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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Deutsche Bank Deciding To Not Do Any More Business With Trump, While Signature Bank Will Be Closing His Personal Accounts; President Trump Heading To Alamo, Texas To Check Out The Border Wall; Lawmakers Prepare To Impeach President Trump For A Second Time; The United States Losing 3,000 People A Day To The Coronavirus. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired January 12, 2021 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN ANCHOR: Need to know. Congress closing in, lawmakers prepare to impeach President Trump for a second time. Texas Trip, the
President makes his first official visit since the chaos in the Capitol. And a banking block, Deutsche Bank, the latest firm refusing to do more
deals with Donald Trump.
It's Tuesday, let's make a move.
Welcome to First Move, great to be with you on yet another day where eyes remain firmly on Washington, DC. Congress expected to rule out a motion
calling for the Presidents removal by the 25th Amendment but the House could vote to impeach Donald Trump for an unprecedented second time as soon
as tomorrow. Then what? Great question, we will discuss during the show but in the mean time big business continues to distance itself from politics
but look at Wall Street carrying on regardless.
Futures are higher but off. The best levels I have to say after Monday's pull back, the first pull back in almost a week. Tech was the
underperformer yet financials and energy stocks gained on hopes I think for more financial aide to drive the recovery in cash continues to come off the
Deutsche Bank reporting the strongest in-flows into equity funds on record over the past two months. Remember what BTIG's Julian Emanuel told us
yesterday, that risk assets like commodities and even things like Bitcoin should do well in this environment where liquidity is king but of course he
also said buckle up for more volatility. Short term of course, we know why, the COVID crisis continues to escalate.
Keep in mind that the United States alone is losing 3,000 people a day to the virus and vaccinations are happening far too slowly. That of course is
the story across much of the developed world. Take a look at what we're seeing in Europe, lower, there are fears Germany's current lockdown may
extend until April, bucking the trend Asia, the bright spot over night. China's Shanghai Composite closing at a five year high. We'll take you
there too to find on what's going on. But vanquishing the virus is still the best hope for revival and recovery here in the United States.
Meanwhile, it's also all about Donald's (inaudible), let's get to the drivers. The House is expected to vote imminently on a resolution urging
Vice President Mike Pence to invoke the 25th Amendment and remove President Trump from Office. The action sets a stage for a historic second
impeachment vote in the House tomorrow. Sunlen Serfaty has all the details.
SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly one week after a pro-Trump mob held a deadly riot storming the U.S. Capitol House Democrats
plan to vote to impeach President Trump for the second time tomorrow formally introducing an article of impeachment Monday charging the
President with incitement of insurrection.
(VIDEO CLIP STARTS)
COLIN ALLRED, U.S. HOUSE DEMOCRAT: The Capitol of the United States was attacked by a mob of the supporters directed by the President of the United
States who called them there and who sent them there and there has to be accountability for that.
(VIDEO CLIP ENDS)
SERFATY: Some Republican lawmakers already calling on Trump to resign and one GOP Congressman says he is strongly considering voting to impeach him.
(VIDEO CLIP STARTS)
PETER MEIJER, U.S. HOUSE REPUBLICAN: To me this is not the timing that we - you know that is ideal, I'd prefer that we have a more fulsome (ph)
investigation into what happened, most of what I know about January 6th came either from personal experience or from Twitter. But at the end of the
day I think it is - it is obvious that the President is no longer qualified to hold that office.
(VIDEO CLIP ENDS)
SERFATY: Despite a source telling CNN, House Minority Leader, Kevin McCarthy indicated Trump holds some responsibility for the attempted coup.
He told his Republican colleagues in a letter quote, "impeachment at this time would have the opposite effect of bringing our country together and we
need to get America back on a path towards unity and civility."
(VIDEO CLIP STARTS)
JASON CROW, U.S. HOUSE DEMOCRAT: Every hour that he sits in the White House is an hour where the American people and the world is less safe. So, I will
not rest until we insure that he is removed from office as quickly as we possibly can using whatever tools are at our disposal.
(VIDEO CLIP ENDS)
SERFATY: The House will vote on a resolution tonight urging Vice President Mike Pence to use the 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office.
Pence, one of the apparent targets by some rioters was seen leaving the White House Monday night after speaking to the President for the first time
since last weeks insurrection on the U.S. Capitol two Administration officials tell CNN.
President Elect Joe Biden says the decision to move forward with impeachment is up to Congress but wants to make sure that it does not
derail his agenda.
(VIDEO CLIP STARTS)
JOE BIDEN: You go a half day on dealing with impeachment and half day getting my - the people nominated and confirmed in the Senate as well as
moving on with that (ph).
(VIDEO CLIP ENDS)
SERFATY: Meantime, some Capitol Hill Democrats say it will be possible to hold an impeachment trial without slowing down the start of Biden's new
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. SHERROD BROWN (D-OH): We can do impeachment while we're doing these other things, that deal with this, that combat the coronavirus and rebuild
the economy starting now, starting January 20 at noon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Joe Johns is in Washington, D.C. for us. Joe, the standup phrase I think in -- in that package for me, the timing is not ideal,
correct? And perhaps the understatement of the year and it's been a short year so far.
Let's skip ahead to a potential impeachment vote in the House. Let's assume they do impeach President Trump for the second time. What then? How does
the Senate handle it? Because you and I were talking about waiting 100 days yesterday, that's not now the noises that we're hearing.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: That's certainly not. Joe Biden talked about that yesterday. Apparently some of the Senate Democrats
have already gotten to him on that issue.
There is some talk coming from the incoming Majority Leader now, Chuck Schumer, that he would move forward with the trial during the earlier days
of the Biden Administration, perhaps even spending part of each day dealing with the impeachment trial and part of the rest of the day dealing with,
for example, Biden's appointments as well as some of his policy prescriptions, which would be a way for the Senate to essentially to walk
and chew gum all at once.
That does sound like that's what they want to do, and again, as we were speaking yesterday, Julia, there really is an eye in the Congress toward
doing this in a way that they can eventually put themselves in a place to try assure that the President of the United States doesn't run again once
he leaves office.
But, that would require more than just a vote, even to convict Donald Trump on the charge of impeachment that's put through the House now. It would
also require a separate vote, just a simple majority vote to say that he could no longer hold any office of prominence in the United States.
So, that's what they're talking about doing. But Julia, I do want to mention a couple things. Just while we were coming on the air, it's very
clear that problems continue for Donald Trump as a result of that riot up on Capitol Hill. Deutsche Bank, Germany's largest bank apparently has now
reported that it will no longer do business with the Trump Organization.
The Trump Organization has gotten loans in excess of $300 million from Deutsche Bank over the last decade. So, that sounds like a blow to the
Trump businesses, just one more indication of how severely people in the United States and all around the world are taking the spectacle of
insurrection on Capitol Hill that occurred just last week. Julia?
CHATTERLEY: The pressure continues to pile up Joe. Just actually, I was just watching and looking at the White House behind you. What is going on
in the White House behind you? What do we know?
I mean, we've got this social media silence from the president. It's -- it's quite shocking for us too, because normally on a minute-by-minute
basis we have some sense of what the president's thinking because he's tweeting about it.
What is actually happening? And he's set to -- to go to the border, Alamo today. What is normal during these final few days of an administration,
given the backdrop here of course is the pandemic?
JOHN: Right. Well, he has been hunkered down, it's very clear, and he's talked to not a lot of people. But he has talked to Kevin McCarthy, the
Minority Leader over in the House side, the Republican, and has talked to a few others.
But, you're also right that the president is heading down to the southern border today to check out the border wall in Alamo, Texas. This is part of
what was a larger plan to try to highlight what the Administration sees as its legacy achievements, but all of that has very much been overshadowed by
the events of the last week.
And the big question of course is whether we're going to hear from the president more today than we have in the last week since all of those
events occurred. First check, of course, will the president on his way to the helicopter to see if he talks. Julia?
CHATTERLEY: Ten am this morning I believe. Joe, we shall wait and see. Joe Johns, thank you so much for that. And as Joe was mentioning there, big
business continuing to distance itself from politics and the president in the aftermath of the Capitol riots. Deutsche Bank deciding not to do any
further business with President Trump, while Signature Bank says it's closing the president's personal accounts.
Christine Romans joins us now.
CHATTERLEY: We talked yesterday, Christine, about business to varying degrees distancing themselves from politicians that were refuting the
election result. But now it's getting really personal. Deutsche Bank, as Joe was saying there, saying we're not doing business anymore.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know six days ago the President was seen as a king maker in the Republican Party and then after the events
of Wednesday it's become radioactive. The brand is really tarnished here and you see Deutsche Bank saying that it will no longer do future business.
It's got a couple of loans, maybe $300 million in loans that are coming due over the next couple of years; two or three years. So the President will
have to either refinance those loans or he'll have to pay them off.
And then this statement from Signature Bank, I found it fascinating. This bank said they've been doing business with the Trumps for years; in fact
Ivanka Trump sat on its board for a time. They helped finance a Florida golf property. They're actually closing a couple of the President's bank
accounts - a bank account - a personal bank account and a trust and they're - with this remarkable statement saying that the events of last Wednesday
have tarnished the President's reputation and it has tarnished the peaceful transition of power.
We believe the appropriate action would be the resignation of the President of the United States which is in the best interest of our nation and the
American people. And whoever wrote that statement, Signature Bank say we don't comment on politics, we have never commented on politics. We don't
want to do it again. But this is such a profound moment in the American experience we feel that we need to close the President's accounts, not do
business with him and ask for his resignation.
So a very personal rebuke, I think, of this Commander-in-Chief.
CHATTERLEY: Fascinating isn't it, Christine, I mean there have been many, many times in recent years where the President has been perceived (ph) to
have crossed some line that he won't come back from and things always go back to normal rather more quickly than you would expect. It's interesting
and will be interesting to see how long this backlash last. And if it's a permanent backlash and what kind of impact it has on his business.
Speaking of financials, too; mega donor - GOP mega donor, Sheldon Adelson, was pronounced dead last night, I believe.
CHATTERLEY: And this is a huge blow to the Republicans, too. Sad, sad story.
ROMANS: 87-years old and his casino empire confirming that he passed away. Look, this was, speaking of king makers, a king maker and reign (ph) maker.
I mean somebody who donated lots of money for many, many years to Republican politics. I mean going to Vegas to meet with him and talk policy
and strategy was sort of a right of passage for so many Republican law makers. But he has passed away at the age of 87.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, Christine Romans, great to have you with us. Thank you for that.
ROMANS: You, too.
CHATTERLEY: All right, let me bring you up to speed now of some of the other stories that are making headlines around the world. Ireland had one
of the lowest coronavirus rates in Europe until recently. Now Oxford Researchers say its infection rate is the highest in the world; reporting
more than 8,000 new cases last Friday, alone. The Irish Government has since tightened its lockdown measures.
China's Hebei province is also expanding its lockdown measures after a spike in COVID infections; 40 new cases were confirmed on Monday. A second
round of mass testing is set to begin soon. So far China has administered 9 million doses of vaccines to those considered at high risk. CNN's David
Culver is in Shanghai for us. David, always great to see you. I never tire of hearing about the system that goes into place whenever we see cases pop
up in China.
Talk us through the latest and is that systematic response that we see in terms of COVID cases happening in terms of the administering of vaccines
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Julia, good to see you, as well. You know it's interesting when you compare the numbers and you're talking about 40
new cases that were confirmed most recently. You compare that to the rest of the world and it's almost laughable. Yet it's very seriously taken here
because for many of days they have seen zero to just single digit cases reported. Of course these are government figures that we're relying on for
But anecdotally that's kind of how life has been. It's near normal as though we were living pre-COVID. So what they're doing now in Hebei
province, I'll take you there first, this is a province just outside of Beijing, is as you mentioned they have already tested 17 million people.
They are now going to do a second round of tests that will include some 22 million people. And the concern there is that after this initial outbreak
is it could spread into the Capital City. So folks within Beijing are on high alert as well as folks here in Shanghai.
They're trying to prevent any spread of this most recent outbreak and as of now they seem to be successful with that. How do they do it? It goes with
contact tracing and heavy restrictions. In fact within Hebei province one of - Hebei province I should point out, outside of Beijing, one of the
cities there has about 5 million people. They're now going on a seven quarantine for all the residents. Telling them essentially you cannot leave
your homes -- you got to stay in.
Something similar to what we saw in Wuhan in Hubei Province just last year around this time, in fact, when it went on lockdown for 76 days.
So, going forward we now also look at the vaccine distribution and one of the things you and I have talked about, Julia, is that they were not going
to after a population of 1.4 billion people and try to vaccinate everyone.
Instead, they're doing this staggered vaccination approach, much like we're seeing in other countries, but they're going after the frontline workers in
particular and they've even added onto frontline workers, so kind of expanding the definition of those frontline workers, if you will, to most
recently including some of those indication, because obviously they're dealing with some of the students, students go home, parents obviously
could be impacted by that as well.
So, those are some of the measures that they're taking as of now with the vaccinations and going forward we do anticipate that more will be approved
here so that they continue in the mass numbers that they have to. And again, it's not likely though, Julia, that they're going after the 1.4
billion, because well they simply don't have the production means to do that as of yet.
CHATTERLEY: No, and it doesn't sound like they have the cases to require either, quite frankly, given the way that they respond when these COVID
cases pop up. And that's the key, both of these approaches.
I want to ask you about a study that I saw published in "The Lancet" late last week, that looked at those that were hospitalized in Wuhan, David, and
I'm sure you've looked at this too, and the really quite frightening proportion of people that six months later were still suffering certain
symptoms as a result of contracting COVID. Just -- just walk us through the details of that.
CULVER: This was really disturbing reading through this. Yes, it was published in "The Lancet" medical journal, but it was Chinese researchers
who released this information and roughly 1,700 people were part of their sample size and it were those individuals who were inside hospitals, who
were essentially admitted to hospitals for treatment for COVID-19, so those are likely the most severe cases.
But, what they have discovered is some six months out is that some of the symptoms lingered. And we're talking everything from fatigue to muscle
weakness, anxiety, depression and even in some of the more severe cases, Julia, it seems as though there's severe lung damage that has lingered.
Now, this is not unusual compared to other coronaviruses, especially when we go back to SARS, which obviously impacted more than 15 years ago, and so
they have bit more time to look at that research and it even showed more than three years out after SARS 40 percent of those who were hospitalized
in having to deal with the severe impact of that illness likewise were dealing with lingering effects.
So, we just don't know the long-term impact of this virus and obviously when you think of China and the original epicenter, Wuhan, when it was
first detected, that's why folks are looking there so specifically to see if, in fact, they can get an idea as to what the impact of this will be
CHATTERLEY: Yes, that comparison with SARS as well critically important. I did see this study published in "The British Medical Journal," it was in
August that found around 10 percent of patients had prolonged illness lasting more than 12 weeks. But the key with this Chinese study, of course,
it's the longest study that's been done and it's by far the largest. So yes, frightening, frightening numbers in that.
CULVER: That's right.
CHATTERLEY: David, great to have you with us as always. David Culver there in Shanghai.
All right, we're going to take a break here around the First Move. But coming up, why authorities believe armed protesters across the United
States are gearing up for the inauguration. Plus, less than a month after America's vaccination program began we're expecting major changes in
execution. The details next.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to First Move live from New York where I'm just looking at U.S. futures and they've weakened over the past hour. We're
actually now on track as you can see for a pretty flat open Twitter and other tech stocks that have moved to limit the online presence of President
Trump and his most radical supporters.
We're on track to bounce but actually they're losing their early pre-market gains too. They fell on Monday on concern over how their actions might
impact profits going forward.
Bucking the trend though, Tesla still set to open sum 2 percent higher. It fell actually for the first time in almost two weeks yesterday but don't
worry still up sum 14 percent so far this year.
U.S. investors still overall looking past the D.C. drama, so I have to say there is some degree of concern that an impeachment process lasting passing
inauguration will limit time spent on boosting the economy and the pandemic response of course desperately needed.
Tax hikes represent a longer term threat to markets too. Investors concerned that rates on businesses and the wealthy will rise once the
economy improves. Greg Valliere joins us now. He's Chief U.S. Policy Strategist at AGF Investments.
Greg, always great to have you on the show and Happy New Year. We were talking earlier on the show about Senate doing effective double duty
working in the morning on essentials for the economy, financial aid and Biden's program and then in the afternoon working on potential impeachment.
What do you think of that?
GREG VALLIERE, CHIEF U.S. POLICY STRATEGIST AT AGF INVESTMENTS: It certainly is possible. Nice to see you, Julia. I do think that impeachment
is virtually certain on Wednesday and there's not enough time between now and inauguration day on the 20 to resolve this in the Senate.
So you could be on a dual track as you just said. I think that for a lot of people around Joe Biden there's some anxiety. He's got a big agenda. He
needs to get a cabinet approved.
Do you really want to make Donald Trump a martyr which he was in the first impeachment? So there are arguments including the argument that it will
fail that would argue against perhaps doing this. But for now it looks like impeachment is virtually certain.
CHATTERLEY: Greg, define martyr here because if my memory serves me correctly actually Donald Trump's approval ratings improved during the
impeachment process last year.
VALLIERE: Yes, it did. I think he has an ability to make himself into a martyr that like it's a witch hunt against me and there were a lot of
people. We can't forget over 70 million people voted for him and he could certainly stir the pot.
And again I think for Joe Biden who has such an ambitious agenda, so many things he wants to get done, does he really want to complicate his life
with an impeachment fight that could drag on perhaps for the rest of the winter?
CHATTERLEY: How likely a threat is Donald Trump going forward whether it's in terms of division within the Republican Party, the millions of people
that you just mentioned that did vote for him?
The people out there that were misinformed, that believed things they read on social media and believe ultimately that this election was stolen from
Donald Trump and the Republican Party. How much of a risk is that going forward whether that's for society or for politics?
VALLIERE: A lot of risk to those two that you mentioned, Julia.
VALLIERE: But I'd also say, he's perhaps a risk to corporate America. I think one of the most fascinating stories in the last 48 hours has been
that U.S. Fortune 500 countries, U.S. trade associations like the National Association of Manufacturers have turned on the Republicans and have
announced they will not contribute to Republicans who refuse to acknowledge the validity of the election. That's quite story.
So, that -- that's one where I think Trump could inflict some real damage on the Republican Party.
CHATTERLEY: Is that permanent, Greg?
VALLIERE: That's a really good question Julie. I -- I think, no, I think things will change. What's the old adage? A month is a lifetime in
politics, so things will change by the -- by the 2022 House and Senate elections, I'm quite sure.
There's a lot that will come that we -- we can't 100 percent accurately forecast, but I think it will last for a while. I -- I think the country is
so aghast over what happened last week and the new tapes that's coming out in the last day or so of the violence, the horrific scenes, I think that's
going to leave an indelible impression on the country.
So, any kind of rehabilitation for Donald Trump, I think, is not remotely immanent.
CHATTERLEY: And all the while investors seemingly looking through the D.C. drama, and I keep mentioning it. How big is Biden's bill if he comes back
with more financial aid, and we're expecting something this week. Just how big is it, because I know even you have been perhaps thinking of revising
up your estimates?
VALLIERE: Yes, I -- I think at least $1 trillion. You know, we got a $900 billion bill a couple of weeks ago. I think $1 trillion is coming with
$2,000 checks, a lot of money for state and local governments, for small businesses, I think we can get that done my mid-February.
And despite the horrible numbers on the virus and all this stuff going on in Washington, I think by the time we get to late spring the economy is
going to be humming. And if it is, if the economy is looking good as we go into the summer, that means that next two to drop is going to be tax hikes.
CHATTERLEY: And you think that comes this year?
VALLIERE: I do. I -- I can't tell you right now what the effective date will be, but I think that Biden want to really mess around with a big tax
hike in 2022, because it's an election year. So, I think by the second half this year, second half of 2021 we'll be talking about a pretty significant
CHATTERLEY: Well, that would be a real conversation change. Does he face any opposition, by the way, if he keeps it to a $1 trillion? Fine, he'll
probably get it down, but even from the Democrat side, at some point they're like, uh.
VALLIERE: Yes, really good point. I think, obviously, a lot of Republicans are hesitant to have another big stimulus bill, but there are several
Democrats headed by Joe Manchin of West Virginia, who are saying it's too much. You know, it's too much money, we don't need something that big. Some
people don't need a $2,000 check.
So, that will be part of the debate, but I -- I do think the votes are there to get a stimulus bill by the end of the February and I think it sets
the economy up for a pretty nice run starting in the spring.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, you used the term humming in your note, and I -- I couldn't agree more if that's all we get. Greg, humming along with it. Greg
Valliere, great to have you with us, the Chief U.S. Policy Strategist there, AGF Investments. Great to see you, sir, as always.
All right, the market opens next. Stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to First Move. Wall Street is up and running this Tuesday and as expected U.S. stocks little changed in early trading this
Tuesday. Futures were solidly higher an hour or so ago, so perhaps the selling pressure we saw in yesterday's session isn't quite over yet.
Let's call it consolidation here, very close to record highs. Perhaps investors also casting a wary eye on what we're seeing in the bond market
where ten year treasuries are above 1 percent for the fifth straight session. Rising yields could ultimately put some pressure on stocks,
particularly tech stocks.
We've also got oil rallying in this session as well, energy and financials benefitting. Recovery hopes up by more than 1 percent. In the meantime,
it's another volatile day for bitcoin too. Keep an eye on this. Bitcoin still falling from a record of nearly $42,000 hit just a few days ago. As
you can see we're above $33 in the session.
All right. Let's bring it back to one of our top stories today and alarming new details in the wake of the attack on the U.S. capitol. The FBI says
armed protests are being planned at all 50 state capitols and in Washington D.C. beginning this weekend.
A state of emergency is now in effect in the U.S. capitol with up to 15,000 National Guard troops ready to secure the Biden inauguration. Jessica
Schneider is in Washington for us. Jessica, what more do we know?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Julia, this was an internal bulletin from the FBI that we obtained. I've looked at it. It lays
out in stark detail the warnings that there really could be this cascade of uprisings and violence not just in Washington but all over this country.
So the bulletin says several things, it says first credible calls. There are credible calls for armed protests at the 50 state capitols as well as
the U.S. capitol all in the lead up to the inauguration next week. Some call for January 16, some call for January 17 up until the 20.
Plus, the FBI's warning about a group who's calling for others to join them to storm government courthouses and also administrative buildings around
the country if the president is removed from office anytime before January 20.
So those are two things that the FBI is laying out but especially alarming is that they are also seeing a number of threats against the President
Elect Joe Biden and Vice President Elect Kamala Harris. So federal agents they are monitoring all of these threats in real-time, Julia.
But it is a stark reminder that a lot of these threats are proliferating on social media. And it's just a matter of keeping up and seeing which ones
might be credible. So, the good news is though in the meantime President Trump has approved a request from D.C.'s mayor for emergency assistance to
help prepare for the inauguration.
And also, Julia, the Pentagon has approved that increase for National Guard troops. Thousands of them are expected here in the capitol.
So, while state and federal and local law enforcement agencies they are scrambling to understand and for the threats there is also law enforcement
and National Guard members who will be moving in to protect this city and other states are taking action as well, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Yes. The increased security presence are clearly essential here but you mentioned something about the proliferation of potential
threats on social media for the security forces here trying to filter through these and understand what's a real threat and what isn't. This is a
huge, huge challenge.
SCHNEIDER: It is, absolutely, and we know that they are all over it. They're talking about hundreds of federal investigators, hundreds of
agents. They're manning three different areas around the country that the FBI has actually initiated command centers.
They're working 24/7, all of the 50 plus field offices for the FBI. So this is a nationwide effort. It's concentrated here in Washington, but it's all
over the country. And then of course Julia, it's all online as well where these threats are really being made repeatedly and they're just trying to
determine which ones might be credible.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, Jessica Schneider, thank you so much for that report there.
All right, coming up after the break, adding some very desperately needed vigor to the vaccine rollout here in the United States. All the details
Welcome back to "First Move." expect sweeping changes in the way coronavirus vaccines are rolled out here in the United States. The details
are due out later today, but one official telling CNN second doses will now be released immediately. That matches the plan already promised by
President-elect Joe Biden and it means anyone aged over 65 can get the vaccine straightaway.
It comes as the Kaiser family foundation says states are deviating from CDC guidelines about who gets vaccinated first, leading to a quote "vaccine
labyrinth" in their words across the country. Well, our next guest describes the vaccine distribution as a "disaster so far" but says "it's
not too late to fix it."
Dr. Peter Hotez is Co-Director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital and Dean of the National School of Tropical
Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. Dr. Hotez, always great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us. Let's talk about the
decision from the administration to effectively match what President-elect Joe Biden's incoming administration has already said they will do. How do
we need to think about this?
PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT, TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: You know we're only now I think getting our arms around the
enormity of the task ahead of us Julia, we've got to vaccinate three quarters of the U.S. population by the end of the summer. So, we're talking
about 240 million Americans, that's the number we estimate will be required in order to interrupt virus transmission.
And when you - when you do that - look at that on a daily basis, you're talking about two million Americans everyday and right now we're just not
set up for it, we don't have the vaccination infrastructure for it, we don't have all the vaccines and the rules are a little overly fussy in
terms of doing that high throughput vaccination.
So, I've been calling out to call (inaudible), call a mid-course adjustment in order to - to meet that demand because we have no other choice, we been
backed into a corner, we've not done anything to contain COVID 19 across America. This is all we have left, so this has - this can't fail.
CHATTERLEY: Say, there's a few there, there's the first you mentioned which is supply, the second thing is the administration or the distribution of
these vaccines and the infrastructure there and then the third thing is the micro way that we've gone about distributing it via the CDC guidelines
which I just mentioned now, individual states are just abandoning or widening out the groups of people who can get the vaccine at least in the
How do we fix what's going on? Because we need to think about this in your point more macro, more people need to be vaccinated and quickly.
HOTEZ: Yes, you know it's almost the systems engineering problem. I mean we really have to look at this taking a step back - taking a step back and say
"all right if we need that kind of high throughput, what are we supposed to do?" First of all the health system is to modest, the pharmacy chains are
doing what they can, the hospital systems are doing what they can but that's all we really have is the health system in the U.S. We've abandoned
traditional approaches to public health control.
I mean we have to restore bits of that at least for now and that means I think opening up large hubs, outdoor arenas that are well staffed with
medical, qualified personnel and - and outdoors because that way we can do it safely without adequate social distancing. So, you know when you look at
our urban areas we have to - when you pair down from that one to two million Americans a day, that's 10,000 to 20,000 per day in our large
cities and we're not even close to that so we have to get there and when you start doing that kind of high throughput if you have to start going
through who's an essential worker, who qualifies based on co-morbid conditions as best you can you try to adhere to that but recognize that if
you're to fussy it turns people away and you're not going to get that high throughput.
And then lastly we're going to need additional vaccines, I don't think the two mRNA vaccines by themselves will be adequate in terms of scale to
vaccinate the U.S. population. We're going to need the two adenovirus vaccines, a particle vaccine, we have a recombinant protein vaccine and the
problem is we have no other choice, we can't - we can't mess up this time like we've messed up the entry of the virus coming in from Europe or what
happened with the diagnostic testing or the southern surge and thus in the summer or the fall surge now, this is our last hope. And so we have to get
it right and this has to be the number one priority for the country right now.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's fascinating for an international audience I think too, to understand what's going on in the United States as they follow and
try and learn potentially from the mistakes admittedly and to your point, the medical systems work pretty differently but even just these early
mistakes of trying perhaps to phase in the delivery of the vaccines and we can see in this country it's - it's simply not working and we have to do
What we're not seeing and what you're not advocating here is discussions about delaying the second dose or just doing one dose for these vaccines
that require two. Do you think that's unproductive? Just explain why because this is happening where they're delaying the second dose in other
HOTEZ: Sure. It's really based on the scientific data. If you looked at the early clinical trial results, we know over the - for the last decade that
we need high levels of virus neutralizing antibody to achieve adequate protection and that's something that the - that the community of
coronavirus scientists including our lab has been looking at and the initial hope for all of these organizations, whether its AstraZeneca Oxford
or Moderna or Pfizer was to create a single dose vaccine.
But the single dose vaccine - in a single dose you have a lot of variability and the levels of virus neutralizing antibody. Some individuals
respond strongly others really nothing at all and you needed that second dose to bring everybody up to that high level. So, the point is two doses
looks like they're excellent vaccines. One dose is like a roll of the dice at the craps table and so that's not going to be adequate.
So, while it's fine to roll out all of the doses now, we absolutely have to insure that everybody gets their second dose in a timely manner otherwise
we know we're not going to be protecting individuals and as long as people understand that I think it's fine to roll out the first dose but there
absolutely has to be this commitment to getting everybody their second dose in a timely manner.
CHATTERLEY: Yes and it's interesting you say that because we spoke to the chairman of Moderna and he said look we are refining this, we're trying to
come up with a solution that just requires one dose. But for now this is what we've got and this is what's on the market. I want to ask you question
that I hear discussed a lot; once you've had the vaccination, in the two doses, and I know you're one of those actually that has received both. Dr.
Hotez, are you still assuming that you can carry this virus and that even though you hope and you have antibodies against it that you could perhaps
still give the virus to somebody else?
DR. HOTEZ: Yes, so what happens is when you get this - by the time you get the second dose, a few days afterwards you'll have high levels of virus
neutralizing antibodies. And what that means is you will not go to the hospital, you will not go the Intensive Care Unit. We have the studies to
show that. And that's really important and that's the major driver for people getting vaccinated.
What we don't know is after - even after you're vaccinated if you're exposed to the virus could you carry it without symptoms? Could you still
shed virus in your nose and mouth? We're doing - those studies are underway now but what it means is, at least for the time being, even after you're
vaccinated, even though you can walk around with knowing that you're going to the hospital or your family members vaccinated is not going to the
hospital or your friends. They could still be shedding virus and so for the time being we'll still need to wear masks and maintain some level of social
Once the study show - confirm that it stops asymptomatic transmission some of that could be lifted. So the way to look at this is we're on the slow
road to recovery now with every passing month hopefully things get all (ph) - get a little better. The problem is we still have people who are defiant
of social distancing and masks and they're getting sick and we'll be at 400,000 Americans who will lose their lives by around the time of the
inauguration which is just another catastrophe.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's just completely mortifying, frightening. Very quickly, how long do you think those studies will take before we can
DR. HOTEZ: We're going to have a bunch - there's going to be a lot of vaccine news coming out in 2021. We're going to hopefully learn whether or
not this vaccine stops asymptomatic transmission. We'll have clinical trials, pediatric clinical trials but we will (ph) be rolling out
additional vaccines. We could have four or five vaccines in the United States, additional ones in the U.K, vaccinations globally. So there's going
to be a lot of news and hopefully we'll have a system of what - of communicating this better than we have in the past because people have lots
of questions that are not being answered right now.
So we will be alert (ph) - there will be a lot more information forthcoming with each passing week.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, but we've gone full circle and it's why you just have to get as many people vaccinated in as soon as time is possible and that's the
- that's the answer. Dr. Peter Hotez, always great to chat to you, sir. Thank you, so much, Co-Director of the Center for Vaccine Development at
Texas Children's Hospital and Dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at the Baylor College of Medicine. Thank you.
All right coming up, after the break, pro-Trump voices are having to find new platforms to air their views. Donnell O'Sullivan looks at the avenues
Welcome back to "First Move." AirBnB taking preemptive steps to ban members of hate groups from staying in Washington at Heaven (ph) next week's
presidential inauguration. The accommodation site will scour Washington area reservations. Anyone associated with hate groups will face a cancelled
booking and a ban from AirBnB.
Donie O'Sullivan joins us now, Donie great to have you with us. This is a great example of trying to reestablish some form of trust in technology and
putting society before profits and I'm assuming, actually, they're going to use social media posts against these people if that's where they can find
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and as well they're also -- AirBnB said that they are going through the arrest logs of whoever was
arrested in D.C. or as a result of the D.C. mob last week, that they will also be prevented from renting in the D.C. area around the Inauguration.
So, you are starting to see members of these hate groups and people who really truly believe and push these conspiracy theories or having a very,
very tough time not only from AirBnB but also getting kicked off social media platforms. And we took a look at where what platforms they are going
now that they don't have a home on Facebook or Twitter. Have a listen.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We had an election that was stolen from us.
O'SULLIVAN: Some of the biggest peddlers of the conspiracy theory that Trump didn't lose the election, including the president himself, have been
purged from major social media platforms like Facebook and Twitter since last week's insurrection.
UNKNOWN MALE: The president's twitter account has been suspended.
O'SULLIVAN: But they and their followers have been finding new homes online. Platforms like Parler and messaging app Telegram that have few
rules and where hate and misinformation fester.
UNKNOWN MALE: I'm moving from Twitter to Parler, I'm moving to Parler, I'm moving to Parler. I have a Parler account.
UNKNOWN MALE: When people push disinformation or conspiracy theories, those conspiracy theories are just further reinforced. There's no counter-
rebuttal like there might be on Facebook or Twitter where you have fact checkers and people who have different views. It offers a civic debate.
O'SULLIVAN: Weeks ago, we spoke to Parler users who explained why they preferred this.
What is something you could say on Parler that you wouldn't be able to say on Facebook?
UNKNOWN MALE: That the coronavirus is not as deadly as everybody says it is.
UNKNOWN FEMALE: And you can literally post that on Twitter and get in Twitter jail for that.
O'SULLIVAN: But you can post it on Parler?
UNKNOWN MALE: Yes.
UNKNOWN FEMALE: Yes.
UNKNOWN MALE: No problem.
O'SULLIVAN: Financially backed by prominent conservative donor Rebekah Mercer, Parler is a social media app with an interface similar to twitter.
It was increasingly popular and reached number one on the Apple Store for a time before being taken offline overnight Sunday after Amazon, which hosted
the site, pulled support for it.
Parler is suing the tech giant in a bid to get back up and running. But Parler did at least remove this post from Trump Supporter Attorney Lin
Wood, which seemed to call for Vice President Mike Pence to be executed by firing squad. Though Wood later told CNN he made no threats and believes in
the rule of law.
The controversial far right group The Proud Boys is urging followers to welcome people to the Telegram app where its channel has seen a surge of
new followers over the past few days. We found this post on a Telegram channel summing up the potential influx of users. Parler being shutdown has
sent tens of thousands or more of people to Telegram. Now is our opportunity to grab them by the hand and lead them toward ideological
UNKNOWN MALE: The further migration toward more secure fringe platforms is going to create a bigger blind spot for researchers and law enforcement.
There's absolutely no doubt about that.
O'SULLIVAN: So Julia, a lot of folks will say that this is all a little bit too little too late from the likes of Facebook, only taking action like
this after there was an insurrection. But also there are concerns, we've heard it even from Germany's Angela Merkel that this highlights the power
of the social media platforms. A spokesperson for her described Twitter's ability to kick the President of the United States off its platform as
CHATTERLEY: Early days, Donie, marks out of 10 for these social media giants on cracking down on misinformation?
O'SULLIVAN: It's very difficult to tell because they're very -- they don't give us a lot of information or data. They're not transparent about what it
is they're taking down, what it is they are leaving up.
O'SULLIVAN: Certainly, you know, I was going through Facebook and other platforms this morning and there is still plenty of misinformation out
there, still plenty of conspiracy theories about what happened last week. Trump supporters trying to streak (ph) responsibility for this.
So, they're cracking down, they're telling us how much they're cracking down. Obviously shutting down Trump was a huge step but it's one of these
ones that is very, very difficult to measure. I'm sure we'll be hearing about what Facebook and Twitter missed in the weeks ahead.
CHATTERLEY: Nicely, diplomatically done, Donie. I'll do it, zero. I can still see the misinformation and conspiracy theory circling, sorry. Donie
O'Sullivan, thank you.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you.
CHATTERLEY: I'm sure you love our show. OK, good. And that's it for the show. I'm Julia Chatterley. Stay safe. We'll see you tomorrow and Connect
the Word with Becky Anderson is up next.