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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Senate to Take up Aid Bill Amid Rift Over Minimum Wage; Johnson & Johnson Shipping Out to Health Centers Nationwide; U.S. Expected to Elaborate on Actions against Saudis. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired March 01, 2021 - 09:00   ET



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE: A warm welcome to a new week and a new month here on FIRST MOVE.

Global stocks in March aligning with the proverb, "In like a lion," out of February -- like a lamb, my edit there -- as the bond market blues settle,

with apologies to another bond as well.

Stocks were both shaken and stirred by the spike in bond yields last week with the NASDAQ tumbling some five percent. Consolidation though in yields

seemingly paving the way to a rally premarket, as you can see.

Japan also had a great day. Up almost 2.5 percent. China also advanced despite posting the lowest factory activity data in nine months. The

slowing exports, the concern there. But in Hong Kong today, the Buffett bounce was in full force on the Hang Seng.

Chinese electric car maker BYD rallying more than eight percent after Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway disclosed more than eight percent


It's one of Berkshire's largest holdings overall. Buffett, though, less upbeat on the outlook for treasuries saying in his annual shareholder

letter, the global bonds are a risky bet. He predicted a, quote, "bleak future" for fixed income. We'll discuss.

The ongoing concern is that Central Banks, of course, will have to rein in financial support, so-called stimulus, surprised by the speed of economic

recoveries driven by vaccines, reopenings and the massive U.S. economic aid bill that had just passed in the House.

The Fed insisting that won't happen. Investors worrying nonetheless.

We'll get to the drive. Lots to discuss as always. Christine Romans joins us now. Christine, great to have you with us. The problem, and I have it

inverted commas, of a swift economic recovery feels like a first class problem quite frankly, and the Senate is going to debate on what actually

goes into that aid bill.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: That's right. I mean, I think you can think of this as a second half of the game, right?

Now, it's out of the hands of the House. It is into the hands of the Senate, and we know what is in the House version here that the Senate has

to consider, and it's a lot. It's $1.9 trillion.

It is cash payments to poor families, every single month for their kids. $250.00 a month for kids seven and older. $300.00 for kids six and younger

for the whole year.

There's money for unemployment benefits, there is cash stimulus checks, there is money for schools even if they don't open. There is an earned

income tax credit that is expanded and a child tax credit that I mentioned that is cash money for poor families every single month. There's a lot in


You're going to hear Republicans talk about things that aren't COVID laser focused and you're going to hear Democrats say everything in the economy

today is COVID focused.

You're going to hear Republicans complain about money for schools that don't open. You'll hear Democrats say, well, you have to give money to

schools that can't open so they can open for new ventilation systems and the like.

So, I think there will be more debate this week, but it feels as though this is on the runway and moving down the runway, this COVID $1.9 trillion.

This is potentially legacy building stuff for this new President.

CHATTERLEY: And debate within the Democrats, of course, as well as over what to do about the minimum wage.


CHATTERLEY: We know that some of them are saying, do not waste this opportunity to boost the minimum wage after years and years and years of

not doing and doing nothing to try and support the lowest earners in this country.

Others are saying, look, we have to get the deal done, and can we perhaps get around this by penalizing some of the big companies that don't pay a

high enough wage?

ROMANS: And maybe the minimum wage debate is going to have to live to fight another day in another form here.

We know that the minimum wage at $7.25 an hour is too low to live on in this country. There's no question and no debate about that. Is $15.00 too

high? I mean, look at living wages around the country and the living wage is well above $15.00 in much of the country, if not all of the country


The concern is putting on a minimum wage at a time -- a higher minimum wage at a time when small businesses are struggling. I would remind people that

the proposal there was for a gradual increase in minimum wage in the first place, and many companies -- here is the free market at work -- many

companies are already doing this because they can't attract and retain employees at $7.25 an hour.

But those are big companies with deep pockets and billions of dollars in profits. Those aren't the small business.

So the small business is a very, very mighty, mighty voice. A mighty stakeholder in this debate. I would remind folks, and we all talked about

this on Friday, there is a lot in this $1.9 trillion even without the minimum wage increase that is, again, potentially legacy building for this


And a reminder that President Trump's signature legislation, his tax cuts, also passed with no Democratic support. Right? Right along party lines,

razor thin, and back then, we were told this is the consequences of elections, right?

Well, here we are again with the razor thin margin and this President is going to try to have to muster every single Democrat to get this through

with Kamala Harris, the Vice President as the deciding vote.


CHATTERLEY: Yes. It shouldn't be the way politics works, but it is the way politics work, quite frankly, at least at this moment in time.

Now, we're talking about a massive spending bill. It also means massive amounts of borrowing and it comes at a time when the Oracle of Omaha,

Warren Buffett, warning about a bleak future for bonds.

ROMANS: Yes. I'm sorry. There was no sound there. Yes, And, you know, the Oracle of Omaha here, someone we listen to as the reasoned, you know, voice

in the room here, so it's a reminder, again, that the bond market is boss and always is boss, bigger than the stock market. Something to watch.

But you know, I will say here that the most important thing in the very near term, the right now, is getting that bridge between the crisis of the

working family and the other side when potentially you have a roaring economy next year or late this year and you're worried, potentially, about

inflation and what the bond market is telling us.

But the right now is just so dire. What are the options? Right? What are the options in the very near term other than rocket fuel on the right now

so you have a robust recovery on the other end? I mean, that seems to be the conventional wisdom, at least among the President and his team.

CHATTERLEY: Thank you very much to you, Christine Romans. My apologies there for that dramatic pause. You were expecting something to come there

like a piece of tape or graphics, I know, just making sure you're awake this morning. Clearly, I am not.

I am barely awake.

ROMANS: First day of March, I'll do better tomorrow.

CHATTERLEY: We'll see you tomorrow, Christine Romans.

All right, more vaccine vigor this morning. Johnson & Johnson shipping out to health centers nationwide as we speak. The Director of the Centers for

Disease Control approved the use of their shot after the F.D.A., the Food and Drug Administration gave the vaccine the greenlight on Sunday.

Elizabeth Cohen joins me now. We are moving swiftly here, Elizabeth. There's an irony here though too that we've gone from worrying whether

people won't take a vaccine and to go back for their second shot to worrying that they won't take one shot because the efficacy rate is a

little bit lower.

But for now, we just get the vaccines out there. Talk about J&J.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Julia, let's talk about this. The bottom line here is Dr. Fauci and others have said is that let's

not get too sort of stuck on the numbers. These are all good vaccines. Take whichever one comes to you first. You should get it.

But, to take a look at the numbers, to be clear about what we're talking about, in U.S. clinical trials with this Johnson & Johnson vaccine, it was

found to be 72 percent effective at preventing COVID of any kind, and it was found to be 85 percent effective at preventing severe disease.

I know that's a little bit confusing, those two different numbers, so let's go through them. What they found -- what Johnson & Johnson found was that

preventing various kinds of COVID from moderate COVID to severe COVID to the kind of COVID that kills you, it was 72 percent effective.

But when it came to preventing severe COVID, for example, the kind of COVID that would get you in the hospital or that would kill you, it was 85

percent effective, and that really is the number that we want to be paying attention to.

As one doctor put it to me, with a vaccine, what we want is for it to keep you out of the hospital and out of the morgue. And at 85 percent

effectiveness rate for those things is really quite amazing.

Now, I will say that's not quite as high as the Pfizer-Moderna efficacy rates, but still very good, and this vaccine does have two distinct

advantages. One, it is a single-dose, way easier to get a single dose out to people than to give them a dose and tell them to come back, you know,

three or four weeks later.

Another advantage is that it doesn't need to be frozen. It can just be shipped and stored at regular refrigeration. That's going to make it much

easier, much more useful, for example, in some rural parts of the world -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. Brilliant work being done by the scientists here. If you get the chance with one of these vaccines, you take it. Elizabeth Cohen,

thank you very much there.

COHEN: That's right.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. All right, let's move on. President Biden is set to provide details on the U.S. policy toward Saudi Arabia today.

This, after Friday's Intelligence report suggesting Saudi Crown Prince, Mohammed Bin Salman, approved the operation to, quote, "capture or kill"

the journalist, Jamal Khashoggi.

Sanctions have been enacted against 76 individuals, but no direct measures against the Crown Prince.

John Defterios joins me now. John, great to see you. We said this earlier in the conversation with Christine Romans, that's politics and it feels

like the same situation here.

JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN BUSINESS EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Yes, certainly, realpolitik coming to the fore here, Julia, because of the strategic

interest and trying to counter balance Saudi Arabia and Iran. But a very shrill tone around U.S.-Saudi relations right now. There's calls, as you

know, Julia, for Joe Biden to do a lot more.

But look at the contrast between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. Donald Trump was almost putting a bear hug around Mohammed Bin Salman, the Crown Prince

hoping for a $100 billion worth of military contracts and kept a very hard line supporting Saudi Arabia against Iran.


DEFTERIOS: Joe Biden wants in the war in Yemen, is wanting to reopen talks with Iran and said he'll only speak to King Salman, but no sanctions.

Not much of a surprise to me, though, Julia because if you look at U.S. policy, they wouldn't do that at the top brass of Russia or China where we

have sanctions into play as we speak.

But MBS could be accused of self-harm. So do you really need sanctions? And I'll tell you why, 2017, go back to the Ritz Carlton. A round up of 300

Saudi millionaires and billionaires.

They the partners with U.S., European and Asian investors into Saudi Arabia. They got burned in a very big way. 2018, the brutality of Jamal

Khashoggi's murder has left the international business community in shock. So here is the result.

If you take a look at foreign direct investments, it was higher prior to the Crown Prince coming in with his new plan in 2016, the Vision 2030 and

then seizing power as the Crown Prince the next year, $1.4 billion of FTI, it recovered to $4 billion to $4.5 billion the next couple of years. That's

half the level Saudi Arabia is used to, so that speaks volumes.

Then you look at foreign exchange reserves, all the earnings from the oil exports of Saudi Arabia, the number one exporter, they were having a $730

billion in 2015, and it has been a staircase lower down to around $450 billion by the end of 2020. What does it tell us? That Mohammed bin Salman

is having to finance his own build out of tourism development, infrastructure for Riyadh, the Big Neom Project in the Northwest.

This is somebody who was embraced, as you'll remember, Julia, in 2017, Silicon Valley, Hollywood, Washington, Wall Street, City of London, all

loved the reformer until those two incidents took place and he has paid a heavy price for it as he tries to rebuild confidence in this 2030 Vision.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, well, he's got many years to do it, hasn't it? But it is challenging in the interim.

John Defterios, great to have you with us. Thank you so much for that.

All right, let me bring you up to speed now with some of the other stories making headlines around the world.

Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh has been moved to Saint Bartholomew's Hospital in London by ambulance. He will be treated there for a preexisting

heart condition and an infection. Anna Stewart is outside the hospital for us now.

Anna, great to have you with us. What more do we know?

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: So we knew from last week from a statement from the Palace that the Duke was being treated for an infection. We know

that he was responding to that treatment and he still is, but the update was regarding this heart condition.

Now, what they've told us is he is undertaking testing and observation for a preexisting heart condition. That's what we have.

We do know that the Duke of Edinburgh was treated for a blocked coronary artery back in 2011. It's unclear whether it's any way related. But as you

probably saw from the pictures, the Duke was transferred from his private hospital in Marylebone where he spent the last 30 nights here to Saint

Bartholomew's Hospital in the East of London.

This is an internationally recognized hospital. It's particularly well known for cancer treatment but also cardiac treatment, as well.

This is already the Duke of Edinburgh's longest stint in a hospital. He is 99 years old, just a few months shy of 100 years old, so of course, this,

and seeing him ambulance obviously raises concerns about his health -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: And, any sign of family visits? What is the situation there?

STEWART: So last week, Julia, we saw Prince Charles have a visit with the Duke of Edinburgh in the hospital in Marylebone. We have no idea whether

he'll have any other visits from other members of the Royal Family while he is here.

As you may know, Prince Philip has been spending much of the pandemic in Windsor Castle with the Queen in a very small bubble. Both the Queen and

Prince Philip have had their vaccinations, but of course, making sure that they're not exposed to too many extra people has been a priority for the


But we will keep our eyes peeled for any visitors, a very long stay for a 99-year-old man. So it wouldn't surprise me, of course, if we do see some

people coming to see him this week -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, we wish him well. Anna Stewart in London there for us. Thank you so much for that.


CHATTERLEY: An act of defiance in Hong Kong as authorities crackdown on pro-democracy activists. Hundreds of protesters gathered outside of court

after dozens of opposition figures were charged with subversion.

It's the most aggressive action yet under Beijing's new national security law.

Protesters meanwhile back on the streets of Myanmar after the deadliest day since the military coup last month. Security Forces in multiple cities

opened fire on demonstrators killing at least 18, according to the U.N.

This comes as deposed leader, Aung San Suu Kyi was charged with a third criminal offense in a court appearance via video link.

All right, still to come here on FIRST MOVE. Israel's rebound hints at huge pent up global demand for travel. We're joined by the CEO of

And the company formerly known as Transferwise gets a rebrand. We speak to the CEO of Wise about the transformation that's more than just skin deep.

Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE live from New York where U.S. stocks look set to kick off the new month with solid gains. Chalk it up to

a quantum of solace, perhaps, some steadier bond yields. Yes, I am continuing the James Bond movie references today.

U.S. 10-year yields pull back from the 1.6 percent levels hit last week. That, if you remember, was a one-year high. It's also a strong day for all

the gold fingers out there, too, with metals starting the month with strength. Copper coming off its best monthly gain in 12 years.

Oil also higher on continued hopes for rising demand even as investors await this week's OPEC Plus meeting that could lead to an agreement

boosting global surprise. Interesting for Saudi, of course, in those negotiations given what is going on more broadly.

A surge in bookings for domestic travel in Israel could herald a recovery in global tourism. The trend is being flagged by Booking Holdings, which

owns and Priceline.

The signs of rebound follow a tough fourth quarter for Booking which saw a 63 percent slump in sales. Israel has led the world in terms of

vaccinations and momentum is gaining for vaccine passports, too, to travel safely.

Glenn Fogel is Chief Executive Officer and President of Booking Holdings and joins us now.

Glenn, great to have you on the show. We've got lots to talk about today more broadly, but can we hone in first on what you're seeing in Israel? A

reason to be excited and optimistic about the outlook, perhaps.


Absolutely, with Israel leading the world in those vaccines and we absolutely saw, as those vaccines have gotten into people's arms and then

when the government let go some of the restrictions on travel, we see an immediate uptick in travel, and we are seeing that in other parts of the

world, too, so very good news.


CHATTERLEY: Can you give us a sense of what immediate uptick looks like? What kind of numbers are you seeing in terms of percentage increase?

FOGEL: Now, unfortunately still very, very, very low, and of course, Israel is a small country, and the other is domestic travel, but of course,

people like to travel more than just within Israel.

And I'll give you an example, the U.K. is a good one to look at because when Prime Minister Johnson last week came out with the plans to get out of

the lockdown and allow international travel in May, we saw an immediate uptick.

And of course, these are small numbers. We call them green shoots, but it is good to see it.

CHATTERLEY: And how far out? Just to give us a sense -- are people booking for the summer? For late summer? How much leeway are they giving it when

they are booking?

FOGEL: Well, it is definitely summer. I mean, that's when people really like to travel in the summer and summer is the high season. Of course, we

say summer. We always have to say northern hemisphere summer because we are a very international company.

So, northern hemisphere summer. So we definitely are seeing that pick up and people are looking forward to hopefully being able to come back to some

sense of normality.

But of course, it is totally depends on the rate of vaccinations and the rate of virus infections, kind of a race between the two right now.

And hopefully the -- and I am confident that the vaccinations will win. It's just a question of how soon will it take?

CHATTERLEY: And how flexible are you being with regards to someone booking hotel, booking flights, and then saying, actually, when we get closer to

it, they realize it's not for them.

It's still not safe. They're uncomfortable. And then, they want to perhaps push back their trip. How easily can they do that?

FOGEL: Right, Julia, yes. That's so important. That's one of the great things about's system is that so much of the inventory is

cancelable, completely free to cancel.

I totally urge people, when you lock it up now, get these great prices. Go get what you want and if something were to come about that it wasn't

possible for you to travel, you just cancel.

CHATTERLEY: How important do you think vaccine passports are going to be? And are you in favor of them? Because there is some debate about the

clarity that provides, perhaps, to the travel industry but at the same time ethical concerns.

There clearly won't be people who have been -- or there would have been many people that won't have been vaccinated -- who won't have received a

vaccine by this summer. Where do you stand on the vaccine passports, Glenn?

FOGEL: So, here is the thing about that. I mean, we all know the travel industry has been so devastated, so anything that could get international

travel back up and running would be a very positive thing for so many people whose lives financially have been so damaged.

So I'm totally in favor of any technology that enables people to travel safely, that countries feel it's safe to let somebody come in because that

person has been -- gotten a vaccination, we can let them come in.

And I hear this issue about it is not fair. I say, I get it, it is not fair when you're a kid in a small school and the teacher says nobody gets to eat

their snacks until everybody has their snacks. That's fine for that.

But this, we're talking about here is trying to get the travel industry back and running and the fact that it may take a little bit longer for some

people to get the vaccination, we shouldn't prevent other people who have gotten it from going forward and traveling safely.

CHATTERLEY: But are you suggesting that there should be restrictions on allowing people who haven't been vaccinated or are you suggesting that you

can have a vaccine passport, but if you haven't been vaccinated, it should still be okay to travel?

FOGEL: Yes. So here is the thing, to every government decide how they want to do their travel restrictions. Who do they want to let in or not?

My point is the idea of not letting people or a government or somebody saying we shouldn't have any sort of proof you are vaccinated and allow

other countries that they want to let in people who have been vaccinated, that to me makes so much more sense than saying we're not going have any of

this technology to put forward vaccination passports because we think it's not fair. That's the point that I am making.

I think that as soon as we can prove that somebody is safe to travel, if a government says, we'll let you in if you can prove it, I say let's go.

CHATTERLEY: Talk to me as well about the home rental operations because I know this is something that you've been focused on in Europe and part of

your priorities for this year are developing that further in 2021. How an important piece of business might this become?

FOGEL: Well, there's no doubt that the pandemic definitely brought forward interest in going to a home instead of a hotel. We saw that last summer


And that didn't trend for a long time. A lot of people have been thinking, gee, maybe a home, maybe a hotel, I'm not sure. But the pandemic brought

forward that interest.

And certainly going forward, this coming summer, more people will be interested in it because they looked at it last year. So it's certainly an

important part of the overall travel industry.

And, you know, we are one of the biggest players in that business right now. But for us, we say it's whatever you like. If you would like a home,

we've got that.


FOGEL: If you've got hotels, you can choose that, too. On our site, we put them together, you can compare and contrast and look at reviews for either

one and decide what really fits your needs.

CHATTERLEY: Glenn, let's tie all the threads of this together. I know it's tough because different nations are going at different speeds, different

parts of the world are operating in terms of vaccines differently.

But just as a CEO when you're looking ahead, in your mind, what kind of timeframe are you giving it to get even half way back to what we were

seeing before the pandemic hit in terms of global travel and then for full recovery? Just give us a sense of your timings here.

FOGEL: So it is so interesting because I have asked that question every single time.

CHATTERLEY: I am sure.

FOGEL: Last week we did our team's call, everybody -- everyone wants to know when. If there's a light switch and what day does this light switch

get flipped and it all back the way it used to be? That's not the way it is going to happen.

We all know that it is entirely a function of a couple of factors here, to complete the control of any travel company, pretty much out of most --

almost anybody except the people who are producing vaccines because of big factors: how fast are these vaccines being produced and how quick they are

really getting distributed?

And then governments in terms of how well can they do their logistics to get these vaccines into people's arms? And also, what sort of restrictions

do they want to have? At what point do they feel, okay, it is safe enough to allow people to travel or not. That's done by governments, but my hope

is that it just happens sooner rather than later and that we all can go back to a life of normalcy.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, that light switch is also about confidence for travelers as well, isn't it? And we just have to wait to see.

Glenn, great to get your perspective today. Glenn Fogel, Chief Executive Officer of Bookings Holdings. Sir, thank you.

The market open is next. Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: Plenty of joy and excitement at the Stock Exchange this morning. Welcome back to FIRST MOVE.

U.S. stocks are up and running as we begin a new week and a new month on Wall Street. As expected, we're seeing nice gains across the board. The S&P

trying to bounce after two straight weeks of losses.

March is traditionally a good month for the markets despite all the volatility, too. February was a profitable one for the bulls with the small

caps wins, the hands down winners. Take a look at that, up more than six percent in February alone.

Bitcoin beginning the week with gains, too, amid a bullish new call from Citigroup. Citi says the cryptocurrency is at a tipping point and could

become a preferred currency for global trade. Wow. I know a lot of people in the industry will argue with that.

MicroStrategy also announced today that it spent another $50 million to buy Bitcoin recently. The CEO, Michael Saylor, if you'll remember is a leading

Bitcoin bull, urging other corporations to add crypto to their balance sheets.

Now, checking other crypto names, Ethereum up more than nine percent, as you can see in the session. Gains, too, for XRP and Litecoin.

All right, IBM significantly expanding its hybrid Cloud Services that combined both private and public clouds. Today, the company officially

launching IBM Cloud Satellite enabling companies to build, deploy, and manage their Cloud Services in any location.

Joining us now, IBM President, Jim Whitehurst. Jim, great to have you on the show. Just explain this concept to our viewers who might be a bit

bamboozled. My understanding is it is bringing all the Cloud capabilities to wherever you have the data.

JIM WHITEHURST, PRESIDENT, IBM: Yes. Exactly. It's one of the big issues with Cloud computing is that, you know, it is by nature mortally locked in

large data centers that we all think about these massive data centers that are in specific locations.

Yes, and at the same time, there's this pull to the Edge where you have more and more data in an Edge, so a video feed that you actually want to do

analysis on and it's really hard to move all of that data back to centralized datacenters.

So, you have all of these functionality in a Cloud, but you actually want to run it at the Edge. And so that's what we are standing now. We're taking

all of the capabilities of IBM's Cloud, but because it runs on a common platform, we can run that all the way out of the Edge. So a branch location

or a factory floor or, frankly, another public Cloud.

So wherever there is compute resource, we can now bring our Cloud capabilities to that place. So it literally allows you to have ubiquitous

Cloud anywhere.

CHATTERLEY: So where does this sit with the concept that I always think of when I think of IBM, which is this hybrid Cloud setup where you have and

IBM has talked to this show about it a lot, where we have people that are sitting on around 80 percent in average of their data on private systems in

the private Cloud and then 20 percent of that now is migrated to the Cloud.

How does this idea of bringing the Cloud to the Edge and where the data is fit with the idea of maintaining some part of it in private and some parts

of it on public. Does it change where you think that's going in?

WHITEHURST: Well, I think what this does is this allows you to bring the benefits of what you think of as public Cloud to your datacenter all the

way to the Edge.

And so, you know, so we think about Cloud computing, the benefits of it aren't just the fact that it is in a big centralized datacenter. It's the

fact that you have common services that can easily be called in hyper automation so you need fewer people.

And there are great things that allow a Cloud to run more efficiently or cost effectively, makes it quicker for developers to develop.

Well, now, we're allowing you to bring it on-premise to your -- in your own datacenter all the way out to the Edge. So now, if you want a developer who

wants to call the XYZ Open Source Database and then a machine learning algorithm to build an application quickly, they can do it on-premise, they

can do it in an Edge location, they can do it on a public Cloud because we are basically bringing that set of capabilities wherever you want to run


So we are bringing both the features and the automation and the self- service capabilities of a public Cloud. We are allowing you to run that on- premise in the datacenter all the way out to the Edge or a factory floor.

CHATTERLEY: I am just trying to imagine in which sectors this would be truly transformative. I guess, the financial services sector where they are

very sensitive and for regulatory reasons, they have to hold on to the data. Healthcare, I guess is another great example.

Is that sort of where you're going to be primarily focused or is this applicable to anybody that has data that they want to analyze in-house?

WHITEHURST: Well, it is applicable to anyone that the characteristics of the application mean that you want to run it, you know, in-house. And that

can be, as you said, regulated industry.


WHITEHURST: So whether that is financial services or healthcare or public utilities or government. There are a lot of areas where you have

information where for regulatory reasons, you can't or it is very expensive to try to run those on a public Cloud.

But that is also equally true if there is the characteristic of the application. So I use the idea something that has a lot of -- stream of


So if you have a stream of video, let's say looking at a weld on a factory floor and you're trying to analyze, is that weld good or not? Streaming all

that data, you know, 5G, you know, wirelessly to a point all the way up into a Cloud, that's a lot of data moving. Where isn't it easier if you

just move the application to the data?

So there is a set of applications that can meet any industry that are data heavy where you don't want to transmit that back and forth because of

latency or just the economic cost of doing that.

So, certainly the regulated industries and use cases, but there are other use cases where just the nature of the application, you don't want to try

to move all of that to a public Cloud.

So in either case, being able to move your application to where the data is makes a lot more sense, and that's what we're enabling.

CHATTERLEY: Can I just get your wisdom, Jim, while I have you, as well, on some of the information that came out of the SolarWinds hack hearing last

week, and it was questions being raised about where the data is most safe. Is it most safe in a fully Cloud operated environment versus having a

hybrid set up where you have some data in private Cloud, some data in public.

And I think the description used was the seam between those two things that make it perhaps more vulnerable that just it all being in the Cloud.

And another thing I think that Microsoft suggest was, if the hack takes place in-house, someone like Microsoft or a Dell or an IBM can't trace

where the problem existed if it's in-house versus if it if was on Cloud, they could do it perhaps more easily and quicker. Jim, what is your take on


Is it safer to have fully Cloud versus hybrid?

WHITEHURST: Frankly, I don't think the model of Cloud really matters that much. I mean, look, the big issue with the hacks it's not, you know, spies

coming in through the skylights. It's somebody checking the million different windows looking for one that's left unlocked.


WHITEHURST: And so the inquiries about how firstly you made it your infrastructure. So whether you manage it well on a public Cloud or you

manage it well on a private Cloud, you know, it matters a lot, and more than whether it is on a public or private Cloud.

You know, so we have been really focused on having one infrastructure or a common infrastructure we call Open Shift which runs whether it is on-

premise on the Edge or on a Cloud as the foundation on which to build applications.

So you have one inherently secure platform. The problem happens again when you have, you know, developers all over the place in an unmanaged way doing

things and somebody leaves an S3 bucket open or something like that, here and there.

It is the variety that gets you more than inherently where it runs, which is why we are very focused on one common platform to make sure that runs

everywhere, then you can, avail yourself of Clouds, but you have one security model, one security response team. You know, they can look across

that whole kind of framework.

So, it is less where it is, and more about having a common framework and less variety in which there's more likely to be a mistake or a

metaphorically, a window left unlocked.

CHATTERLEY: So you have to trust your provider because that's ultimately the key in this, is what you're saying and that makes sense. Choose wisely.

Jim, great to hear about what you're doing. Thank you for joining us on the show today.

Jim Whitehurst, the President of IBM there, thank you.

All right, up next, becoming Wise, the CEO of cash transfer company on its rebrand. Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. A new month, a new name for Transferwise which will simply be known now as Wise.

The U.K. Fintech star made its name as a cheap and simple way to move money internationally. Now, at 10 years old, it has 10 million customers moving

over $6 billion a month in 55 different currencies.

For now, it's also offering additional services including an international bank account and debit card.

Joining us now is Taavet Hinrikus, he is the CEO and cofounder of Wise. Great to have you on the show. I have to say, as always, looking through

all the different things that you provide to your customers, you're looking more and more like a challenger bank.

Just talk to us about Wise and the vision for the company.

TAAVET HINRIKUS, CEO AND COFOUNDER, WISE: So when we launched Transferwise 10 years ago, we started with one simple service: moving money between the

U.K. and Mainland Europe.

But as we've grown through the years and gathered a customer base of 10 million customers, we realized that we are offering many more services.

Today, you can use it as a consumer, as a business.

We're offering services to other banks and soon, we will have a new investment account coming live in the U.K.

So, we realized that the old name, Transferwise, it is just becoming a little bit too small for us, so we realized, moving forward, it would make

much more sense to make it a short and better name and just call ourselves Wise.

CHATTERLEY: Which makes perfect sense to me. Just give me a sense of how much savings you're providing your customers whether they are individuals,

whether they are businesses relative to some of the other big players, even if we just speak to the remittance business, the payment business, for


I mean, the obvious competitors here, MoneyGram, Western Union. How much more of a savings do you provide? And how are you doing it?

HINRIKUS: If you look at the U.S. alone, the U.S. consumers are using about $8.7 billion in exchange rate markups and other fees every year. So

using Transferwise, you will be able to save quite a lot of money, it goes for both businesses and consumers all around the world.

CHATTERLEY: Why? Why are they losing so much money? I think for most people when they look at exchange rates there, they are frightened off. And

even if they see something that says zero commission, they get a huge added cost in their bid office spread between the currencies that they offer.

Are you trying to strip back and give greater clarity over how people exchange money around the world?

HINRIKUS: Zero commission or calling it free is probably the biggest lie that we see that businesses offer out there.

When we start as a business, that was the main reason we got upset. We saw that banks are actually applying an exchange rate mark up two, three, four,

sometimes, five percent above the midmarket exchange rate.

So we realized that what consumers really need is transparency. So we started with a different model where we are upfront about the total we

charge and so we can provide -- so we order cheaper in what you get in competing services.

CHATTERLEY: So, you are trying to take on the banks here. They are the competitors in your mind?

HINRIKUS: The incumbents here are mostly banks. If we ask our customers what service you used before? Most common answer is, we used banks before.


CHATTERLEY: So when you open up international bank accounts and you have a debit card that people can use, are you targeting that towards

international travelers, for example? Because as we have seen over the past year, there's not been a lot of that.

HINRIKUS: So, when we think about what we are doing going forward, we are thinking about this as international banking.

It's actually a niche which hasn't really been served by anyone in the past. We look at people and businesses who are doing business

internationally or people who use to be living between different countries which we hope will be happening again in the future, so it is kind of a new

category of international banking where we help people who have needs in multiple currencies in multiple countries.

CHATTERLEY: Now, the other thing I noticed and there are IPO rumors, so you can address those in a moment. But something else I thought was quite

interesting is a potential avenue particularly in light of what we've seen here in the United States with things like Robinhood and the retail

investor community.

You've signaled an interest perhaps in offering investment services, getting regulated approval in the United Kingdom. What can you tell me

about your ambitions there?

HINRIKUS: So we realized that we have customers keeping $4 billion in deposit in Transferwise. And so, it kinds of makes sense to ask them how to

define the terms and the biggest concern that came back is, can they earn some kind of return on the deposit we hand with you?

So when looking into it, and we will be introducing a very simple investment account. It will be live this year starting with U.K.

CHATTERLEY: So not necessarily investing in things like stocks. It is a very simple product, I am assuming, low risk.

HINRIKUS: Just to start with, it is going to be very simple indeed.

CHATTERLEY: Interesting. Okay, talk to me about IPO rumors. Can you tell me anything at all?

HINRIKUS: A listing has always been on our long term roadmap and so there have been rumors about it for years. We'll talk more about it if and when

we'll have something specific to say.

CHATTERLEY: What is the decision making process, though, versus staying private? Or deciding to go public? Just in your mind as someone who is

growing a business. You've clearly done incredible my well over the last decade and still in a huge growth phase.

Is it about money? Because you're profitable now. So how do you make a choice between going public or staying private, particularly at this moment

in time?

HINRIKUS: When building Transferwise, we've really been mostly guided by what is best for our customers. So, also, think about whether we will be

public or when. We try to think about it -- we try to think about what is in it for the customers? So the process is still ongoing.

CHATTERLEY: Staying tightlipped. I hear your message loud and clear.

Talk to me about -- oh, I've got the pronunciation right -- Certific, you're trying to take what you've done in terms of revolutionizing

financial services and taking an approach for COVID and testing. What is this product you're now working on?

HINRIKUS: So I cofounded Certific which uses Science and Technology to make the world a safer place for live events, for travel and social

gatherings. We realized it is another way to make use of Science and Technology to make trustable home testing faster, cheaper, and better. In

the same way as making money transfer faster and better for Wise.

CHATTERLEY: Come back and talk to us about this soon, please. I don't know how you find all the time, but you clearly do. Great to have you with us

and thank you for explaining what you're doing.

The CEO and cofounder of Wise, and I just want to apologize to our viewers if there were a few sound issues on that interview.

Okay, a major blow to Australia's wine industry. How wine became a victim of the spat over the origins of COVID-19. That's next.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. China's foreign investment in Australia fell 62 percent last year compared to 2019. That is according to

a new study by the Australian National University.

It comes after relations between the two nations soured over the origins of the coronavirus. Angus Watson explains how Australia's winemakers got

caught in the middle.


ANGUS WATSON, CNN PRODUCER (voice over): Taste the difference. 2015 Australia and China signed a Free Trade Agreement and Aussie winemakers are

among the big winners. The removal of tariffs super charged a growing industry.

Then following a single statement, it dried up.

SCOTT MORRISON, AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER: It's important that we learn the lessons of how this pandemic started so we could move on any future

pandemic wherever it starts.

WATSON (voice over): That call for an inquiry into the origins of COVID-19 left a bad taste in the mouths of the Chinese government, and soon after,

China hit Australian export products with blocks and huge tariffs.

Number two diplomat in Australia Wang Xining said China felt like Caesar betrayed by his friend, Brutus.

Temporary duties of up to 212 percent were slapped on Australian wine and a probe opened into alleged Australian dumping of cheap product on the

Chinese market.

BRUCE TYRRELL, TYRRELL'S WINES: Margins are margins. So it could be quadrupling of their price, which pretty much puts us out of the


WATSON (voice over): In December of 2019, Australia exported over $134 million worth of wine to China. In December of 2020, just $3 million.

Bruce Tyrrell says the wines from his family vineyard in Hunter Valley north of Sydney are particularly pleasing to the Chinese palate, fruity and


Just like his government in Canberra, Tyrrell believes, the rising taste for Australian wine in China defies Beijing's accusation that Australia has

been dumping its cheap stuff.

TYRRELL: And if we would were dumping, why did the average price of our exports to China go up by 30 percent in four years? That just makes the

dumping accusation complete rubbish. Someone has dreamed it up.

WATSON (voice over): Before the tariff hike on Australian product, only France was shipping more wine to China. Emmanuel Briat, a small part of

that, a Frenchman with a love for Australian wine. He says Chinese customers love it, too, so much so he only sells Australian at his shop in

Hong Kong, but he has had to put his business shipping wine from Melbourne to Shanghai on ice.

EMMANUEL BRIAT, WINE SHOP OWNER: There was a lot of demand for this wine, but not anymore.

Just hoping that it won't last forever and it is just for short period of time and things will get better.

WATSON (voice over): Until then, other countries eye up the gap in the Chinese market.

TYRRELL: With Australia kicked out of China, I would think the Europeans would be in there like running a marathon.

WATSON (voice over): And in the immediate term, Australian winemakers will look to recoup some of their lost sales close to home, as bars and

restaurants here reopen after COVID-19 lockdowns.

Angus Watson in Sydney, Australia.


CHATTERLEY: Plenty of wine and champagne corks popping last night. There was a Royal winner at last night's Golden Globes.





CHATTERLEY: Sweeping the TV categories, "The Crown" won four awards including Best Drama Actor and Actress. The Director of "Nomadland" Chloe

Zhao became the first Asian woman and second woman overall to win Best Director. Her film also winning Best Motion Picture Drama. She looked to


Tina Fey and Amy Poehler hosted the show put on by the Hollywood Foreign Press Association with the nominees video chatting from home.

And from the Golden Globes to fireball meteors. Lots of video from doorbell cameras capturing the moment at about 10 o'clock last night across the U.K.


CHATTERLEY: Fireball meteors are exceptionally bright and can often be seen over a wide area. It looks like shooting star from a Disney movie.

All right. That's it for the show. If you have missed any of our interviews today, they will be on my Twitter and Instagram pages. You can search for


But for now, that's it for me. Stay safe as always and "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is next.

We will see you tomorrow.