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Early Start with Rahel Solomon

Funeral For Pope Francis Will Be Held On Saturday; Senior Church Leaders To Pick Next Pope During Conclave; Hegseth Shares U.S. Military Plans In Second Signal Chat. Aired 5:30-6a ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 05:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:30:00]

ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: We continue here to mourn the death of Pope Francis who passed away on Monday at age 88.

I want to take you to Paris now where CNN's Jim Bittermann joins us now. Jim has covered five popes and is now outside the Notre Dame. And Jim, you've covered five popes. You're still like you're 32. I don't know how you do it but give us some of your insight. I know the Notre Dame held a tribute mass yesterday.

What have you -- what have you been hearing from those there at the Notre Dame? How will people be remembering -- how will people be remembering Pope Francis this morning?

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think very fondly, Isa. In fact, I mean, we've talked to a number of people here.

A lot of the people who come here, of course, are just tourists because the renovated Notre Dame is something everybody wants to see. It's on the tourists' agenda. And while there are crowds here today probably a little larger than normal it is a scene that we've seen every day here since the church was reopened again. So, in fact, it's a -- it's kind of a combination thing going on.

And I actually heard one woman say that she did not know about the pope being -- the pope's death, so it's not like everybody knows about the pope's death like we do.

But in any case, I would say there's a certain fondness for -- that drew people into a vigil last night, as you mentioned. There was a rosary service that included the recognition of Mary Magdalene which, of course, Pope Francis was very attached to the concept of Mariology and he -- it's one of the reasons he's being buried in Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome because that's a church that's dedicated to Mary Magdalene.

So it is -- it's something that's very close to everybody here that will be almost daily masses here that will recognize the pope's passing. And churches around the world I should say because, in fact, it's -- it is something that has touched the 1.4 billion Catholics and something that they would like to at least share in fellowship with other Catholics. It brings them here in any case -- Isa.

SOARES: Indeed. Jim Bittermann for us in Paris. Thank you very much.

And, you know, we have had confirmation in the last hours that the funeral will be held on Saturday -- held outdoors. We also know that President Zelenskyy from Ukraine and the U.S. president will also be joining, as well as President Macron.

And in the coming days the most senior figures in the Catholic Church will make their way to the Vatican to prepare for the conclave. That is a secretive process steeped in tradition by which a new pope will be chosen.

Our Nick Watt explains how it all works for you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): A new pope to lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics will be chosen by just around 130 cardinals in a mysterious many centuries-old rite, the conclave -- conclave -- "with key."

REV. THOMAS REESE, S.J., AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": They're locked in the Vatican and all their phones are taken away. They're not allowed to communicate with the outside world until they elect a pope.

WATT (voiceover): Every cardinal under the age of 80 is summoned to Rome for this and must swear an oath of secrecy punishable by excommunication.

REESE: It's a secret ballot. The cardinals don't even know who voted for whom.

WATT (voiceover): Father Reese says the movie "Conclave" got it almost right --

STANLEY TUCCI, ACTOR, "CONCLAVE": You have to commit to a side.

WATT (voiceover): -- except a secretly elected cardinal would never be allowed in, and the cardinals' robes were slightly the wrong color.

REESE: I think Hollywood got it better than the Catholic Church. I like the deeper red.

WATT (voiceover): By day the cardinals will sit in silence and prayer in Sistine Chapel under Michaelangelo's magnificent ceiling. Two votes in the morning; two in the afternoon until one candidate wins two- thirds of the ballots.

By night they stay in a boarding house nearby where the horse trading happens late into the evening.

REESE: Different cardinals will go around pushing for the candidate that they would like to see become pope. Your friends have to do that for you. You cannot do that yourself. That would indicate a level of pride that would be unacceptable in a pope. WATT (voiceover): The pope just has to be male and Catholic but since 1389, the cardinals have always elected one of their own.

After every inconclusive round of votes the smoke from the chapel chimney is black. Ballots are burned with some chemicals thrown in to create the color. When a new pope is chosen the smoke is white.

At the last conclave there was a problem.

REESE: The monsignor in charge of the stove didn't follow the directions and the smoke came out gray and everybody in St. Peter's Square was scratching their heads.

WATT (voiceover): So they rang the biggest bell in the square as well.

REESE: And as soon as you see it swinging you know it's over.

WATT (voiceover): The new pope chooses a name and is ushered to the 'Rooms of Tears.'

REESE: And in that room they will have three sets of papal garments -- the white cassock that the pope wears -- one small, one medium, and one large.

[05:35:05]

WATT (voiceover): For the new pope to wear when he walks out onto that famous balcony in St. Peter's Square.

WATT: So the conclave will convene in just a little over two weeks from now. How long they'll take -- well, that's an open question. You know, back in the 1200s they once took nearly three years. That was to elect Pope Gregory X. In recent years it's more likely two or three days. That's kind of become the norm.

Now, the fact that there's no clear frontrunner -- that might add a little time. Something that might take away a little time is 80 percent of these electors -- these cardinals -- were appointed by Pope Francis so there's a decent chance they might be on a similar page.

And remember, these cardinals are not just choosing the next pope; they're essentially also choosing the direction that the church is going to take over the next few years.

Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:40:40]

RAHEL SOLOMON, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. I'm Rahel Solomon, and here are some of the stories we are watching for you this morning.

One day after Pope Francis died of a stroke and heart failure cardinals have set a funeral date. It will be held Saturday at 10:00 a.m. local time. That's 4:00 a.m. Eastern. The Vatican has released these images of the pontiff lying in the casket and says that his coffin will be transferred to St. Peter's Basilica on Wednesday.

U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi have negotiated a roadmap towards a trade agreement between the two countries and a way for India to potentially avoid massive U.S. tariffs. The White House boasts significant progress on the partnership between the two nations.

U.S. pharmacy chain Walgreens has agreed to pay up to $350 million in the settlement with the Justice Department. The company is accused of illegally filling millions of prescriptions for opioids and other controlled substances between 2012 and 2023.

U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is Facing Backlash over now a second Signal chat scandal. This time he's accused of sharing military plans in a group message with members of his family.

But on Monday, President Trump defended Hegseth denying reports of dysfunction at the Pentagon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Ask the Houthis how much dysfunction they have. There's none. Pete's doing a great job. Everybody's happy with him. We have the highest recruitment numbers I think we've have in 28 years. Uh, no, he's doing a great job.

It's just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that what he's doing. So you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOLOMON: CNN's Natasha Bertrand has more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Sources tell us that Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth shared details about the U.S.' military operation against the Houthis in a second Signal chat last month -- this one on his personal phone -- and that included his wife, lawyer, and his brother.

The chat included over a dozen people and was set up during the confirmation process as a way for him to strategize with some of his closest advisers, but he continued to use it after he was confirmed to discuss things related to the military.

Hegseth's lawyer and his brother both have jobs at DOD now, but his wife does not, and it's not clear whether she has a security clearance.

There is also already an inspector general review ongoing into Hegseth's use of Signal and sources told CNN over the weekend that Hegseth has become increasingly concerned about that probe in recent weeks. But at least publicly, Hegseth is projecting confidence. He told reporters on Monday that the leaks were coming from "disgruntled former employees."

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: See, this is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. It's not going to work with me.

BERTRAND: News of the second Signal chat broke around the same time that Hegseth's former top spokesperson John Ullyot wrote a scathing op-ed for Politico saying that the Pentagon under Hegseth is in "total chaos." Ullyot wrote that, "It's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon. From leaks of sensitive operations plans to mass firings, the dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president who deserves better from his senior leadership. It's hard to see Defense Secretary Hegseth remaining in his role for much longer."

Ullyot's reference there to mass firings has to do with Hegseth's decision to fire three senior Pentagon officials last week, including two of his closest longtime advisers, Dan Caldwell and Darin Selnick. We were told that the firings came after weeks of infighting between Hegseth's aides, including his chief of staff, and press leaks that rattled Hegseth so much that at one point he actually demanded an FBI investigation. His aides advised against that because they argued it might only invite further scrutiny at a time when he's already under investigation for his use of Signal.

Natasha Bertrand, CNN, in Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SOLOMON: Still to come, more on the death of Pope Francis. We will take you back to Rome for a look at what comes next for the Catholic Church when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL)

[05:49:13]

SOLOMON: Joining me now is Philip Shenon, a former investigative reporter and author of "Jesus Wept: Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church."

And Isa, I believe you're actually going to pick this up as you remain and continue our coverage live from Rome as mourners continue to gather for the death of Pope Francis.

SOARES: Thank you very much, Rahel.

That's right. Cardinals have been meeting today to try and go through the logistics, really, of what we're likely to see in the coming days. As we have been telling our viewers in the last few hours the pope's funeral will be held on Saturday morning.

[05:50:00]

And in the next 24 hours -- in less than 24 hours, in fact, the pope's body will be transferred from where he's been lying now to a place where he -- outside where he'll be able -- people will be able to pay their respects. So this is something that we have been covering here this morning.

And let me get the view though this hour from Philip Shenon, a former investigative reporter and author of "Jesus Wept: Seven Popes and the Battle for the Soul of the Catholic Church."

Let me get your thoughts. First of all, I mean, you've covered seven popes in so much detail with your latest book. How do you think Pope Francis will be remembered? How does he compare? How does he stack up?

PHILIP SHENON, FORMER INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, AUTHOR, "JESUS WEPT: SEVEN POPES AND THE BATTLE FOR THE SOUL OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH": I think he really changed the tone of the Vatican dramatically from his immediate predecessors. It was much more a message of mercy and tolerance. It -- he sort of got the Vatican out of the business of searching for heresy, searching for dissidence.

Whether or not his changes and whether or not his reforms will outlast him, that's still to be determined though it seems quite likely that at the next conclave the cardinals will elect a successor who will have much in common with the -- with Francis' agenda.

SOARES: Speak to what he has achieved. So much of what I've been hearing this morning has been about the kind of leader he was -- an exemplar of the Catholic Church in his simplicity, in his humility, in his compassion. But that's the message he portrayed.

What about in terms of reforms? What was he actually able to achieve?

SHENON: Well, that's -- I think that's in question. He -- as I say, he promoted this message of tolerance and mercy, but he made very few changes in fundamental church doctrine, which means that a successor could, if he wished, sort of reverse everything Francis did with a snap of his fingers.

SOARES: Where do you think then the church goes now because the next few days whilst we are mourning Pope Francis is not just about the next pope but also the direction this church will take? Do you think along those lines that you were just pointing out -- do you think we're going to see a continuation of what Pope Francis stood for in the next pope?

SHENON: Well, you see a lot of speculation on the part of conservative Catholics that --

SOARES: Yeah.

SHENON: -- the next pope will reverse Francis' agenda.

You have to keep in mind that Francis appointed 80 percent of the cardinals who will choose is successor. And as I say, it seems hard to imagine that these men who were honored by Francis with membership in the College of Cardinals would find a successor who would reverse course on this message of tolerance and mercy that Francis promoted.

SOARES: And we're looking -- as you're talking Philip, we're seeing some of the major cardinals. Can I ask for that to be brought up again? And some of the ones that I've been hearing in more detail -- Matteo Zuppi of Bologna, but also Peitro Parolin being one of the other ones that's being considered. Both are from Italy. I think Parolin and Zuppi very much along the lines of the teachings of the pope.

But what about looking outside of that to someone from Asia-Pacific? Are we not there yet?

SHENON: We might be. I mean, there's a -- there's a cardinal from the Philippines who is considered a frontrunner. But in truth there really isn't a frontrunner unlike other modern conclaves. There really isn't a clear frontrunner in this conclave. And I think that perhaps the most obvious choice would be Cardinal Parolin, who is this moderate who was at Francis' side for almost his entire papacy as Secretary of State. But again, at this point we really have no clear understanding of who the next pope will be.

SOARES: And I'm just -- you know, I'm just looking down because I was looking at the reviews of your latest book, and you talk about really incredibly insightful that looks at the portrait of a complex hierarchical and also secretive institution as it grappled with the modernizing world. You know, so many people would have seen the movie "Conclave" and all the machinations and the political -- you know, the politicking behind the scenes.

How true is that, and is that something that you discovered that has evolved over the years, Philip?

SHENON: Well, we've got 2,000 years of tradition here, but the film actually captured the logistics -- the ceremony of the conclave quite well.

And it's interesting. The pope really is sort of an absolute monarch. Really, almost a dictator in terms of his powers. But he is elected through a democratic process. The conclave is very much like a political convention and these cardinals will debate and argue over who the next people should be in a way that I think would resemble a political convention that most Americans would recognize.

[05:55:00]

SOARES: And I think he's named something like 80 cardinals, so it will be interesting to see how -- which way the vote will go.

Philip Shenon, I really appreciate you taking time to speak to us. Thank you, Philip.

SHENON: Thank you.

SOARES: And we'll be back with much more -- you're very welcome -- on the pope's legacy from Rome after this very short break. Do stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL)

SOLOMON: Welcome back.

We want to take you back to live pictures of St. Peter's Square as mourners continue to gather one day after the death of Pope Francis.

The Vatican says that the pope's coffin will be transferred to St. Peter's Basilica on Wednesday morning and the funeral will be held at 10:00 a.m. local time on Saturday. That's about 4:00 a.m. their time -- or 4:00 a.m. our time rather.