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First Move with Julia Chatterley

Ukraine FM: Russian Forces On Border Not Sufficient To Invade; British Prime Minister In Battle For Political Survival; Markets Fear A Hawkish Fed Policy Statement; Fed's Powell Set To Brief Investors On Policy Path; U.S. Warns On Global Chip Supply; Apple CEO Tim Cook Targeted By Alleged Armed Stalker; U.S. To Arrange Alternative Fuel Sources For Europe; Global Vaccination Program COVAX Seeks $5.2 Billion. Aired 9-9:45a ET

Aired January 26, 2022 - 09:00   ET



JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN ANCHOR: Live from New York, I'm Julia Chatterley. This is FIRST MOVE. And here's what your need to know.

Tough talk. Ukraine and Russia meet as President Biden warns on sanctions.

Pandemic parties and politics. Boris Johnson refuses to resign over COVID rule break claims.

And Apple alarm. CEO Tim Cook targeted by an alleged armed stalker.

It's Wednesday. Let's make a move.


A warm welcome to FIRST MOVE once again. Great to have you with us this Wednesday as we follow three developing stories. Wild swings on global

markets as investors await today's key Federal Reserve policy statement.

Plus, the waiting game in the UK as Sue Gray readies her Boris Johnson lockdown brief.

And the ongoing geopolitical uncertainty over Ukraine with the west now considering sanctions against Russian Leader Vladimir Putin.

We are waiting also to hear from Russia's chief negotiator on Ukraine after talks with France, Germany and Ukraine in Paris. And we will take you there

live to that press conference room the moment that gets underway.

In the meantime, Yuriy Vitrenko is the CEO of Ukraine's state-owned energy giant Naftogaz. And he's going to be joining us later on in the show with

his take on all the tensions.

Plus, the defector weaponization of energy supplies to Europe.

A brief read flowery of activity in the meantime on global stocks as calmed. And futures are higher after another volatile session during

Tuesday's trades. Stocks attempted another dramatic late-day comeback, but they actually fell short this time around with the Nasdaq dropping as you

can see there, 2.3 percent.

There's a lot riding on tech earnings this week as we've discussed already so far this week. And so far, they've delivered. Microsoft currently up

some 4 percent premarket after reporting strong fourth quarter results and easing concerns over cloud computing growth going forward.

Supply chains, however, they remain a manufacturing headwind for the tech sector in particular. The U.S. Commerce Department warning the chip

inventories remain dangerously low and some global manufacturers have less than 5 days' supply. We'll be discussing very shortly, it's an ongoing

inflationary headwind for the Federal Reserve though as they set its monetary tightening course. More on all of that in just a moment.

But first, the latest on Ukraine. The Ukrainian foreign minister says Russia has not assembled sufficient forces to launch a full-scale invasion.

These comments come as officials from France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia are meeting in a bid to cool tensions. Meanwhile U.S. President Biden is

talking tough, warning any Russian action will warrant major repercussions.


JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There will be enormous consequences if you were to go in and invade, as he could, the entire

country or a lot less than that as well for Russia not only in terms of economic consequences and political consequences, but there will enormous

consequences worldwide.


CHATTERLEY: And CNN's Matthew Chance is in Kyiv for us and joins us now.

Matthew, great to have you with us. Let's talk about the Ukrainians first and foremost and the talks that are taking place today. I mentioned that

we're waiting to hear the Russian perspective on those talks and their negotiator. But does that in some way address the concerns that we've

already heard from the foreign minister of Ukraine this week that they're afraid of being left out of any negotiations and potential solutions too.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, they are concerned about that behind the scenes. Although, I think, United

States has done as good a job as it can do of trying to reassure the Ukrainians that will be nothing decided about Ukraine without Ukraine's -

without Ukraine's approval.

I mean, look, there are these negotiations going on today in Paris between France and Germany, Ukraine and Russia, and they're important because they

will be looking at deciding and trying to sort of resolve the problem in the Donbas area, which is for the most part occupied by Russian-backed

rebels or controlled by Russian-backed rebels. And they're going to be talking about a range of issues including the Ukrainian's access for

humanitarian purposes and things like that you know. And what can be done in that area to alleviate the suffering of the population that has been

suffering over eight years of conflict there.


But I mean we shouldn't confuse that with the main negotiations that are still kind of bubbling away in the background. And that's the written

response that we're waiting from the United States to be delivered to Russia, to Russia's core demands, its main demand being of course that NATO

doesn't expand any further eastward towards its borders and that Ukraine never, ever in the words of the deputy foreign minister becomes a member of

the western military alliance. There's going to be a written response to those demands from Washington. We're expecting that sometime towards the

end of this week.

And then, of course, that sparks off a whole round of additional negotiations to see whether any compromise can be reached on any of the

sort of paragraphs that have been -- that may be identified in that - in that briefing document. And so, you know, there is a sense in which -

excuse me -- the diplomatic channel is still very much - very much alive. Although, it does seem to be moving at quite a slow pace.

CHATTERLEY: It's fascinating, isn't it? I was poring over some of the comments that were being made on all sides yesterday. And the Russian

Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov's comments yesterday stood out -- I'm sorry, earlier today stood out. He said if there won't be any constructive

response, and the west will continue its aggressive line, then as the president said multiple times, Moscow will take appropriate response


What do you make of that, Matthew?

CHANCE: Well, there's the question. I mean, that this is the sort of, I suppose threat or promise that the Russians have been making since this

crisis was - was begun arguably by them saying that if we don't get what we want, if you don't meet our core demands, we will institute what they

called in the past a military technical response. And so, we don't really know what that is.

I mean, of course, the fear is that that response will be a military response and that the hundreds of those thousands of troops that deploys

across the border, mainly on Russian territory potentially with these coming into Ukraine, it could be activated, an order could be given, and

another invasion of Ukraine could get underway, either a small minor incursion or a much - a much broader one.

But that's not the only option that the Kremlin has. They could also you know do things like you know escalate the situation by deploying missiles

somewhere in the region. Possibly in Belarus, possibly in the enclave of Kaliningrad, possibly in Crimea. That they could argue would satisfy their

security concerns in Europe but would stop short of triggering any sort of sanctions that have been promised by the United States and by others if

Russia stages another invasion of Ukraine.

CHATTERLEY: Yeah. And being very cautious of the translation here, it's the position that they take that the west is the aggressor here and not vice


Matthew Chance, thank you for joining us from Kyiv there. We await that press conference as we both mentioned.

For now, this could be a make-or-break moment for British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. We've been saying that a lot though. We are awaiting the

results of an investigation into whether No. 10 Downing Street violated COVID restrictions by throwing parties while the rest of the country was

under strict lockdown.

Just take a listen to what the prime minister had to say this morning when asked if he'll leave office.



BORIS JOHNSON, UK PRIME MINISTER: No, Mr. Speaker. But you know since he asked - since he asked - since he asked about COVID restrictions, let me

just remind the House and indeed remind the country that he has been relentlessly opportunistic throughout. He has - he has - he has flip-

flopped from one side to the other.


CHATTERLEY: And joining us now from outside No. 10 Downing Street, CNN's Salma Abdelaziz.

Putting a brave face on it and continuing to pushback when he's being asked to resign. And we've seen that many times as well. He was also asked what

if the report when he receives it will he release. Will he release and allow the public to see? Sort of calibrated, I think, we can call the

response on that, Salma.

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN REPORTER: I would say evaded, Julia, to be frank, because it is a very critical issue here.

Let's first go through what's happening. Because these next few hours as you said could make or break Prime Minister Boris Johnson. There are now

two investigations into allegations of multiple parties taking place just behind me here, his office and residence.

The first, of course, has been going on for weeks now. That is the report led by senior civil servant Sue Gray, the Gray report. And that's the one

we're expecting any moment now.

And the separate one is the one that was launched yesterday, a police probe after police say that some of these events raised to the level that they

could have potentially breached COVID rules. That potentially Downing Street staff committed criminal offenses just to party.


But this Gray report, let's go back to it because that is what Prime Minister Boris Johnson's party is going to be parsing through very

carefully when it comes out. Yes, it's a civil report. So, it is independent in a sense but it's the prime minister who's going to get the

report first, and he's going to have two critical decisions to make, Julia. How much of the report to release -- and as you said, we got a very evading

answer there as to whether or not he's going release the report in its entirety or just a summary or a redacted version.

And then, secondly, when to release that report, Julia. Of course, opposition lawmakers are sitting in their seats. They are waiting for that

report. They want to go through it and be able to grill the prime minister, but also his own party here, Julia. It's making a very critical decision.

Is Johnson still the man? Is he still fit for leadership? Or do they need to take the steps necessary to push him out?

And we've already heard from the public, Julia. A snap poll. We just got the results of that this hour. Two-thirds of adults in the UK want to see

the prime minister resign. But again, it all comes down to the Conservative Party, his own party to decide whether or not Johnson stays in office.


CHATTERLEY: Yes. We await the delivery of the report and we do it when they decide to present it. And what they decide to present.

Salma Abdelaziz, outside Downing Street there. Thank you.

As we mentioned, a waiting game in the UK and on global markets, too. Investors braising for the Fed's new policy statement out later today. And

with apologies to Hollywood, investors fear a quote, "fast and furious" pace to monetary tightening.

Christine Romans is here. I think we have to stick to the actual title which is too fast too furious which is actually what investors fear. And as

you and I discussed yesterday, the Federal Reserve has got no reason to want to shock the markets or to create instability particularly in light of

what we've already seen I think over the last few weeks.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely. And they have to walk this really fine line here of showing the markets that they

are on the case of inflation but that they're not too much on the case of inflation, that it's something that seems really hawkish to markets.

So, that's kind of the interesting position that they're in right now. And don't forget, you know, this is like juggling flaming chainsaws for Fed

Chief Powell and policymakers because not only do they have to start signaling when they're going to raise interest rates. Of course, they are

not expected to raise rates today, but when are they going to start to raise interest rates, but they have to end their extra bond purchases,

right, that extra.

And then they have to start talking about when they're going to start to draw down all of the assets that they've piled up over the past couple of

years. So, there's three big things that have to happen here. And the Feds going to have to very clearly illustrate to the markets what they're going

to do about it.

It reminds me. It's so interesting, Julia. It wasn't really that long ago. Many of us who cover the bond market and cover the Fed you know at the

beginning of our careers. The Fed didn't even publicize what it was doing.

I mean, it wasn't until 1999 that they were very clearly saying what they thought about, expectations for the economy, and very clearly telegraphing

what they were doing. It wasn't until 2011 that they had a press conference. So, in a way, it's so interesting that we're in this moment

where the Fed chief is going to take to the cameras today and hopefully really clearly tell us what the Fed's plan is.

CHATTERLEY: Yeah. Financial crisis in `20 as we see monetary policy curtailed all of that.

ROMANS: Right.

CHATTERLEY: Now, it's about being as open - yeah. But that -- to your point, that's part of the problem now perhaps.


CHATTERLEY: Part of the challenge of the calibration of the response here comes down to supply chain issues and how quickly they'll leak out. We had

a conversation with the head of the World Bank last week. And he said, look, raising interest rates raises credit costs on a relatively higher

basis -


CHATTERLEY: -- for smaller businesses and these are perhaps some of the guys that can help address some of the supply chain issues. And well, we

didn't have - get an illustration of that, I think, overall with the supply chain issues in semiconductor chips and 5 days of inventory in certain


ROMANS: Yeah. And that's a report from the Commerce Department saying that some of these semiconductor manufacturers reporting about a five-day - less

than five-day supply of semiconductors on hand.

Just for comparison, before the pandemic in 2019, that was something like - I want to say, it was something like 40 days in 2019 and that was

considered just in time inventory. This is just kind of unbelievable.

There are some investments that are being made, don't forget, but these new plants in Ohio and elsewhere, they really won't be online and producing

semiconductors until maybe 2024. So, in the very near term, I think this is still going to be a supply chain issue this year especially for semis.

And the Commerce secretary pointing out, Julia, that it doesn't take much. It could be a tropical storm in Malaysia that could spread -- you know the

impact of that could spread around the world when you just have you know four or five-day supply of semiconductors on hand.

CHATTERLEY: Yeah. So many vulnerabilities when supplies that type, everything - everything is a problem.

Christine, thank you.

ROMANS: You're welcome.

CHATTERLEY: Now we're learning some disturbing details about a woman who allegedly threatened, harassed, and stalked the Apple's CEO Tim Cook for

more than a year. A judge now granted Cook a restraining order after the company said the woman trespassed on Cook's property.

CNN's Alison Kosik joins us now with the latest.


Alison, great to have you with us. The shocker for me beyond with the details that we got here was the fact that I just mentioned there that this

has been going on for a year or more.

ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. More than a year, Julia. Great to see you as well.

And we're learning about this through court filings that were made late last week in this restraining order that Apple has won. And we're learning

about the woman who is being accused, and CNN is not identifying her, but we are learning some of the language in this restraining order that say

that she has exhibited erratic, threatening, and bizarre behavior toward the CEO of Apple, Tim Cook.

Some of the things that are alleged, that she drove across the country from Virginia to California to contact Tim Cook, and on two occasions according

to these court documents, she trespassed on his property. The documents claim that she said she was his wife and that they had twins together.

In the filing, it's also believed at least through Apple that the woman may still be armed, may still be in the South Bay, San Francisco area, and that

she intends to return to the CEO's house or locate him in the future.

Now, the court documents also say that for more than a year that this woman sent threats directly to Cook, either through his e-mail directly or on

Twitter where she also included pictures of ammunition and a loaded gun. She would also tag Tim Cook in these tweets and sent him personal messages

that insinuated she wanted a sexual relationship.

And speaking of e-mails between the months of October and mid-November in 2020, the filing documents say that the woman sent Tim Cook nearly 200

emails that showed a, quote, "significant escalation in tone, becoming threatening and highly disturbing."

And it was only in October of last year that police actually detained her after she trespassed on his private property where she allegedly told law

enforcement, she could be violent.

Oh, there's more. One more thing.

The filing also claims that the woman tried to open fraudulent businesses in Tim Cook's name. And last month, she demanded that he pay her $500

million to, quote, "forget and forgive."

Now, there is going to be another hearing coming up on March 29th to see if this restraining order will be extended. Julia?

CHATTERLEY: Yeah. I mean it raises all sorts of questions about the level of protections that are in place for this kind of behavior.

Alison, thank you for that report there.

KOSIK: Sure.


Russia's leverage over Europe's energy supplies takes on a new dimension. We'll talk to the CEO of Ukraine's largest oil and gas company, Naftogaz.

And after shipping 1 billion doses to nations in need, the global vaccination effort requires a cash injection of its own. The head of Gavi,

the Vaccine Alliance later in the show.




In a better tone for U.S. equity market futures as investors await today's Fed policy statement and Fed Chair Jay Powell's news conference for

Tuesday's late day selloff leaves the Nasdaq down some 13 percent year-to- date.

The S&P 500 trading near that 10 percent correction level too. One of the worst starts to a new year on Wall Street ever, in fact. And you can see

that performance in front of you.

In the meantime, natural gas is up 7 percent on heightened fears over Ukraine and the potential for further pressure on European supplies.

Brent Crude trading close to $90 a barrel today too.

It was a direct consequence. The United States is investigating alternative fuel sources for Europe in case Russia cuts off its oil and gas over

further pressures.

The Biden administration says it's now working with supplies from the Middle East, North Africa, and Asia to bolster supplies to Europe. Russia

currently provides around one-third of oil and gas imported by the European Union.

And critics argued that certification if the controversial Nord Stream 2 pipeline will only increase Europe's energy dependency. The pipeline is

designed to deliver Russian gas directly to Germany through the Baltic Sea, bypassing Ukraine.

Joining us now is Yuriy Vitrenko. He's the CEO of Ukraine's largest oil and gas company, Naftogaz.

Sir, fantastic to have you on the show with us. Thank you so much for joining us.

We clearly have so much to discuss. But I just wanted to start by asking you, I know you have over 50,000 employees. You're a father. You're a

husband. How concerned are people? How afraid are you for your family at this moment?

YURIY VITRENKO, CEO, NAFTOGAZ: Well, I'm concerned, but we're not afraid. Because we understand that Russia invaded Ukraine eight years ago. We have

been living under this very concrete risk of further invasion since then. But at the same time, at the moment, we cannot see enough signs of an

imminent attack. So, we believe that despite all of the risks, it's more like a panic that is hurting Ukraine a moment than the real imminent threat

of further invasion.

CHATTERLEY: You also made some comments recently that I wanted to ask you about, which is that people shouldn't panic, that Russia can utilize that

kind of instability and insecurity with Ukraine, even perhaps to suggest a different leader for Ukraine, a different president, one that might have

sympathies or greater sympathies towards Russia. Do you see that as perhaps a greater risk?

VITRENKO: Yes, exactly because this panic hurts Ukraine economically, and that's what Putin wants. He wants some economic problems for Ukraine. So,

them, it's easier to overthrow the government. And then he would have a puppet government that would legitimize Russian -- control the Russian

troops here in Ukraine. So, that's why it's important to be strong and not to let it happen.

CHATTERLEY: There are other potential leverage points too. We spoke to the head of the IEA last week and he said that Russia's deliberately

restricting supplies of gas to Europe beyond the contract to the map. They could provide more, and they aren't. They've de facto weaponized the supply

of energy. You've been concerned about this for a long time and have been warning about this. Do you think this justifies your concern over the

certification of the Nord Stream 2 pipeline?

VITRENKO: Yes. I don't want to say I told you so, but that's exactly what we've been telling the U.S. government and the German governments for quite

a while. Putin used gas as a weapon even before the joint statement over the U.S. and German government. But after the statement, he started to do

it into more intensively and into the face of the entire world.

So, they decreased the supplies of gas. They blackmailed Moldova. They scared off some ships in the Black Sea that were doing some, I say, it's

mixed studies for us to produce more of Ukrainian gas.

So, they are using gas as a weapon as we speak. And then, of course, something that needs some reaction from the west.

CHATTERLEY: You might not be able to say I told you so to the United States because I think they share your concerns and have voiced that. But you

could perhaps say, I told you so to the German government. What is the new German government saying to you, and what assurances are they providing?


VITRENKO: Currently they're using this benefit of being a new government because I was telling the government. But again, their new government is

not that new any longer. So, that's why they also need to make this decision. They need to decide if they're wizards of free world or they want

to collaborate with Putin and with Russia in his fight with the free world.

So, in this particular case, we do believe and we're telling them that they should punish Russia for using gas as a weapon. They should also prevent

Nord Stream 2. And the gas problem in general to be above the rules in Europe because Nord Stream 2, for example, this project, is not complying

with the European rules at the moment. That's why it cannot become operating. So, it's a moment of truth for the German government because the

new German governed to show that they are with the free world and they deserve to be one of the leaders of the united Europe.

CHATTERLEY: You could argue it costs them and it costs the German public, others in Europe as well to if they do not certify this. But arguably, it

hurts Ukraine if they do. You've also said the certification of this is effectively a green light for Russia to launch a full-scale military

aggression. I'm quoting you. What do you mean by that?

VITRENKO: Putin, his plan was to build Nord Stream 2, then to move all the transit glows from Ukraine to Nord Stream 2. And then, he hoped and

probably he still hopes that again, European politicians will express some deep concerns, but these deep concerns won't stop Russian tanks.

So, basically, he will be able to get away with this other invasion. That was his plan. And luckily, Nord Stream 2 is not operating, and that's why

if Russia further invades Ukraine, it would affect energy trade with Europe and it would cause more than just deep concerns from European politicians.

Putin probably understands it.

CHATTERLEY: You know, it's interesting. Your earlier point about complying with EU law as well. I mean, part of this involves providing Europeans with

greater choice perhaps over where they get their gas. Do you provide a viable alternative?

VITRENKO: Yes, of course. Ukrainian's gas emissions system is much bigger than Nord Stream 2. It's currently underutilized. So, we have even free

capacity, like two times bigger than the whole capacity of Nord Stream 2.

Also, it's not that we want some kind of privileges. We say that their European rules - these rules are about a level playing field, some fair

competition, and offtake should be given a chance to decide themselves if they want -- even if they buy Russian gas, if they want to bring this

Russian gas to Europe - sorry, Ukraine, or any other pipeline.

And, by the way, what we're saying that maybe somebody hopes that Nord Stream 2 will help the market in the short-term bringing more gas. First of

all, it's not the case because Putin is also demanding long-term contracts, new commitments from Europe to buy more gas from Russia, and it really is

against the Green Deal agenda of the European Union. The comptonization initiatives. But at the same time, it just shows that Putin wants Europe to

be even more dependent on Russian gas supplies.

And if they're even more dominant, then they would further abuse the market, abuse their dominance to the detriment of consumers. So, consumers

will suffer. That's why nobody should have these illusions that projects like Nord Stream 2 above the rule - of law in Europe is somehow beneficial

to Europe. That's a very wrong idea.

CHATTERLEY: You have experience in dealing with Putin directly. You battled with him over gas transit contracts. I vividly remember. How do you meet

Vladimir Putin as an equal in these negotiations? What does the west need to be prepared to do in your mind, and are they doing enough today?

VITRENKO: You rightly pointed out that we have the successful experience when we made Putin pay $3 billion under the decision of the Stockholm

Arbitration that we wanted was the largest commercial arbitration in the world. They claimed over $100 billion and they lost. And we also made him

sign these new terms of contract. And a successful a recipe for success when you're negotiating with Putin is to be able to confront him, to be

able to say no, to have other options. So only then you have -- as is many other negotiations, you can have a proper positive result of such




VITRENKO: That's why -- yes, exactly. The west should not be afraid to confront Putin to show its strengths, and I am personally sure that the

west is much stronger than Russia at the moment, economically and (INAUDIBLE) wise. So, the free world should not be afraid to show its


CHATTERLEY: Yuriy, great to chat to you. Come back and talk to us soon, please.

Yuriy Vitrenko there, the CEO of Naftogaz. We'll speak soon.

The market opens next. Stay with us.



A program backed by the World Health Organization to get vaccines to some of the world's poorest nations is facing a cash crisis. The COVAX

initiative which has already shipped over a billion vaccine doses to poor nations in the world need as cash injection of other $5 billion to continue

its rollout. The money is needed to buy basic equipment, things like syringes. It says until the funds can be found, it can't accept any more

donations of vaccines.

Dr. Seth Berkley is chief executive of the Gavi Vaccine Alliance that co- leads COVAX.

Dr. Berkley, sir, fantastic to have you on the show. Firstly, congratulations to you and the team on delivering the 1 billionth dose. And

I know now that you've done more. But I believe we have to start this conversation with the desperately needed cash you require.

DR. SETH BERKLEY, CEO, GAVI: So, thank you, Julia, for having me.

And you're absolutely right. The role here is to try and make sure the whole world is protected because we're only safe if everyone is safe.

Now, the good news is we've had the fastest and largest rollout in history with the poorest countries, the AMC 92 having 45 percent coverage already

with one dose of 33 percent. But the low-income countries are lagging well behind that.


And so, we need finance to help accelerate their absorption to be able to buy more doses so that we can deal with boosters and potentially new

variant vaccines as well as finance to accept the donations that countries have generously made available but have not come with syringes or delivery

costs or insurance costs that are necessary to get those to the people who need them.

CHATTERLEY: Is that too much to ask for? That they do provide - yeah.

BERKLEY: You know, it's an interesting question. I mean, you know, the IMF did a study and talked about the cost of this pandemic to be somewhere

around $9 trillion. And the question we've seen is every time we have a new variant, we see shutdowns, we see economic distress, and the challenge for

us is to stop this pandemic so we can go back to normal. I would make an argument that this is absolutely cheap compared to the cost of just

continuing to have these new variants move through the populations and continue to cause a global chaos.

CHATTERLEY: Yeah. And I'll expand upon that. $4.5 trillion of that cost is borne by the richest nations in the world. So, this is not charity. This is

simply doing what's required to protect themselves. Never mind anybody else. Who's going to provide that $5.2 billion that you require? What kind

of response have you had since you've gone out there literally and said look, we can do this but we need more help?

BERKLEY: Well, first of all, I have to say that the donor community has been extraordinary. So, a year ago when we launched our first fund-raising

request, you know, at the end, we were able to raise more than $10 billion to buy the 2.8 billion doses that we have along with the donations. And

they did that when they didn't have place in their budget for that finance. The U.S., for example, $4 billion of support. So very, very generous,

understanding the importance of that. Of course, it's always a challenge when this is something that isn't planned for and certainly this pandemic

was not planned for. I know economic times are tough, but this is not only the right thing to do, but as you say, in a self-interested point of view,

we need to be doing that.

CHATTERLEY: Yeah. And you can compare what was a very generous amount of money given by the United States and we used those as an example to the $7

to $10 trillion that they spent supporting their own economy and their own people. So, again, keeping the perspective here on the amounts even with

the generosity that was provided is important.

What's the risk, Seth, that now that we're talking about third doses, booster doses even fourth doses in some country, the inequality that we've

seen that's been such a challenge over the past two years is exacerbated because that the richer nations are so focused on that. That again, we end

up neglecting the 1.2 billion people in the world that still haven't seen one dose.

BERKLEY: Well, the good news, Julia, is the industry has stepped up and we're seeing larger and larger productions. I mean, way back in the

beginning when we set our goals, we didn't even know if we could make a vaccine, much less the types of quantities that have been made. Of course,

we do have to worry about boosters, but boosters I think are now relatively factored in. Where we do worry about inequality is if it turns out that we

need new variant vaccines.

And obviously, those will roll off the assembly line in small numbers initially, and, again, we need to see that from most vulnerable people

everywhere in the world get those and not that they be used in just high- income countries because again we'll be in a position where we threaten the whole world if we don't use them as strategically as we can.

CHATTERLEY: Dr. Berkley, there's also a difference between providing vaccines, supplying vaccines and actually getting those vaccines into

people's arms, the logistics of this incredibly complicated and as you know better than anyone else. I was so heartbroken to read a story in December

of Nigeria having to destroy a million vaccine - AstraZeneca vaccine doses and they've had to do others because they're past their expiry. Can we

tackle that better this year and is that partly to do with what is being supplied? And actually, too close to expiry, and that should make it


BERKLEY: So, of course, what we need to stress at the beginning is that wastage has been extremely low up until now. There's always wastage with

vaccines. That's true in wealthy countries as well as in lower income countries, but countries have taken this seriously.

Now, sometimes they get vaccines and they just cannot roll them out as fast as they can, and then what we have do is see if there's other countries

that can take them, and that's what we've been able to do for most of the doses that have been refused, but not all of them. Also, at the beginning

in the original dose donations, we had a challenge with people receiving doses late in their cycle.


We've worked very hard with donors for two reasons. One is to get the cycle planning worked out so we know where we can send them, but also so

countries have time to plan. So that is getting better.

We want to see no wastage at all. These products are too valuable to be wasted. But again, there will be little. We want to keep it as minimal as


Lastly, your question about getting them into arms is the critical one. Developing countries know how to vaccinate. They need time to plan. There's

20, 25 countries that have low absorption now. We're stepping up working with each one for a plan, so that they can vaccinate their populations. I

have faith that they can do it. It just takes a little bit longer time.

CHATTERLEY: And, Seth, really quickly, and it goes to the point I think that you made about allowing these countries time to plan. You're talking

about wanting to create a vaccine pool, and we've got lots of different vaccines that need to be kept in different conditions now. Will this help

with that? We're going to send you x, this is what's required, this is when it's coming, go plan.

BERKLEY: Julia, that's exactly right. And we have fabulous vaccines as you know. The Pfizer vaccine that's quite common needs to be stored in minus 80

degrees. We've never done that before general vaccines. We've done it for Ebola. So, that took a lot of building up fridges.

We have other vaccines. Moderna, minus 20, AstraZeneca, 2 to 8 degrees. So, we have to make sure countries have adequate storage space for each one of

those vaccines and that the health care workers know how to use them. Over time we'd like to move to more temperature-stable vaccines and simplify the

regimen to make this as easy a rollout as possible.

CHATTERLEY: Fingers crossed.

Dr. Seth Berkley, thank you so much for the work that you and your team are doing all over the world. We appreciate you.

The CEO of Gavi there. Thank you.

BERKLEY: Thank you.

CHATTERLEY: OK. Let's take a final look at the markets before we wrap up here. So much welcome green on the screen for Wall Street in the early

trade. A positive tone now. A lot though could change if the Federal Reserve issues a hawkish policy statement later today. Don't be surprised

by a more measure that Fed turn. However, the Central Bank who may not have investors back this time, the so-called Fed put may be kaput. We certainly

don't want to derail the economic recovery with shock and awe-tightening. And I think that's the key point.

OK. That's it for the show. Stay safe. Marketplace Europe is next. And I'll see you tomorrow.