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Pope Francis Dies at Age 88. Aired 5-5:30a ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POLO SANDOVAL, ANCHOR, EARLY START: After he was discharged from the hospital in Rome where he was treated for double pneumonia. And then just yesterday, Pope Francis gave the traditional Easter blessing from the balcony of St. Peter's basilica, addressing a massive crowd of faithful worshipers in what was his highest profile appearance since he left the hospital.

So many people were skeptical, not even sure if he would appear. Well, he also held a brief meeting on Sunday with the U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance, turned out to be the last U.S. dignitary that the pope would meet with. Francis became the first Latin-American pope in 2013, and he was one of the oldest pope's in the church's history.

Throughout his papacy, Pope Francis was a vocal champion for the poor, for migrants, and also for the environment, and also in part of the Vatican statement announcing his passing, Cardinal Kevin Farrell said, quote, "he taught us to live the values of the gospel with fidelity, courage and universal love, especially in favor of the poorest and most marginalized."

Again, the Vatican, announcing the passing of Pope Francis at 88. CNN's Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb, taking a look back at the pope's life and his legacy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JORGE MARIO BERGOGLIO, LATE POPE, CATHOLIC CHURCH: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A simple good evening from the newly-elected Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio from Argentina. The first pope ever from the Americas. His choice of the name Francis, after the saint known for his poverty and love of nature, had never been used before by a pope, set the tone for a pontificate marked by attention to the poor and a simple way of life.

This pope's home would no longer be the historic apartments, but a simple set of rooms in a guest house on the Vatican grounds. Elaborate papal robes and jewelry remained in the closet, as Francis wore only his white cassock, black orthopedic shoes with a simple pectoral cross, and when he needed his glasses fixed, he hopped in a car and went himself to the optician in Rome. A down-to-earth style learned on the streets of Buenos Aires. The one-

time night club bouncer took public transportation and always remained a fan of Argentina's San Lorenzo soccer team. His simple words, too, had a way of getting to the heart of divisive issues.

BERGOGLIO (through translator): If a person is gay and accepts the Lord and has goodwill, well, who am I to judge?

LAMB: It didn't change the Catholic Church's opposition to gay marriage, but convinced many that he was a pope open to change. He was a champion of the environment, issuing an encyclical, the highest papal teaching document, to warn of the dangers of global warming and a throwaway consumer culture in the West that damages our climate and the livelihood of the poor.

BERGOGLIO: The misuse and destruction of the environment are also accompanied by a relentless process of exclusion. In effect, a selfish and boundless thirst for power and material prosperity leads both to the misuse of available natural resources and to the exclusion of the weak.

LAMB: He drove home the point, traveling to the United States, home of gas-guzzling SUVs, in a tiny fiat. Equally at home with the poor and powerful on the lawn of the White House, he made a plea for immigrants.

BERGOGLIO: As the son of an immigrant family, I'm happy to be a guest in this country, which was largely built by such families.

LAMB: And at a time marked by a dramatic refugee crisis in Europe, Francis tirelessly called on governments and people to not close their eyes or their borders. And he walked his talk, bringing back 12 Syrian refugees on his plane following a trip to the Greek island of Lesbos. In the difficult terrain of the holy land, Pope Francis prayed at the wall dividing Palestinian West Bank from Jerusalem and embraced his Jewish friends in front of the wailing wall. The Pope focused much of his attention to those on the peripheries, as he called it. The outsiders excluded from society.

BERGOGLIO: The hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the sick, those in prison.

LAMB: He sought to support the churches on those peripheries and far from Rome. The longest foreign trip of his pontificate saw him travel across southeast Asia and the Pacific, highlighting the importance of this region for the future of the Catholic Church. Going to those on the margins was something Francis himself practiced during many moments of his pontificate, embracing the disabled, washing the feet of prisoners, installing shower rooms for the homeless around the Vatican.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): One of his characteristics, a characteristic of his entire life, was humility. LAMB: A humility that attracted the world, with politicians and stars

lining up to meet him at the Vatican. He was not so popular at times inside the Vatican and among powerful Catholic groups in the United States. There was a backlash from conservatives upset about his insistence the church teaching must develop, along with his biting critiques of clerical culture.

His financial reforms, seeking greater transparency, faced significant difficulties, and the scandal of sex abuse continuing to be the Catholic Church's biggest struggle. In the case of Chile, Francis admitted in a letter that he too was part of the problem when every bishop in the country offered to resign in the wake of sexual abuse scandals there.

Also accused of being part of the problem by his ex-ambassador to the United States, who claimed he told Francis about sexual abuse allegations against former Washington D.C. Cardinal Theodore McCarrick five years before. And Francis allowed him to continue serving.

BERGOGLIO: I will not say one more word on this.

LAMB: Francis eventually defrocked the U.S. cardinal and held an unprecedented global meeting of bishops to address the issue. A Vatican investigation later called into question the claims made by the former ambassador, who was then barred from receiving communion and put into exile by the church after he rejected the authority of the pope and some key Catholic teachings. Nevertheless, questions remained about Francis' handling of the abuse crisis.

JOHN ALLEN, EDITOR, CRUX: There is no doubt that the child sexual abuse scandals are the central stain on his legacy. I mean, over and over again, Pope Francis said the right things. He met with victims. He expressed heartfelt sorrow. He expressed resolve to get this right. But you know, most critics, many victims would say that, that wasn't matched with a policy follow-through.

LAMB: When the coronavirus pandemic hit in 2020, the image of the pope blessing the world from an empty St. Peter's Square became a symbol for that desolate time. Francis urged nations to share their vaccines with poorer countries and vaccinated hundreds of homeless and underprivileged at the Vatican.

The following year, during a historic trip to Iraq, the first pope ever to visit the country, Francis stood on top of the rubble in Mosul, once an ISIS stronghold, and furthered his outreach to the Muslim world by an unprecedented meeting with top Shia Muslim cleric. The reclusive grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani.

From the beginning of the war in Ukraine in 2022, Francis was an outspoken advocate for peace. He avoided outright condemnation of Vladimir Putin, but publicly appealed to the Russian President, begging him to stop for the love of his people, the pope said. Francis spoke several times by phone with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy during 2022, asking him to be open to serious peace proposals before the pair met face-to-face at the Vatican in May of 2023 and October 2024. He made similar appeals for peace during the conflict in the Middle

East, saying that the Israel-Hamas war had descended into terrorism. He insisted that war is always a defeat, and said self-defense, it is not proportional is immoral. Francis most important message was one of fraternity, that we are all brothers and sisters despite our differences. "Take care of the earth and each other", he said, "and don't forget to pray for me."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANDOVAL: And just in the last few moments, U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance also, who just -- had just met with Pope Francis over the weekend, on X, actually issued a statement, I'll read you a portion of that, the Vice President writing, "I just learned of the passing of Pope Francis. My heart goes out to the millions of Christians all over the world who loved him.

I was happy to see him yesterday, though he was obviously very ill. But I'll always remember him for the below homily that he gave in the very early days of COVID. It was really quite beautiful. May God rest his soul." And then he attaches that again. That's the Vice President who had just met with the holy father at the Vatican the day before the confirmation of his death.

Now, let's get more analysis and more reporting now from Elise Allen; she's senior correspondent for "Crux", which covers the Vatican and the Catholic Church. Elise is in Rome, Elise, good morning to you on what is already extremely busy and extremely eventful and shocking morning for Catholics around the world. What are you hearing from those there at the Vatican about the death of Pope Francis?

ELISE ALLEN, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, CRUX: Oh, good morning. I think the word that you said sums it up most aptly. "Shocking". This morning, everyone woke up with the joy of Easter still very much being felt. In Rome, you know, the day after Easter, Pasquetta is still a holiday. Most people spend this day in celebration with their family and their friends.

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So, this was quite shocking for most people here in Rome this morning, especially after, you know, Pope Francis' sort of triumphant outing yesterday. You know, he appeared on the balcony of St. Peter's, gave the traditional noon-time Easter blessing, and it was his first time going out and driving around the crowds, you know. So, you know, even though he was frail, even though he was still obviously sick and struggling, I don't think anybody expected that he was quite at the point of death.

You know, it was seen as sort of a triumphant moment for Pope Francis after his very long hospitalization, just, you know, a month ago. So, the word I think right now is shock. People are in shock. They're still absorbing the news and trying to wrap their heads around, you know, the fact that such a big personality is no longer with us.

SANDOVAL: And not only as a -- as a journalist, but also as a Catholic myself. I have to tell you, I'm struck by just the last few days and what we've seen from Pope Francis. There was so much uncertainty, so many questions about whether or not we would even see him make a public appearance. And then he begins the Easter weekend by visiting that prison, praying with those inmates, however, unable to participate in the traditional washing of the feet, and then makes his way to Easter vigil as well.

And then on Sunday, we see him aboard that popemobile in a very iconic scene. Just walk me through what it's been like the last three days for people there in Rome, from your perspective and what you've seen.

ALLEN: You know, the last two days, obviously, there's always a lot of excitement here, you know, an anticipation for holy week. It's the most sacred week on the Catholic church's calendar. Easter is the most sacred liturgy. So, there was a lot of excitement because, you know, in the days ahead, you know, Pope Francis, after he got out of the hospital, he was discharged on March 23rd after having spent 38 days in the hospital fighting double pneumonia.

And, you know, was under doctor's orders to observe a strict two-month convalescence, you know, a time of rest without going out, without meeting groups. And Pope Francis, as he often, you know, has -- you know, as he often did, you know, throughout his papacy, sort of, you know, took that with a grain of salt.

We started seeing him, you know, up here. You know, his first public appearance after his hospitalization was April 6th. And we've been seeing him, you know, with increased frequency since then. So, there was a lot of anticipation over the last week about, are we going to see the pope or not? You know, and excitement over the fact that it was very much assumed that, you know, for Catholics and for everybody here in Rome, that they would see him on Easter.

So, there was a lot of excitement, a lot of buzz around the papal liturgies. You know, even though they were celebrated by aides, you know, Pope Francis didn't make himself known. He popped out, you know, in the basilica on Saturday prior to the big Easter vigil. He was not able to celebrate that himself, but he made a surprise outing and blessed some pilgrims.

He had a moment of prayer. He was giving candy to children. And there was just a lot of excitement on Easter, too. People knew they were going to see Pope Francis, and I think that's the most comforting thing. People felt comforted because after such a long hospitalization and such a serious ordeal that he had been through, to see him there, you know, as leader of the church, implying that at least in that moment, he was still with us, was something very special. I think it was a very special, you know, celebration for a lot of people, which makes today's news so much more difficult.

SANDOVAL: Yes, so many people likely to see that as a farewell gift, that last appearance. And Elise, you covered the church, you speak to not only the faithful, but to church officials as well, and fully appreciating what will be a long process, a mourning process before we reach conclave. Just from your perspective, what will the church need next as it turns the page and looks for its next leader when that time comes?

ALLEN: Well, that is a big and complicated question. I think that's one that every cardinal is asking themselves in this moment. You know, inevitably the church is mourning right now. But that question inevitably is being asked, it has to be asked, you know, by the cardinals who are going to elect Pope Francis' successor. And I think the overwhelming consensus, you know, it usually comes down to two things.

I mean, it comes down to basically what do you want as individuals? You know, so, everyone's answer to what comes next is going to be a little different. But it basically comes down to the question of, do you want continuity or discontinuity with the papacy that has just ended? Do they have a sense, the cardinals, that things were going in the right direction, that the church was doing well under his leadership, or do they want to shift things and do something a little differently?

And I think that there are going to be mixed reactions to that. Francis was a big personality. He was beloved by many, but he was also quite controversial for many as well. And so, the cardinals are going to have to ask themselves, what went well in this papacy and what didn't, and who's going to be a candidate that's apt to continue some of the things that Francis was loved for?

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You know, his embracing of the poor and the marginalized, you know, his push for justice, and his emphasis on God's mercy, you know, but who can possibly also -- you know, maybe do some damage control for the things that Francis was also controversial for? You know, he faced a lot of questions over, you know, doctrinal obscurity sometimes.

People didn't think he was clear enough when it came down on that. You know, his efforts to reform and the church's pastoral approach often times came under scrutiny. And so, you're going to -- you know, the cardinals are going to have to ask themselves who is going to be able to, you know, perhaps smooth over the wrinkles that were created by Francis with some of, you know, his decisions, but also continue the legacy that, you know, the church and the world responded so positively to.

So, it's not an easy task. It is something I imagine every single one of them are going to be thinking very carefully about over the next ten days or so before we get into discussion about a conclave.

SANDOVAL: Those are all critical questions that no doubt that these cardinals have been asking themselves, I'm sure, not only given the conversations and the talk about possible resignation, but certainly because of the holy father's very delicate health state. Elise Allen, thank you so much for your reporting, we'll let you go on what is undoubtedly a critical day for you there in Rome, and then at the Vatican as well. Thank you.

ALLEN: Thank you. Thank you. SANDOVAL: And CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb joins us now

live with more. He's outside of St. Peter's Square. Christopher, you've been there speaking to the faithful. What are some of the -- what are some of the immediate reaction you're getting from people there?

LAMB: Well, the reaction to the death of Pope Francis is coming in. It's taking time, I think, for people to process this news. There's obviously a lot of sadness because Pope Francis was an enormously popular pontiff. He was the people's pope who connected with so many different types of groups of individuals, particularly the poorest, the refugees, migrants, those on the margins of society.

And just yesterday, on Sunday -- Easter Sunday, he was out in the square of St. Peter's for the last time on the popemobile, greeting people, and clearly then, it was obvious that people loved this pope. He delighted the crowds with his decision to come out to see them. It was obviously very difficult for Francis yesterday because he didn't seem well.

He wasn't engaged in the normal way that he has been when we've seen him out in the crowds in previous times. But it was the mark of this pope that he wanted to serve right until the end. There were some who speculated that Francis might resign when he was hospitalized for that 38-day period with double pneumonia.

People thought he might decide to step down. That clearly wasn't his thinking. He wanted to go with his boots on, and he was even over the Easter weekend trying to participate in services as best he could. He obviously couldn't lead those services, but he came out onto the balcony of St. Peter's basilica for that one last time, the same balcony that he appeared for the first time when he was elected as pope.

The first pope to call himself after Saint Francis of Assisi; the saint who of course, devoted himself to poverty, to care for creation, for dialogue with other faiths. All of these things were really important to Pope Francis. He took that inspiration from Saint Francis of Assisi. He was also an outsider pope. He was the first pope in over 100 years to never have lived or studied in Rome before his election.

That meant he was something of a disrupter. He shook up the church establishment. He refused to be scripted by the Vatican bureaucracy. He was his own man, and he was very clear that the church, the Catholic church, needed to focus on the essentials of the Christian message that is serving the poorest. He said he wanted a church for the poor.

A poor church for the poor. Going out to the margins, solidarity with migrants. He wanted to dialogue with other faiths. He built bridges with other religions, particularly those from the Muslim world. He had a sort of an unprecedented collaboration with the grand imam of Al- Azhar, and he also had a meeting with the grand Ayatollah Al-Sistani in Iraq.

[05:20:00] So, the Shia and Sunni leaders he met and got to know from the Muslim

world. He was a tireless advocate for peace, repeatedly calling for peace in Ukraine and the Middle East. He tried to do his best to mediate in those conflicts. He really was a pope who gave everything during his just over 12-year pontificate. He also sought to institute reforms in the Catholic Church, some of them not always received well.

He wanted a church, particularly a church leadership that was doing more to listen to ordinary Catholics, that was less disconnected from the needs of the people in the pews. And he also made some very important and significant steps when it came to welcoming gay Catholics, LGBTQ-plus Catholics.

He was the pope who famously said, who am I to judge when it came to gay priests? And he offered blessings for same-sex couples. Now, people didn't like that in the Catholic Church. They found that disturbing and disruptive. But Francis realized, and he saw the need to communicate a message to not just those in the church, but to those outside of the church.

Francis had a strong moral standing, not just among Catholics, but amongst all Christians -- all different groups of Christians and different religious faiths. So, Francis is a pope who has profoundly shaped the Catholic Church. He is also someone who has reformed the papacy. I mentioned Saint Francis of Assisi and the importance of poverty.

Francis took the decision not to live in the Apostolic palace behind me here in St. Peter's, but to go and live in a guesthouse at the Santa Martha, which is where the news of his death was announced this morning. He decided to live in a more simple way, but also, he lived in the Santa Martha guesthouse because it gave him access to people.

The Santa Martha was a place where bishops and cardinals, other people would come through to stay on when they were coming to Rome for church business. He got a chance to meet people. There was a communal dining room in the Santa Martha where the pope was seen having his meals, so people could certainly in the early days, put down their tray with their food and sit next to the pope and talk to him.

There was an accessibility to Francis that we haven't seen before. Now, I met the pope on a number of occasions. I traveled with him several times, and I was always struck by how much of a good sense of humor he had. He would frequently joke with journalists and reporters how comfortable he was in his own skin, and how much of a kind of clear-eyed leader he was of the church.

He wasn't looking to simply appease and please those at the top level of the church, but to try and take the message of the church of Christianity out to as many people as possible. He was very much an evangelizing pope. So really, I think people here in St. Peter's Square, as they come to terms with this news, will feel a sense of profound sadness for a people's pope, who was hugely popular and very much loved.

SANDOVAL: "A beacon of compassion, humility and spiritual courage". Those are the words from the Indian Prime Minister for Pope Francis, a tribute for the holy father, Christopher Lamb, thank you very much, as you report there from the very same square where Pope Francis was just yesterday before his death was confirmed this morning.

And we're joined now by Kaya Burgess, he's a religious affairs correspondent for "The Times", joining us live now from London. Curious if you could tell us what you're hearing from your sources, certainly, given his fragile state. Not surprising. But what do we know about the circumstances of the holy father's death?

KAYA BURGESS, RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, THE TIMES: Well, I mean, very little at the moment beyond what was said this morning. We know that obviously he's been ill for a long time, and we also know that he was able to make appearances over Easter weekend. And so, you know, he managed to sort of hold on, I suppose, for Easter, which is clearly the central date in the Christian calendar.

We still haven't actually heard the exact circumstances of exactly sort of how he passed away, what the sort of final cause of death was at the moment. But I'm sure that will come.

SANDOVAL: What do we know about what we can expect in the coming days especially from Vatican officials? Obviously, this is going to start a -- this triggers a millennia's old process and tradition.

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BURGESS: Well, the first step, of course, will be preparing for the funeral which will -- which will take place, you know, fairly soon and give a chance for there to be some sort of lying in state for people to probably pass by and sort of see the pope. But also, the preparations will be going on to get a huge number of cardinals gathered from around the world.

All those under the age of 80 are eligible to vote in the conclave, and so, the preparations will start taking place in more of a matter of kind of weeks, that will be, to gather them in the Sistine Chapel for the -- for the debates and for the vote, which will take place behind closed doors. From the outside, all we see of that, of course, is puffs of smoke from the chimney, which tell us whether a new pope has or has not been named.

But the Camerlengo, who is former Bishop of Dallas, Cardinal Kevin Farrell, who was born in Dublin, he was the man who announced the pope's death this morning. And it's his job now to undertake the preparations for, and then the management of the conclave to elect a successor.

SANDOVAL: A monumental task ahead. Kaya, finally, if you could just speak to the timing of all of this, it is a --

BURGESS: Yes --

SANDOVAL: And you touched on it briefly, just the remarkable nature of the timing that he went out working. And he made very clear here that he did not want to stop up until the very end. His doctors had recommended that he takes two months time to rest, and to at least, limit those public appearances. And he did, but nonetheless, he was determined so much so, that as we see these pictures, as you and I speak, seeing him aboard that popemobile.

How does that speak to his determination to essentially work until the very end, to serve until the very end, I should say?

BURGESS: Well, it's a good question, because when Pope Benedict stepped down, people wondered whether that might set a precedent, in that popes have traditionally worked until they pass away in the job, and that Francis had maybe hinted earlier on in his papacy that perhaps if he -- if he got to a stage where his health was failing him and he didn't feel able to kind of carry out the duties of pope, that perhaps he too might follow and it might become a new -- a new standard even, potentially.

But clearly, in the last few years, when his health has been failing, he's had to miss various services, his breathing issues have meant he's had to ask other people to read his sermons or speeches for him in various situations. He has shown no sign. And it's clear he has felt that the job is something that he wants to continue until the very end.

Perhaps he wants to do more to secure his legacy. It's been a very busy time, I think he's wanted to push through some of his reforms in the church to do with, you know, having synods to govern things, and perhaps he was thinking about the future as well. And his legacy, of course, will -- as to what his legacy will be, that will be cemented to a degree by who follows him.

Will it be someone like-minded who will carry on his sort of attitude and his direction, or someone who will want to reverse it? And so, he's been appointing sort of like-minded people to join the college of cardinals. So, he obviously just felt like he -- his work was ongoing, and it wasn't something he wanted to give up at any point and keep on going for as long as he could.

SANDOVAL: Now, you posed some very important questions, but for now, it's about mourning, certainly. But nonetheless, those questions that you raise, I'm sure that those cardinals have been at least asking themselves some of that because of what had been Pope Francis' health.

Thank you so much for your time, Kaya, I really appreciate you, religious affairs correspondent for "The Times". Stay with us, much more breaking news after the break as we continue to follow developments out of the Vatican, where officials have confirmed the death of Pope Francis at 88.

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