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Cruz and Sanders Win Wisconsin Primaries. Aired 4-4:30a ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:31] CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: A critical turning point in the race for president. The Republican Party moves closer to a historic, contested convention. Ted Cruz crushing front-runner Donald Trump in the Wisconsin primary.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN ANCHOR: And Bernie Sanders gaining momentum, another big win against Hillary Clinton. Is the Democratic front- runner in danger of losing the nomination?

Good morning and welcome to EARLY START. I'm Miguel Marquez.

ROMANS: What an exciting night.

MARQUEZ: Big night.

ROMANS: I'm Christine Romans. It is Wednesday. It is April 6th. It is 4:00 a.m. in the East.

Our breaking news this morning, the crucial primary wins for Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders. Victories in Wisconsin that keep the two candidates viable and could shake up the race for president -- I think it's fair to say it is shaking up the race for president.

MARQUEZ: It feels like a new morning.

ROMANS: It really does.

On the Republican side, with 99 percent of the vote counted, Cruz soars 13 points past Donald Trump nabbing 48 percent of the vote, John Kasich a distant third.

On the Democratic side, Bernie Sanders wallops Hillary Clinton statewide, taking 56 percent of the vote to Clinton's 43 percent.

Cruz and Sanders celebrate their wins at raucous victory rallies, claiming that even though they are underdogs, they do have a path to the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As a result of the people of Wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundits, I am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1,237 delegates needed to win the Republican nomination. Either before Cleveland or at the convention in Cleveland, together, we will win a majority of the delegates, and together, we will beat Hillary Clinton in November.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: With our victory tonight in Wisconsin, we have now won seven out of eight of the last caucuses and primaries.

(CHEERS)

And we have won almost all of them with overwhelming landslide numbers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: Now, the Wisconsin results move Ted Cruz closer to that magic number of delegates needed to win, 1,237, and they tip the Republican Party much closer now to a contested convention in Cleveland.

To help us sort all this out on what happened on the Republican side, let's bring in this morning's panel, CNN political analyst, Josh Rogin, he's a columnist for "Bloomberg View", CNN politics reporter, Tal Kopan, senior reporter for media and politics, Dylan Byers, and senior media correspondent, Brian Stelter, right here in New York. He is the host of "RELIABLE SOURCES."

Good morning to you --

ROMANS: We call this the A team.

MARQUEZ: Boy, this is the A team. You guys, I'm so impressed. Everybody up all night or up very early for us. Thank you very much.

Josh Rogin, I want to start with you first. You would have expected Donald Trump to at least pull out some of those congressional districts in the north and western part of the state. He didn't. How resounding is this loss for him?

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Well, according to best estimates, he will get three delegates about and Ted Cruz will get about 33. That totally changes the math. You've got hundreds of people all over the Republican world trying to figure out, is Donald Trump on the path towards 1,237? If you were calculating it yesterday, he probably was, and Wisconsin was counted as part of that. So, now, all the calculations are being redone.

And now, if you had to game it out, you would have to say he's probably short of that magic number. The big question here is how short? If he's only 15, 20 delegates short he could probably fudge that. There are a lot of things could be done. If he's 80, 100 delegates, all of a sudden, you've got a real contested convention and a problem for Donald Trump.

So, everyone is redoing their maps. Everyone is redoing their delegate counts. All of a sudden, that idea of a contested convention as Ted Cruz mentioned is much, much more of a probability than it was only 20 hours ago.

ROMANS: Certainly a turning point last night.

I want to read, Tal. I want to read the statement that Donald Trump released last night. Let's read it in its entirety here. It's long, but it is just full of Trumpism.

"Donald J. Trump withstood the onslaught of the establishment yet again. Lyin' Ted Cruz had the governor of Wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts and the entire party apparatus behind him. Not only was he propelled by the anti-Trump super PACs spending countless millions on false advertising against Mr. Trump, but he was coordinating with his own super PACs, which is illegal, who totally control him. Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet -- he is a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump."

[04:05:06] Wow, he is -- he is huffing mad, I think, this morning, Tal.

TAL KOPAN, CNN POLITICS DIGITAL REPORTER: Yes, it's pretty remarkable and in many ways, pretty classic Trump that we've got going on here. Very gracious in defeat as always.

You know, this is sort of doing two things, this statement. On one hand, it's riling up his base. Keep in mind that the group of people that he's continually been the strongest with are the people who are most angry with the way the GOP establishment is going, with the people who believe that the politicians in Washington are all corrupt and working against the interests of the actual grassroots movement.

So, he's reaching out to those people. It's amazing how over night, Ted Cruz has suddenly become the candidate of the establishment and Donald Trump is trying to capitalize on that and get his supporters really fired up again.

On the other hand, this is also a warning shot. This is a reminder to the RNC, to all the other candidates, to his future opponents in a potential general election, is sort of don't mess with me. If there's a there to go there, Donald Trump will go there. And this statement was absolutely chockfull of examples of that.

MARQUEZ: Yes, calling it illegal is a shot across the bow there.

I want to go to Brian Stelter here.

He was hammered by the conservative talk show radio hosts in Wisconsin.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right.

MARQUEZ: He had a bad week nationally with abortion and everything else. Is this a one-off or can, is he just on wobble here, or can he regain?

STELTER: You mentioned those radio shows, they are very influential on some of the cities in Wisconsin, it does seem like they had an effect. Of course, they were supporting Ted Cruz in many cases. We also, when we hear that statement, it is amazing, as Tal said.

It's also in some ways wrong to say that Cruz is worse than a puppet, he's a Trojan horse. There's no evidence of that. There's certainly not evidence that he is the establishment favorite, although yes, some Republicans are moving to Cruz reluctantly.

It is extraordinary to see Cruz being embraced in that way, and the idea that Donald Trump would have this scorched earth strategy is not surprising but it is wrong in some ways. Some of the things he said in his statement. Keep in mind, Trump didn't even speak last night. He made a really interesting choice not to have an event, not to have a rally, not to use the free cable news air time. Neither did Hillary Clinton.

So, the two front-runner candidates decided to skip last night entirely and focus instead on New York.

ROMANS: We just want to highlight he didn't win, because this is a guy who talk -- calls other people losers, first place is first place. So, not standing in front of the cameras --

STELTER: So, what does he do when he doesn't win? He suggests there's illegalities. He suggest there's funny business going on. That, of course, is a little bit worrisome when you think about the summer, the idea that he would sow conspiracy theories, saying that there's something amiss going on. It makes me wonder how this party would be ever united in the summer or the fall.

ROMANS: You know, Dylan, we'd been looking a lot at, you know, what is Wisconsin, how Wisconsin maybe is different. Wisconsin is more like Nebraska and Iowa than it is in some of the states that are coming up in the Northeast, certainly like Clinton.

But Cruz -- Cruz last night spoke about his delegate momentum. Let's listen to what Ted Cruz said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRUZ: Four very different states, Utah, Colorado, North Dakota, Wisconsin, four victories, in the last two weeks. And in the coming days when Colorado and Wyoming finish voting, we are likely to have gained over 100 delegates on Donald Trump. As a result of the people of Wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundits, I'm more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1,237 delegates needed to win the Republican nomination.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: Dylan, when you dissect these exit polls, of those who decided in the last few days, they broke for Ted Cruz. Of those who said electability is the top quality, they broke for Ted Cruz. Of those who share my values, they broke Ted Cruz.

Does this translate going forward or is this Wisconsin specific?

DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR REPORTER FOR MEDIA AND POLITICS: Well, look, I think Ted Cruz is a very effective salesman when it comes to spinning the momentum story, but he has a lot to work with here, right?

Like you said, those voters broke for him late. It's also true he made serious inroads with some of the demographic groups that Trump has often done well with. You know, we hear a lot from the Trump campaign saying Wisconsin was not Donald Trump's state. Well, sure it was. There were a lot of white blue collar workers there.

What happened was Donald Trump had a very bad week. You saw the people who voted late gravitating towards Cruz. You saw the radio hosts who really care about conservative values who view Donald Trump as a charlatan, rallying around Cruz. And then, of course, more generally, you have the Republican establishment begrudgingly gravitating towards Cruz.

I think what Cruz is trying to do here is say this moment, this bad week for Donald Trump and this win in Wisconsin and this win in these diverse states, at least geographically diverse, represents a sort of turning of the tide for him and that that is going to be propel him on more even footing for Trump when we get to a brokered convention.

And, look, of course, a little bit of that is Cruz spin, but it's also true that that might wind up being the case.

[04:10:06] MARQUEZ: It's going to be an interesting convention is all I got to say.

ROMANS: Every day is interesting.

All right. Everyone, stick with us. Thanks so much for that great analysis. We're going to keep going it throughout the hour.

Hillary Clinton suffering a crushing defeat. Bernie Sanders cleaning up in the Wisconsin primary. Can his momentum be stopped? We're going to break down with this A team after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: To ignore what you hear on corporate media, the facts are pretty clear -- we have a path towards victory, a path towards the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMANS: Bernie Sanders resounding win overnight in Wisconsin far surpasses his most optimistic polling numbers. He's now won seven of the last eight Democratic contests.

I want to bring back our panel to break down the Democratic side of this race.

[04:15:02] And it's so interesting, Josh Rogin, let me start with you, because -- look, his team is saying they've got the momentum and that that momentum can help sway these superdelegates who seem to be in the corner of Hillary Clinton.

Let's listen to what Bernie Sanders had to say about that last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDERS: I think that a lot of these superdelegates are going to look around them and be saying which candidate has the momentum? Which candidate is bringing out huge numbers of people and creating huge --

(CHEERS)

Which candidate can bring out large numbers of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

ROMANS: Can he bring out large numbers of people, Josh? Can he take the momentum into New York?

ROGIN: Yes, two things. I mean, credit where credit is due to the Sanders campaign for building a string of wins here. But let's remember that the momentum is about to shift back to the Hillary Clinton camp. She's way up in New York, after that, we go to Pennsylvania where she's up by 22 points according to a recent poll.

So, this -- the pendulum is about to swing in the other direction. So, Bernie Sanders can make this momentum argument for another two weeks exactly, unless something drastic happens. The second point is that these superdelegates and the political professionals know this, don't actually make their decision based on momentum. Hundreds of them have been secured by the Clinton camp for years many who owe their political fortunes to the Clinton machine.

I mean, the Clintons have been setting up these superdelegates for about a decade. Even seven, eight wins by Bernie Sanders in the Rust Belt are going ill to the change their mind. It's going to be a much bigger and tougher effort than Bernie is letting on here.

MARQUEZ: No concession speech from Hillary Clinton. But she did tweet, "Congrats to Bernie Sanders on winning Wisconsin. To all the voters and volunteers who poured your hearts into this campaign. Forward. H."

But this is going to get -- it's all about New York. CNN has the next debate on the 14th ahead of the 19th primary.

STELTER: That's right.

MARQUEZ: And this is going to get tough, yes?

STELTER: What happens in the next eight days, between now and that debate is going to be crucial. I thought one of the most interesting reporting last night from Jeff Zeleny who said that the Clinton campaign is going to try to, quote, "disqualify and defeat" Bernie Sanders in the next few days and weeks, perhaps weeks, and then unify the party later.

There's been a variety of strategies with regards to how the Clinton campaign has treated the Sanders campaign. The idea that she's going to be much tougher in the days to come, perhaps ahead of the debate is very interesting.

MARQUEZ: She's kind of started that already by saying it's ideas without -- with empty ideas basically. There's nothing to back it up.

STELTER: And "The New York Daily News" recently, a transcript was published the other day of Bernie Sanders speaking with "The Daily News" seems to support Clinton's argument there, where there were times where he came up short when asked about details, about his plans to break up --

(CROSSTALK)

ROMANS: Doesn't seem to know how he would do that or what it would mean.

STELTER: Of course, so many of his supporters are thrilled to hear him say it. When he doesn't have the detailed follow-ups, I do wonder if that will disappoint some of his fans.

ROMANS: Tal Kopan, let's look at some of these exit polls, because I think it's really interesting to sort of dissect the anatomy of this win for Bernie Sanders. Of those voters who said the top quality was to be honest and trustworthy for their candidate, 82 percent, 83 percent, wow, for Bernie Sanders, 16 percent for Hillary Clinton. Who is more inspiring about the country's future? Bernie Sanders, breaks for Bernie Sanders there.

And, of course, you got young people, no surprise there. That has been consistent. He won independents by a pretty wide margin there, too.

But it's interesting because Hillary Clinton, when asked the top quality for their candidate was the right experience, they think that Hillary Clinton is experienced Democrats in Wisconsin. What do you make of what the exit polls are telling us about the division here between Clinton and Sanders, Tal?

KOPAN: It's a lot of what we've been seeing. Once again she wins on electability. She wins on being ready for the job day one, but he's just more exciting to people, and he's bringing out these young people.

Once again, you know, we've been repeating it because it's important, but the demographics in Wisconsin really favored Bernie Sanders.

Hillary Clinton actually outperformed her last go-around in Wisconsin tonight. It's not a great state for her. It's predominantly white. She does much better among minorities than Bernie Sanders. You know, we've seen over and over now in this campaign that Hillary Clinton wins a few and suddenly pivots to the general election. We write how the Bernie Sanders campaign has been put to bed, then he

comes back and wins these states, and she has to retreat from this general election and go on offensive again Bernie Sanders. That's just not what she wants to be doing right now. She doesn't want to be debating Bernie Sanders. She wants to be focused on the Republicans.

And so, even if, you know, she is probably going to come out on top and she will probably win New York and prevail, it's an irritant.

[04:20:03] It's a thorn in her side that she has to keep coming back to this argument over and over.

STELTER: Even the fact that there's going to be a debate next week is something the she did not want, right? Months ago, she did not want to be debating Bernie Sanders in the middle of April.

MARQUEZ: And she's going to win --

KOPAN: That' right. They played games over this debate for weeks going back and forth over days, doing this dance that they just wasted time on in terms of trying to win voters.

STELTER: I think it's a testament to Bernie Sanders and his supporters, you know? What this election is doing among many other things is reminding that there is a base of this country and Wisconsin and other states, they're much more closer to Bernie Sanders point of view than Clinton's point of view. Sometimes those sorts of voters are not heard from in this election. This year, they're being heard from.

ROMANS: All right. Tal Kopan, we know you've been up all night. You're going to split. Thanks for being here this morning.

The rest of you, we're going to stay tuned here, because the economy is issue number one for voters in Wisconsin. Something we've seen in almost primary states so far. Thirty-seven percent of Democratic voters put the economy and jobs at the top of their list followed by government spending, terrorism and immigration.

Of those voters who said economy and jobs, 54 percent voted for Senator Sanders. Clinton getting 46 percent. On the Republican side, voters are fearful about the future of the U.S. economy.

Look at this, 94 percent of Wisconsin Republicans said they are worried about the U.S. economy. Only 6 percent not worried. Of that 94 percent, Cruz -- Cruz won the biggest share of the votes. This was one of the many areas that Donald Trump had been winning in other primary states, but Cruz took over in Wisconsin.

Another area where that happened, trade. More than half of all Republican voters said trade with other countries takes away U.S. jobs. This is much closer than previous contest. Donald Trump a slight edge here over Cruz, 43 percent to 42 percent.

But this is a big change. Trump -- Trump is usually the candidate who dominates that "trade kills jobs" category. MARQUEZ: The only place he did well last night was among the

moderates in the Republicans and independents. Interestingly enough. Amazing.

Three states moving forward with new laws that critics say legalize discrimination against the LGBT community, but not without consequence. That's up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[04:26:38] MARQUEZ: This morning, Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland returns to Capitol Hill for more meetings with lawmakers. His first sit-down with a Republican Senator John Bozeman of Arkansas went exactly as expected yesterday. Bozeman told Judge Garland he will not get a confirmation hearing. This morning, the Supreme Court nominee meets with several Democratic senators.

ROMANS: New developments in three southern states that are moving forward with a controversial religious freedom laws that LGBT advocates are calling discrimination. In Mississippi, Governor Phil Bryant signed a bill that allows people with religious objections to deny services to gay couples.

In Tennessee, lawmakers are moving ahead on a bill that would allow therapists and marriage counselors to turn away gay parents without risk of legal consequences. PayPal is canceling plans to open a new global operations center in Charlotte because of North Carolina's controversial new transgender bathroom law. It's a move that will cost North Carolina 400 jobs.

MARQUEZ: Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders win big in the Wisconsin primary election. Has the race for president reached a turning point? We're breaking it all down, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)