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Early Start with Rahel Solomon

Pope Francis Lying In State At St. Peter's Basilica. Aired 5- 5:30a ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:01:20]

ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and a very warm welcome to our viewers joining us from around the world and the United States. I'm Isa Soares, live from Rome with our special coverage.

Of course, we see the pope be -- the coffin being moved to St. Peter's Basilica. It's just got 11:00. Pope Francis has -- is now lying in state at St. Peter's Basilica at the Vatican. His coffin very busy, as you can see here in Rome, with the noise, pardon for that.

But his coffin was carried, as we saw in our special coverage. If you've just been watching us inside just a little while ago, after what was a solemn ceremonial procession, of course, from where the pope was living, Casa Santa Marta and making its way, of course, inside the basilica. The cardinals received really the first opportunity to pay their respects at the pope's casket. As you can see there. And the public getting their chance to do the same.

As of right now, the doors have opened as in the last minute we have seen huge crowds gathering from the very early hours, I should say, in St. Peter's square, even as his casket was passing, we saw applause. And it's just -- was truly beautiful to see that deep gratitude, of course, from so many. You are looking at live -- at these live images. Correct me if I'm wrong.

These, I believe, are live images as we see so many already coming in to St. Peter's Basilica to pay their respects, and the basilica doors will remain open for most of the next three days, so that the public can go and say their goodbye and honor really, the pope, a pope, as so many have told me yesterday, as a pope or the people. Ahead of his funeral that will take place on Saturday.

And Pope Francis re believed one should not hide death. This is something that, you know, the Anderson Cooper and I were talking about earlier should not hide death, decay or grief. You know, in the preface of a book set to come out later this week. And we were talking about this earlier, he actually wrote death is not the end of everything, but the beginning of something. He called it a new beginning because he said, we will experience something that we have never fully experienced. And that is eternity.

And let's -- I want to expand on that a bit more. Joining me now is Elise Allen, who's a CNN Vatican analyst.

And this is something, Elise, that, you know, you and I have been speaking about with Anderson as well. And it's just not those words incredibly moving, but also the way he lived his life in especially, you know, when he was in hospital that frailty, the openness and allowing even, you know, the nurse to speak -- to speak openly to the media about what he was going through, seeing a pope in a wheelchair.

I don't think I've ever seen a pope in a wheelchair. I think he wanted to show himself as an ordinary pope with frailties. That was so Francis, wasn't it, in so many ways?

ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: It really was. You're absolutely right. He said, you know, Francis did not want to hide that from the world. He wanted to embrace that frailty.

I think part of him at the beginning, it was hard, you know, he had said in an interview once that, you know, he had been stubborn and didn't want to use the wheelchair at the beginning, you know, but realized that he had to accept his own limits.

And I think, especially in the last 18 months of his papacy, those limits became very real for him.

[05:05:03]

And we saw him embracing them in ways that maybe he hadn't at the beginning. I think it was a journey for him as well, and his own journey in learning how to cope, with illness, with physical limitations, with the various ailments that he had and that continued to afflict him, was an example for the church, you know and in previous popes have had this.

Well, John Paul had, of course, his long illness with Parkinsons. That sent a similar message. He couldn't help it. It was a debilitating illness that he also was living in the public eye, you know, and Francis chose to do that himself. He didn't want to hide.

And that's part of, as you said, what made him the ordinary man, you know, that was so close and so accessible to people that allowed people to feel like he was so close to their own realities.

SOARES: And it is incredibly poignant, too, Elise. And seeing him. The timing of his death is crucial. Coming easter, Easter Monday, key date on the Catholic Christian calendar, I should say. It's also jubilee year.

And seeing him on that balcony in that wheelchair, that moment for him, that might have been incredibly poignant for Pope Francis.

ALLEN: I think it was. I think in many ways he got through his hospitalization so he could have that moment. You know, I think he was very determined. He was a very determined man in many ways.

He was notoriously stubborn. And this was, you know, it helped him and, you know, it frustrated some of his collaborators at times. But he really wanted to make it to Easter, you know.

And this, of course, is the jubilee. Pope Francis, you know, is only the second pope in history to pass away during a jubilee year. The last one was in 1700, Innocent the 12th.

So, it is a historic moment that the church is living, and he wanted to make it to easter, which is the celebration of ultimately Christian hope. And this is the jubilee of hope, you know? So I think for him having that moment to celebrate, you know, the Christian belief in life after death, Christs resurrection from the dead. And then a day later to be able to, you know, share in that himself. I think there's something very poetic about that, especially in the context of this jubilee.

SOARES: And, you know, you were with us as we were watching the procession and as we heard, of course, from the camerlengo and we heard the hymns and the solemn, the incredibly solemn prayers, what did you take away? What did you take away from what we saw?

ALLEN: What I took away, I think, I think the most significant thing was that procession, the act of that procession, you know, and it's -- you know, Francis always talked about the church being on a journey and Christians being on a journey. And in a sense, that was his, his journey, you know, his journey to the people in a sense, because now people are there. He's there where the people can come, they can meet him.

It was very simple again, like the way that he lived his life, the way that he wanted to be remembered, you know?

SOARES: And we haven't seen anything like this, have we? I mean, because he obviously was staying at -- we saw his body lying in rest at Casa Santa Marta, which he didn't want to. He wanted to break away with all the opulence and the traditions that came before him. So that procession was so unique in so many ways, but also being carried by those who knew that he worked with, that he was closest to.

ALLEN: I think that was hugely symbolic, you know and Francis, you know, as the pope, you know, papal figures, their job is to carry the church, you know, and I think for his closest collaborators to be able to carry him, you know, its an extreme act of, of symbolism and of love, you know, for their pastor, you know?

And I can't help thinking if I were in that position, how I would be living that, you know, if I were one of them, you know, the very act of carrying the vicar of Christ, you know, and to be able to place him there before the people, that's something that is very unique. And again, Francis, you know, he talks about that accessibility to the people, you know, wanting the blessing from the people himself, allowing the people to carry him.

He's so often asked for their prayers. He sought their support as much as he tried to support them. And he saw it as a reciprocal thing. And this was yet another example of that.

SOARES: Elise, really appreciate you staying on. Thank you very much indeed.

We are going to take a short break. We're back live from Rome in just a moment. Do stay right here. You are watching EARLY START.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:14:18]

SOARES: It's 13 minutes or so past 11:00 here in Vatican City, and we have seen are seeing, as you can see, there live images of Pope Francis lying in state at St. Peter's Basilica after we saw his coffin, his casket and being transferred from his residence, Santa Marta. The chapel Santa Marta to St. Peter's Basilica.

In the last few hours, we saw those closest to him cardinals, bishops, and those even who worked with pay their final respects. Now, it's open to the public. A moment for those who -- who want to take a time out of their day to pay their final respects to Pope Francis.

The doors open the last 14 minutes will be open throughout the day, and he will be lying in state until Saturday, when his funeral, of course, will take place.

Let me get the view of Katie McGrady, CNN Vatican analyst and host of "The Katie McGrady Show" on Sirius FM's The Catholic Channel.

The channel -- and pardon me for the noise. Its very busy, as you can imagine here in the Vatican. The channel's operated by the archdiocese of New York.

Katie, I'm hoping you can hear me. Appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. Great to see you once again.

I'm -- I'm assuming you saw what was an incredibly moving procession. Just what did you take away? I was incredibly moved by the fact, by the procession itself, by the fact that those who knew him carry them on their shoulders. Just your takeaways, Katie.

KATIE MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: It's truly one of the great ministries of the Holy Father to show us the end. I think in a world that has death that's very sanitized and very distant from us, to be able to come into these moments where we watched him ale since February. And to be quite honest, we've been watching Pope Francis slowly decline for about the past year or so.

And so, now, here we are in these moments, also watching his -- his final moments with us on this earth. And there were even I was deeply moved by because I'm living on Rome time here in Louisiana. So I've been up for a while.

There were spontaneous moments of applause as his body was being brought into St. Peter's Basilica, and it wasn't rowdy clapping. It wasn't raucous cheers. It was the people spontaneously moved to say thank you.

And so, I find it to be incredibly beautiful that we are accompanying him in these final moments. I was struck by some of the final words he spoke were, thank you for bringing me to the square. He spoke this to his nurse on Sunday, and I do think there was a small part of him that maybe knew I'm going to be going through that square again, dead, and I want to go through it one more time alive.

And so, to have that on Sunday and now this on Wednesday. It's been a very dramatic few days. And now, we get to enter into this time of saying goodbye. The whole thing is incredibly moving.

SOARES: Yeah.

So much gratitude. I think you really hit the nail on the head there. This is what I have been feeling and hearing. So, so many here. And you know, he was a pope for so many. Even if you weren't Catholic, even if you weren't Christian. He really resonated in what he did.

Even if he didn't change, you know, if he just cracked the door open in some ways. But he resonated, Katie, with so many.

Give me a sense of what you have been hearing from your listeners. How are they remembering him? Because, you know, it is incredibly solemn, a moment of silence, no doubt, but also a celebration of his life and what his legacy is.

MCGRADY: We had a woman call into my show yesterday, and on the Catholic Channel. We've been taking calls throughout the week. What are your memories of Pope Francis? Because so many people travel to Rome, or they have seen him on one of the 47 trips he took around the world to these various places.

And a lady called in and shared her memory of getting to go to mass with him at the Casa Santa Marta and that very chapel that he was lying in state in just yesterday. And she spoke about how anytime you were in his presence. And my boss, Cardinal Dolan, has talked about this, he had kind of a radar for just being able to focus on you, and whether you ever got the chance to meet him in person or not. I think that was evident.

And I think that's why so much of the world was so struck by his ministry, because he would look at you in the eye. He would share that moment with you and say, I see you and you see me. And then, of course, his famous "pray for me", his consistent request for people to pray for him up until the end.

And so, whether you're Catholic or not, his role in the world as a moral leader, as someone who spoke for peace, but also that's a guy that would want to spend time with me and I would want to spend time with him, was incredibly appealing to folks and I think evangelistic. The pope's job is to show the world the teachings of the church, and a lot of ways, Francis was able to do that first. I think through that, that charm and through that presence and then draw people into and were seeing it now, the majesty and the beauty of Catholicism.

So many people are going to walk into St. Peter's Basilica over the next three days, and they're going to pass by treasures of the church. They're going to pass by the bodies of other popes, and they're not on tour, and they're not really, I guess, going to get to soak it in the same way that you would on a normal day. But they're in there, brought into this church to go pay respects to this man.

[05:20:01]

And I think that is one of the beautiful things about his papacy. He was drawing people into this mystery through his presence.

SOARES: He was so natural in so many ways, isn't it, Katie? I remember someone said, you know, speaking to the un head of refugees, and he was saying to me, you know, that his greatest strength was speaking truth. He was speaking of having that political courage.

One of the taxi drivers here in Rome was saying to me, what I loved about him is that he spoke a language we understood. And I think that explains why we perhaps are going to be seeing large crowds here. I think one of the Corriere della Sera, the Italian newspaper, saying 200,000 people expected to come to pay their respects, but also the timing of his death. Katie on the Christian calendar, its also jubilee year. That is quite poignant, too.

MCGRADY: It certainly is. There's so many people already headed to Rome. It was Easter week. There was supposed to be a canonization on Sunday.

In a strange way, I think a lot of those trips are continuing, this time for a very sad occasion. But also how beautiful that those trips are already planned, and now it can become a moment to honor him. And so many people will be in the city to remember him in a year. He opened the jubilee, opened on Christmas Eve.

It will now close with a new pope. That hasn't happened since the 1700s. And so that in itself is a unique historical moment. But we're in this easter octave celebrating resurrection while also burying our papa.

And those two things in tension in just a few short weeks, will celebrate the next pope after the conclave is over. And I think that is the Christian mystery, and how beautiful for us to be able to enter into that, and how incredible for folks who are there and people who are watching from afar, and everyone who's thinking of the holy father and his legacy and his life that were able to share, that the pope is a unifying figure.

And if anybody can broker peace in the world, if anybody can bring world leaders together to honor someone, it's the pope. And so, so many folks going to his funeral, not only is a visual moment, but also who knows what kinds of conversations are going to happen in the waiting and in the remembering. And Francis, I think, would smile upon knowing everyone is drawn together to remember him in these moments.

SOARES: Yeah. And we will remember his cheeky smile that that is for sure. Very quickly, Katie, before we before we wrap up, looking ahead to the next pope, we were talking about, you know, what kind of Catholic Church we are going to see. What have you been hearing from those calling in in terms of the direction the that you know, your viewers, your listeners, where do they want to see the Catholic Church go? Do they want to continuation of Pope Francis?

MCGRADY: I think yes, I think we want to see in some ways the project of Pope Francis to continue. And I've heard from a number of people, they want that that same personal and pastoral warmth, while maybe at the same time also looking for someone who knows kind of the ins and outs of the way the Vatican operates. It's a little inside baseball to talk about.

We want a curial bureaucrat, but I think it will be interesting. We want certainly, and after having seen him for 12 years, do this, the pastoral approach of the Holy Father, close to the people, and whoever emerges from that conclave, the pope will receive the supernatural grace from the Lord to be able to serve the church in that particular way. But I think in these first moments, people are remembering him and saying, I want that same accessible, joyful, cheeky smile spirit when the next man dons the white cassock.

SOARES: Yeah, especially in a fractured world, you know that pastoral element clearly worked so needed right now.

Katie McGrady, thank you very much. Katie, great to see you once again. We'll have much more ahead from Rome after this short break. Do stay right here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:28:41]

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone.

It's almost 11:30. And the doors of St. Peter's Basilica has been opened to the public. You are looking at live images where Pope Francis is lying in state, where he will be lying in state until his funeral on Saturday.

Christopher Lamb, our Vatican correspondent, joins me now.

And Christopher and I were here with our Anderson Cooper earlier, and we saw that really moving and poignant procession.

Christopher, as we saw his casket, his coffin being moved from Casa Santa Marta to --to the basilica, what -- what stood out to you? Because that that was historic.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: It was truly historic. Very emotional scenes, particularly when the pope was moved into St. Peter's Basilica with the sun shining down, onto the into the church and the chanting by the choir, the prayers to the saints. The prayers that were said and the sense that Francis is being prepared for his final farewell.

This moment now is a chance for people to pay their respects ahead of the funeral on Saturday. I thought it was remarkable for us to see the pope being carried by those.