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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Massive Terror Raid Underway In Paris Suburb; Prosecutor: Seven Arrested In Connection With Raid; Paris Attack Mastermind Targeted In Raid. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired November 18, 2015 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR: -- one of the outside communities of Paris, known for poverty, known for crime, and now potentially for terror. I am joined with John Berman, Hala Gorani, and Christiane Amanpour. This has been going on for hours now. It's still an act of operation. John, tell us how we got to where we are.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: We got here overnight. There was a large amount of gunfire here in this neighborhood in Saint Denis. Residents there are alerting people to something going on, what that was this large law enforcement operation.

We are told targeting they believed that there was Abdelhamid Abaaoud. He is believed to have been the mastermind behind Friday's Paris attacks here. They killed 129 people. They thought he might be there.

CUOMO: So that was the tip that they were looking for him. What did they find when they got there?

HALA GORANI, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: We are hearing from the French prosecutor that one suicide bomber, female, killed herself inside the apartment where the raid took place. Two other suspected terrorists were killed, one possibly by sniper fire, and the other one unclear.

Crucially, three suspected terrorists are in custody. This will be extremely important for investigators because it's not just forensic evidence that they are going to be able to collect. It's also human intelligence.

You can be sure they will be questioning them until they are able achieve as much information gathering as possible from them.

CUOMO: Christiane, you have been following these events pretty much from their inception this morning. They are saying it is no coincidence in number and in capabilities, this group that they are actively taking down right now in Saint Denis not far from where we are, very close to the stadium, resembles the attacks Friday night. How so and what is the relevance?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They're saying that this is potentially a part of a number of cells that were planned for rolling operations, the first a series of horrible attacks in Paris on Friday and potentially more. So to that end, their sources are telling CNN and police

sources that these, this raid today was made just in time. And in the space of about 48 hours, we have gone from seven terrorists or eight terrorists to very close to 15, 16. The number is climbing in terms of suspected terrorists.

And my French sources in the government in the Senate here, they are trying to nail down whether this matches a report and a warning they got from Iraqi intelligence on Thursday, the day before the Friday the 13th attack, which said that 19 people who they had had under surveillance in some form or fashion for a period of time went dark.

And that there was possibly a threat to France, we are still trying to nail that down, but these numbers now match more closely to this warning from Iraq.

CUOMO: All right, so that's how we got to where we are right now. We are still in the middle of an active situation. Let's get to Atika Shubert. We also have Fred Pleitgen, very close to the scene of the actual operation. Atika, what are you seeing there now?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. In fact, I'm just now seeing police in riot gear moving across behind reporters. I'm not sure why they're moving down the street that way. It's very active. I will pan the camera around so you can get a sense of the scene here.

It goes to show you how fluid and tense the situation is here now at the moment. So the police have gone down that road there. Now, previously, the action was happening there.

That is where the suspects were holed up. We're not sure why police have moved down there. But that's where they have gone and a number of media chasing after them as well.

I want to bring you back around if we can to show you a little bit about where those arrests were happening last night. So we'll spin the camera around this way. This essentially is where it was happening 200 meters down that way at the interception of two roads there.

It started at 4:30 in the morning, sustained rounds of automatic gunfire as well as an explosion. Now what we understand from residents is that that went on for quite some time until about 5 a.m.

One man said that he was just about to leave for work when police pulled him out and said evacuate immediately. He ran upstairs to get his 3-year-old daughter and got out.

Now we arrived soon afterwards. There was a series of explosions, what sounded like controlled detonations. After that what we learned from police, it seems to calm down was that a number of suspects had been arrested, three inside the apartment.

That several suspects had also been killed including one woman who blew herself up with a suicide bombing vest. Now, we are still getting details. This is still an ongoing operation.

The building behind us has been evacuated. Forensics police are in there and there were two additional arrests just confirmed in the last half hour. This is still very fluid and operational -- Chris.

CUOMO: Right, obviously, it goes without saying. Stay where you can see, but keep safety as your priority. We'll keep checking in with you.

[05:35:01] Let's go to Fred Pleitgen for a different set of eyes on this situation. We are hearing two things, Fred, that maybe you can coordinate through your observations.

One is that there is an increasing amount of assets on the ground there, more police, more capabilities, forensic and otherwise. And that there is also a coordinated effort going on the intel side. They are learning more about this particular area.

That it is somewhat of a network, not in a terror sense, but of the building very being closely connected allowing ease of travel within. What are you seeing?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You are absolutely right as far as the amount of activity. I'm at an elevated vantage point. You can see down that street where most of that activity is going on.

It is true, we did see this. There was a forensic police that seemed to be going inside the buildings where all of this was taking place. We have seen dramatic, not necessarily dramatic, a big increase in the amount of police officers on the ground here.

Also about a half hour ago, there was one policed officers who was actually taken away from the scene by some medical personnel there. He seemed to be limping. It is unclear whether or not he was wounded or something else happened to him.

The other thing we are still seeing, Chris, and this is quite interesting, is that civilians apparently are being still being evacuated. Out of the area here, we saw some of those police teams escort people away.

What you are seeing right now, the camera is on, police forces amassing in front of what appears to be that apartment building. One thing we see is some appear to have shields and it seems to us as though maybe they might be staging for some sort of operation.

However, they have been stationary there for about 15 minutes. Again an increase of police officers is, indeed, happening. Of course, the interesting thing this is in close proximity to that stadium where three suicide bombers blew themselves up.

It's in proximity to where one of the cars was found by the man sought with an international global arrest warrant. Salah Abdeslam, so it seems as though there must have been some sort of activity in Saint-Denis.

It appears as though that might have been going on. There was a coordination going on. Interestingly enough, Chris, if, indeed, it turns out that the apartments here the people here in some way connected to this attack.

This would be the third apartment or hotel room that would have been arrested. That would have been rented by the larger group all attackers and supporters in the area -- Chris.

CUOMO: You are putting your finger on a big point of concern for investigators, that exactly how extensive is this network of operators? They say at this point they have no reason to believe there couldn't be an additional team, one reason for it to be so active.

CNN has another set of eyes on the ground now, senior international correspondent, Clarissa Ward. One of the big headlines coming out in this still active situation is just in the nick of time that police believe that this group was ready to do something, take us through it.

CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Right. OK, Chris, sorry, we have a slightly chaotic situation on the ground here. As can you see, there is a lot of moving cars, a lot of very uptight policemen understandably, clearly a major operation going on.

There seems to be some banging on the door of this church. I don't know if you can hear that. Police are trying to push journalists back. There are a lot of journalists here, understandably.

The focus of this raid appears to be 27-year-old Abdelhamid Abaaoud. Now, he is Belgian, of Moroccan descent. You can hear them banging on that door. It's not clear who they think might be inside that church. They're trying to push journalists back.

But here's what we know about Abdelhamid Abaaoud. He is believed to be the mastermind of this attack. He has been involved in other terror plots before, most recently in January. There was a terror plot that was thwarted after Abdelhamid Abaaoud was able to escape in that instance.

It was thought that he fled back to Syria or Iraq. You can feel the crowds are really pushing here, Chris, I apologize for that. But it's a chaotic situation, understandably people on edge, police on edge. You see them. They are in full riot gear. They have helmets, vests on.

That is because this is considered to be a dangerous man. He is believed to be the mastermind of these attacks. He has a criminal record. He has been involved with gangs before. The police now seem to be focusing on this church -- Chris.

CUOMO: Right. Clarissa, obviously, the perfect thing to do here is be somewhere you can see what's going on, but not too close you get in the way of what's going on, obviously. We have heard the speculation before of what the initial intention was in terms of going to this area for police.

[05:40:06]On what the speculation is about where this alleged planner might be. But they've already, although the numbers are soft, there have been terrorists killed. There have been terrorists arrested, which is probably more important for the investigation.

There also have been officers hit and we see right now that the activity, almost an amazing show of media in such close proximity to police in riot gear who seemed to be getting ready to enter a church.

Why they want to get in there. We are not quite sure. There is cause for speculation, but no reason to do anything but watch right now. So Clarissa, as you are watching what's going on behind you, the officers seem to be taking positions, equipped for entry. What else?

WARD: That's right, Chris, so we've just seen a bunch of police officers are climbing over the fence to get closer to a large church here. We've heard they have been banging on the door. You can see, it's a fairly chaotic scene. There are dozens and dozens of journalists.

You could see police now are trying to push us back. It's not clear what the source of this latest move towards this church is. Did they hear something inside? Do they have reason to believe that someone related to this latest raid may be inside the church?

Nobody seems to know that yet. It is also not clear to me how it is that the police are not able to get into this church. But, certainly, what we can say is that the main suspect the main, the source of this raid, the target of this raid, is known to be an incredibly dangerous man.

He is 27-year-old Abdelhamid Abaaoud. He is a Belgian of Moroccan dissent. He was involved with a large terror plot inside Belgium, but was thwarted pack in Germany. But as you know, Chris, that plot was thwarted.

But he managed to escape and it had been believed that he made it back to Syria or Iraq. We know that the Department of Homeland Security, Chris, as recently as May or rather as far back as May was complaining that they viewed him to be a potential threat.

That they were concerned that ISIS was possibly developing the capabilities to launch a kind of complex or sophisticated attack here in the west.

We also know that French and coalition forces, who are fighting against Syria, fighting against ISIS and Syria and Iraq had tried to targeted Abaaoud before. That, obviously, was unsuccessful.

Now it appears, Chris, he may be, indeed, right here in Paris all along, not, in fact, in Syria or Iraq at all. I'm not sure if you can see. The police are outside the door of that church. One man sort of keeping a lookout there as they bang loudly on

that door, you can hear that now. They're banging on the door, they're looking all around. They're heavily armed, wearing riot gear. It appears they're trying to almost bust that door opened.

And as I've said before, we don't know who exactly is inside that church. Why has this church suddenly become the focal point of this raid? The raids were ongoing since about 4:30 in the morning here. Sorry, Chris, back to you.

CUOMO: All right, Clarissa, we will keep watching this, safety is paramount for the officers and you and the other media as well. If they wanted to bust that door down, they would or will in short order if that's their intention, you stay safe.

Let's remind why we are where we are. This is a very active operation going on outside Paris, a community known as Saint-Denis, there have been at least two terrorists killed. Others arrested.

Police have been hurt in what they are calling a discovery of another team here that was as they believe ready to act. Jim Scuitto joins us now, our senior national security correspondent. There is a reason to believe what intelligence took them to this point. What do we know?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: The big lied are the cell phones at the scenes of the attack including with that message, our Evan Perez reporting yesterday, ready to go. In effect, the cell phones of the attackers in the Friday attacks used before the attacks took place.

We know apps for encrypted communications which has been a concern of U.S. and European intelligence, officials for some time. So did they gain some intelligence from those phones that led them to other players in this game, other players that those attackers were communicating with? That's potentially a very important lead.

BERMAN: One point here, Paris authorities are now telling us, prosecutors are telling us two suspected terrorists are dead. We have been reporting three all morning. They changed that number. Two suspected terrorists dead.

[05:45:07]Seven now in custody, including three who were taken into custody from inside the apartment and apparently four others from the outside. So those are the numbers right now.

CUOMO: Look, it's still ongoing. All of those numbers will most likely change. Officers have been injured. Again, that's not quantifiable, but we don't need it to be now. We just have to know what the conditions are.

Now the scene is a confusing one. These officers are obviously highly equipped and are capable, but they are just standing outside the door of this church. Obviously if they wanted to force entry, they could. They are not. That has to tell you that there is not 100 percent sureness about what to do next, right?

SCIUTTO: The level of alerts earlier during the first operation overnight, different from what we are seeing here now, but you don't know. They could have gotten a tip that an eyewitness or someone leaving the scene, right?

But we also know that eyewitness testimony early on often is not correct. The state of police alert in this country is such now, they don't leave anything to chance.

CUOMO: Now, Christiane, we are also being told that there are different action teams being deployed here because the apartment structure here in this community is a little (inaudible), that they are going from one to the next in trying to see exactly how many people are involved and what they see as another team.

AMANPOUR: You can see from that church. They're in the sort of historic old town of Saint-Denis. That's the focus of today's raid including the apartment area that they were looking for.

If you go around Paris, any French town or city have these beautiful roads or these side streets. They're not in nice neat grids like in New York City. They're very, you know, complicated, urban design.

And so this is what they're seeing. Of course, this morning, all of this started around 4:30 a.m. local time and there were lots and lots of heavily armed there and they're getting into it there. Lots and lots of heavily armed police with helicopters --

CUOMO: We just got word from our producers, the French police saying the raid is officially over. That fights what's on the screen in front of you right now. They seem to be putting some type of chalk in the door to at least wedge it opened.

Again, the immanency of this is in doubt because you have a big group of officers in very tight proximity to one another right in front of a door. So it doesn't speak to an immediate threat, but obviously, ongoing efforts to gain entry.

SCIUTTO: You don't mention the obvious thing here. The power of the possibility at least there is a suspected terrorist inside a Christian church here in Paris.

BERMAN: Seeking refuge.

SCIUTTO: Or seeking to blow something up or carry out another attack.

BERMAN: The beginning of this attack, one of the reasons why they launched this attack in Saint Denis, they thought that possibly the mastermind of the Paris attacks on Friday, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, that he could have been, maybe inside those apartments.

One of the big unknowns as we sit here this morning and watch this ongoing operation, was he there? Is he one of the two terrorists killed? Is he one of the seven terrorists under arrest or was that information off to begin with? Is he not there? AMANPOUR: Well, that will be the question, obviously, what we do know, this is what police said. He most definitely was the target of these raids. They must have thought he was there somewhere, maybe it will turn out he was, but he was the target of the raid. The confirmation has to be exactly as you just said, whether he was there or not.

SCIUTTO: He has been able to travel back and forth in recent months from Syria to Belgium, under the radar of police, which is pretty incredible thing considering they knew about him for months as well. If he could do that, it's possible he made it back here.

CUOMO: That's the point that needs to be made right now. What they know ability him and his whereabouts is very much fluid to say the least. We also hear that one of the reasons they're putting big groups of assets, meaning lots of manpower into these raids is they're not used to doing the kind of operations they're doing if terms of volume.

They are learning so much with this new found access into operational ability here that leads are developing. This idea of a network described to me almost like a spider web in communities in and around Paris is literally taking them from one source of concern to the next.

Now, obviously, we're at a flash point where this has been the culmination of a major operation, gunfire, explosions, injured officers, terrorists killed. Now the scene before you in the community of Saint-Denis, a group of officers trying to gain entry, that's what you see right now.

BERMAN: They tell us. Sources tell CNN they got there just in time. Think of those words, to prevent another attack about to be launched.

[05:50:00]The fact that one of the people killed, one of the terrorists killed, this woman was wearing we think an explosive suicide vest indicates to them that maybe she was getting ready to go out.

CUOMO: Open question whether she was wearing it or it detonated. What gives us that suggestion? That's what the police are saying, but also the best if it is like the ones that were worn on last Friday.

It is made of a highly volatile compound called TATP. We believe that's why it almost certainly had to be locally made. It does not transport well. It can go off so who knows what the circumstances were.

The finality is that it did detonate. It took that woman's life at a minimum. Let's go to Fred Pleitgen. He is also on the ground in Saint-Denis where this operation is still going on. By observation, what do you see now?

PLEITGEN: Hi, Chris. One of the things we are seeing, we started seeing a couple minutes ago as this truck moved past, you can see the police down the street have moved a Special Forces truck onto the area.

What we are also seeing is some of those police officers were in front of that building. They had their guns at the ready. They appear to be moving somewhat back from that building in the other direction.

So wondering whether or not that could indicate that indeed the raid is over as that one police official seems to have told us or whether or not they might be just moving for some other sort of tactical reasons. But there is certainly a lot of motion we are seeing at this point in time.

That truck that they moved in, which is a truck that belonged to those elites, police special forces, called the DRI, at the same time the personnel, themselves, apparently sort of standing down a little bit from their positions that they had before, where they were really at the ready and a little moving away from what appears to be that building where all of this was happening -- Chris.

CUOMO: All right. Fred, if you are just joining us right now, what you are seeing is a group of French military and police at the entryway of a church tearing a hole in the door on speculation that there may be a terrorist hiding inside this Christian church. This is the culmination of an operation that's been going on for hours throughout the night.

John Berman, you have been watching it all unfold. How did we get to where we are right now?

BERMAN: This seven-hour operation in Saint-Denis, a neighborhood to the north of Paris. We are watching this extraordinary scene, breaking down that church door. They believe two suspected terrorists killed, as many as seven now arrested.

The reason they launched this raid. They had reason to believe that the mastermind behind the Paris attacks on Friday, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, they thought he might be in that apartment building.

That is why they launched that raid. We do not know if he was killed, arrested or if he was there. We do know that's why they launched it.

CUOMO: We do know they discovered what wound up being equivalent to the team the size or greater on Friday.

BERMAN: There is two dead, seven injured, nine people, seven arrested. Nine people total as many or more than took place in the Paris attacks on Friday. Police sources tell CNN they got there just in time.

Just in time they feel to prevent another round of attacks as soon as today in Paris. One woman was killed. She had a suicide vest that blew up. Did she kill herself?

CUOMO: Jim Sciutto, how did they get to be at this church door? SCIUTTO: A lot of attention focused on the cell phones that they found at the scene, several cell phones at the scene of Friday's attack, including one that had a message on it, something to the effect of get ready to go.

Also encryption apps on there, which has been a concern of U.S. and European intelligence for some time that they are using encrypted communications to stay under the radar, a very important lead in all this.

Just as we are watching this unfold at the church, just to state the obviously point, if there was a terrorist hiding behind that door, there would be a gunfight under way right now. There is something they need and they want to see.

But I think we can surmise from this that it doesn't look like the most urgent situation there at that church.

CUOMO: You basically have seven officers sitting around watching one bang a hole into a door. He just climbed in and he is inside the church. So we'll see what is reported to us about what they found in there, but again, this is not a gunfight.

There have been gun fights in the preceding hours that took us to here. There were sounds of explosions at least in part because of this vest that was detonated perhaps by this woman, who wounds up dying inside.

At least two terrorists it is reported have been killed. Officers have been hurt. This is part of an ongoing operation that as John Berman has been reporting. Authorities say was just in the nick of time to stop another wave of attacks here in and around Paris.

[05:55:07] Now, in our Paris bureau here, we have Paul Cruickshank. He is a security expert. Paul, you see what we are seeing, but help us understand the context of how we got to this point and what is ongoing?

PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, Chris, I mean, they are warring moments, all indications are there could be two attack teams here, the first attack team launching that awful terrorist attack on Paris on Friday, eight attackers, maybe nine involved in that.

And eight people either killed or arrested in this overnight raid in Saint-Denis with one woman who strapped on an explosive vest, who blew herself up. There are other heavy weapons, which appear to be involved.

Of course, we are now being told that the police felt they got there just in time. They were planning some kind of operation imminently. And so the scale of ambition from ISIS would appear to be on a grander scale tan we even sort of imagined.

And I think there will be concern that there are other teams out there still in Paris, trying to go -- I don't think we can assume this is over, there were just two teams.

Clearly, they will be following every lead with a team of forensics. They will be interrogating all the people they managed to get to try and furiously find out what else is planned here in Paris.

CUOMO: Well, Paul, absolutely, every bit of reporting, confirms what you are saying. Let me bring it back to the panel, sources with knowledge of this investigation say they have absolutely no reason to believe already not more teams, a double negative there.

But it takes you to a very important conclusion, Christiane, which is they don't know exactly what they are dealing with here. They went on a lead because of these cell phones.

They wind out finding an entirely second team with the same explosive equipment, the same fire power as the ones that did the attack on Friday.

AMANPOUR: Let's wait and see exactly who these people are. Look, over the last couple days, they have upped the number of terrorists they believe were involved in this whole thing and from the beginning they have said, even the president said, the ministry of interior about to brief about a half hour on the latest investigations, have said is that we think there are even more.

Remember, when we started, it was seven or eight terrorists. Now it's 15 and numbers are climbing. Even yesterday, they said 20 or. So but from the very beginning, they were very afraid that there would be more attacks, which was the basis preventive order to keep people off the streets and not congregating in public spaces.

So they're quite worried about that. They do think -- so far we have been told they think this is not some completely different operation, some completely different cell. It's all a part of the same big potential plot.

CUOMO: Similar weaponry, similar explosives.

AMANPOUR: It's all part of the same.

BERMAN: There have been hundreds of raids every night in France since the attacks on Friday. This morning we have been told quite clearly this one was different. This was launched to target Abdelhamid Abaaoud. Was he there? We don't know.

SCIUTTO: In addition to the possibility of other attackers, there would have to be a support network to allow an operation of this magnitude scale and expanse to take place here, which is another thing driving those raids.

Just another point to what you were saying earlier, Chris. One sort of sad irony of this is when have you an attack and you investigate that often reveals other leads. It leads you in other places.

So there is, I hate to use the word benefit, right, you've had an attack here, it is option. They have IDs now of some attackers, cell phones. This is leading them to other places they would not know about --

CUOMO: There is a state of emergency in effect right now, which is allowing police power that did not exist. We are hearing from multiple sources that they are usually not allowed to conduct raids in the way they are right now. That is giving them a flood of information which they believe is established a spider web of networks in and around Paris.

AMANPOUR: So actually they are learning more and more and more. They are actually being led by each one of these bits of the jigsaw to more and more concentrated knowledge of what's going on, hence, today.

CUOMO: All right. So we have, we're watching throughout the morning here what's going on in this active scene in Saint-Denis. We will take you through it.

All right, we are, obviously, in Paris with major coverage overnight. You are looking at a scene at a raid just outside Paris called Saint-Denis.

For hours, there have been explosions, gunfire, at least two terrorists killed. Several others arrested. Officers hurt. Speculation that this was an extension of a manhunt looking for the planner of --