Return to Transcripts main page

Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Cruz Trounces Trump in Wisconsin; Sanders Beats Clinton All Across Wisconsin. Aired 5-5:30a ET

Aired April 06, 2016 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Our breaking news this morning, the crucial primary wins for Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders, victories in Wisconsin that keep the two candidates viable and that are shaking up the race for president.

[05:00:05] On the Republican side, with 99 percent of the vote counted, Cruz soars 13 past national frontrunner Donald Trump, netting 48 percent of the vote, John Kasich a distant third.

On the Democratic side, Bernie Sanders wallops Hillary Clinton statewide, taking 56 percent of the vote to Clinton's 43 percent. Cruz and Sanders celebrate their wins at raucous victory rallies, claiming that even though they're underdogs, they do have a path to the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: As a result of the people of Wisconsin defying the media, defying the pundits, I am more and more convinced that our campaign is going to earn the 1,237 delegates needed to win the Republican nomination.

(CHEERS)

Either before Cleveland or at the convention in Cleveland.

Together, we will win a majority of the delegates, and together, we will beat Hillary Clinton in November.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: With our victory tonight in Wisconsin, we have now won seven out of eight of the last caucuses and primaries.

(CHEERS)

And we have won almost all of them with overwhelming landslide numbers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN ANCHOR: The Wisconsin results move Ted Cruz closer to that magic number of delegates, 1,237, and they tip the Republican Party much closer now to a contested convention in Cleveland. Let's game out what might happen on the Republican side here. I want

to bring in this morning's panel: CNN political analyst, Josh Rogin. He's a columnist for "Bloomberg View", senior reporter for media and politics, Dylan Byers, and senior media correspondent Brian Stelter. He is the host of "RELIABLE SOURCES."

Good morning.

JOSH ROGIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Good morning.

ROMANS: Josh, let me start with you. The chance of a contested convention, denying Donald Trump the 1,237 he needs. I mean, it looks like it really could happen.

ROGIN: The chances went way up after today, after last night. I mean, if you had asked the political professionals inside the Republican Party -- and I did -- only a week ago, they would have said Donald Trump is on path to 1,237.

Today, nobody can make that claim. And when they were figuring Donald Trump's path to 1,237, that included him winning Wisconsin, which until about a week ago he was expected to do. So, now, the math totally changes. So, now, we see Donald Trump on the path to maybe 1,180, maybe 1,190. That's a little too close for comfort for the never Trump movement. If they can get him down to like 1,150, 1,120, then we've got a real game.

And so, that's what's going on behind the scenes. In public, what we've seen is a total shift of rhetoric with Ted Cruz now acknowledging that rather than get 1,237 before the convention, he's going to try to get it at convention.

Of course, that's been John Kasich's strategy all along. This whole idea of a contested convention is now socialized. It's normal. It's what's expected is probably what's going to happen.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESOPNDENT: It was a fantasy of the press a few months ago, right? Political reporters dreaming about this scenario, and now it actually seems true.

ROGIN: That's right.

MARQUEZ: Dylan Byers, it does appear it is moving that direction. Kasich clearly hoping for that contested convention. Cruz suggesting last night that, well, if we don't get 1,237, we'll get them at the convention.

Is the pressure on Kasich now to get out of this race going to become more intense?

DYLAN BYERS, CNN SENIOR REPORTER FOR MEDIA AND POLITICS: Well, right. I think the pressure on Kasich to get out of the race has always been intense. The case he makes is that he's best positioned by the polls, any way, if not by actual concrete support, to beat Hillary Clinton. What Kasich is sort of riding on is this idea that somehow the Donald Trump circus and the Ted Cruz circus, that's all going to end and that things are going to revert to normal course where the Republican establishment rallies around a safe candidate like Kasich.

And that is so tone deaf to what is actually happening with the Republican Party this cycle. This is not the Kasich cycle. This is not Mitt Romney in 2012. It's not John McCain in 2008. I think what he's hoping is that Donald Trump, who still has time to become even more unpalatable to voters, and Ted Cruz, who may yet become yet more unpalatable to voters than those two already are, that somehow he will benefit from that.

But he's so ill-positioned to do that having only won, you know, his home state of Ohio.

ROMANS: Let's talk about Donald Trump and his reaction to the Cruz victory last night. He did not have a -- he did not have an event. He wasn't on camera or anything.

But this is what he released in this kind of lengthy statement. "Donald J. Trump withstood the establishment yet again. Lyin' Ted Cruz had the governor of Wisconsin, many conservative talk radio show hosts and the entire party apparatus behind him.

[05:05:07] Not only was he propelled by the anti-Trump super PACs spending countless millions of dollars and false advertising against Mr. Trump, but he was coordinating with his own super PAC, which is illegal, who totally control him. Ted Cruz is worse than a puppet, he is a Trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from Mr. Trump."

Josh, wow.

ROGIN: Yes. Well, I'm going to take issue here with Trump's rendering of Greek history, right? If you're like the Trojan horse story, if you're infiltrating the city of Troy and destroying from within, that seems like Trump. Isn't that what he just did to the Republican Party? Right, he came in and sort of snuck into the party, and then totally obliterated it, and now, it's broken beyond all recognition. I think Trump is a much better candidate for Trojan horse.

On the merits, you know, this is a sort of Donald Trump just sort of lashing out, accusing Ted Cruz of breaking the law with no evidence. It's pretty standard fare for the Trump campaign. You know, let's remember that Trump's narrative is winning begets winning. So, last night, he was not winning and he seems pretty upset about it.

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: It is standard fare but it does worry me. The idea that after defeats Trump suggested Cruz is doing something illegal. It's come up before. I'm sure he'll do it again, using words like puppet, et cetera.

It just -- it sows conspiracy theories among Trump supporters. It suggests that the wins are not legal when they're not wins for Trump. And that you wonder how that's going to play out down the road as we look to the summers, we look to the convention, what happens with Trump supporters if they feel something has been stolen from them.

I find it very concerning when we hear this rhetoric from Trump time and time again. I know, the message from the Cruz aides, Trump is in meltdown mode. But I'm pretty that's just wishful thinking.

MARQUEZ: Dylan, if Trump has hit his ceiling with supporters and he can only sort of rally his own supporters, what does he have to do from hereon out to expand his support?

BYERS: Well, look, those supporters first of all aren't going to leave him. There's actually a significant group of people who don't care if Donald Trump has a no good very bad week. They don't care -- they don't mind that he keeps throwing out baseless accusations. I mean, they just fundamentally don't care, because they don't believe anything you or I are saying. They don't believe the media he succeeded in demonizing the media.

I think he needs to continue to hold that support which will be very easy. The challenge is going to be to demonstrate to those people who have begun to doubt him, who maybe are leaning more towards Ted Cruz who do have a problem with some things he said about women, the comments he's made about abortion, he's going to have to find a way to put that in the past. To demonstrate that his Trumpian bravado and his promise to make America great again somehow supersedes all of these controversial things that happened in the past week.

Normally, I would say there's no way he can do it, but, of course, he's Donald Trump. Of course, he probably can.

STELTER: And, Dylan, as you know well, Trump is always effective at changing the subject when he wants to, making the topic what he wants it to be. Look at the front page of "The Washington Post," it's about his plan about how to make Mexico pay for the wall. He gave "The Post" a two-page memo, probably knowing he would lose in Wisconsin he tried to shift the narrative again.

ROMANS: All right, guys.

BYERS: Which between you and I as media reporters, you do have to ask how often is the media going to let him just keep changing the narrative.

ROMANS: I wonder what the narrative will be changed today.

ROGIN: When he wins New York, that will change the narrative a lot.

ROMANS: Yes. All right. There you go.

MARQUEZ: Oh, there's the prediction. Wow.

ROMANS: Thanks, guys. All right. Don't move. We have to talk about Democrats because we're talking about New York now. Hillary Clinton suffering a crushing defeat last night.

MARQUEZ: Huge.

ROMANS: Bernie Sanders cleaning up in Wisconsin. Can his momentum be stopped? Our panel breaks it down, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[05:13:02] SANDERS: If you ignore what you hear on corporate media, the facts are pretty clear -- we have a path toward victory, a path toward the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: Bernie Sanders resounding win overnight in Wisconsin far surpasses his most optimistic polling numbers. He's now won seven of the last eight Democratic contests.

Let's bring back our dream team panel to break down the Democratic side of the race.

Brian Stelter, April 14th is the debate here on CNN. April 19th is the Democratic primary in New York. How tough is this week going to get?

STELTER: This is a debate that Bernie Sanders wanted for many months. Back in January, he said, let's debate before New York. Clearly, he saw an opportunity a long time ago to bring this moment home to compete heavily in the state where we're sitting right now.

And then a week later, in Pennsylvania. So, April 26th, one week after the New York primary. But he's up against the former New York senator. And this is going to in some ways distill the entire contest, because we're going to see Sanders take his message about trade to parts of this state, parts of Upstate New York that have been economically depressed for years. And it will probably resonate quite effectively there.

ROMANS: Yes.

Let's talk about -- you know, let's talk about some of these exit polls. I want to drill into what voters were telling us as they were leaving the polling places. Who has the right experience? Hillary Clinton, 85 percent broke for Hillary Clinton.

Electability, best chance to beat Donald Trump in November, broke for Clinton. These are two of the most important reasons to vote for a candidate. But Bernie Sanders still has the energy and inspiration factor.

Josh Rogin, what are Democrats thinking here and how does Hillary Clinton turn this around so that this momentum for Bernie Sanders, this momentum that he has, she can get people to focus on the electable question and the experience question not the trustworthiness and the energy question.

[05:15:04] ROGIN: Right. I think two things. The calendar will help turn things around for Hillary Clinton all by itself, right? You couldn't get two more different states than Wisconsin and New York. Hillary Clinton is favored in New York. The demographics break for

her there. She spent a lot of time there shoring up her support, whereas Bernie spent a lot of time in Wisconsin which seems to have paid off.

So, that -- so, in a sense, some of these will resolve itself. What Hillary Clinton has to do in the longer term is she has to find a way to sort of capture this enthusiasm and momentum and bring Bernie Sanders camp into her camp as they head towards the convention. That's why when Bernie Sanders talks about a contested convention, something he may be doing sort of stir the pot, but maybe also a possibility, that's really bad for Hillary Clinton. She wants to keep the veneer of a Democratic Party that has some differences but it largely united as opposed to the GOP party which is broken at the seams.

So, the longer this goes on, the harder that is for her to do. She has to keep the public face that everything is going OK. New York will be key to that.

MARQUEZ: Well, New York is key to that. She has to win -- she doesn't just have to win. She has to win by a sizable margin here. She's already spending time upstate and in the far western parts, much like when she campaigned for Senate first time around.

Dylan, how does she -- how does she have to perform in New York in order to make it count?

BYERS: Well, she has to win and she has to win big, you know? As much as we cast doubt on Bernie Sanders path towards the nomination or even towards a brokered convention, it is true that if Hillary Clinton were to lose -- I don't mean just like spin a -- the Sanders campaign spinning a loss. But really fundamentally lose New York to Bernie Sanders, that would absolutely change the narrative. It is your home state, and the rule in politics is that you do have to at least win your home state.

But for me, what I'm interested if what does Bernie Sanders have to do in New York, because you go back to the exit polls that Christine just brought up, no one doubts Bernie Sanders enthusiasm. No one doubts that he's passionate about the things he talks about.

But there was an interview he gave with New York daily news recently where he showed an inability to answer some fundamental questions not just about other policy issues, like foreign policy, but about his central policy which is taking on Wall Street. He seemed very unprepared. If he wants to show up in New York, I think what he's going to have to do is demonstrate that he has a command of some of these issues, so that huge turnout for those exit polls that say Hillary Clinton has more experience, she's better suited to be president, he can't make the argument he can compete with her on that level if he can't get a solid grasp and come up with some serious, substantive answers on how he would take on Wall Street and what he would do about domestic and foreign policy.

ROMANS: Dylan, that's a really good point. We need to talk about that a little too, Brian. You know, he couldn't

--

(CROSSTALK)

STELTER: The Clinton campaign could use that interview in the days to come.

ROMANS: I think you're right. I mean, he couldn't explain how he would break up the banks. Breaking up the banks would be a fundamental change to the American financial system. He has really excited so many followers on that idea of breaking up the banks, punishing the banks for what they did for the financial crisis, but he stumbled on how he would execute it.

STELTER: We saw Clinton's press secretary commenting on that particular interview and saying, if you're going to be a single issue candidate, at least know your single issue. I think that's maybe trying out an attack line that we're going to hear in the days to come. There were signals last night that the Clinton campaign is going to go tougher at Sanders in the days ahead, they'll wait until later to unify the party and just take away from -- whatever semblance of momentum Sanders has, whether he has it or not, they want to take away that perception.

ROMANS: Yes, new tack in the campaign.

MARQUEZ: This debate and this primary coming to New York. Amazing.

ROMANS: All right. Thanks, guys. We'll get to you back in a minute.

STELTER: Thanks.

ROMANS: Let's look some more at those exit polls. The economy issue number one for voters in Wisconsin. We've seen it in almost every primary state so far. Thirty-seven percent of Democratic voters put the economy and jobs at the top of their list, followed by government spending, terrorism and immigration. Of those voters who said economy and jobs, 54 percent voted for Senator Clinton -- or Sanders, rather, 46 percent for Clinton.

On the Republican side, voters are fearful about the future of the U.S. economy. Look at that, Wisconsin Republicans are worried, overwhelmingly worried, 94 percent. Of that 94 percent, though, Cruz took the largest share of votes.

Now, this was one of the many areas that Donald Trump had consistently won other primary states. But in Wisconsin, of those worried about the economy, it was Cruz.

Another area where that happened, trade. More than half of all Republican voters say trade with other countries takes away U.S. jobs. U.S. trade deals are job killers. This was much closer than previous contests, Donald Trump with a slight edge over Cruz.

But this is a big change. Trump usually dominates with this group. [05:20:00] Of those who think that international trade is an American

job killer, usually that's far and away a Trump category. Not this time.

MARQUEZ: Interesting in Wisconsin, though. Different demographic in Wisconsin. We will see in New York.

Three states moving forward with new laws that critics say legalizes discrimination against the LGBT community but not without consequences. We'll tell you what those are, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ROMANS: This morning, Supreme Court nominee Merrick Garland returns to Capitol Hill for more meetings with lawmakers. His first sit-down with a Republican Senator John Bozeman of Arkansas went exactly as expected yesterday. He told Judge Garland he will not get a confirmation hearing.

[05:25:01] This morning, the Supreme Court nominee meets with several Democratic senators.

MARQUEZ: And new developments in three southern states that are moving forward with a controversial religious freedom laws that LGBT advocates are calling discriminatory. In Mississippi, Governor Phil Bryant signed a bill that allows people with religious objections to deny services to gay couples.

In Tennessee, lawmakers are moving ahead on a bill that would allow therapists and marriage counselors to turn away gay patients without risk of legal consequences. And PayPal is canceling plans to open a new global operations center in Charlotte because of North Carolina's controversial new transgender bathroom law. That move that will cost North Carolina 400 jobs.

ROMANS: The first casualty of the Panama Papers is Iceland's embattled prime minister, Sigmundur Gunnlaugsson. He resigned Tuesday in the face of mounting pressure and widening protests. Gunnlaugsson and his wealthy wife are accused of concealing millions of dollars of investments in offshore accounts. And now comes word the Panamanian law firm where the Panama Papers originated, Mossack Fonseca, is linked to many of them formed in Wyoming and Nevada in the last 15 years.

MARQUEZ: That's sprawling --

ROMANS: Peeling back the union.

MARQUEZ: Unbelievable.

Ted Cruz and Bernie Sanders win big in the Wisconsin primary election. Has the race for president reached a turning point? We are breaking it all down with an expert top class panel, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)