Return to Transcripts main page

Early Start with Rahel Solomon

Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni To Visit White House To Focus On Tariffs And Defense; Trump Threatens To Tax Harvard As A "Political Entity"; Report: Actor's Wife Researched Flu Symptoms Before Death. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired April 16, 2025 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: Because back in Europe there is a fierce debate right now in the EU about whether to hit back at the U.S. with its own reciprocal tariffs. And Meloni has considerable influence here. Help us understand sort of the dynamics back home in the EU.

MARCO SIMONI, PROFESSOR, EUROPEAN POLITICAL ECONOMY, LUISS UNIVERSITY: Yeah, there are different approaches. You know, you have to think about the fact that the EU is an institution built for peace in times of peace and the level of confrontation this American administration is bringing to the global economy is not the one really of peace; just raising tariffs unilaterally. So it's somehow taking the EU as a -- as a new thing to deal with.

And I think that it would be very wise not to escalate and not to respond to tariffs because we are in a very strange situation -- unprecedented -- when one single country is putting tariffs on all the others. So it's not an attack on the EU precisely, so we should just avoid escalation.

On this I agree with the stance not only of Meloni but also Spain and other countries that are for more a more modern approach --

SOLOMON: Yeah.

SIMONI: -- because the negative consequence of tariffs would be mostly felt within the United States than anywhere else in the world. So let them play if Trump really wants them, but keep the dialogue open because ultimately, we have American people European people talking to each other saying society and the economy should go ahead and push political leaders to reduce confrontation.

SOLOMON: And to make a fine -- put a point on that -- I mean, your argument is that these tariffs hurt American consumers most. So don't reciprocate, don't retaliate because in doing that you sort of give Trump a talking point if for, in fact, the U.S. does go into a recession it allows Trump to say, in your view --

SIMONI: Yeah.

SOLOMON: -- hey, this is because of these other retaliatory tariffs that these countries placed on us.

SIMONI: That's right.

SOLOMON: And so your point is essentially let the U.S. self-destruct.

SIMONI: Well, let's -- not only consumers but producers. There is a lot of things that you make -- that your small businesses like to make and sell -- again, resell -- that come from imports. Like, the entire American economy is the big winner of the last 20 years of globalization. So by deglobalize de facto the American economy is hurting itself.

So why do we want -- if you see a friend that is hurting himself you are not going to hurt yourself to -- you know, to imitate him. You're just going to try to convince him that that's not a good idea, and that's what we should be doing. You know, talking to us American friends -- our American friends and tell them please just stop it because you're not helping anybody here, and the least of all yourself.

So, no -- retaliation is not -- is a wise strategy. Retaliation is just escalating a war. And a trade war is like any other war. Like, you know when you start it you never know how to finish it.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

SIMONI: And we've seen this in the Ukraine, in the Middle East, and you don't want that.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

Marco, lastly, if Giorgia Meloni can't convince Trump to see things differently as it relates to Europe, who else could? If not her, who?

I thought it was really interesting that Vice President J.D. Vance talked about, pretty warmly I think this week, Keir Starmer and perhaps a deal with the U.K.

SIMONI: Well, I think that we are missing a little bit -- the U.K. within the European Union and vice versa. The Brexit was a bad idea for all of us. I don't think that it will be an on-off deciding or not deciding or convincing or not convincing. I think it will be a process. I think that if the ice breaks and we can talk that things will improve. If this doesn't happen and Meloni has a good chance of doing it, then it will be a lot of discussion within Europe what to do to improve growth.

I think that what is missing here is that global growth is already going to be damaged by the fact that the U.S. is going to grow less. And you have seen the latest numbers. You probably burned already the prediction of three percent growth for this year for the United States is not going to happen because of the policy of this administration. And this will have repercussions already on European and global growth.

So we should take measures to improve growth within Europe like China is doing within China. Everybody should focus on do the most we can to grow knowing that the U.S. is not pulling -- the chariot is not growing. So that's what is going to happen if dialogue cools down.

SOLOMON: No, I think it's a great point. I mean, it sort of reminds you of that old expression when the U.S. sneezes the whole world gets a cold. So it's certainly a great point just in terms --

SIMONI: Yeah.

SOLOMON: -- the global growth forecast and outlook.

Marco Simoni in Rome. We'll leave it here. Thank you so much.

SIMONI: Thank you so much.

SOLOMON: All right. Harvard is standing firm against Donald Trump's demands for policy changes, but the school's tax exempt status -- well, that could now be in jeopardy. We'll take a look at the significance of this battle between the president and the nation's oldest university.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:39:32]

SOLOMON: Welcome back.

Donald Trump's ideological battle with some of America's most prestigious colleges and universities has risen to a new level with Harvard. The president now threatening to strip the oldest university in the U.S. of its tax exempt status and tax Harvard as a political entity. That's after its leaders refused to make key policy changes that the White House is demanding. Harvard appears to be the first prominent university to openly rebuke those demands.

[05:40:00]

The Trump administration claims that the policy changes are meant to combat antisemitism on campus after last year's contentious student protests over the war in Gaza. But it also wants to root out programs and policies involved diversity, equity, and inclusion.

Now, the president of Harvard says that the school "Will not surrender its independence or relinquish its constitutional rights."

The Trump administration has since frozen more than $2 billion in federal grants and contracts at Harvard. The school's former president called it a "punitive and unlawful attack."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER PRESIDENT, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: This is an attempt to impose the kind of regulation on Harvard that is imposed by governments on universities in countries that we don't think of as democracies. Countries that don't have free speech protections.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: And now the Trump administration says that it wants an apology from Harvard.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He also wants to see Harvard apologize, and Harvard should apologize for the egregious antisemitism that took place on their college campus against Jewish American students.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: With me now from Washington is Stephen Collinson, CNN's senior politics reporter. Stephen, thanks for waking up early to be with us.

Let's start with Harvard pushing back.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER: Sure.

SOLOMON: I want to get to your piece just a few hours ago that reads, "A university more used to producing presidents than defying them thus set off one of the most important clashes yet been President Donald Trump and an establishment institution."

Stephen, why one of the most important because as we'll get to, he's involved in many clashes at the moment?

COLLINSON: Well, I think the prestigious nature of Harvard and how important it is in American civil society, it is leading I think the fight back against what the Trump administration is trying to do to American universities. And its power, I think, gives it special resonance.

The administration's attempt to impose new restrictions on Harvard is not an isolation. They've done this to a number of Ivy League universities.

And ostensibly, it arises out of what was some antisemitism and ugly incidents during the protests against Hamas and Israel's war in Gaza following the Hamas attacks on Israel in 2023. But it's going a lot wider. As you said, it's tackling diversity, equity, and inclusion programs. It looks like it's trying to force the university to hire more conservative scholars. Faculties on U.S. universities, of course, are pretty liberal.

So what Harvard is saying is it's trying to impose the dogma of Trump's political views on an independent university, and that's incompatible with free speech in a democracy.

SOLOMON: Hmm.

Stephen, let's talk about some of the other clashes between the Trump administration, whether it's this term or last term -- the science community. Think about COVID. The media, a familiar foe after his first administration. But unlike his first term, Stephen -- and this has been getting a lot more attention than perhaps even I expected it would -- but he is now going hard at law firms in way that I think has taken a lot of people by surprise.

What's your sense based on your reporting of what's the end goal here for this administration?

COLLINSON: Yeah, that's really interesting. And the reaction of some of these law firms is also worrying a lot of people who are worried about how the Trump administration is attacking democracy.

It's all rooted -- if you go back to the campaign, you'll remember the president kept talking about how he was going to go after his political enemies. He believes he was targeted by the Biden administration because of all those criminal cases against him, including for the uprising at the U.S. Capitol in 2021. So he has been targeting law firms who employ lawyers who took part in some of those cases.

And you've seen this I think split. Some law firms who are worried that they could lose big business contracts because the president has withdrawn security clearances. A lot of these law firms have a lot of work with the government, and they need those clearances to be able to pursue these cases.

Some of those law firms -- law firms have capitulated, and they have decided that they'll work with the administration. They've donated hundreds of hours of free legal work for the administration.

And then you've seen some prestigious law firms act in a way like Harvard University. They're pushing back. They're arguing their raison d'etre to stand up to government power and they have refused to accept Trump's conditions on diversity, equity, and inclusion among them. And they're suing the Trump administration for abuses of power.

[05:45:05]

So you're seeing I think this split now developing between entities which submit to the president's pressure and that tends to lead to more pressure from the administration, and those that are pushing back. You're seeing this across --

SOLOMON: Yeah.

COLLINSON: -- the media as well at the same time as the Trump administration is defying court orders in many cases or at least pushing close to that line on issues like immigration.

SOLOMON: Yeah. We've seen him go after the Associated Press but lose that suit in court. We've seen him go after CBS, including most recently after "60 MINUTES" this weekend.

Stephen, talk to me a little bit about as you just pointed out we have seen this sort of I think diverging response. We've seen some law firms, as you pointed out, agree to millions of dollars of pro bono work for interests that align with the president. We've seen some universities seem to comply with some of these recommendations.

But the results of these clashes have already appeared to have a -- have a chilling effect, right? It's not just the effect but it's sort of what it signals to others who might sort of be kind of waiting in the wings.

To that end, how significant is it when you have a law firm that pushes back? When you have an Associated Press that pushes back? When you have a Harvard that pushes back? And is that a sign of perhaps more of a pushback?

COLLINSON: I think there have to be two things happening for democracy to experience a slippage.

First of all, you have to have a president who doesn't recognize limits on his power who is prepared to push across multiple areas against constraints on presidential power. And there aren't that many given the fact that Republicans control Congress. That's where you'd normally see pushback. And the other thing you have to have is for institutions that come under scrutiny from the administration to not push back -- to cede to pressure.

So in some senses some of these law firms and colleges are enabling the Trump administration's attempt to expand presidential power past the limits where many of us believe they can go. The fact there is pushback I think is a sign that at least in the United States there's going to be resistance however slowly it takes to develop against this kind of presidential power grabs.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

COLLINSON: But I think the courts are also very important in this.

SOLOMON: Yeah, the courts, but also one thing that's been really interesting to watch is all of these town halls. I mean, as you rightly point out -- I mean, Republicans control Congress but we're seeing all of these town halls where at least from what we can see there are clearly some very upset people even with Republicans.

Stephen Collinson, appreciate you. Thank you.

All right. Still to come, what film legend Gene Hackman's wife had been searching on the internet just days before their death. That and more straight ahead.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:52:38]

SOLOMON: Welcome back. I'm Rahel Solomon. And here are some of the stories we are watching today.

Two U.S. service members were killed and another is in serious condition after a vehicle accident in New Mexico near the southern border. The cause is under investigation. U.S. Northern Command says that the service members were among the thousands deployed as part of the Trump administration's efforts to tighten border security.

A U.S. federal judge is demanding that the Trump administration provide evidence that they are complying with her order to facilitate that return of a man wrongly deported to El Salvador. The judge says that each day Kilmar Abrego Garcia remains in the country's CECOT mega-prison is "a day of irreparable harm."

And two mountain climbers have set a new speed record in the Swiss Alps. A Swiss climber and his Austrian partner completed the hike up Switzerland's world famous three peaks in only 15 hours and 30 minutes. They shattered the old record of 25 hours which was set back in 2004.

All right, this just in. Britian's Supreme Court has ruled that the legal definition of "woman" does not include trans women. It's a landmark decision that could have sweeping consequences for how equality laws are applied across the U.K.

The case was brought by a group of Scottish campaigners who argued that trans women with gender recognition certificates should not be protected as females under the country's Equality Act.

And now the high court ruling is unanimous. When it comes to equality legislation those rules only apply based on a person's biological sex.

Authorities are releasing new details on the death of actor Gene Hackman and his wife. A report on the last emails, phone calls, and internet searches by Hackman's wife Betsy Arakawa show that she was looking for information on flu-like symptoms.

Investigators say that Arakawa died in February from a rare rodent- borne disease that can lead to flu-like symptoms. Hackman is believed to have died about a week later of heart disease with complications from Alzheimer's. Authorities found their remains on February 26 at their Sante Fe, New Mexico home.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:59:10]

SOLOMON: Welcome back.

Easter came early for some cute critters at a German zoo. Now, the eggs you see here were apparently not made of chocolate, but this mob of meerkats had fun tearing into their Easter eggs anyway. Each egg was filled with mealworms, which zookeepers say is actually a meerkat's favorite meal. In fact, the animals enjoyed the eggs so much that a few of them got their heads stuck. Apparently, zookeepers say they're all OK. They made sure they were fine. But clearly, they enjoyed themselves.

All right, thanks for joining us here on EARLY START. I'm Rahel Solomon live in New York. I will see you tomorrow but, in the meantime, "CNN THIS MORNING" starts right now.