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Early Start with John Berman and Zoraida Sambolin

Hamas, U.S. Say Deal Is Close For Ceasefire, Release Of Hostages; Federal Appeals Court Appears Inclined To Restore Trump Gag Order, But May Loosen Restrictions; Eagles Avenge Super Bowl LVII Loss To Chiefs. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired November 21, 2023 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: National Security Council spokesman John Kirby was asked whether the hostages released might include any Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL SPOKESMAN: I mean, I know that everybody is interested in the numbers and who they are going to be. We're working that through, literally, in real time with both sides. So I think it's better if I just don't speculate about what that pool is going to look like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, CNN's Scott McLean is live for us in Istanbul. Scott, U.S. officials said Sunday that negotiators were close. Yesterday, that was closer. Do we have any insight into what the final sticking points might be here?

SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. So according to the Qataris, Kasie, the final sticking points are more logistical rather than anything that represents the actual core of what they have agreed on.

But the families of these hostages -- well, they have been extremely outspoken over the last -- more than a month now of this war. They have held rallies. They have had marches. They have demanded meetings with the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and yesterday they got one.

They had previously demanded sort of an all-for-all deal. All of the 239 or so hostages held in Gaza in exchange for all of the Palestinian prisoners being held in Israel, and that's about 6,000 or so of them. And broadly speaking, polling shows that the Israeli public is supportive of releasing even thousands of Palestinian prisoners in exchange for all of these hostages.

Those hostage families also attended yesterday a meeting -- or a committee meeting of the Israeli Knesset and among the lawmakers who was there is the national security minister. This is a hardline, far- right, very divisive figure in Israel. This is a guy who wants to annex the Palestinian territories and he says that in plain -- in plain words.

And part of why the emotions boiled over yesterday is because of a law that the national security minister is pushing. And I just want to give you a sense of what it was like inside of the room. This video that you're about to watch is not translated but trust me, you don't need to speak Hebrew to understand the level of emotion inside the room -- listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCLEAN: So the law that is being pushed by the national security minister is one that would hand down the death penalty to terrorists and under normal circumstances perhaps that would be less controversial. But under these circumstances, the families worry that kind of a thing will only further endanger their loved ones who are being held in Gaza.

One man whose daughter and wife are being held right now said that lawmakers need to focus less on death and less on wiping out Hamas and more on the living, meaning their loved ones who are being held hostage right now.

It's also worth keeping in mind a couple of the complexities of all of this. First off, Kasie, it's not entirely clear that the Hamas leadership actually knows precisely where all of the hostages are being held. We assume underground inside Gaza.

There are also political complexities within Israel as well, and that is that all of the Israeli cabinet -- some of them are quite far-right figures -- would need to agree to release any Palestinian prisoners. And look, many of these lawmakers are much more intent on destroying Hamas right now than they are about getting these hostages out.

HUNT: A very difficult proposition.

Scott McLean in Istanbul for us. Thank you very much.

All right, let's bring CNN military analyst, retired Air Force Col. Cedric Leighton. He was a former member of the Joint Staff at the Pentagon. Colonel, always great to have you here.

Let's talk about the contours of this deal and what's being reported here. It sounds like they're close, closer -- maybe any day now, we heard from Hamas on their platform telegram.

What are you paying attention to here as we potentially see this come together?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST, FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR TRAINING, NSA, AIR FORCE COLONEL (RET.): Well, good morning, Kasie.

I think the main thing is that telegram message from Hamas at the moment. That is something that is I think critical because it basically shows that the positions that are outlined by the White House, by Israel, by the Qataris, and by Hamas seem to be coming pretty close to some degree of alignment, and that is significant. So that's I think the main thing at the moment.

Of course, the other thing that we have to watch is, as Scott pointed out in his report, what's going on within Israel domestically. That is something that is really significant and, of course, that could have an impact -- and probably a negative impact on the negotiations.

So the way the right wing in Israel is looking at this, the way the Knesset is dealing with the possible laws that it could impose the death penalty on terrorists -- that kind of thing that, of course, could have potentially negative effects and the Knesset would be wise to table consideration of such measures if they want to release -- the release of the hostages.

[05:35:04]

HUNT: Can you help us understand militarily the tension between people who want a pause for hostage release and what Hamas might be able to do with a pause? I mean, what are those who are focused on getting rid -- eradicating Hamas worried that they are going to do in that time?

LEIGHTON: Yes. So what they're worried about is basically regrouping of Hamas forces. So, Kasie, when they go through something like a truce and they have the means to move about -- Hamas fighters have the means to move about without being put at risk by artillery shells, by bombing, that can give them the chance to move to different areas that are more defendable than where they currently are at.

It could also mean that they could lay ambushes for IDF forces once the truce stops. So that is certainly something to consider.

From a military standpoint, that probably puts the IDF at the greatest risk. The truce -- a truce of this type that seems to be developing here is one where both sides face a degree of risk. There's always the possibility of mistakes. That somebody may be a bit trigger-happy and cause some problems is always a risk, of course.

But the main thing is this. The right wing in Israel is worried about the possibility of these forces regrouping and moving into positions of great restraint (PH).

HUNT: So, Colonel, the Shifa hospital complex -- the former prime minister of Israel, Ehud Barak, told CNN yesterday that Israel built the bunkers underneath the hospital decades ago. This seems to have been something of an open secret. And it raises a lot of questions about -- you know, there's been this kind of complex information war about whether these things existed. Basically, the Israelis knew that they existed all along because they put them there. What is your understanding of how this came to be, and what does that say about what the Israelis know -- their intelligence capabilities in these areas and other things along those lines?

LEIGHTON: Yes, so that is always an interesting statement. After the Israelis put those bunkers there you would think that they would have them mapped out completely. They are clearly sophisticated construction based on what we're seeing here in the videos that the IDF has sent us.

It seems to me that -- you know, I can't believe that the Israelis would have put a bunch of bunkers in a -- in a place like this. But if they did, clearly, Hamas has turned the tables on the Israelis and is using what was built for their own purposes and using it quite effectively.

I think the big thing here is that Hamas is basically a guerrilla organization. They are insurgents. They know how to blend into the local population. They know how to blend into the local infrastructure, and no matter who creates that infrastructure they're willing to use it.

And it shows a degree of operational finesse on the part of Hamas. But also, from an Israeli intelligence perspective, clearly, there is a gap in the way the Israelis have processed their intelligence and their ability to keep track of Hamas in real time is always something that is a challenge even in the best of times.

So there are some significant issues with the way in which this has unfolded, really, for both sides -- but, in particular, for Israel. It has put them on the defensive during the course of this -- of this operation.

HUNT: All right, Col. Cedric Leighton. Thank you very much for being with us this morning, sir. I really appreciate it.

All right. Trump lawyers and federal prosecutors faced off in a D.C. court yesterday over the fate of a gag order against the former president in his federal election subversion case.

The three-judge panel hearing their arguments shot down Trump's claims that the order infringed on his core political speech, responding that the order is quote, "...only affecting the speech temporarily during a criminal trial process by someone who has been indicted as a felon."

But they did indicate a willingness to loosen some of the gag order's restrictions acknowledging that Trump should be given some leeway.

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JUDGE CORNELIA PILLARD, D.C. CIRCUIT COURT: Well, and it can't be that he can't mention Mr. Smith. Clearly, he is -- has a thick enough skin. He's on this team.

JUDGE PATRICIA MILLETT, D.C. CIRCUIT COURT: He has to speak Ms. Manners while everyone else is throwing targets at him. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Now, whether Ms. Manners Trump can abide by any modified gag order is, of course, a different question.

Let's bring in CNN legal Joey Jackson to unpack all of this for us. Joey, good morning. It is always good to see you.

Quite a bit of ground was covered yesterday. This appeals court debated the limits of free speech as you just heard there -- hypothetical threats against Mike Pence, the former vice president, and other potential witnesses.

[05:40:06]

I want to play for everyone this exchange about that question and then we'll talk about it -- watch.

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MILLETT: What if he instead gets on a stage somewhere or on social media and says that exact same thing: Ms. X, a public figure, is being bothered by the prosecutor? The people who are loyal, honest patriots don't talk to the government.

D. JOHN SAUER, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: He hasn't said that and it is a mischaracterization --

MILLETT: Please answer -- please answer the question.

SAUER: -- to say that.

MILLETT: I'm not suggesting he has said that. This is -- to be clear for the record, this is a hypothetical question.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: A hypothetical question but potentially real in this particular case.

What do you make of all this?

JOEY JACKSON, CNN LEGAL ANALYST, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, Kasie, good morning to you.

So I make that the court is struggling to, on the one hand, certainly allow Mr. Trump to have his rights under the First Amendment -- something that we hold near and dear. But on the other hand, the court has to give some measure of protection to witnesses who could be in danger.

Remember, Kasie, when we talk about the First Amendment -- yes, you have strong First Amendment protections, particularly as they relate to political speech. But you can't say whatever you want whenever you want because that could run afoul of the Constitution. What do I mean? Let's bring it back to the elementary level. You can't

yell fire in a movie theater. You can't defame people just because you feel like it because you could end up in court, right? Defamation, false statements that injure people's reputation that are, in essence, causing them damages.

And so I think what the court is doing is they're trying to struggle and get that delicate balance right between the right of Mr. Trump to campaign freely and broadly and state opinions and target various things that he believes are unfair, on the one hand. And on the other hand, not have people intimidated, really called out on social media, families threatened, and potential violence.

So I think the court will ultimately craft a measure which does that. The interesting question is what that measure will look like.

HUNT: Right. So we can actually show everyone what it currently says because there are a couple of kind of categories of people.

The gag order says that Trump can't target court personnel. He can target potential witnesses. He can't target the special counsel and the special counsel's staff.

There are no restrictions on him commenting around the jury pool and the city of Washington. Certain comments about the Biden administration are also fair.

What on this list most concerns you? What do you think most concerns the Trump team? Certainly, I expect him to very much want to target the special counsel but that is prohibited here.

JACKSON: Yeah. I believe what most concerns the court are going to be the issues of witnesses.

I'm not sure that the court is that concerned about the special counsel -- not in a negative way but the special counsel certainly being a public figure. People know who the special counsel is. His name is mentioned over and over -- Jack Smith, Jack Smith. He is in charge of having to do these investigations.

Would it impede Mr. Trump's constitutional right not to be able to attack another political figure who is going after him?

So I think what the court is really trying to do and what it boils down to are people who are innocent parties. Usually, Kasie, when we're talking about these issues it's about the right to a fair trial. It's about does it substantially impair the proceedings.

Here, it's kind of different. We're not really concerned about that. What we're concerned about, right, in essence, are whether witnesses will be subjected to violence and harm. And in this day and age of social media where you can put something out there and people really could be impaired and damaged, then people staking outside their homes and places of employment and taking this seriously -- that's a problem.

So I think that's the thing the court is going to hone in on ultimately.

HUNT: Yeah, it's such a good point.

All right, Joey Jackson. Thank you, as always, for being with us. I hope you'll come back.

JACKSON: Absolutely.

HUNT: All right, just ahead here, President Biden, inflation, and the price of turkey. How that price of dinner will help or hinder Biden's campaign.

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[05:48:35]

HUNT: Welcome back.

As you head to the grocery store ahead of your Thanksgiving dinner on Thursday you might notice your grocery bill is lower than last year's because prices are dropping on everything from the cost of gas to the cost of turkey.

The Biden administration eager to promote these numbers but they are still struggling to convince voters around their economic messaging. The White House reaction to these polls -- not really concerned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We're not going to change the minds of Americans. I get that. Americans are going to feel how they feel and we're going to respect that. What I can tell you is what our perspective is. What I can tell you is how we see things. And we believe experience -- this president having experience to get things done is important.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: OK, I would say that they are concerned but that's their approach.

Tyler Pager, of The Washington Post, wrote about this issue as the White House is trying to continue to ease economic anxiety.

The former president, Donald Trump, was on a podcast yesterday, of course, trying to hit back at the Biden campaign messaging. I want to show you what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Inflation is a country- buster. It breaks up countries. It's -- you go back 200 years-300 years and you take a look. Inflation is a country-buster. And we have the worst inflation in 72 years.

(END VIDEO CLIP) [05:50:07]

HUNT: So that was President Trump.

We are hoping to bring The Washington Post's Tyler Pager to you but we're having a couple of technical issues getting him up. So we're going to take a quick break and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL)

HUNT: Welcome back.

We are talking about the Biden administration struggling with their economic messaging as prices like things like food and gas are falling right ahead of the holidays.

We now have Tyler Pager, a White House reporter at The Washington Post. Clearly, his internet has already checked out for the Thanksgiving holiday. Tyler, thank you so much for being up early with us.

[05:55:00]

I read your story with great interest about how the White House is struggling to message around the economy and the anxiety Democrats are feeling generally. Sum it up for us.

TYLER PAGER, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST (via Webex by Cisco): Yeah, that's exactly right, Kasie. It's great to be with you.

And as we see in polls in battleground states and nationally that show President Biden trailing former President Trump there is increasing anxiety throughout the Democratic Party. That should come as no surprise. Democrats are often known to get quite anxious ahead of elections, and there's still almost a year until Election Day.

But I think there's a host of issues that Democrats have identified with President Biden at this point. Obviously, his birthday was yesterday. His advanced age is one source of concern.

But critically, on the economic messages -- messaging, Democrats feel they haven't really landed on an effective message about the economy. And as James Carville famously said in 1992, it's the economy, stupid. And so, as the economy has positive indicators, the White House, Democratic officials, and the Biden campaign are eager to take credit for the economic growth we're seeing in the dropping prices.

Inflation is a problem that has plagued the Biden administration for more than a year at this point. And so any opportunity they get to really pounce on that I think they're eager to take.

HUNT: Is the White House still using or liking the phrase "Bidenomics?" Because what we heard from Karine Jean-Pierre that we played a little earlier it was basically like well, we know we can't convince people it's good but we can try to tell them what we're doing. Bidenomics seemed like a concerted effort to try to convince them

things are good and Biden did it, but certainly sources I've talked to say it was backfiring.

What's the thinking in the White House on this right now?

PAGER: Yeah, it's a little unclear exactly where they've landed on this. Bidenomics was something the White House tried to own when it was negatively used against the Biden administration particularly. And some conservative circles -- they tried to latch onto it to take something negative and turn it into a positive.

Many Democratic pollsters, Democratic sources, and Democratic lawmakers say that was the wrong idea and Americans don't feel good about the economy, so why would you try to brand it after yourself?

And the White House has sort of oscillated between latching onto the phrase and using it around this and sort of stepping back away from it. It sort of goes in and out of style at the White House these days. I think we're seeing a little bit less of it than we did earlier this fall, but it seems they haven't fully abandoned the phrase.

But it is definitely a source of tension within the Democratic Party about this messaging is the White House is eager to take credit for the positive economic indicators but officials around the country saying Americans don't feel good about the economy and you need to reckon with that fact regardless of what the economic indicators say.

HUNT: Yeah, and maybe in an -- contact some election and find somebody else to blame for it.

Tyler Pager of The Washington Post, thank you very much. I really appreciate you being here this morning. See you soon, I hope.

All right, to sports now. We did not get to see the most anticipated joining of two families since The Starks and the Baratheons -- maybe more people are going to get that, anyway -- last night, but they did watch a rematch of last season's Super Bowl and it lived up to the hype.

Coy Wire has this morning's Bleacher Report. I will say I didn't live -- I needed Taylor. I really needed Taylor, even as an Eagles fan. But you tell us what happened.

COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: She was doing her thing in Brazil. She needed to change her plans last minute to do a makeup concert down there in Rio. Mom and dad decided against attending the NFL version of "Meet the Parents."

We did still have a Kelce-Swift sighting at the big Eagles-Chiefs matchup. Phillies' Jason Kelce and his running back D'Andre Swift who went off for 76 yards and a score. Brother Travis Kelce found the end zone too, snagging his fifth touchdown of the season in the second. The Chiefs up 10 at the half.

But Kelce had just 44 yards overall as the night took a turn. Bradley Roby forcing a Travis Kelce fumble inside the 10. Philly makes them pay. Jalen Hurts throwing a 41-yard strike to DeVonta Smith, setting up a go-ahead score.

And a bit of deja vu from the Super Bowl. Mahomes getting a chance to win on the Chiefs' final drive. Perfect pass but Marquez Valdes- Scantling drops it. The Chiefs lead the league in drops this season. Mahomes can't believe it. KC would not win this time.

The Super Bowl rematch and, perhaps, preview lived up to the hype. Brotherly love on display as the Eagles win 21-17, avenging their Super Bowl loss. Now 9-1 for a second-straight season.

Coach Nick Sirianni showing off his vocab.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NICK SIRIANNA, PHILADELPHIA EAGLES COACH: Whoever was going to win that game was going to do it gritty, grimy, nasty -- all those -- all those -- what are those, adjectives? Yeah, OK, thanks. I want to Mount Union, but it is a good school. But it was going to be that way. And the guys just stayed together and kept fighting and kept grinding it out, and we were able to come out on top.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WIRE: So, Kasie, this bizarre trend continues. Taylor Swift has missed five of Travis Kelce's games now and he's averaging just 41 yards and the Chiefs have two losses in those. But in the four games she's been there Kelce has over 100 yards. KC was undefeated. So they need to do whatever they can I believe to get her in the stands.

[06:00:13]

HUNT: I was going to say -- I mean, obviously, the Chiefs have to go to the Super Bowl. Obviously, Taylor Swift has to show up at the Super Bowl. Otherwise, America, I think, is going to be very disappointed.

WIRE: Now we know how to beat them if you're playing against them. Just make sure Taylor doesn't go.

HUNT: For real.

All right, Coy. Thank you very much.

WIRE: All right.

HUNT: I'll see you tomorrow.

Thanks to all of you for joining us. I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere because "CNN THIS MORNING" starts right now.