police, about six or seven explosions.

It was a very fluid moment. The military was deployed for putting up a perimeter in the area. Since then, it's quieted down significantly. It does seem that the operation is winding down. It's been an intense night for residents here. It's very surreal to see this on their streets.

BERMAN: Atika Shubert for us in Saint-Denis, where Atika has been for the last five or six hours, there has extraordinary law enforcement operation. Police, SWAT teams, also a military presence on the ground there targeting Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the man who could have been the mastermind behind these attacks on Friday.

GORANI: Just to be clear, we don't even know if he was there.

BERMAN: Right.

GORANI: All we know is he was the target. There is some reports he has been arrested. Other reports he was killed. And then other reports altogether he wasn't physically present in that apartment.

What we do now, according to prosecutor is that one female suicide bomber killed herself at the beginning of the raid at 4:30 in the morning. We know who other individuals as well were killed, one by sniper fire we understand. Another unclear five arrests, three inside the apartment, two outside the apartment.

Was this -- and we were speaking with Regis Le Sommier, who's a journalist here in France, whose top source told him in morning that this could have been an entirely new team of terrorists planning another attack.

BERMAN: And Regis, what he told us is he talked to police who said to him they got there just in time, just in time was the exact language he was given, which is notable for two reasons. Was it j you in time to prevent another attack? Was it just in time to keep these people from fleeing.

The numbers indicate, though, something important in and of themselves. Eight people, three people killed. Three suspected terrorists now dead, five under arrest. There were eight people involved, seven or eight people involved on Friday in the deadly attacks here that killed 129 people.

So, certainly eight more suspected terrorists right now, more than enough to carry out another round of deadly attacks, had not been what they were planning to do this morning.

GORANI: And we will have a lot more on our continuing coverage on the Paris attack and these dramatic raids happening overnight in the city. I'm Hala Gorani.

BERMAN: I'm John Berman. Our next hour of breaking news coverage begins right now.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: All right. I'm John Berman in Paris alongside Hala Gorani. We are at the Place de La Republique, which has been something of a shrine over the last few days.

But today, this morning, the last five hours, extraordinary developments -- an ongoing operation in the neighborhood of Saint- Denis, that is in the northern part of this city. Three suspected terrorists killed. Five now arrested. We have been told that the target of this operation, intelligence sources tell us the reason that they launched it is they believe Abdelhamid Abaaoud, the man believed to be the mastermind behind the Paris attacks on Friday that killed 129 people. They think he might have been inside that apartment building.

GORANI: Let's bring you a brief timeline here so you can put it into context. The raid on the apartment in Saint-Denis, which, by the way, just a few miles north of where we are.