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First Move with Julia Chatterley
Bucha's Mayor Describes Horrific Events, Alleged War Crimes; Thousands of Refugees Returning to Ukraine from Poland; EU Leaders Call for Further Sanctions on Russia; Ukrainian Lawmaker Visits Scenes of Mass Killings; "Concern" Responds to Ukrainian Humanitarian Crisis; From Tesla to Twitter: Elon Musk's New Investment. Aired 9-10a ET
Aired April 04, 2022 - 09:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JULIA CHATTERLEY, CNN HOST, FIRST MOVE: --I'm going to just warn you. The images you're going to see are extremely distressing. One after another
what appears to be execution star killings carried out before the Russian retreat?
People appear to have been left where they fell somewhere in streets, others in places like gardens. The mayor, who you'll hear from shortly,
said a lot of the victims were the elderly. He described Russian troops are carrying out some kind of safari in Ukraine.
Among the horrifying sights at least 20 men lying face down on the ground, some with their hands tied behind their backs President Zelenskyy calling
those scenes genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Indeed, this is genocide the elimination of the whole nation and the people. We are the citizens of
Ukraine. We have more than 100 nationalities. This is about the destruction and extermination of all these nationalities. We are the citizens of
Ukraine, and we don't want to be subdued to the policy of Russian Federation. This is the reason we are being destroyed and exterminated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: These images are drawing international condemnation and calls for even tougher sanctions on Russia. U.S. Secretary of State Antony
Blinken described seeing such images as a punch to the gut. The European Union says it's urgently working on more sanctions. Russia, though, is
denying any involvement claiming the footage is fake.
I can tell you what CNN teams saw with their own eyes were not fake. There were at least a dozen people in body bags as you can see here witnessed
firsthand by our Senior International Correspondent Fred Pleitgen.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As Russian forces retreat from the area north of Kyiv in their wake scenes of
utter destruction, whole blocks of houses flattened Ukrainian authorities saying they believe dead bodies are still lying underneath.
But here the dead also lay in the open. Ukrainian National Police showed us this mass grave in Bucha saying they believed up to 150 civilians might be
buried here, but no one knows the exact number people killed while the Russian army occupied this town.
This is what it looks like when the hope is crushed. Vladimir has been searching for his younger brother Dmitry. Now he's convinced Dmitry lies
here, even though he can't be 100 percent sure the neighbor accompanying him with strong words for the Russians. Why do you hate us so much? She
asks, since the 1930s you've been abusing Ukraine.
You just want to destroy us. You want us gone? But we will be everything will be OK. I believe it. Video from Bucha shows bodies in the streets
after Russian forces left the area. Some images even show bodies with hands tied behind their backs.
The Russian Defense Ministry denies killing civilians and claims images of dead civilians are "Fake". But we met a family just returning to their
house in - which they say was occupied by Russian soldiers. They show us the body of a dead man in civilian clothes they had found in the backyard,
his hands and feet tied with severe bruises and a shell casing still laying nearby.
Russia's military appears to have suffered heavy losses before being driven out of the area around Kyiv. This column of armored vehicles in Bucha
PLEITGEN (on camera): The way the Ukrainians tell us is that the Russians were trying to go towards Kyiv and they were then intercepted by Ukrainian
drones, artillery and also the Javelin anti-tank weapons. It's not clear how many Russians were killed here, but they say many were and others fled
PLEITGEN (voice over): A national police officer says the Russian troops were simply too arrogant. They thought they could drive on the streets and
just go through he says that they would be greeted as though it's alright. Maybe they think it is normal to drive around - to destroy buildings and to
mock people. But our people didn't allow it.
And now it appears all the Russians have withdrawn from here. Ukraine says it is now in full control of the entire region around Kyiv. But it is only
now that the full extent of the civilian suffering is truly coming to light.
CHATTERLEY: And a short time ago with a Mayor of Bucha describe the scenes to my colleague Brianna Keilar.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANATOLY FEDORUK, MAYOR OF BUCHA, UKRAINE: There are different kinds of people and throughout many children, many teenagers, these were children.
They pose no threat to the Russian troops of Russia as a whole. They did pose absolutely no danger, and it was impossible not to see that they were
children not to see that a mother is carrying a child.
BRIANNA KEILAR, CNN HOST: Mayor, how worried is you that Bucha is just the beginning that we're going to be seeing this in other towns and cities?
FEDORUK: So based on what we have seen, what the occupiers what the Russian occupiers have done here, I think we can expect them to see the same
picture on the entire territory from Kyiv to Mariupol and Kherson.
This will happen everywhere where the Russian occupier has stepped in, and they cannot make progress militarily. The Ukrainian Armed Forces stopped
them. So they are torturing civilians. And this is how they are performing. This is the so called de-nazification that the Russian President Putin
mentioned. But it's actually dehumanization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: The Mayor of Bucha speaking there. Now as Russia concentrates its operations in the East and South of Ukraine, the key Port City of
Odessa suffered airstrikes overnight. It follows attacks on the cities or facilities on Sunday. Ed Lavandera joins us now from Odessa. Just described
to assault the last couple of days have been like.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, many people have been here for several days now in the Port City of Odessa. And many people have told
us that even though they've been enjoying some relative calm for days and days that they all knew that could change in a minute. And that's what has
happened exactly in the last 24 hours.
LAVANDERA (voice over): The missiles exploded in a startling violent barrage, about six strikes split up the sky. Russian military officials say
the attack on Odessa was launched from the sea and land using high precision missiles.
The massive plumes of black swirling smoke covered much of the city of 1 million people. The strikes landed in a largely industrial area, destroying
an oil refinery and fuel storage facilities. Multiple airstrikes hit the Port City of Odessa here in Southern Ukraine just before sunrise Sunday
morning. There were no air raid sirens that went off before the blast and the explosions could be felt and seen from miles away.
Ukrainian officials say there were no injuries but Tatiana Gerasim says the explosions through her from the chair she was sleeping in and window glass
shattered all over her. Tatiana volunteers in this building late into the night cooking meals for Ukrainian soldiers. In recent days, she says
reconnaissance drones were flying over the fuel storage facility. Two other residents told us they saw the drones as well.
TATIANA GERASIM, ODESSA RESIDENT: The drones were flying around and they knew they were up to something and could move the depot and we've been
thinking where we could hide in case something happens.
LAVANDERA (on camera): A small pocket of apartment buildings in homes sit just across the street from the bombing site. Families stood outside their
homes under the clouds of dark smoke. Watching flames shoot up into the air. The explosions shattered windows and any remaining sense of security
these residents had left.
GERASIM: Of course I'm scared and now they're hitting everywhere. They're doing it in all cities. We know it. We see it.
LAVANDERA (voice over): The attack on Odessa follows similar pattern Russian forces have carried out for weeks hitting fuel storage facilities
across the country it claims are supplying their Ukrainian military.
But if the Odessa strike is a precise attack, Ukrainian officials say the strikes hours later in the neighboring City of Mykolaiv have no rhyme or
reason and are designed to harass and panic civilians. Despite being this close to the bombing and with tears in her eyes, Tatiana Gerasim says she
refuses to leave Ukraine. She tells me these bastards won't get away with it.
LAVANDERA: Now regional Ukrainian military officials say in that both rounds of airstrikes no one was killed only one person was injured and that
those specific targets of the oil refinery and fuel storage facilities were damaged.
It has been quiet here today. But that does not ease the tension that so many people here in the city have felt Julia because they continue to watch
A, what has unfolded there in north of Kyiv, and what they have seen and the atrocities that we are seeing their emerged now that Russian forces
have evacuated that area?
And you know many people here simply can't help but wonder if the fight now resumes into the East and continues to push further south towards places
like Odessa they wonder what is coming to them Julia.
CHATTERLEY: Living in fear. Ed Lavandera stays safe please and thank you for that report. OK straight ahead, describing the indescribable Ukrainian
Parliament Member Oleksiy Goncharenko has seen firsthand the enormity of the atrocities being carried out against his people. He says the West to
stop bankrolling the mass slaughter of innocents. He joins us after the break.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back! Now despite the ongoing threat of war in Ukraine, tens of thousands of people are returning to Ukraine from Poland, CNN's
Kyung Lah spoke with refugees in Warsaw to find out why.
KYUNG LAH, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): In some ways we've almost become accustomed to these images because they are now so
common almost six weeks into the war. Ukrainians carrying everything they own and bags that they can roll their babies in tow, except they are not
fleeing to safety.
We are on a platform a bus platform in Warsaw, Poland and what you are looking at are Ukrainian refugees here in Poland. But they are not running
from the war. They are returning to Ukraine.
LAH (voice over): At the bus station in Warsaw, Poland platform is hacked but not with people arriving from Ukraine. They're heading back reality of
life as a refugee more unbearable than war. Catharina Volk (ph) says after two weeks she's returning to Kyiv.
LAH (on camera): What is it like trying to live away from home all this time?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So bad? Because you don't know what was wrong with your relatives with your family.
LAH (on camera): It's not a permanent way to live.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
LAH: The Polish government says 2.5 million Ukrainians have come in since the war began. As of this weekend, 442,000 have gone from Poland back to
Ukraine. Housing is a problem as Poland struggles to absorb the influx of women children and the elderly.
Poland's residents have welcomed Ukrainian families into their homes, but living on strange floors and out of bags can only go on for so long. Poland
allows Ukrainians to work and collect government assistance.
LAH: But there's the red tape standing in long lines with fellow war refugees to file the proper papers. And then there's childcare and
schooling, trying to raise kids with new language and cultural barriers. Poland wants to help but nearly six weeks into this war, the signs of
strain are getting harder to ignore.
RAFAL TRZASKOWSKI, WARSAW, POLAND MAYOR: The Polish people will welcome Ukrainians whatever happens because they are fighting for our freedom. And
we do understand that but of course, there is a certain limit human limit what we can do.
LAH (on camera): When you say you're at capacity what do you mean?
TRZASKOWSKI: The population of my city has grown almost by a 20 percent in a month? So of course it puts an enormous strain on the city on its
services, and we are doing our best. We are welcoming everyone who needs help but you know improvisation has to end.
LAH (on camera): Some of the stories that we're hearing from these passengers who are heading back into Ukraine, a pregnant woman who says
that she does not want to give birth in Poland alone that her husband has remained in Ukraine to fight in the war.
She wants to be with him. Another woman who owns a business, who says her heart is shattered into a million pieces being here in Poland. She plans to
try to pick up her life in Ukraine. This bus to Lviv has just pulled up. It's going to be leaving in minutes. Kyung Lah, CNN, Warsaw Poland.
CHATTERLEY: Now Ukrainian lawmakers hope pictures of the atrocities we were just discussing in cities like Bucha will further galvanize global opinion
against Russia and force the West to do more to support Ukraine.
Oleksiy Goncharenko is a Member of the Ukrainian Parliament. He visited the City of Bucha over the weekend and documented the horrors there in a series
of videos shared on social media. Some of the images we must warn you are graphic. He agrees with President Zelenskyy that what's happening in his
country is genocide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN LAWMAKER: You see behind me, the common grave for more than 20 people, local citizens who were killed by Russian
troops here. And that is one of graves there are more here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: We're hoping we're going to be able to speak to him in just a few moments time. Now to another story Margaryta Zatuchna was just 18
months old when she played Ukraine with her family when the Nazis invaded Kharkiv. Now at 82-years-old, she's been forced away from her home yet
again, this time because of Vladimir Putin's war. Salma Abdelaziz has her story.
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This is the moment Margaryta Zatuchna says she finally felt safe, welcomed by her Jewish
community in Kharkiv.
MARGARYTA ZATUCHNA, FLED KHARKIV, UKRAINE: I am presented with so good flowers and because it smells very well.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): We sat down to hear the story from twice a survivor.
ZATUCHNA: I was born in 1940 and when the war with Germany began, I was only one year and a half.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): In 1941, her family fled their home and her Kharkiv were Nazis murdered an estimated 16,000 Jews. She later returned, grew up
and grew old and peacetime. That is until Russian troops invaded.
Bombing in besieging parties, she has leveled off quite delicious there was no water or power. We couldn't buy food. It was impossible to live she
says. There was explosion after explosion a real not evens a monument that honors the city's Holocaust victims escaped Moscow's so called de-
But Margaryta stayed to care for her sick husband Valarie as long as she could. And then an explosion blew out all our windows she says after that
shock he grew weaker and weaker. After nearly a month of war, Valarie passed away. His body still lives in a morgue. There are no funerals
because of the fighting.
Now at age 82 the Holocaust survivor knew it was time to go packed only what she could carry and fled her birthplace.
ZATUCHNA: It is very difficult when my beautiful town - when I lived all my life is destroyed.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): A driver picked up Margarita in this vehicle, damaged in an earlier attack. For two days, they traveled out of Kharkiv
and across dangerous territory so Lviv.
ZATUCHNA: It is really hard road.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): From there she boarded an ambulance and was ferried into Poland. We were tracking her evacuation and met her at the border
ABDELAZIZ (on camera): Hi, welcome to Poland.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): But Margarita still has further to go. She wants to join her brother in New Jersey.
ZATUCHNA: I was not scared.
ABDELAZIZ (on camera): Where is this bravery from?
ZATUCHNA: It comes it comes along to us.
ABDELAZIZ (voice over): Margarita hopes to return to bury her husband of 40 years and see her beloved city at peace again. Salma Abdelaziz, CNN Krakow.
CHATTERLEY: What a beautiful smile hope. Russia's alleged war crimes in Bucha, another Ukrainian town during international outreach with European
leaders calling for further sanctions on Moscow.
Lithuania's Foreign Minister tweeted and he caught my eye. Russian army of mass murderers retreat from Bucha reveals the full scale of atrocities; we
can only imagine what is going on in other occupied territories. No other way around.
Buying oil and gas is financing war crimes. Dear EU friends pull the plug. Don't be an accomplice. Nic Robertson joins us now from Brussels, Nic,
Lithuania, of course announcing over the weekend. They're not going to take any more energy from Russia.
The question is does what we saw this weekend change anything in the minds of those EU members that do continue to pay for oil and gas?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It's certainly galvanizing a lot of attention and focus on the issue. Latvia, for example,
is in an entirely different position to Lithuania is not in a position to cut off its gas supplies from Russia at the moment.
But we've heard from the French president saying that coal and oil supply should be cut from Russia. Notably, he didn't mention gas. We've heard a
senior German banker today saying that if gas supplies from Russia workout, then Germany would go into recession.
We've heard from Charles Michel, the European Council President saying that sanctions and support would soon be coming for Ukraine. More sanctions, a
fifth round of sanctions, but to get that round of sanctions, and for them to be tough as some European leaders wants, consensus has to be found.
And the indications are at the moment, that consensus for really hard, tough hitting sanctions to cut off. And that would include, of course,
cutting off energy supplies from Russia, are too tough pill for many European nations to want to swallow.
That's how it appears at the moment. But it does feel that that what has happened, these war claims that have been committed are a galvanizing
We've heard from Ursula von der Leyen, the European Commission President just speaking, not long ago, saying that there would be support for
investigations for Ukrainians to do investigations and help bring the perpetrators to justice through international courts.
This is all good in the terms of what Ukraine wants in the distant future. But what Ukraine needs and says it needs today is an urgent way of forcing
Russia to recalibrate and this week will be a decisive week in that context for European leaders to see if they can find further unanimity.
It's not clear at this moment. But what is clear is there is a lot of energy for it. We've heard from the German foreign minister as well, the
French foreign minister, all saying the same thing, more sanctions, more sanctions. If the question is, what are they?
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and that's a great question. Well, Nic I know the Ukrainians are saying, look, we want full Oil Gas coal embargo a ban on
Russian vessels and cargoes. We know the Ukrainians are tracking the Russian vessels and a disconnection for all Russian banks from Swift.
It's only been partial, of course. And that's how these energy payments are being made. To your question, Nic, what else can they do? Because it feels
symbolic, does it perhaps galvanize greater cohesion of support around weaponry? A tank, for example as was a topic of discussion over the
weekend, anti-aircraft missiles more?
ROBERTSON: I think it's a focus on every element of assistance for Ukraine. But I think it's also evidence of the immediacy of that need, certainly the
military support and the continuing humanitarian support, we've heard that we've heard the British Prime Minister announced that in a statement.
But it is the sanctions that really Ukraine feels that can by the deepest be the toughest, as you say, banks like Gazprombank, which is the conduit
as you say for payments for Russian energy supplies had been without sanctions as - bank another big bank in Russia.
ROBERTSON: And there was this sort of delicate balance between the United what the United States and some of the sort of bigger hawks, if you will,
on what could be sanctioned and affect Russia immediately in a tough way.
The Hawks were pushing for Russia to be of all its banks to be taken out of the Swift mechanism. That didn't happen. It was some of the smaller banks.
And the Polish Prime Minister just last week said that his assessment is that Russia thinks that it's withstanding the sanctions.
That's why it took the move late last week to say if energy supplies weren't paid for in rubles, then it was then President Putin was implying
that he would cut those energy supplies.
But interestingly, Secretary of State Antony Blinken over the weekend, said that he thought that Russia is sort of balancing the dollar against the
ruble, keeping the value of the ruble up was a construct that couldn't stand the test of time.
But the reality for the Russian forces is they don't need huge amounts of time for the military advances they want to take on the ground. So they
only have to fudge over a relatively short period, hence the Ukrainians understanding of the need for that immediacy.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, and the reality is for the Ukrainian people, every second counts. Nic Robertson, thank you so much for your assessment. As always,
we're back after this, stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Ukrainian lawmakers are hoping pictures of the atrocities in cities like Bucha will further galvanize global opinion against Russia and
forced the West to do more to support Ukraine.
As I mentioned earlier, Oleksiy Goncharenko is a member of the Ukrainian parliament. He visited The City of Bucha over the weekend and documented
the horrors - there in a series of videos shared on social media. Again some of the images we must warn you are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GONCHARENKO: You see behind me, the common grave for more than 20 people, local citizens were killed by Russian troops here. And that is one of
graves. There are more here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: Oleksiy Goncharenko was also recently eye witnessed to the destruction in Kharkiv, Mykolaiv and other cities. Today we find him in
western Ukraine, and he joins me now Oleksiy, thank you so much for making time for us.
CHATTERLEY: Just describe what it was like being in Bucha over the weekend?
GONCHARENKO: Is a real horror, when you're just entering, there are beautiful town what it was before Russian invasion. And now it is like
absolutely destroyed, with the bodies on the streets, with the bodies in the cars. And for one month, they are in these cars.
And this is the first were shouted then smashed by Russian tanks. It's awful. I met a couple, which you saw, like Russian troops should just to
hold near their home, a private house, to people. And then in the night, they took their bodies and buried them.
They didn't know them, but they buried them in their private garden. So there are vegetables there and are near to graves. And a lot of such things
I saw women killed.
What the most awful I saw body have burned in the vehicle boy or girl, the child I don't know, maybe six, seven years old. It's awful. It's hard to
explain that's a real massacre. And that's a real genocide, against Ukrainians from Russian troops.
CHATTERLEY: I mean you're talking about burned bodies of children. You showed us images of mass graves. There are other pictures that we've seen
of people tied up and shocked, executed. Oleksiy, as you said, you believe this is genocide. People need to understand this is genocide in your mind.
GONCHARENKO: Absolutely, because they're killing these people. All of them are civilians. Yes, more you can find on my Twitter and see by your own
eyes. And all of them, again, are civilians. And there was no military target to kill these people. But they killed them.
And the only reason for this was that there were pro Ukrainian and they had Ukrainian passport. And it is genocide by all determinations and terms,
this is genocide and they should pay for this, because it's an awful war crimes committed in the 21st century, just in the middle of Europe.
CHATTERLEY: Oleksiy, the Russian Defense Ministry said over the weekend, that these videos, these images are fake, that they said the suggestion
that war crimes are taking places in their words provocation. What do you make of that?
GONCHARENKO: Middle line, I mean, every day, 24 hours per day, seven days per week, they are lying. I just want to remind you like they were telling
for one year that they were not preparing an attack on Ukraine. But that was just a military training.
And then everybody saw what was it, and then they lied so many times. So either you can go to Human Rights Watch, which is very respectful human
You can see on the first page, what they're read what they're written about, about Ukraine, about sexual crimes against women, about raping about
killings, with their facts, with photos with names with absolutely everything. I invite all international journalists and dozens of them are
now in your opinion Bucha in Hostomel.
I invite and Ukraine officially invited prospective prosecutors from international criminal court to this area just to find all her guilty in
these awful things because it was not Putin himself, who was killing this people, know that was the Russian soldiers and officers and they should pay
And speaking about their officials, we should again align all the time, and they're also responsible they are war criminals. And like it was after
Second World War against German Nazis, there was a Nuremberg Tribunal.
Now it should be Mariupol Tribunal or Bucha Tribunal against these criminals, war criminals, Putin and all those who are around him.
CHATTERLEY: Oleksiy, you understand this from a human perspective, from a tragic, heartbreaking Ukrainian perspective. But also you're a politician
and you understand the politics and you made a direct plea to the German Chancellor on social media over the weekend.
CHATTERLEY: And this is a country that continues to pay for Russian gas and oil like many other nations, many other EU nations. What's your message to
GONCHARENKO: Yes, the message is clear. In each gallon of Russian oil, there is Ukrainian blood. In each cubic meter of Russian gas, there is
Ukrainian blood, is it normal for civilized countries to buy blood of innocent people and to pay for this.
So I address to Germans to French and to their companies to stop work in Russian Federation, stop paying taxes in their budget. And stop that is the
most important stop buying Russian oil and gas, because Russia is just a big guest station.
And without money from oil and gas, which makes two thirds of their exports and one half of their revenues have stayed budget. They just could not
afford this war. They just could not continue this genocide. So I addressed to them.
And there are very strange things. For example, Germany, refused to sell to Ukraine 100 armored vehicles, and now they are ready to pay for utilizing
this. So they are ready to pay from state budget to utilize the vehicles and Ukraine asked to sell it to us.
And they refused. I can't find words; I can't understand this, absolutely because Ukraine is fighting not only for ourselves, but for the whole free
world. If Putin would not be stopped here, and now he will go further, it will be like the Second World War; Hitler was not stopped at time. And the
catastrophe was awful. The same can win this time. So we should make lessons from history.
CHATTERLEY: I think you said it in every barrel of oil is Ukrainian blood. Oleksiy, how hopeful are you that peace can be found that Putin can't be
GONCHARENKO: No, he cannot be trusted. I don't believe to say your truth in peace negotiations, we will try our best. Because if there is one chance
for a million to prevent new Bucha and European and to save thousands of people in Mariupol, who are suffering right now.
And we for the moment just didn't know what's - don't know what's happening there. It's probably even more awful than Bucha because the cities are in
10 times bigger than it was Bucha - Irpin.
So if there is one chance from - we need to try our best. But to say your truth, I don't believe Putin and I don't believe he's ready to stop the
war. He only can make he can be made to stop the work. So we need to press at him and to cut his financing and to cut all trade with Russia. And that
can change the situation and stop these absolutely barbaric things.
CHATTERLEY: Oleksiy, thank you for joining us. Stay safe, please. And thank you for doing what you're doing and sharing the devastation with us.
GONCHARENKO: Thank you very much for covering.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you.
GONCHARENKO: Thank you very much - possibility to address to people thank you.
CHATTERLEY: Thank you. OK, still to come, getting aid to the most vulnerable still in Ukraine. We speak to the Head of Concern Worldwide
about their efforts. Stay with us.
CHATTERLEY: Welcome back and more evidence of alleged war crimes in Ukraine. The Mayor of Bucha accusing Russian troops of carrying out a kind
of safari in the country. As I keep warning you.
The images you're about to see are extremely distressing. One after another what appears to be execution style killings carrying out before the Russian
retreat? Bodies appear to have been left where they found beside city streets and in back gardens.
Also in Ukraine, the Red Cross says efforts to help people in Mariupol have failed yet again, because of the violence. The agency has been trying to
enter the city since Saturday to bring aid and help civilians get away.
The U.N. says the war has displaced more than 10 million people forcing them to relocate within Ukraine or abroad. As the humanitarian crisis in
Ukraine grows, our next guest understands the challenges of getting aid to the most vulnerable more than most.
Joining us now is Ros O'Sullivan. He's the Head of the Emergency Operations for concern worldwide, Ros, great to have you on the show with us. We're
talking about a quarter of the population on the move just to give people a sense of the scale of the response that's required.
And I know when you looked at the situation and the surrounding nations, you decided actually the people in Ukraine need your support most of all.
ROS O'SULLIVAN, HEAD OF EMERGENCY OPERATIONS, CONCERN WORLDWIDE: Good morning, Julia. And it's really, really nice to be with you today. Yes,
absolutely, we have been down in the region now for over five weeks, and did take a very, very hard look at the neighboring countries, the countries
bordering Ukraine in terms of the outpouring of people from Ukraine.
And felt very quickly that in terms of who was arriving out of Ukraine, at that time, the first wave of people leaving that the countries were coping
reasonably well, in terms of receiving them and supporting them, and also the profile of these people that were leaving.
At that time, we're largely not staying in the neighboring countries, we're continuing on continuing on to third countries. So it was felt that really
you know 4.1 million people have now left Ukraine.
But there's an estimated 7 million people inside Ukraine on the move. And a further upwards of 12 million people who are stranded in affected areas,
which will likely move if and when they can, like Mariupol that you just described.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I mean, it's astonishing numbers in the space of what just five weeks. Talk to me about how you're providing support.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you. Well along with our European alliance partners, I mean, so no, no agency can do this alone. This is huge by any stage. But
along with our alliance partners from Germany and Italy and the Czech Republic and France, we're assisting people in a number of regions inside
central and western Ukraine, supporting them with a combination of food and non-food packages, typical family hygiene items, as well as items for
Support has also been provided to informal accommodation centers, where these people are staying. There are literally hundreds of these scattered
throughout Central and Western Ukraine.
And we're supporting them with laundry facilities with showers with toilets with bedding, and some very, very specific items of clothing that are not
currently found locally like underwear and socks.
To give you a kind of idea I visited a secondary school in a rural in a rural village of less than 100 people normally living in that area. And in
that secondary school bedded down in the basketball arena in the basketball area, where 70 people that were displaced.
And there were you know, using the facilities of one toilet and one shower, and these are areas where we can support the local authorities and the
local health self-help groups with, in terms of improving the lot for these people.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, I mean, there's so many challenges. I know you're also targeting people for cash payments to just so that they have that extra
level of security if they are moving around and can pay for things themselves.
How do you keep your people safe, because I just deliberately mentioned the story of what the Red Cross is saying, and they simply can't get people out
of Mariupol? And these are specifically sort of devastated areas.
But to your point, there's a danger of confusion between military and humanitarian supplies and, and trying to ensure your people are safe and
actually able to get to people where they're needed.
O'SULLIVAN: Well, I mean, currently, in most of Western Ukraine, access is still relatively open, we are able to access that part of the country from
a number of the neighboring countries, including Poland and Romania.
We manage risk in Ukraine the same way as we would manage risk the world over. And that is by looking at what is happening and making sure that our
staff is, are kept well informed, and that we are, you know, very, very aware of, of what is going on around us.
I mean, at the end of the day as humanitarian aid workers, we have to work on the basis that we are not a threat to anybody, and therefore should not
be seen as a threat by anybody.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, we hope. Ross, you mentioned something that I think is very important to you. Describe the profile of those that have left Ukraine
so far. And it seems like they've got other places to go on to.
Perhaps they had an element of resources available to allow them to move. They had people, family, friends, whatever in different countries that
perhaps they could go to. You said something recently to the Irish Defense Committee, and that also caught my attention.
And that was that for the next wave of refugees, it's a case of simply having to leave no matter what their situation and what they go on to, in
many ways their situation is, is worse.
O'SULLIVAN: Their situation is very, very different indeed. I mean, without doubt, the vast majority of people that have been able to leave Ukraine so
far were able to leave Ukraine. They had some resources, and in many cases had family or friends are somewhere to go.
Inside Ukraine right now, people are moving from east to the central regions into the West. They are moving as far as they feel they have to go
to find safety, security protection, and they don't want to leave the country.
They're not planning to leave the country. And these families are now - the profile of their intergenerational families, they have very young children;
they have elders with them, who have very, very, very specific needs. And these people will not leave the country unless they absolutely have to.
CHATTERLEY: Yes, it emphasizes the point about the time needed to stop this somehow before those people are forced to leave to. As you mentioned, there
are multiple NGOs, bodies, donations working and trying to provide support here.
Ros was the danger that that system that's been set up so far becomes overwhelmed by sheer scale numbers over such a short period of time. And
how can that are best prevented?
O'SULLIVAN: I think there are two things here, Julia. I mean, one is what is required now and to the coming months in Ukraine. I mean, the needs are
absolutely astronomical. You're talking about as I say, I'm Irish and I've been recently referring to the numbers of people on the move, inside and
outside Ukraine are twice the population of my own country.
I mean, it's just staggering what we're talking about. And even if things were to improve tomorrow, and what I mean by that is, if there was a
cessation and hostilities, if there was a ceasefire, if the conflict suddenly stopped, it will be months, if not years before these people can
return to their former lives.
And so there is a huge amount of support they need both now, and through the coming weeks and months. And all I can say is that the generosity of
the people in the United States and around the world has shown incredible kinship, and, you know, and support for the Ukrainian people.
And this has to continue, yet, having said that, there are crises all around the world that don't just disappear when Ukraine as suddenly
happened. Afghanistan, the Horn of Africa, to name just two you know, there is there is hunger, there was famine, there is crisis, there is war, there
And one of the big worries we have is that, you know, the focus on Ukraine, albeit important necessarily and fully, fully validated must not come at
the expense of what is going on in the rest of the world.
CHATTERLEY: Such an important point. It must be focused upon but we can't forget or allow other big issues to be overshadowed, too. Thank you for the
reminder. And Ross, thank you for the work you and your team are doing. Stay safe, please. Ros O'Sullivan, Head of Emergency Operations for concern
worldwide, sir, thank you.
O'SULLIVAN: Thank you, Julia.
CHATTERLEY: OK, let me bring you up to speed with some of the other stories making headlines around the world. Shanghai has started testing all 25
million of its residents for COVID-19.
As cases surge thousands of health care workers and military personnel from other parts of China are helping with the campaign. They've also been
enforcing tough measures such as separating infected children from their parents and in Sri Lanka, a move to stabilize the government amid the worst
economic crisis in decades.
Foreign ministers were sworn in earlier today after 26 cabinet ministers resigned. The prime minister and his brother the president remain in
office. Hungary's populist Prime Minister has clinched a fourth consecutive term in office after a surprise landslide victory on Sunday.
Forecasts suggested a much closer race. Viktor Orban touted as a win against his liberal opponents, the European Union and Ukrainian President
The Hungarian leader has long supported Russia and was congratulated by the Kremlin after his victory. OK, still ahead the American music industries
big night hitting a serious note. The biggest stars hearing from Ukrainian President Zelenskyy his plea tell the story of Ukraine through music,
that's just ahead.
CHATTERLEY: JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon warning investors of unpredictable outcomes if the war in Ukraine escalates. Diamond saying in his annual
letter to shareholders "The war in Ukraine and sanctions on Russia at a minimum will slow the global economy and it could easily get worse".
And he says many more sanctions could be added which could dramatically and unpredictably increase their effect. Despite the risks, Dimon says
sanctions against Moscow should be increased.
And global stock markets are still seeing a period of relative calm despite the war as uncertainties U.S. markets and European stocks are mostly high
in the session today, all shop 13 percent for last week lending some support to equities. Twitter, a big winner in today's session. One of the
site's most popular and controversial influences, Elon Musk has disclosed a more than 9 percent passive stake in the company.
Musk did that recently say on Twitter that he was willing at Twitter alternative citing what he calls free speech concerns. And finally, it was
a night of both sounds and sadness at the last night's Grammy Awards in Las Vegas.
The music industry's biggest stars are applauding musical excellence and hearing a special plea from Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY: Our musicians wear body armor instead of tuxedo they seem to the wounded in hospitals, even to those who can't hear them, but the music will
break through anyway. We defend our freedom to live to love to sound on our land. We are fighting Russia, which brings horrible silence with its bombs
the dead silence feel the silence with your music pillar today to tell our story.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHATTERLEY: There was also celebration to singer and bandleader Jon Batiste was the biggest Grammy winner taking him five awards, including best album
Pop Sensation. Olivia Rodrigo won three awards, including Best New Artist and Best Pop Vocal Album, and R&B duo Silk Sonic took home the Record of
the Year and Best Song.
So celebrations and sadness, that's it for the show, stay with CNN. "Connect the World" with Becky Anderson is up next.