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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Leaders of G20 Nations Gather in Person in Rome; Apple and Amazon Sales Take a Hit, so do their Shares; Mark Zuckerberg Moves to the Metaverse to Rebrand Facebook. Aired 9-10a ET

Aired October 29, 2021 - 09:00   ET



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN BUSINESS ANCHOR, FIRST MOVE: Live from New York, I'm Julia Chatterley. This is FIRST MOVE and here is what you need to know.

Political pantheon. Leaders of the G20 nations gather in person in Rome.

Supply shocker. Apple and Amazon sales take a hit so do their shares.

And Meta metamorphosis. Mark Zuckerberg moves to the Metaverse to rebrand Facebook.

It's Friday. Let's make a movie.

A war, welcome once again to FIRST MOVE this Friday where we are already talking about the weekend. Why? Well, we are still working on for the G20

leaders coming up this hour. We'll have the latest from Rome with COVID recovery and climate, all up for debate. President Biden meeting with the

Pope at the Vatican just a short while ago. The President also praying, I think, for a breakthrough in D.C. where divisions remain within his own

party over his signature at spending bills.

We're also on the COP 26 countdown with the climate catastrophe alarm already ringing loud and clear. We are all about finding the right

solutions on this show, and to help us today, sustainability sage. The former Unilever chief, Paul Polman and author of new book "Net Positive"

will tell us how CEOs especially can reduce their carbon footprint.

But first, of course, you need to know your shoe size, and that is where climate tech firm Persefoni comes in, helping big companies measure the

damage and tackle it.

The climate on Wall Street fall like. The NASDAQ set to pull back from record highs after Halloween like earnings from the two tech giants, Apple

and Amazon, both warning that supply chain disruptions limited sales in the past quarter. Shares of both firms down sharply in premarket trade. It's

all relative. Remember these two have completely soared this year.

Fright night over in Europe, too, with new numbers showing Eurozone inflation at 13-year highs, prices and global inflation, another thing

we'll add to the G20 agenda. It's a full one.

Let's get to the drivers because that's where we begin.

Leaders of the world's biggest economies gathering in Rome today, ahead of the first in person G20 Summit since the pandemic began. Though some of

course, will be joining virtually. It's the second major overseas trip for U.S. President Biden, who will travel directly from Rome to Scotland for

the COP 26 Climate Talks.

His first meeting, as I mentioned already today with Pope Francis and Ben Wedeman joins us from Rome. Ben, great to be with you, a busy morning for

President Biden. An emotional, deeply religious man himself, of course, I think meeting the Pope once again will be an incredibly special moment.

Many of the discussion topics though, with the Pope, similar to what he is going to be discussing with the G20 leaders whether it's climate recovery,

or whether it's tackling vaccine inequity. Many things to discuss over the coming days.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, in fact, President Biden, who is normally late for most events arrived right on time

at noon for his meeting with Pope Francis. This isn't the first time the two men have met, but it is the first time they have met Biden as President

of the United States.

Now, the media was not allowed to see the moment when they actually met in the Apostolic Apartment, but we understand that they discussed climate,

poverty, social justice issues that the Pope has been quite outspoken about, and certainly recently, he gave a statement that was very blunt. In

that, for instance, he was calling for pharmaceutical companies to share the formula to the COVID vaccines with developing countries so they could

produce vaccines themselves.

He also called for the powerful countries of the world to stop using sanctions as a weapon against other countries because as we've seen so many

times, sanctions are very blunt weapon that oftentimes hurts people more than those in power.

So, this, we understand was a cordial meeting between the two men. President Biden, of course, is a regular church going Catholic and so, yes,

this was a meeting of great emotional value.


WEDEMAN: But also given Pope Francis's advocacy for fighting climate change, it is a good boost before he goes into the meeting tomorrow, where

they might -- he might be dealing with some among the G20 leaders who aren't quite, shall we say, enthusiastic when it comes to the fight against

climate change -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. And of course stopped on the Hill and announcing the framework at least for a monster $555 billion portion of his spending plan

arrangements that will tackle climate specifically.

Ben, onwards to meetings today as well. He is going to be meeting, I believe, Mario Draghi, the next leader, of course, to discuss what?

WEDEMAN: Well, first, he will be meeting with the Italian President, Sergio Mattarella and then he will be meeting with Mario Draghi. Now, Mario

Draghi, prior to this meeting, has come out and said that the G20 meeting is going to be a new chapter in multilateralism after years of isolation --

isolation under Donald Trump's America First policy, but also isolation as a result of the COVID pandemic. We shall see if his wish actually comes

true, however.

And then he is meeting with French President, Emmanuel Macron, and of course, there is that very touchy subject of that $60 billion French

submarine deal that France had concluded with Australia, and then Australia and the United States behind France's back concluded another deal, and

Australia canceled the French deal.

So there is a lot of bad blood at the moment between the United States and France over that deal, and we understand that the Americans may be offering

to provide logistical assistance and other forms of support for France's counterterrorism activities in Africa -- Julia.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, so we actually have live pictures as you mentioned. Now, American President Joe Biden set to meet imminently the Italian President

Sergio Mattarella at the Quirinal Palace. I believe we're seeing her live pictures of him there walking, about to make that greeting, I believe as

Ben was just saying there ahead of that meeting with Prime Minister Mario Draghi, and of course, then Emmanuel Macron, the French President, too.

So a whole host of Presidents, we can see him now walking, not quite sure how close he is actually to officially greeting or being greeted by the

Italian President, but we should see him momentarily.

We can stay with it for a few moments here just to see whether we get it.

A laughing and smiling Joe Biden there as you can see.

No, we'll move on. Ben, I'll thank you and we'll just keep those pictures in vision for our viewers just in case so we see that handshake there.

Ben Wedeman. Thank you so much for that.

One of the noticeable absentees from the in person Summit, as Ben was mentioning, Chinese President Xi Jinping, he decided to attend the meeting

via video link.

The leaders of Russia, Japan, and Mexico are also not traveling to Rome.

David Culver, joins us with more from Shanghai as we allow Joe Biden there to walk what is an extended red carpet there, let's be clear.

David, and also, I think context with President Xi Jinping is important, too.

President Xi has not left China since early 2020, so not a surprise not to see him attend these meetings in person.

DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you're looking at those live pictures of President Biden waiting to shake hands, as you point out, there

will be no handshake from President Xi.

You're right, he is not leaving China. He hasn't left since before the pandemic, and so it's not surprising that he is not going to be attending

that G20. We do not expect him to attend COP 26 either. That doesn't mean there aren't contributions and there aren't dialogues and exchanges to take

place. In fact, just a few moments ago, we learned that President Xi just got off the phone with Boris Johnson at the U.K., a few days ago speaking

with Macron of France. He spoke in September with President Biden.

So he has been making the rounds, if you will ahead of this, because one of the most important parts of the G20 can be those side meetings where they

have the one-on-one opportunities.

Now, why is he not going? That is the question. Beijing, of course, does it put up too much information, Julia, on these things. But you can say

perhaps it's because there's a recent COVID outbreak, a surge in Beijing and scattered throughout the country right now. And if you compare the

numbers to other countries, not all that bad, double digits daily.

But for China with this zero tolerance approach, it is an issue. And so they're clamping down once again, or perhaps it's because, why would you go

to a party when everyone is talking about you? I mean, that's going to be the reality for a lot of these leaders. They are talking about how to deal

with China and strategizing their coalition, because, of course, with President Trump, there really wasn't that much unity in coming up against



CULVER: Now, under President Biden, that's been a different approach. He has been trying to engage a lot of the other world leaders to have a solid

and unified approach when it comes to dealing with the People's Republic of China.

And there is also the reality that going forward, President Xi has a lot of dealings to work out with regards to certainly climate, and trying to

stabilize the domestic region here. I mean, that's the other part of this, Julia, is when you look at him, not going and not making these dealings

with other leaders, well, that plays right into the nationalism that's been growing here, and it certainly shows that he is not willing to necessarily

meet them on their terms, if you will, physically, and ultimately may wait for them to make visits to China.

CHATTERLEY: And perhaps that's for some, at least, the international perception, too, particularly as we head into COP 26, the lack of presence

of Xi Jinping is a message to say, look, you've had all you're going to get as far as China is concerned.

How true is that in practice, David, do you think?

CULVER: I've been speaking with a lot of experts, you know, some of the folks who are even involved in some of the dealings when it comes to

climate, and I think you actually may see more coming out of China.

I know, right now, they've put forward where they're not going to be investing internationally, for example, in future coal power plants.

Domestically, a very different story. In fact, we did a trip two years ago, an investigation into Inner Mongolia. China had pledged at the time that

they weren't going to be going forward with many more coal power plants. What we saw there were new construction, coal power plants going up, a lot

of mining underway, so they clearly were still moving forward in that direction. And domestically, it's required.

I mean, they've even tried to rein back some of the emissions as the biggest polluter in the world, but they had a massive power outage. I mean,

this was a crisis that they had in recent weeks, where they had folks trapped in elevators, traffic lights going dark. All the folks in those

regions at the north, especially panicking as winter's cold was moving in.

And so that had to be powered back up again, and they realize, it's just a very difficult thing to move off fossil fuels. It doesn't mean though they

are not moving forward rapidly with renewables. I mean, they have an incredible trajectory going forward with the production and implementation

of wind and solar power, and you're seeing that here.

So I don't think necessarily, that they're done putting forward their commitments or their pledges. You may actually see a COP 26 that there are

going to be some new announcements coming forward from China. And interestingly enough, when you talk about all the other issues that China

is facing in the world and the contentious atmosphere between the West and China, this may be the one area -- talking about climate, battling climate

change, in particular, where you find agreement, Julia, and they may come together on this and show that dialogue and cooperation is possible, if

only we're talking about saving the planet.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, just one area where they can discuss. What we've been showing, as you've been talking actually is the official handshake, as you

said. It may not be happening between Xi Jinping and President Joe Biden, but it's certainly happened between the President of Italy and the

President of the U.S.A. there, just the President there, President Mattarella just adding his mask back given how close proximity the two

gentlemen are standing in.

We've also seen the two greet members. The President of Italy there shaking hands with the likes of Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, Antony Blinken, of

course, the Secretary of State, and now, the two gentlemen walking away.

It is set to be a 20-minute meeting before President Joe Biden goes on to meet to Prime Minister Mario Draghi as we've already discussed, but you can

see the two gentlemen leading out those that they've already said hi to , and moving out of that room there.

So we will move on. We will allow those two gentlemen to have their brief meeting, not quite to time, I do believe they are about 20 minutes late now

-- running late, despite the on-time meeting for the Pope there, but as we said, a busy day for Joe Biden and it continues, and we won't come back to

that later on in the show.

David Culver, for now, thank you for that.

Okay, let's move on. Facebook facelift. Mark Zuckerberg rebranding his social media giant with a new name.


MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO AND CHAIRMAN, META: To reflect who we are and what we hope to build, I am proud to announce that starting today, our company is

now Meta.

Our mission remains the same, still about bringing people together.


CHATTERLEY: Meta -- Brian Stelter joins us with all the details.

We are both wrong actually, Brian, but you were closer. I tried to work out whether that was an avatar of Mark Zuckerberg or it was him, himself. But

he said he joined the Metaverse there.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Right, right. He is smart to be demonstrating what this is. I know that the savvy response is, it's a

distraction with Facebook's troubles and that is definitely true on some degree.


STELTER: But let's look at what else this is, Julia. This could be a milestone for virtual reality. He is committing tens of billions of dollars

in the next years to come on building out this mixed reality between virtual and real world, augmented reality/virtual reality. They call it the

Metaverse, a melding of all of it and he wants to have an operating system for the future.

I was so struck in his comments yesterday about how he feels like he is at the boot -- under the boot of Apple and Google, you know, because those

companies control the phone software that Facebook uses to track all of us and then target us with ads.

Zuckerberg does not want to be under Apple and Google's control. He wants his own operating system. He wants his own platforms and that partly

explains the Metaverse.

Also, he clearly wants to build something new. He is sick and tired of all the negative press about Facebook, even though all that press is totally

well deserved, and he wants to change the story. He wants to change Facebook's story.

But I think it's important to say, Julia, as cool as this looks, and maybe it'll all come true someday, nothing about the new name Meta changes

Facebook's current problems.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and I couldn't agree more on that. And speaking of being a prisoner, I think to rivals' operating systems and Facebook being an app

on Apple, for example. I certainly felt like a prisoner when WhatsApp went down a couple of weeks ago and couldn't call people and couldn't do things

that I always do on a daily basis, and that's a critical point of this brand, we are not going to allow this to be a distraction, because this

whole week really for Facebook, outside of investor interest in the business is what else? What are the externalities for Facebook, for

Instagram, and for WhatsApp?

STELTER: And if you look at the Facebook stock, shares have rebounded to some degree in the weeks after those Facebook papers started to be

published by "The Wall Street Journal." Now, they're being shared by dozens of news outlets. We're going to continue to see as these big damning

stories in the days and weeks to come. Frances Haugen will continue to speak in the U.S., the U.K., and elsewhere.

The stories are going to continue, but the share price has reacted favorably to Zuckerberg's earnings report and then this Metaverse event.

And now the question is, you know, when can it get practical, right? When can all of these new ideas get practical?

' Zuckerberg didn't announce a new product yesterday that all of us can buy today. This is still a ways away. And it is raw. It is ripe for parody. I'm

sure "SNL" will have a lot of fun with the Metaverse announcement.

But you know, I do think from the investor point of view, there is some interest in what's going on here and there is some recognition that

Facebook's core ad business is performing relatively well, despite all of this bad press, despite all of this bad reality news for Facebook.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. It is performing incredibly well and that's part of the problem, isn't it, Brian? Meta is about the future and the Facebook Papers

quite frankly, are about the present and that needs tackling today.

Brian Stelter, thank you for that.

Okay, still to come here on FIRST MOVE, mixing the planet and profits. The former CEO of Unilever says doing good for the climate is good for


And the carbon calculator, the climate tech startup helping companies measure their emissions footprint.

That's all coming up. Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: It may be Friday, but we're already gearing up for a busy weekend ahead on the world stage. As we speak, world leaders gathering in

Rome ahead of the weekend's G20 Summit from Italy. Many will be traveling on directly to Scotland for the Cop 26 Climate Talks.

Speaking of which, the Cop 26 Climate Talks are a turning point for humanity, so says the British Prime Minister Boris Johnson, but with China

and Russia not attending, and India rejecting calls for a net zero carbon target, many are already voicing fears that the talks will fail.

My next guest says that's a mistake in a "Time" Magazine op-ed. He argues against writing off the talks before they've even started.

"We cannot afford to throw in the towel," he warns. And joining us now is Paul Polman. He's co-founder and chair of the consultancy, Imagine, which

helps businesses become a force for social good. He is also the former CEO of Unilever and author of "Net Positive: How Courageous Companies Thrive by

Giving More than They Take."

Paul, fantastic to have you with us on the show. You do argue, let's not be defeatist as we head into these talks before they've even begun, and you

give reasons, statistics for why the interest and the money that's being targeted towards climate change, and mitigating the effects is growing, and

it is growing fast.

PAUL POLMAN, FORMER CEO, UNILEVER: Yes, Julia, and thanks for the opportunity.

In fact, a year and a half ago when we were facing the dreadful COVID attack, if I may call it the pandemic, lots of people, often the same

people that are now talking at Glasgow was feeling, were saying that businesses would spring back to cost cutting and that ESG was dead, and

that we would see the same behavior as we saw in the financial crisis about 10 years before.

The opposite is true. We have seen countries now in the one and a half years' time, 30 percent of global emissions making net zero commitments by

2050. Currently, we're at 80 percent of the countries having made those commitments.

We see the same with companies where we have 20 percent of the biggest companies making these commitments. And in the financial market, we have

over $100 trillion, I would argue about half of the world's money making commitments to be net zero.

We've never seen that shift. Collectively, we've probably moved farther ahead than we could have thought at any time in history. Now, the problem

is that, collectively, the commitments that we are making are too far out, 2050, and they are not enough versus what the world actually needs.

Collectively, they are projecting in the next 10 years, a nine percent decline in emissions. For the first time, by the way, that we are showing a

decline with concrete plans, but we need a 45 percent decline.

That's why the G20 now, enrollments are important because they need to make a commitment to keep the one and a half degrees alive. They need to come

with some concrete things. Like for example, not financing coal plants abroad anymore, or reducing drastically the methane emissions.

And then Glasgow itself will be key, because there, we will ask concrete commitments from the countries between now and 2030. We will form broader

partnerships that are emerging to tackle these issues. And last but not least, put nature-based solutions on the agenda, which are proving to be

the most effective, lowest cost, and highest job creation.

So, this is all about opportunity and we are well out of the starting blocks.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, and concrete commitment, I think was the key phrase in that as well. I mean, you say in your op-ed, if we could take our recent

rate of progress and double it again over the next 18 months, then we could finally be on track.

So, for everything that we've seen, we still need to see double again what we've already achieved.

Let's talk about the business community in particular, because we have seen a huge shift, I think in the last 18 months from them in particular and the

big message that I took away from your book was that profits and the planet, they can go together and actually they can be mutually reinforcing,

and you did everything that you did just based strong conviction at Unilever.


CHATTERLEY: Now we've got far more proof that actually, there are benefits that can be had, and they can help businesses, too. Do you think businesses

really believe that today or are they just being sort of shoved and they still see it as a cost center for the most part, even if they're being

shoved by their shareholders, and they can see this?

POLMAN: Well, I think some things have changed. There are some businesses that embrace it more seriously than others, but increasingly so. We've seen

that being driven by probably three factors.

One is the direct effects of climate change is coming in every P&L, but 85 percent of the key business leaders are saying climate change is affecting

me now and it costs money. I certainly saw that when I was running Unilever, where probably every week or every other week, we had a supply

chain disruption.

The second factor is the financial market has moved, if you look at the pressure that is now coming in from the financial market on these

companies, they have seen not only the risk mitigation that needed to happen, but they increasingly see opportunities for companies that actually

position themselves well in the future, and value is created there.

And the third reason is actually the employees themselves. I have -- I cannot talk to any CEO anymore nearly on a daily basis who doesn't tell me

that he or she gets the pressure from their employees that just expect these companies to be moving forward.

So you see the commitments, but relatively few have made commitments shorter term, and put concrete action plans behind it, and this is

obviously what we now need to drive.

But major CEOs are discovering that many of these things they can do alone, and increasingly, they are joining these broader alliances like Race to

Zero or Race to Zero Breakthrough, or the Methane Alliance and many other things.

CHATTERLEY: I think one of the things that I liked about the book was that it just assumed the why. We know why we have to tackle this. We have to get

to the how.

And you've made really bold calls when you were at Unilever. You said, look, we're going to cut our environmental footprint by half, help a

billion people improve their health. You've also said, we're going to pay all direct employees a living wage by 2020 and you did it. And you also

said we also want to get our suppliers providing a living wage by 2030 as well.

I mean, these were incredibly bold calls, uncomfortable, I think announcements, perhaps at the time. And I think the message from the book

is too that it's okay to be uncomfortable with what you're announcing. You just have to go all out to meet those targets.

POLMAN: Yes, that is why we say in the book, "Net Positive: How Courageous Companies Thrive by Giving More than They Take," you know, it takes courage

to set targets that you know are needed versus targets you can just achieve, minimal targets you can get away with.

It takes courage to take responsibility of your total handprint in society, all consequences, intended or not.

I just heard your discussions on Facebook. It actually takes courage to work together with others in partnership to tackle these broader issues.

When you're not totally in charge or might deal with some inconvenience tools. So this book talks about just notes of personal transformation of

the CEOs as a company and ultimately, a systems transformation.

And then it doesn't shy away from what we call the elephant in the room, which is making the tougher calls to be consistent. You cannot on the one

hand, say I'll do very aggressively climate change activity to mitigate it, and on the other hand, financial trade association that's the opposite, or

money and politics, or avoiding taxes, or corruption, or human rights in the value chain.

And what we found in Unilever, which by the way, had a 300 percent shareholder return over those 10 years and the shareholders were pretty

happy in general, what we found was that when we attacked these issues, and work for optimizing the return for all of our stakeholders, that we

actually also were running our company better -- more motivated employees, better talent, attraction, more resilience in the value chain, more

innovative in dealing with these problems and that ultimately comes back to better business results.

And what we now see overwhelmingly, not black and white, but overwhelmingly is that companies that tackle these negative externalities proactively have

actually within their own sectors, a higher valuation than companies that don't, which also means that the financial sector has woken up.

I don't think they are driven by the morality of the story. That will take a while still, in my opinion, but they're seeing the enormous opportunity

now, because the cost of not acting has simply become significantly higher than the cost of acting and smart companies see that.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. I mean, you said it put you in a position at Unilever in order to be able to fend off being targeted by Kraft-Heinz in the end back

in 2017. But you mentioned Facebook, so I feel given your experience and your wisdom, I have to ask you, because I look at the share price action of

Facebook in light of everything that's been revealed over the past few months and I question investor commitment to externalities and harm that

companies can do. Do you see that as an anomaly, what we're seeing with Facebook??


POLMAN: Yes, unfortunately, I see it as an anomaly and perhaps be also the lack of transparency. It's very complex out there, very complicated, and

not fully transparent.

One of the reasons why we need to get common standards, a sustainable standard board, or the S.E.C., the European taxonomy, so that we can get to

a type of transparency and behavior that is consistent with what we say.

Here in the financial market, I'm sure that there -- which we also see in the fossil fuel industry -- there are some who want to optimize their

shorter term returns and go for these opportunities. But broadly, we see more of them moving to the longer term, and doing the right thing.

If you now see that in the last proxy season in the U.S., the questions that were being posed at these annual meetings were mainly around ESG

questions that we've never seen before. It is now the shareholder broadly that is demanding more rapid changes at a company level.

So, I think we're going in the right direction, but we still see these inconsistencies that we need to deal with. And frankly, we need to call

them out. You cannot on the one hand say, we're doing so many good things and connecting people on platforms, but then on the other hand, having a

child addiction or undermining democracy or hate speech. You know, you ought to know better by now.

And I think increasingly, we see that these companies are not only being called out, but employees are calling them off and that ultimately will be

reflected in the share price.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, that's our duty, I think, as consumers and as workers to spot the inconsistencies and where people aren't being true to their words

and an act on it.

The front page of "The Economist" this week says "COP-out." You are the counter to that Paul. We have to have belief. Healthy skepticism is

allowed. Nothing more.

Paul Polman, co-founder and chair of Imagine. Thank you and the book is worth reading. I enjoyed it. Thank you, sir.

POLMAN: Thank you. Appreciate it.

CHATTERLEY: Great. The market opens next. Stay with us.



CHATTERLEY: Welcome back to FIRST MOVE. U.S. investors are beginning to close the books on a profitable October. A weaker start for the S&P 500 and

the NASDAQ today, with the bulk of the losses coming in tech. Amazon and Apple sending the strongest signals yet that supply chain issues hitting

global businesses have extended into this current quarter. Shares of both have been sharply lower in early trade with Amazon share price now flat on

the year. But hey, let's be clear it is at $3,278.00.

Tech investors watching the action in the bond market, too, closely. U.S. benchmark 10-year yields back near six percent ahead of next week's

important Fed meeting -- 1.6 percent -- my apologies. Policymakers widely expected to announce that they will begin cutting back on bond buy.

Investors will also be looking for signs that Central Bankers are closer to raising interest rates next year.

Now, as you've heard a little earlier, President Biden met with Pope Francis at the Vatican. Among other things, they discussed climate change,

which is at the heart of the Biden economic agenda.

Meanwhile, in Washington, the President's infrastructure deal still hanging in the balance.

CNN's Kaitlan Collins is in Rome and joins us now.

Kaitlan, great to have you with us on the show. Climate actually the biggest chunk of the framework that they've agreed, but a framework isn't a

deal. He's had challenges with his own party. He has also had challenges -- the French President comes instantly to mind on the international stage,

too. How does President Biden enter these talks this weekend in your mind?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, there's a lot that he is juggling and he is coming with a far different message than the

one that he brought to the G7, of course, which we covered, you know, just about four or five months ago.

And a lot of that has to do with not just what's happening at home, but as you noted, what is happening abroad. So that is why this meeting that he

has with the French President in a few hours is going to be so closely watched, because it is the first time that the two of them have met ever

since that deal, of course, by France, where they had with Australia to sell them those nuclear or those diesel powered submarines was essentially

completely demolished by this new proposal where the U.S. is going to sell them nuclear powered submarines and effectively cutting France out of that

multibillion dollar deal.

And so we'll see how they try to patch things up today, because of course, the French have said they do still feel the sense of betrayal and the

question of whether or not they can trust the United States to keep them updated on matters like that.

And so it's not just that though, of course. That's just one moment that the President is having in this marathon of diplomatic meetings that he's

got going on over the next several days. And all of this is coming in the context of what happened as he was leaving Washington when it comes to his

domestic agenda, because he did make this last minute appeal to Democrats to try to get that passed and have something more solid on his hands as he

came here to Rome, and then, of course, onto that international climate conference in Scotland and that is something that Democrats said they were

not ready to do, because progressive said they were not going to vote on one bill, unless they had the assurances of those moderate Democratic

senators, for another.

And so the President has a proposal for a climate framework here, about $550 billion, a lot of money that the President and his administration is

putting toward curbing climate change. But whether or not that's enough for world leaders, since it is not something that has passed Congress yet and

you've seen how much these things have changed, you know, on an hour to hour basis almost back in Washington, whether or not that's enough for

world leaders really remains to be seen.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. I mean, they'll live in hope, I think that something on this can be agreed, certainly. Kaitlan, from your talks for those are close

to the White House, what would success look like? Whether it's on the G20 stage, or of course, when we're talking about climate as we head into COP

26, particularly when we know such crucial members of the G20 like President Xi Jinping are only going to be participating virtually.

COLLINS: The White House is certainly hoping to take advantage of the absence of Putin and Xi Jinping while they are here. They're saying that

the President is going to use that time to kind of work the room to talk to these other world leaders, to try to use those moments that often can be

critical in relationships between world leaders. It's those in person moments when they can often make the best case for their policies and their

agenda with other world leaders.

And so of course, part of President Biden's has been getting Europe altogether to take a stronger tone when it comes to China. That isn't

something that they've not always been on the same page about exactly. And so, that could be something that the President tries to use.

There could be some takeaways from this G20 that aren't tangible. If it is something like that where the White House does feel like they're more

effective at pushing that message, because those two leaders are absent from this.

And so one other of course that is more concrete is the corporate minimum tax, the global minimum tax, that is something that the President has

wanted other countries to sign on to, they want to have that established so countries or companies aren't going to other nations setting up their

businesses there.


COLLINS: And so that is really, really probably the only concrete one that the White House says is the most important, but also building these

relationships, trying to restore some trust that was lost in the withdrawal from Afghanistan, with the French dust up, of course, as well. Those are

the really the matters that he is going to be pushing here.

CHATTERLEY: Yes, it's such a great point when we come out of these G20 meetings, we're always looking for the concrete action that results as part

of these talks. But to your point, sometimes the intangibles matter more.

Kaitlan Collins, thank you so much for that.

And stay with CNN for more coverage throughout the day of President Biden in Rome.

Coming up after the break, calculating an invisible cost of doing business. How technology is catching up with good intentions when it comes to

measuring carbon footprints. That's next.



This video was posted on Twitter today by the climate action group, Insulate Britain. Two protesters are walking along a motorway south of

London to demand meaningful government action. And now, a U.K. Minister says Britain wants to be among the first countries to adopt global

standards for disclosing corporate sustainability.

The idea is to help investors compare the climate impact of companies in different parts of the world. The question is: How do you measure it? Well,

my next guest is using dynamic modeling to audit business sustainability. He says that helps companies meet their climate targets.

Kentaro Kawamori is the CEO of Persefoni and he joins us now.

Kentaro, great to have you with us. That didn't explain the science of what you're doing. So, just explain what Persefoni allows companies to do and


KENTARO KAWAMORI, CEO, PERSEFONI: Great to be here, Julia, and yes, it's a complicated topic.

If you're an operating company, let's say you're an energy for more even if you're a CPG firm, and you sell mac and cheese in stores. You are creating

an enormous amount of footprint. So, what our platform does is take in all of the activity data that those businesses are undergoing, whether that's

shipping products manufacturing products, using energy, and we turn that into verifiable and auditable carbon footprint numbers that are then used

in disclosures for financial regulators or for investors.

And on the flip side, as you just pointed out, investors are looking to figure out how do I compare different companies' climate footprints and

really their overall ESG frameworks and their footprints, and we are one of the first companies to really pioneer in a field called financed emissions



KAWAMORI: So we can actually take lending data, we can take investment data from some of the world's largest investors and banks, and turn that

into verifiable carbon footprint numbers that are then used in those disclosures as well.

CHATTERLEY: And how comprehensive is this? Are we talking fleet, logistics, operations, travel, production, maybe even suppliers? You pull

data points on all of those, and is it dynamic?

KAWAMORI: Across the board, it's very dynamic. It's constantly evolving. You know, the field of software and data as it pertains to climate change

and solutions that are helping solve and address the problem for businesses and governments, it is in its early stages.

We often say we're not even in ESG 1.0 right now, and we are certainly not even a Climate 1.0. So there's lots of work to do, lots more data to

collect, and lots more solutions like ours that have to be created, and of course, then spread into the market.

CHATTERLEY: I mean, I read an article that you -- an op-ed that you've done for "Forbes," and you were saying you got sick of seeing all these

announcements, but no one really following through with action. And one of the things that you got feedback from the companies was, yes, we want to

take action, but we just -- we don't know how to measure and we don't know how to act upon even the data that we do know that we have.

You're currently helping four of the world's largest banks, 10 of the world's largest PE firms. What about the energy sector? Or the miners --

some of the dirtiest. Are you helping them to?

KAWAMORI: We are, you know, the progressive ones. And you wouldn't believe or maybe you would believe some of the conversations we've had with some of

the biggest emitters in the world. Maybe seven months into our journey, we were engaging with one of the largest oil and gas firms and they actually

tried to get us to quasi greenwash their outputs and asked us to essentially use older datasets that were going to make their emissions

numbers look better than they actually were.

Unbelievable on the one hand, but also very much characteristic of their behavior in the past. But yes, we're certainly you know, very much working

together with some of the largest that are committed to transitioning to renewable energies, like EDF out of Paris, of course, one of the largest

providers of renewable energy in the world.

CHATTERLEY: I bet you won't name them. You probably shouldn't name them. I mean, the bad guys.

KAWAMORI: I can't name them in most cases.

CHATTERLEY: Never mind the good guys.

KAWAMORI: But, you could probably guess who they are and it's no secret. You know, companies like Exxon have just faced enormous pressure. And of

course, I've seen board of directors turned over as a result of some of that past behavior and failing to act on this topic.

CHATTERLEY: So when you see the Big Oil, you mentioned it, SO I'll follow your -- follow your lead -- up in front of Congress being asked questions

about things like misinformation, DO you think that's a good idea? Because even from the experience you're getting, there are still companies out

there clearly that are going, hey, how do you help us greenwash not actually, for the purpose that you're saying that your company was started

for, which is, hey, let's help you clean up and suggest ways that you can improve your carbon emission footprint.

KAWAMORI: Yes. You know, I think, when it comes to Big Oil and when it comes to net zero commitments, in general, it is sort of a wide spectrum of

good intentions, bad data, and sometimes just farcical behavior to be frank.

You have CEOs, especially in the energy sector, that don't really believe in net zero. They don't believe the energy industry can be decarbonized,

and I've had that conversation many times. I continue to have that conversation with them and try to educate them on the realities of it.

But, you know, there's a wide degree of spectrum, sort of in the maturity curve there. Some of them as they're committing are very intentful. You

know, and some of them aren't. But the other interesting thing is, these companies are so large, even if the CEO is setting the agenda and saying

these companies need to decarbonize, oftentimes, companies underneath that parent company or executives in the subsidiaries don't feel the same, and

their actions are meeting the commitments from their leader.

CHATTERLEY: Yes. Do you think there's a way for you to be talking to governments to say, hey, this is a way that we can standardize this --

obviously, the U.K. government is talking about climate reporting in the same way that they do financial reporting, because I know you're raising

money like crazy from investors, you're signing up big companies, too. I just somehow think that if we could square the circle on this and have

governments talking to companies, and standardizing the reporting around your kind of information and data collection, then we'd really see some


KAWAMORI: You're exactly right. Yes, a wholesale approach is needed here. And you know, you're seeing consumer trends demanding companies to produce

cleaner products and greener products, which is creating pressures on them. But we can't do this at scale and achieve, you know, the goal sent out by

the Paris Agreement in 2016 without governments. I mean, that's really critical and that's, of course what COP 26 is very focused on.

For us, our Chief Sustainability Officer is engaging actively with the E.U. Commission, helping them build their new frameworks that will roll out over

the coming year or two around corporate climate disclosures.


KAWAMORI: Personally, myself, I'm involved with some of the U.S. agencies. We're on record supporting S.E.C. chairman, Gary Gensler's comments for

carbon and climate disclosures here, but we're also working with global regulators in Japan and the State of California. So it's happening all over

the place.

CHATTERLEY: We're going to continue this discussion, my friend. Thank you for joining us today, and I know it was an early wake up as well. So I

appreciate you for that, too.

Kentaro Kawamori there, the CEO of Persefoni. Great to chat with you and we'll speak again soon.

We are back after this. Stay with us.



ELENI GIOKOS, CNN BUSINESS AFRICA CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Sustainable transportation, advanced exoskeletons, and smart robots.

This is what's on display at Dubai's GiTex Technology Conference.

GIOKOS (on camera): The pandemic changed our lives and amplified the use of technology, and leaders are here to discuss the new trends that will

transform our future.

GIOKOS (voice over): One topic getting a lot of attention is the future of work, whether at home, in the office, or possibly in virtual reality.

GIOKOS (on camera): Video conferencing platform, Zoom, helped lead the way in providing work from home solutions. I asked Abe Smith, the Head of

International about the next big idea and where the company is headed.

ABE SMITH, THE HEAD OF INTERNATIONAL, ZOOM: So the big idea is actually to become your communication system -- your video and your communication

operating system for life.

So what we mean by that is everything that you do requires communication, whether it's a simple birthday party to the largest, most important

presentation you make at the boardroom. That platform, that layer should be powered by Zoom.

GIOKOS: Let's talk about the competitive environments, because you know, you've got other players that are also thinking the way you are. And you

know, Zoom had an issue where you saw, you know, the firewalls weren't strong enough, and then obviously rectified that.

Tell me about your competitive space and how you're thinking you're going to stay ahead of the curve?

SMITH: The way we improve is real simple. We continue to be agile. We continue to be creative in how we develop products, like our Zoom phone

product or events products, how we create new features that delight and create an amazing experience.

We want the video experience to feel as if you're sitting face-to-face, side-by-side, as close to that experience as possible. And we think as long

as we continue to advance that kind of discipline in our approach to developing product, we'll do great.

GIOKOS: Okay, so let's talk about that. When you say you want me to feel like I'm with that person. So you're talking about virtual reality

experiences? I mean, right now, you just video. How are you going to take that forward?

SMITH: Well, that's a great question. You know, we want to be as cutting edge as technology allows for today. You know, we recently announced the

partnership with Oculus and how we look at things like AR/VR, but at the same time what that means is delighting the experience so that every

meeting is perfect. High quality, HD quality.


SMITH: It is secure, it is safe, it is easy to use and then as we continue to advance, maybe one day it is shaking a hand through the video, maybe it

is one day it is smelling the coffee. You know that's to come.

When technology is there, we will be there with it.


CHATTERLEY: And finally on FIRST MOVE, when Facebook announced its corporate name would become Meta, it led so instant unexpected winners and


On the winning side, the Canadian, Meta Materials, whose take surged as much as 25 percent late on Thursday and I am presuming because traders

mistook the name. It also spared a thought for anyone with an infinity tattoo. Twitter helpfully pointed out that they now own something that

resembles the Meta logo on their bodies.

Yes, you've been branded.

And, plenty of critiques saying that the name change is merely a diversion as one person clearly illustrated here.

I shall let you decided. Timing as they say is everything.

That's it for the show. Stay safe.

"Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is next.

Have a great weekend and we will see you on Monday.