Return to Transcripts main page

First Move with Julia Chatterley

America's Ambitious Earth Day Emission's Pledge; Australia Cancels Belt and Road Deals Angering Beijing; India Sees Record New COVID-19 Cases Pushing the Health System to the Brink. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired April 22, 2021 - 09:00   ET



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE: Live from New York, I'm Julia Chatterley. This is FIRST MOVE and here is your need to know.

Climate committed. America's ambitious Earth Day emission's pledge.

China clash. Australia cancels Belt and Road deals angering Beijing.

And COVID collapse. India sees record new cases pushing the health system to the brink.

It's Thursday. Let's make a move.

A warm welcome once again to FIRST MOVE, and a Happy Earth Day to all our viewers around the globe, too. It's a day where the U.S. government

formally announces its return to climate competency in a Summit attracting leaders from other big polluters from around the world including Chinese

President Xi Jinping. It's the second Earth Day spent amid the global COVID pandemic, of course, too.

India, as I mentioned reporting more than 310,000 new daily cases today. The worst one-day case spike ever. We'll take you there for all of the


We'll also speak to the head of the O.E.C.D., Angel Gurria who says strict climate goals and stronger vaccine rollouts are urgently needed to avoid

exacerbating economic, social and healthcare inequalities around the world.

On this Earth Day, it is more important than ever to remember no global citizen is truly safe unless we all are, and we have to take care of each


In the meantime, Wall Street is struggling to reflect Earth Day's green in premarket trade after Wednesday's one percent bounce back. That said, we've

got another encouraging read on jobless claims in the United States, too, still highly elevated, let's be clear, but the lowest levels since the

start of the pandemic and below that 600,000 level for a second straight week.

All right, let me give you a look at the global picture for stocks at this moment. Europe managing to make gains. It is higher across the board with

the region's economic climate in focus today, too.

Christine Lagarde continuing to focus on the near-term risks after the E.C.B.'s policy meeting today saying massive stimulus support is still

needed, and you can have a look as well at what we have going on in Asia. Earth Day green shoots in Japan after a four percent plunge in stock this

week on concerns that the State of Emergency declarations may be announced in Tokyo and other regions.

All right, let's get to the drivers. President Biden has a present for the planet this Earth Day vowing that the U.S. will cut emissions in half by

2030, that's compared to 2005 levels.


JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: By maintaining those investments, and putting these people to work, the United States sets out

on the road to cut greenhouse gases in half -- in half by the end of this decade.

That's where we're headed as a nation.


CHATTERLEY: And world leaders from 40 different nations joining this Summit. As you can see, these are live pictures. Vladimir Putin, of course,

the President of Russia speaking at this moment. Just one of many. Xi Jinping as I mentioned earlier, one of the other leaders speaking

geopolitical tensions aside, everyone, I think recognizing the importance of tackling the planet at this moment.

John Defterios joins us with all of the details. John, great to have you with us. The United States is stepping up ahead of this, and the E.U. is

stepping up and accelerating its targets, too. All eyes on big polluters like challenged India at this moment, and China, too with what they can

come up with.

JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN BUSINESS EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Yes. I would say, Julia, that the Biden administration is clearly, clearly here upping the

ante with its targets release today going into this Summit of leaders, some 40 attending here.

These are the game changers that can set the targets to COP 26 in November, and it's an important pivot, if you will, if they can get alignment here

with the Biden administration and the U.K., which is leading that discussion here.

But let's just park ourselves for a moment on the Biden administration. This target to cut emissions by 50 percent to 52 percent by 2030 is nearly

double what we saw in the Barack Obama administration which was 26 percent to 28 percent by 2025, and we can't forget, Julia, that we were parked for

four years with Donald Trump outside the Paris Climate Agreement.

So as you suggested with Xi Jinping speaking and now Vladimir Putin, we have the number one emitter, China, speaking to the United States, the

number two emitter and that is fantastic because if you get buy-in by those two, and if you can get India onboard, then you start to get momentum.

Now, Russia is one of these standouts, Julia, because it's so dependent on oil and gas right now, it becomes a political risk over the next 20 or 30

years, and there are other states like that here in the region like Iran, Iraq, Libya and Nigeria. That's not what they're considering right now.

They just want to accelerate the pace on COP 26, and this is a very steep hill to climb, Julia.


DEFTERIOS: The Renewable Energy Agency here and we've talked about this before, RENA is talking about reducing demand for hydrocarbons, and listen

to this number, by 75 percent by 2050 to have a chance to hit 1.5 degrees on the global warming centigrade by that timeframe here right now.

And we have to remember, and this is not often talked about, we still have 770 million people living without electricity. So how do you balance the

need to rush to get to the Paris Climate Agreement and still remember those nearly one-seventh of the population around the world that don't have

electricity on a daily basis, and can you wean them off of biomass and coal and oil in that time frame as well?

CHATTERLEY: The richest nations have to step up. That's the key. If you have got nations that are struggling, those that can must and they must

accelerate and to your point, America is certainly upping the ante.

I mean, what we've seen in the last four years as well is despite the concerns over what the U.S. government was doing or more importantly, not

doing, companies still saying, look, we are committed to the climate, and yet, there is a report out by a sustainable finance firm, Arabesque today

saying that less than 25 percent of the world's biggest public companies are following through to the commitments to adhere to the Paris Agreement.

John, business has to do their part, too.

DEFTERIOS: Yes, absolutely, Julia, and I'm glad you spotted that because what we're talking about here is a public-private partnership on a scale

we've never seen in the 20th or 21st Century.

CHATTERLEY: Oh, and we've lost John there. I was waiting for the big crescendo there, and we never got it. If we get John back, we will go back

there, but for now, we will leave it there. John Defterios there, thank you for joining us.

Our next driver is: on the move no more after Australia slammed the brakes on a Belt and Road deal with China. Beijing expressing its firm opposition

and warning further action.

Clare Sebastian joins me now. Just the latest salvo, Clare, in the tensions between Australia and China. Just talk us through what happened here with

these Belt and Road deals because two relating to China, two others from other suspect nations.

CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. This is a big deal, Julia, because this is essentially the central government of

Australia overriding one of its states.

Victoria is its wealthiest state, they signed a Memorandum of Understanding with China back in 2018 to sort of be part of the Belt and Road Initiative,

that massive strategic priority for Xi Jinping, a key signature policy for him that aims to sort of fund infrastructure projects throughout Southeast

Asia and thereby increase China's influence in that region.

Now, this wasn't a traditional Belt and Road deal. It doesn't seem to be sort of funding an infrastructure project. It was simply to sort of build

cooperation, encourage investment, and that kind of thing. The memorandum has somewhat vague language around this, but the fact that it is now being

ripped up is extremely significant and certainly in the context of the deterioration of the relations between China and Australia, the Australian

government saying that the deal was quite inconsistent with the Australia's foreign policy, while adverse to our foreign relations, also as we say,

tearing up several deals with Iran and Syria. So, not the kind of company that China really wants to find itself in.

The Chinese reaction also very strong. The Embassy in Australia calling it another unreasonable and provocative move. The Foreign Ministry

spokesperson saying it had lodged solid representations with Australia, so a clear deterioration here, Julia, between Australia and China, which is

still its biggest trading partner.

CHATTERLEY: I was going to ask you that. What is actually going on? I remember back in March, the Chinese government confirming tariffs of up to,

I think, it was 218 percent on Australian wine for the next five years. What's happened since tensions deteriorated at the beginning of the COVID

crisis? It think it was Australia who said, we need to investigate the origins. What's happened to trade since?

SEBASTIAN: Yes. So that was the trigger. That happened about a year ago, the Australian government saying that they wanted an independent inquiry

into the origins of COVID-19. It caused outrage in Beijing.

Now, no one has explicitly linked any of the sort of seeming retaliation in terms of trade from China, but what has happened is that Australian exports

to China have started to encounter difficulties, things like beef, timber, now we have tariffs on wine that go up to 212 percent and there were even

suggestions at the end of last year that there might be restrictions put on Australian coal imports into China, which would really be a major deal.

So look, we don't know if this could go further, retaliation is something that China has put on the table again. The Foreign Ministry spokesperson

saying China reserves the right to make further responses.

So, clearly trade is an arena that is now embroiled in this diplomatic battle.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. I read somewhere that Chinese investment in Australia is down more than 60 percent in 2020. Clare Sebastian, thank you so much for


All right, let's move on. Credit Suisse says it would have been its best quarter in at least a decade if you look past the $4.8 billion hit from the

collapse of the U.S. investment fund, Archegos.


CHATTERLEY: Anna Stewart joins me now. Anna, I mean, that says everything. Please look over here at our results in the best quarter for 10 years while

the management stuffed this skeleton of Archegos Capital back into our closet somewhere.

I mean, really.

ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Well, yes, the top line really from the CEO today was that this loss is unacceptable, and really hammering home that

this would have been the strongest quarter Credit Suisse has had for over a decade, but of course, we can't really look past the issue of Archegos, and

also, of course, Greensill Capital.

Now, today, I would say within the earnings report, it very much looked like Credit Suisse wants to draw a line under this. They say that they have

now exited 97 percent of their position on Archegos. They said they expect this to further cost them around $650 million. Julia, that will bring the

total cost of this Archegos debacle to over $5 billion, and you know what? It could actually be more.

Now, are shareholders feeling relieved that the bank is trying to draw a line under all of this? Not so much. Look at the share price today, down

over five percent. Investors probably not happy that they are being tapped here for an additional $2 billion, and the capital raise also caused the

dividend cut, and I think plenty of people are asking whether this really is the end of the fallout regarding Archegos and Greensill Capital, and

perhaps more importantly, will this ever happen again?

Have procedures been put in place to ensure that this doesn't get repeated -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: And therein lies the key, trust, because you can have a great quarter, but if you're pushing an environment of excessive risk taking and

that's -- we know that's going on anyway given the money slushing around in the system, how do investors trust you?

Anna, what are they doing to try and regain people's confidence that they are in control of the situation, and they know what's going on in the bank?

STEWART: Well, we had a lot of firings and hiring, didn't we already, particularly within the investment and wealth management -- or sorry, risk

management divisions. Of course, the bonuses were also waived for 2020.

Today, one interesting part was they are saying, they are massively reducing their lending to hedge funds by up to $35 billion or actually

perhaps more, so around a third, so that's going to definitely limit their exposure.

They've also asked for an independent investigation into the issues of Archegos and Greensill Capital, as has, finally the Swiss market regulator.

They are starting enforcement proceedings. They don't have the power to fine the bank, and it does feel late in the day. They say they will

complement and reinforce the steps taken by Credit Suisse already.

But I think the question here is, is there already a big problem here in terms of a risk culture within the bank, and is that really being addressed

by the firings and hiring and you know, a few probes here and there -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and they certainly denied that in an interview earlier on a different network this morning, but you raise a really, really important


Anna Stewart, thank you so much for that.

All right, let me bring you up to speed now with some of the other stories making headlines around the world.

India has reported more than 314,000 COVID cases in a single day, that's the highest ever daily tally from any nation in the world. The number of

deaths also jumped to a new high, more than 2,100 reported on Thursday.

Hospitals across India are struggling to cope. Many running out of oxygen, intensive care beds and crucial supplies.

Let's get more from CNN's Ivan Watson. Ivan, great to have you with us. The situation sounds incredibly desperate and we're seeing it on social media

with people pleading for help.

IVAN WATSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, just the level of, I think, anxiety and fear that we're hearing from Indians,

including our own colleagues in CNN's New Delhi Bureau who all are impacted by the scale of this.

The first real wave of the pandemic that India faced that reached its peak kind of in September has been absolutely dwarfed by this massive surge of

new COVID cases. It's all the more striking when you consider that the central government, it had Ministers that were predicting that India was

approaching the light at the end of the tunnel as recently as February, and now you have these just acute shortages of hospital beds, of medicine, and

of medical oxygen to treat patients who are gasping for their breath.

For example in the capital, New Delhi, the New Delhi Health Minister saying there were only 26 intensive care unit beds vacant as of Thursday

afternoon, to give you a sense of this scale of this.

Take a listen to what one person had to say about the level of fear right now.


RAJIV RAI, VARANASI RESIDENT (through translator): People are really scared. They are terrified. Most people have isolated themselves in a self-

imposed lockdown. They are not stepping out necessarily, and roads are all empty. People are careful at this time.



WATSON: Julia, let's also take a look at some of the social media pleas that are so desperate that people are issuing for their sick loved ones. We

have one where somebody says, "I need an ICU for my grandfather in Delhi. He is 87, and his oxygen is dipping to 68. Please, please, please help me."

Another person saying, "My friend's mom is in ICU in Lucknow. They are struggling to get oxygen. Can anyone help me get oxygen cylinder or

refill?" Another person tweeting, "My cousin is lying in unconscious condition waiting for the ICU bed since the last five hours. His oxygen

saturation is 50. He won't survive until the morning."

I mean, we're seeing this on a really massive scale right now. The central government issuing kind of a number of Executive Orders saying that oxygen

shipments across state lines should not be restricted, issuing a ban on oxygen use in industries except for nine exceptions. Clearly, wanting to

make sure that oxygen can get to the hospitals that need them right now, but truly a desperate situation, and as we've seen in other countries when

they see these spikes, it's not something that ends overnight. It's something that is likely to continue for more desperate weeks at a time,

until it starts to ease off. So India is really in a dire situation right now.

The Prime Minister, Narendra Modi just now has canceled a campaign trip to West Bengal State. As recently as the beginning of this month, his party

was holding mass rallies. Now, they've announced that they want to keep those election rallies down to a maximum of 500 people, which suggests that

politics are still moving ahead at quite a large scale even though the country is facing this serious, serious health crisis right now -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, as you said, Ivan, desperate and heartbreaking situation going on there. Thank you for that report. Ivan Watson there.

All right, we're going to take a break here on FIRST MOVE. Coming up, as world leaders talk about climate change, the O.E.C.D. Secretary General

joins me to lay out his vision of a sustainable future.

And Ethereum or Bitcoin? The cofounder of crypto's number two currency you could argue is outperforming its bigger brother. Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. President Biden's Global Climate Summit under way as we speak on this Earth Day as the White House looks to

return America to a leadership position on tackling climate change.

Forty world leaders are joining the U.S. President to discuss how to protect our planet, the Indonesian President you can see speaking there

live at this moment.

This of course, as the world is dealing with the huge challenge of COVID- 19. The O.E.C.D. is urging a faster vaccine rollout across the world for a stronger economic recovery.

Joining us now is the O.E.C.D. Secretary General, Angel Gurria. Sir, fantastic to have you on the show. Two critical issues to deal with. The

more immediate, COVID of course, the multigenerational challenge, climate.

Let's start with COVID. I think we all knew it was going to be an imbalanced vaccine rollout. But we are seeing supply issues. We are seeing

nationalism kick in. How worried are you?

JOSE ANGEL GURRIA, SECRETARY GENERAL, O.E.C.D.: We're seeing the best and we're seeing the worst, and I think the best in the ingenuity, we actually

were able to develop vaccines in one year, and that is being rolled out now, but now there are problems are production, et cetera, but this

concentration of the vaccines in the hands of a few countries is really not good because we will not be over the hump. We will not overcome this

problem until everybody is vaccinated because we will give a chance to mutations. We will give a chance to variants and we have seen how bad that


So the outlook -- the economic outlook depends crucially on the question of vaccines, and of course, on the question of these big stimulus packages

like the one in the United States.

CHATTERLEY: You were just meeting at the G-20, so you've spoken to many of the leaders. Was there recognition there that more money is required? We

spoke to the CEO of GAVI, COVAX of course pushing out vaccines around to poorer nations. Is there acknowledgment that more needs to be done and


GURRIA: Julia, this is an enormous paradox. Fifteen trillion, with a T-R have been, you know, used to fight the war against the virus. Appropriately

so, and we are short, you know, 22 billion in the last count.

So a fraction of a fraction of the amount that has been used could actually fund the COVAX mechanism, and then of course, to makes it available to all

the developing countries in the world.

This is the -- this is the paradox. Out of the 15 trillion, only 153 billion are considered Overseas Development Assistance, ODA, that means

aid. That's one percent. One percent, and only a fraction of that is for health.

So we are underfunding health. We are underfunding the fight against COVID and that is of course a very bad choice of priorities.

CHATTERLEY: What were they saying to you at the G-20? Because I'm sure as always you were vocal in your views that more must be done.

GURRIA: Well, they were acknowledging that it's a paradox that we're acknowledging that they have to shift, and, you know, I hope that now that

there are a number of reactions, and the U.S. announced, Canada announced, Germany announced they were all going to dedicate -- France announced, the

U.K. announced that they were going to fund COVAX to a greater extent, I hope so, because it would be a tragedy if we actually had the availability

of the vaccines, and we did not have enough funding to be able to provide them to the least developed countries in the world.

CHATTERLEY: It's time to -- what we are saying in terms of climate action as well, there is a difference between the commitment and then the

execution to follow through on your promises and again, you at the O.E.C.D. have been incredible on the forefront of saying, look, we need to carbon

tax. We need the removal of subsidies for fossil fuels. The price of carbon has to go up somewhere between $25.00 and $75.00 a ton.

Again, what was the response to this, and can we get action?

GURRIA: Well, again, people acknowledge the fact that it is needed, but, you know, our -- fighting COVID is the most urgent, the more immediate task

we have, but the most important intergenerational responsibility is to protect the planet, to preserve the planet.


GURRIA: And for that, we need to preserve the fight against climate change, but also biodiversity, millions of vertebrates are in danger of

extinction, we're losing the coral reefs, we're losing the mangroves, we are using -- the oceans, you know, we've gotten so used now to say that

they're going to be by 2050, you know, there is more plastic than fish by weight in the ocean.

But the tragedy is that we don't get so angry and we don't rebel against this notion. It's almost become a cliche. Water, the quality of the air we

breathe every day, the soil.

Yes, it's the planet first and foremost, and again, it does not require that, you know, the countries put up as much as the $15 trillion that

they've dedicated to the fight against the virus, a fraction of that will do, but we have to get the priorities right.

And we also need to convince the leaders, convince ourselves that that is the single most important priority that we have for the medium and the long

term. But the long term starts today, the long term starts with the decisions and the definitions that we have today.

This is why the Biden Summit, we can call it that way is so exciting because it's a game changer. It's completely turning the expectations

around. And now, with the United States leading the charge rather than holding everything back, this is the big game changer.

And with China joining in, we have the first and the second largest emitters of CO2, then that will really change the game.

CHATTERLEY: Is China ready to change the game? Really?

GURRIA: I believe that, number one, China had already announced that they were going to go neutral by 2060. But right now, following the visit of Mr.

Kerry, and the fact that there is this Summit that everybody is working towards this objective, which is to say is intergenerational, it is not

just about today, I believe, yes, that they will join, and also because the peer pressure will be enormous, not only for China, but for everybody else

in the world who may be lagging behind so far.

CHATTERLEY: We shall see. Pledges aren't commitments, but we have to keep pushing.

Angel Gurria --

GURRIA: We started by putting a big fat price on carbon, that is big and that means a big fat tax on carbon.

CHATTERLEY: And with you, a big fat price on carbon. Angel Gurria, sir, thank you so much for your time today, and thank you for your work at the

O.E.C.D. as well. Many years of commitment and passion. The Secretary General there of the O.E.C.D., thank you.

The market opens next. Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. U.S. markets are up and running on this Earth Day. No Green New Deal on Wall Street. Stocks searching for

direction after an across the board rally yesterday. Yes, nothing earth shattering about those moves.

Ready to commit to any sustained moves higher right now after the recent record run. U.S. jobless claims, however, reflecting a more bullish case

for the economy. Claims still highly elevated, but below the 600,000 level for the second straight week. That's another pandemic low.

In the cryptocurrency space now, what I've been calling the Cabbage Patch Kid of Crypto Land, Dogecoin falling another 10 percent today. That was

Brian Brooks to be fair. Its market cap falling by some $15 billion since Tuesday so dog days for Dogecoin and rough times for Bitcoin, too. Sorry.

The crypto leader is struggling to hold on to the $55,000.00 level, down some 11 percent from record highs hit last week. Investors taking increased

notice at the recent divergence, too between Ethereum -- Ether -- and Bitcoin. Ethereum rising some 50 percent against its crypto rivals since

the beginning of the year.

When you look at how the Ethereum blockchain is relied upon, whether it's by smart contracts in so-called decentralized finance or NFTs, non-fungible

tokens in the art world and beyond, you'll see why traditional financial companies like Mastercard and JPMorgan are taking note. They and others

have recently invested some $65 million in ConsenSys, a major blockchain player in the space and Joseph Lubin, the CEO of ConsenSys and co-founder

of Ethereum.

Joe, fantastic to have you on the show once again. This is a take two because we lost you last time and congratulations on the investment. Just

explain to us what decentralized finance is and why some of the biggest players in traditional finance are seeing perhaps an opportunity, but also

a threat.

JOSEPH LUBIN, CEO, CONSENSYS: So similar to how the web and the internet democratized access to information, the ability to process information,

decentralized finance is just an entrepreneur's way to have direct access in terms of the next generation financial system -- we are sitting in a

paradigm shift. A paradigm shift exacerbated by COVID. The shift is about moving from analogue trust systems to subjective trust systems and

decentralized protocols like blockchains, like the Ethereum network and Bitcoin.

Essentially enable a new kind of trust and that kind of trust, in turn, enables digital scarcity, currencies, and other kinds of digital assets and

software engineers are able to build very similar kinds of --

CHATTERLEY: Let me interrupt you again because the Gremlins are back and we are struggling to hear you once again. I am sorry to you and I am sorry

to our viewers, we are going to take a quick break. We're going to try and fix it and we will be back. Joe, do not move a muscle.

Stay with FIRST MOVE. We're on the case.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. Joseph Lubin is CEO of ConsenSys and a co-founder of Ethereum, and I think third time lucky, you are back

and that we can hear each other. And Joe, you're going to be hearing this description of decentralized finance in your sleep after this.

So a third time lucky. What do we need to understand about decentralized finance and the power of the future of finance it represents?

LUBIN: Thanks, Julia. So just the same way that the web brought democratization to access to information and the ability to publish

information, decentralized finance represents the democratization of the financial infrastructure for the planet, enabling technologists and

entrepreneurs to essentially do what they do best, which is be creative in building new systems in essentially a paradigm shift.

We are exacerbated by COVID, experiencing a paradigm shift in the nature of trust on the planet moving from subjective trust to automated and objective

trust systems. And these systems in the form of Ethereum and Bitcoin, enable digital scarcity, which enables cryptocurrencies, Central Bank

digital currencies, and financial protocols that can be built similar to Lego blocks for lending, borrowing, insurance, decentralized trading of

tokens, and they can be wired together by entrepreneurs in incredibly innovative ways.

And so decentralized finance is replicating the use cases of centralized finance with just far greater efficiency.

CHATTERLEY: It's a whole new financial system that's being built to your point and people can take out loans, they can take out insurance. But at

the core of this is the point that you made about trust, you're effectively cutting out the middleman of whichever it is and the power of blockchain

technologies that everything is recorded. Everyone can see what's going on. There's no hidden aspects in this market.

LUBIN: That's true, in the sense that everything is non-reputable and recorded on a public ledger, at least for the public networks. But they're

just like in the traditional financial system, there are ways to encrypt information so that private information is not disclosed and technologists

are building layers and layers of privacy and confidentiality on to these open systems.

We, at ConsenSys have built a system called Quorum, which is based on the Ethereum technology, which enables private, confidential transactions to be

done on different kinds of blockchain systems, and that's one reason why major financial institutions are attracted to this technology.

CHATTERLEY: I mean, it's a market that's growing incredibly fast. It's able to cross borders in a way that traditional finance doesn't. But one of

the other aspects and it ties to what we're talking about there is this idea that it is self-policing. What do we mean by self-policing?

LUBIN: So in the current system, regulators need to often protect consumers from financial institutions that may, for instance, be in custody

of the assets of those consumers. And in a world in which wallets can be constructed so that people can self-custody their own assets where

protocols can be built, where the rules are actually built into the software, so you simply can't do things that are illegal.

That is a world where the regulators are going to have to have discussions with the technologists about the fact that essentially, we're on the same

side and we want the same thing, the same sort of protections and enablement for the consumer. And that there may not be as much reason to

make restrictions and to reduce the fluidity of innovation by external rule systems and simply the rule systems can be much lighter weight, because the

systems are more robust and more protective of the consumer and the systems can be built right into the software.

CHATTERLEY: Oh, that's a tough message to deliver to a regulator, you can be hands off, because -- which is okay.

LUBIN: Regulators, so they can't be hands off. What they need to be is tech savvy. They need to be helping design protocols, helping to understand

the technology and understand how the technology fits into the political philosophies of their particular nation state.

And so it'll be less about writing laws and more about building the understandings into the software along with the technologists.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, understanding the basics of finance and technology, which arguably should be the case in traditional finance, too. It's just not

worked so well, perhaps at times in the past.

Joe, I want to get your view on what we're seeing because the on ramp for many people to understand this space is what we're seeing in terms of

digital assets or cryptocurrencies trading. What do you make of what we're seeing in the market today, whether it's Ether or Ethereum, depending on

your choice of word, Bitcoin, Dogecoin. Joe, what's going on?

LUBIN: What's going on is a crossing of the chiasm. Blockchain technology is a disruptive technology. Cryptocurrencies are disruptive. Decentralized

finance is disruptive. Non-fungible tokens is a profoundly disruptive technology. They are essentially holding hands in crossing the chiasm into

popular culture.

Dogecoin is a beautiful example of a meme that has been embraced by some of the biggest megaphones, the biggest pop culture advocates in our space:

Mark Cuban, Elon Musk and Dogecoin, Bitcoin are powerful memes that have significant functionality, even though Dogecoin is sort of a play token.

Ethereum is also --

CHATTERLEY: What is the functionality in Dogecoin?

LUBIN: It's actually not very different from the functionality of Bitcoin. It's just the Bitcoin has been much more accepted as money and Dogecoin was

started as essentially a playful meme. I would argue that both are enormously similar and distinguished because they don't have a lot of

functionality other than this consensus that they're sort of a money. They're distinguished from --

CHATTERLEY: That's a compliment to Dogecoin and an insult to Bitcoin perhaps.

LUBIN: So I believe that Bitcoin is an incredibly powerful meme. I think of Bitcoin as a non-fungible token, the whole Bitcoin system is a non-

fungible token. It's been fractionalized into little Bitcoin pieces, so that can be owned by so many people. And just like a really valuable piece

of art that might be encapsulated in a non-fungible token, people are sharing ownership of Bitcoin, similar to how they share ownership of gold

on the planet.

CHATTERLEY: Do you think all the prices of these things rise -- continue to rise?


LUBIN: Absolutely. And we're at a paradigm shift as I indicated. We're moving from old money systems, centralized financial and economic systems

to new decentralized protocols, which have much more trust built into them.

And so, money that is sort of end of life-ing, after 70 to 80-year debt super cycles, that is not yielding very much is giving way to new forms of

money that, according to supply and demand are heavily in demand and are rising in value.

In addition to that, they are offering yield to many investors in these decentralized finance protocols. And so, where would you want or what sort

of money would you want to hold? Would you want the old decaying money from a system that is the end of life-ing? Or would you want to hold the money

that is the currency of the new decentralized protocol realm?

CHATTERLEY: End of life-ing. Very quickly, because it is Earth Day. Joe, one of the big criticisms from those outside of the crypto space is how

energy intensive it is. It's not a clean technology. I know you, Ripple, Coinshares have joined the crypto climate accord and say that you can make

the cryptocurrency industry entirely run on renewable energy by 2025. Really?

LUBIN: Oh, yes. So that's easy for the Ethereum protocol. It's going to be much, much harder for Bitcoin because they are so entrenched in this proof

of work system, which burns a ton of electricity.

Ethereum is getting much more scalable, it's going to be hitting hundreds of thousands of transactions per second in the next six to nine months, and

it is doing that by implementing layer two technologies, which are much more efficient sitting on top of layer one, which continues to be less


Layer one is evolving to the next generation of the protocol, Ethereum 2. Ethereum 2 will be orders of magnitude less expensive in terms of

transaction costs and less consumptive in terms of energy.

So Ethereum's energy problem is largely getting solved as we speak and will be solved in nine to 12 months.

CHATTERLEY: Yes or no answer because I'm going to get shouted out. Does the energy problem for Bitcoin impact the price? Yes or no?


CHATTERLEY: That's the key. Joe, great to have you on that. Third time lucky, we made it work. Joe Lubin, CEO of ConsenSys, and co-founder of

Ethereum. Great to chat with you. Thank you.

Back after this. Stay with us.


CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. JAPAN coming to the Climate Summit with a new goal, pledging cut greenhouse gas emissions by 46 percent by the

end of the decade. A goal based on carbon levels from 2013.


CHATTERLEY: Business also getting on board, Japanese drinks giant, Suntory saying it will cut emissions from its direct operations by 50 percent by


Joining us now is Takeshi Niinami, he is the CEO of Suntory, also economic adviser to the Japanese Prime Minister. Sir, fantastic to have you on the

show as always.

Suntory joining the 50 Club, the 50 percent reduction in emissions by 2030. What's it going to take in terms of commitment, investment and cost?

TAKESHI NIINAMI, CEO, SUNTORY HOLDINGS: Thank you, Julia. Good to be back.

It's a really tough goal, as a matter of fact, to achieve.


NIINAMI: But we have pathways already to achieve this goal by 2030. Such as actively introduce renewable energy globally, however costly it will be,

we will do that to promote a new technology. Technology matters a whole lot.

Think about 10 years' time, lots of talents, lots of investments, and a lot of public policies. I'm a strong believer that the technology will be a

key, including DX, and we will raise our radar farther to search for new technology by investing to ventures and the venture capitalists. And the

third, which is the most important, we will re-engineer our business itself so that we can focus on growth potential businesses, to generate more cash

to fund this sustainability effort and leveraging the post COVID tailwind.

So this is a key strategy initiative for Suntory.

CHATTERLEY: I love your point about innovation. I recently read Bill Gates's book "How to Avoid a Climate Disaster" and he was saying, "Unless

we bring the cost of green technologies or the green premium down by 95 percent through innovation, we will never hit the zero goal by 2050." Do

you think other chief executives -- do you think world leaders understand it is about innovation as much as anything else?

NIINAMI: I believe so. Whether agile or not, innovation is the only the key to achieve this goal, just like a hydrogen. It's a very costly now, but

in 10 to 15 years from now, there will be quite a build and will be much cheaper for everybody. I strongly believe in that kind of scenario.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, I mean, you're a trailblazer in terms of the targets that you're talking about. I think the elephant in the room, and you and I have

talked about it before -- China. If China is not on board, and not only pledging but committing and taking action on this, we're never going to

achieve these targets, too.

Do you believe China is ready to follow through, a necessity, perhaps for their country with pollution?

NIINAMI: I think that the China is now ready and they might lower from 2060 to 2040 to be more, you know, to become a big player in the world. So

they are ready to talk. But a key thing is how to formulate the rules, which are applicable to every country. That's an issue. So rule making will

be a fierce cooperation problem.

But having said that --

CHATTERLEY: But how do we -- please?

NIINAMI: Having said that, China should join and they signed already that they will join this kind of, you know, great effort to the world.

CHATTERLEY: How do we get the follow through? You can sign an agreement, you can sign a pledge, but to your point, there has to be some -- there has

to be some reason to follow through.

NIINAMI: Well, Julia, I think just like a CPTPP, there has to be a provision about sustainability. For example, CPTPP countries you have your

rules for monitoring way and bring the United States, I understand the United States will not join the TPP, but they can join the sustainability

rule making together, so economic zone with kind of geopolitical power will pressure China to work together, so we need an alliance together with the

Asian countries and European countries and the United States to work together, and then China will follow.

CHATTERLEY: And we hope for it. Sir, I want to ask you about the Olympics. I remember us talking about it in January, and you laid out four conditions

in terms of testing, vaccine distribution, controlling the virus and also test events.


CHATTERLEY: And I wonder whether it's too dangerous for the Olympics to go ahead. Do you think it's time to cancel the Olympics, sir?

NIINAMI: Well, that's a good question. I think it still depends on how the IOC is preparing based on the current schedule to hold the Olympics.

Nevertheless, as you said, the rapidly growing number of new cases, that is now leading the government to consider to declare another State of

Emergency, but I am still hopeful.

There are three conditions, one, taking care of the situation of the fourth wave now. Now is the most important for a realistic scenario to hold the

Olympics. Two, ensuring safety to players, and staff members and volunteers such as a daily PCR testing.


NIINAMI: We have the great case of Australia, you know, tennis Open Cup and that created a safety bubble.

Third, addressing the sentiment of people, and explain to Japanese people how the government and the IOC will ensure safety by holding the event, so

all in all, I think testing is very important, anyway, vaccine -- vaccination doesn't guarantee safety anyway.

CHATTERLEY: No. I think as you just mentioned there, the bar is high, and fingers crossed Japan can achieve it and get the games on the road and


Takeshi Niinami, great to have you with us, sir. The Chief Executive Officer of Suntory Holdings. Always, great to have you on the show.

NIINAMI: Thank you.

CHATTERLEY: All right, that's it for FIRST MOVE. Stay safe.

"Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is next, and we'll be back tomorrow.