Return to Transcripts main page

Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

California Shooting Rampage: Investigators Probe Shooters' Motives; Is the U.K. ISIS' Next Target? Aired 4:30-5a ET

Aired December 04, 2015 - 04:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: We're also learning new details about the married shooters. Authorities say Farook met Tashfeen Malik two years ago on a pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia.

[04:30:02] He was devout, attending services at a local Islamic center twice a day. A law enforcement official tells CNN it appears Farook became radicalized. He had been in touch with a person the FBI suspected of terrorism.

For the latest, let's go to CNN's John Vause. He is in San Bernardino.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: Well, John and Christine, while officials continue to search for that motive, a reason why, it's been a night of sadness here in San Bernardino. Hundreds turned out for memorial services. They gathered at a sporting stadium. There was a candlelight vigil. Services were also held at the largest mosque in the county.

And the coroner has officially named all of the victims. They range in age from 26 to 60. And most of the victims had some kind of personal connection to Syed Rizwan Farook, 12 of the 14 who were killed and 18 of the 21 who were wounded worked with him at the county office here as well.

And officials say this killing spree could have been so much worse because Farook and his wife had this massive cache of ammunition, thousands of rounds of ammunition. Still for the first responders, the first police officer who arrived on the scene, he described what was essentially carnage inside that conference center.

LT. MIKE MADDEN, SAN BERNARDINO POLICE DEPT.: It was unspeakable, the carnage that we were seeing. The number of people who were injured and unfortunately already dead, and the pure panic on the face of those individuals that were still in need and needing to be safe. We asked -- we got as many people out as quickly as we could.

VAUSE: Sources also say they believe Farook became radicalized. He had contact with a number of people under investigation by the FBI for links to international terrorism -- John, Christine.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BERMAN: All right. John, thanks so much.

Survivors of the massacre have told police that Rizwan Farook may have been set off by some kind of argument. He left angry. Came back later with his wife and guns.

So far, it is unclear what the fight he was in was about. The widow of one victim who died in the attack says her husband could have been involved. He tells CNN's Gary Tuchman her husband was an outspoken messianic Jew who was openly critical of Muslims.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You've been open about this and so is your husband about what he's said about Muslims in the past. What has he said?

JENNIFER THALASINOS, WIDOW OF VICTIM NICHOLAS THALASINOS: He's very upset about what is has been doing and the radicalized Muslims, al Qaeda, the whole situation. He's upset about the fact that the majority of the Muslims, you know, it's like they won't come out and do something about it.

TUCHMAN: Do you think he talked to Farook about that?

THALASINOS: He might have.

TUCHMAN: And do you have any knowledge at all from anyone you've talked to what happened at the function yesterday with Farook?

THALASINOS: No, I just know that supposedly there was an argument and very as easily could have been an argument with my husband. I wouldn't be surprised.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: County health employees who worked with Farook for years, they say the attack came as a surprise to them. They say he was well-liked, mild-mannered. Co-workers even threw him a baby shower.

Now they're shocked, they're angry, they're mourning.

Patrick Baccari shared a cubicle with him for years and says his life may have been saved by a well-timed trip to the bathroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATRICK BACCARI, SHARED CUBICLE WITH SHOOTER RIZWAN FAROOK: They were giving us a 15-minute break so I went to the rest room. While I was in the rest room, I finished. I was going to dry my hands, and that's when the attack started.

And I thought somebody booby trapped the towel dispenser because I was being pummeled as I was pulling the paper towels dispenser. So, I looked back and the minute I can see, I was bleeding in my temple, my nose. And then there's other little fragments that hit me all over the place. They're so tiny that unless they start to fester, they'll probably remain there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Overnight people took part in memorials. There was one at a stadium. Also at churches, schools and mosques.

We are learning more about the victims this morning. Many who lived through the awful experience now sharing their stories of survival.

Let's get more from CNN's Dan Simon in San Bernardino.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John and Christine, you still have a number of people at area hospitals, two people in critical condition. But the others are either in fair or stable condition, which is pretty remarkable considering what some of these people had to go through.

Take the example of 24-year-old Kevin Ortiz. He was shot five times. I spoke to his aunt who told me exactly what he had to go through.

ROSA ORTIZ, AUNT OF SHOOTING VICTIM: He was sitting down with several of his co-workers and there was a break. And several people stepped out into the hallway.

[04:35:00] He heard gunfire but wasn't sure if it was gunfire. He assumed it was a drill of some kind.

The doors opened, and he saw two masked people dressed in black. And he still thought it was a drill. He felt his first shot on his leg but he said he felt more like if someone just threw something at him. It wasn't really sharp pain immediately until a few seconds later.

And then he ended up sustaining another shot on the shoulder. So his reaction then, this is real. Let me get under the table. He got under the table and according to Kevin, the gunman came back and shot him again.

SIMON: How many times was he shot?

ORTIZ: Five times.

SIMON: He was shot five times.

ORTIZ: Five times.

SIMON: Did he think he was going to die?

ORTIZ: Absolutely. That was one of his shots he shared with us. He was able to make two phone calls. One to his wife and one to his father, and to both of them, he said that he had been shot, but he was going to be OK and that he loved them.

SIMON: We've heard several other stories like that. People who after being shot were able to pick up their cell phone and call loved ones making what they thought might be good-bye messages. Obviously, there's going to be many surgeries over the next several days but hopefully many recoveries.

John and Christine, back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: All right. Dan, thank you for that.

The big question facing investigators this morning, was the California shooting terrorism? Were the shooters inspired by ISIS? We're breaking that down next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[04:40:49] BERMAN: The mass shooting in San Bernardino that left 14 victims dead raises so many questions. The shooters, why did they do it? Were warning signs missed? Was there a larger plan?

Correspondent Tom Foreman in the CNN virtual studio walks us through the crime and the questions?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let's start at this office gathering where authorities say Farook left angrily after some sort of dispute and returned in the short order with his wife and the shooting began.

That's where the first real question arises here and that is what set him off? Was it really an honest dispute or some sort of pretext to start the attack? Were there any warning signs? Was he having some kind of problem that somebody might have been aware of that would have told them this was on the way?

And why were the explosives not detonated? Authorities told us they had some bombs of a sort here that could have been set off remotely. They were never set off. Did they get out of range? Did they forget? Did they change their mind? We don't know.

Move to their home about a six-minute drive away and we get a whole new set of questions. The first one being, why did they return home? Certainly, Farook had to be aware of the possibility that someone at the office would have recognized him and alerted police. And, indeed, the police were there. They spotted them. The chase followed, the shootout as well.

Beyond that when you think about all of the thousands of rounds of ammunition, all the bomb-making equipment authorities have cited in the home, how long were they preparing? That's another important question.

And beyond that if you move to the final stage, the shootout in which they lost their lives there, there's a big question in play here. Were they planning something else, either before or after this other event here? Why did they act now? And was someone else involved? Either on the ground or from afar helping them out.

These are all the many, many questions out there right now. And there aren't so far many answers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROMANS: No, and a lot of investigation. Tom Foreman, thank you.

So, what is the motive behind the California mass shooting? That is the focus of the investigation at this point. Was it terrorism?

Joining us via Skype is an expert on radicalization, Dr. Sajjan Gohel. He's the international security director for the Asia-Pacific Foundation think tank.

Good morning. So nice to see you.

So many questions. Let's talk a bit about some major differences here we're seeing. This husband and wife team, you know, armed to the hilt. All of these bombs with a six-month-old baby and they leave the scene. It doesn't bear the hallmarks of other recent Paris-style attacks, for example.

SAJJAN GOHEL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Good morning. We are seeing a very different type of strategy in this attack in San Bernardino. The dynamic that's still very important is whether there was an international connection, whether these individuals were being recruited, radicalized from abroad. Potentially, they were self-starters, if there's an important ideological component in this.

I think this attack really be seen as something random. This attack seemed premeditated. There may have been a longstanding issue, but something like this required some planning, especially with the type of weapons and explosives that were used, and very disturbing with a woman being involved. We've seen women on the periphery of plots but we've never seen them being directly coordinating an attack before.

BERMAN: There are some signs they are trying to cover their tracks. A couple of cell phones destroyed, found at one of the crime scenes. The computer had drive had been removed. Some signs that Rizwan had been deleting files over the last several days.

One of the questions, if this was terrorism, was it inspired by or directed by outside groups? For these groups that are operating primarily in the Middle East, whether it'd be ISIS, AQAP, you know, old fashion al Qaeda, do they care? Is it better to have directed terrorist activity or is their goal to have it be self-starters, inspired by al Qaeda rather than directed by?

[04:45:06] GOHEL: It's a very important point that you raise. It's been established that these individuals were in Saudi Arabia. If we look at that as a clue, the group that tends to be prominent there is al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. That's the group that's plotted attacks against the United States before, the underpants bomber Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab being one of them. Then you also have the ink cartridge plot where they tried to detonate a device on board a cargo plane.

And the other examples that are important to ascertain is that if this was a self-starter group that is motivated ideologically by the material that's available online, some of the explosives and material was similar to the "Inspire" magazine al Qaeda has created. Potentially they've been directed by extremists but it's something they'll have to see whether there's a larger cell, whether this has been compartmentalized.

Unfortunately, this sets a dangerous precedent and the worry could be that will this inspire other potential radicals for plotting several type of incidents.

ROMANS: Let's talk about the jihadi narrative resonating in people that are committing acts like this. I mean, this is such an interesting, different, troubling, chilling case because this is a husband and wife team in the suburbs with a baby. That's the part that it really, really is different than what we've seen in other potential terrorists and in other terrorists who have committed crimes like this. Tell us about the jihadi narrative, why it is resonating.

GOHEL: It's unfortunately a very simple, basic narrative that yet seems to indoctrinate and influence young impressionable individuals. They buy the half truth of groups like al Qaeda or ISIS. Of course, we still need to wait for this to be confirmed.

ROMANS: Of course.

GOHEL: That this is connected to international terrorism, but it's becoming far too common that sometimes people are accepting the very simple base narrative of joining a death cult effectively that somehow by being part of this network, it provides greater meaning for one's life. What they end up doing is not only killing innocent people but besmirching. And it feeds into the dark agenda that terrorist groups are trying to purport.

And far too often, we're seeing an increase of women getting radicalized, of entire families becoming motivated by this. It's a very different dynamic to the post-9/11 era where it was young men from their late teens, early 20s being radicalized. Now, there's actually no specific group that you can actually pigeonhole.

ROMANS: And, of course, one of the dynamics interesting here if it does appear to be linked to international terror is Rizwan Farook, he was born in the United States. He is an American. Born in Illinois. His parents were from Pakistan but he was born in Illinois, raised in California.

So, it's happening to people born, could be, in the United States.

GOHEL: I'm afraid so. And that's been going on now for a while, the assumption that the United States was immune to home-grown radicalization, I'm afraid no longer there. There are some people in the U.S. that are being recruited, being radicalized.

It's also an important reminder it's not just about importing terrorism like it was with the September 11th hijackers. You can recruit from within, host societies, radicalized in front of the computer in your parents' basement. It is more instantaneous, spontaneous, direct. There are different dynamics involved in today's terrorism.

The new media platforms have often cut out the need to travel, the need to physically be in contact with people. A lot of it can be done through the virtual world. And that is something that's had a very dangerous consequence in Europe and unfortunately on the United States now, too.

BERMAN: Dr. Gohel, just lastly, you know, the people at his office, the family, at least publicly so far, they are saying they never saw any signs that there were any problems. Do you think it's possible that this couple did this in complete privacy with no sort of outward signs that something was amiss with that kind of arsenal, with this kind of plan in the works?

GOHEL: On the surface, it is difficult to believe that this was so carefully compartmentalized that there was no leakage of information, that no one else who may have known the couple would be oblivious to it. That's something the authorities are going to have to investigate carefully.

Often, people can tell there are tell-tale signs of extremism, of language that is showing violence, that is talking about retribution or wanting to inflict harm on others.

[04:50:05] But it's dismissed. It's seen as just angry talk by young people. They don't see it as something that could actually be escalated.

But then, in hindsight, it's something that, obviously, people can reflect on. That needs to be looked at. Have they been in touch with other people that's share equally disturbing views, especially through the Internet, because very often there's a piece of the puzzle that if put together forms a much wider picture. The U.S., some of the best investigators in the world, and they were hopefully be able to ascertain if this is a bigger cell or not.

BERMAN: We appreciate your insight. Dr. Sajjan Gohel, thanks for being with us this morning.

ROMANS: All right. A warning that is may be ready to strike again, planning attacks to follow the Paris massacre. We'll tell you what we're learning about where they are planning those attacks, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[04:55:15] BERMAN: Intelligence officials in Europe now suggest the next target of ISIS could be the United Kingdom and that is could be planning a new attack. The intelligence suggests that British ISIS fighters have been instructed by senior is operatives to attack. The question is when, where, how?

CNN senior international correspondent Frederik Pleitgen live in London with more.

Fred, how seriously are British officials taking this warning?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They are certainly taking the terror threat here in Britain very seriously. One of the things the British prime minister said yesterday is he said that since November there have been a total of seven terror plots foiled here in the United Kingdom.

Now, the terror threat level in this country is currently at severe and has been that way since August of last year. There's one notch they could put it up, which is critical. They have not done that so far. But, certainly, you could feel that the authorities here are very much on alert at this point in time.

Now, having said that, the senior European official says it's not clear how imminent these attacks are. But as you said, it appears as though senior ISIS operatives in ISIS territories somewhere in Iraq or Syria have been telling British fighters there to travel back here to the United Kingdom to then conduct attacks here in the U.K., which, of course, is very similar to what's happened to Paris as well. We know some of the attackers there were Belgian-born people who came back to Europe and conducted those attacks in Paris.

Authorities here certainly taking that very, very seriously. At the same time, John, we do have to say at this point in time it's unclear how imminent such an attack could be -- John.

BERMAN: All right. Frederik Pleitgen in London, thanks so much, Fred.

ROMANS: German lawmakers are set to vote to ramp up the country's military operations against ISIS in Syria. A measure considered certain to pass. The German constitution bars most combat operations on foreign soil, so air strikes are out. But the country can expand its military support role. One possibility is deploying high-tech reconnaissance jets to help other countries pinpoint targets in Syria and Iraq.

BERMAN: All branches of the U.S. military will soon be gender neutral. In a historic mood, Defense Secretary Ash Carter is opening all jobs in combat units to women, no exceptions. Prior to this, some 10 percent of military positions were still closed to women. The services must have plans in place to implement this by April 1st.

The Senate passed legislation to repeal some provisions of Obamacare. The bill would strip federal funding from Planned Parenthood. It must still be passed by the House, which passed a different version in October. But most importantly, the White House says the president will veto this if it ever gets to his desk. So, unlikely to become law.

ROMANS: All right. Let's get an early start in your money this morning. U.S. stock futures looking upbeat but European shares lower and Asian stocks, they joined yesterday's global sell-off this morning after the European Central Bank failed to deliver more dramatic stimulus measures than expected. That sent stocks yesterday stumbling, of course. The Dow dropped, look at this, 252 points, tough day. The S&P 500 had its worst day since September.

There's a lot more to keep investors on high alert today. The jobs report, the November jobs report due out at 8:30 a.m. Eastern time today. The final report before the Fed decides whether to raise interest rates for the first time in a decade.

Here's the prediction from CNN money: 192,000 net new jobs, down from October's really strong 271,000. The unemployment rate likely to stay the same, 5 percent. That's a seven-year low.

Yesterday, the Fed Chief Janet Yellen suggested the fed is reed to raise interest rates because the U.S. economy is strong. But she emphasized increases will come slowly in coming months.

Another important decision today. In Vienna, OPEC members are meeting about whether to cut oil production to boost sagging prices. The cartels are likely to keep output steady, that's because leader Saudi Arabia wants to put pressure on American oil producers and keep market share -- Saudi market share high. But smaller players like Venezuela and Algeria want to hit the brakes and push prices higher. So, some big drama in the oil patch, we'll see what happens with OPEC today.

BERMAN: All right. EARLY START continues right now.

(MUSIC)

BERMAN: New information this morning into the shootings in California. The arsenal found at their home -- the guns, the ammunition, plus cell phones and computers recovered. What condition are they in and what information will they provide?

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to EARLY START. I'm John Berman.

CUOMO: Nice to see you this morning, John. Happy Friday. It's -- I'm Christine Romans. It's Friday, December 4th. It's 5:00 a.m. in the East. We welcome all of our viewers in the U.S. and around the world.

All right. That new information this morning on the mass shooting in southern California that killed 14 and injured 21. Law enforcement scouring the home and the rented car of Syed Rizwan Farook.